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Rouserman
07-04-2006, 02:39 PM
hey guys,

gettin ready to pull the head and box up my new 50 trim hybrid from turbonetics and send it back to them. my turbo blew the seals at less than 100 miles! ive checked the brand new oil lines that were installed with the hybrid and they are fine, i ran the car with the oil return removed to make sure the turbo was flowing the oil, it was, has anyone else had this problem or did i just get seom bad luck? BTW i took proper precautions in spin down time after every drive.
let me know
rouser

Stinkbox
07-04-2006, 03:05 PM
my friend blew a turbo on a project car cause he had tape on the end of the intercooler and forgot to take it off before he put the pipes on and surged his turbo to death.

Rouserman
07-04-2006, 03:12 PM
wow, no tape here, ive never heard of that before

Will Martin
07-04-2006, 03:15 PM
my friend blew a turbo on a project car cause he had tape on the end of the intercooler and forgot to take it off before he put the pipes on and surged his turbo to death.

Few will laugh at this but I've heard of rags being left in pipes several times. I know because I did it once myself but caught it. lol

Sounds like you just got a bad turbo, return it under warranty.

87glhs232
07-04-2006, 06:40 PM
Were you using an aftermarket SS braided line kit?

turbovanmanČ
07-04-2006, 08:59 PM
Is your oil return hose plugged? were you using silicone or regular heater hose? high volume oil pump? Was your old turbo blown the same way or did you just upgrade? did you change the oil after you replaced the head gasket?

Rouserman
07-04-2006, 11:10 PM
used ss new lines, high volume pump, engine is a fresh rebuild, same miles as turbo, oil was changed several times in that 1st 100 miles

87glhs232
07-05-2006, 12:43 AM
TU or FWD lines?

turbovanmanČ
07-05-2006, 01:40 AM
Its probably the HV pump, Chris has found they tend to blow out the seals unless you put a restrictor inline to reduce the amount of flow.

Why did you change the oil so much?

2.216VTurbo
07-05-2006, 02:01 AM
I had a Turbonetics unit go out at less than 400 miles once. If you have checked all the obvious possible causes, sometimes shyte just happens:confused:

Rouserman
07-05-2006, 02:40 PM
oil was changed after intial start, after the rings seated, then at 50, then at 100, gotta make sure you get all the left overs from the rebuild, its cheaper to use a bit more oil now then to have to tear it back down ya know ;)

Rouserman
07-06-2006, 12:52 AM
TU or FWD lines?
lines were from fwd

Rouserman
07-06-2006, 12:54 AM
Its probably the HV pump, Chris has found they tend to blow out the seals unless you put a restrictor inline to reduce the amount of flow.


how much of a rerstriction is needed? i REALLY dont feel like pulling this head again...anyone got a description of what they used for a restrictor??
later

csxtra
07-07-2006, 10:02 AM
There are 2 sources for restrictors:
1. http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ATP-OIL-022&Category_Code=OIL
or (more TD price friendly)
2. www.mcmaster.com - Part #2712T44 (.063 inch orifice) - $7.43

Hope this helps,
Warren

turbovanmanČ
07-07-2006, 12:51 PM
how much of a rerstriction is needed? i REALLY dont feel like pulling this head again...anyone got a description of what they used for a restrictor??
later

You can phone Chris or Turbonetics or just post up a thread. Actually, don't call Turbonetics, lol, :eyebrows:

DodgeZ
07-07-2006, 01:14 PM
Did your turbo have a filter on?

Rouserman
07-07-2006, 02:48 PM
Did your turbo have a filter on?
hey dude,
no, i didnt have an inline oil filter on it, but if youre asking if i was running an air filter then yes, i was running a k&n.

DodgeZ
07-07-2006, 04:31 PM
hey dude,
no, i didnt have an inline oil filter on it, but if youre asking if i was running an air filter then yes, i was running a k&n.

Show Off's turbonetics s60 had a filter on the center section. You screw your stock oil feed line into it. It is a custom center section just for this thing. The filter is in the center section just a tad bit of it sticks up. Looks just like the stock oil fitting on a stock turbo.

Rouserman
07-07-2006, 10:42 PM
Show Off's turbonetics s60 had a filter on the center section. You screw your stock oil feed line into it. It is a custom center section just for this thing. The filter is in the center section just a tad bit of it sticks up. Looks just like the stock oil fitting on a stock turbo.

hmm, dont really remember there being a filter there, although there very well could have been, although i think i would have noticed it. but what are you implying about the filter? i ran the car with the return line off and the turbo was definitly flowing a good amount of oil through it. but if i dont have one on the new turbo, i will probably be going with some sort of an inline set up, just because the engine is so new and im a little afraid of some left overs in the oil passages finding there way into the turbo.

DodgeZ
07-07-2006, 11:24 PM
hmm, dont really remember there being a filter there, although there very well could have been, although i think i would have noticed it. but what are you implying about the filter? i ran the car with the return line off and the turbo was definitly flowing a good amount of oil through it. but if i dont have one on the new turbo, i will probably be going with some sort of an inline set up, just because the engine is so new and im a little afraid of some left overs in the oil passages finding there way into the turbo.

To help with the need rerstriction turbovanman is talking about.


Here it is...
http://www.turboneticsinc.com/images/product/clampsfittings/20754.jpg

only the top part sticks out of the turbo.

cordes
07-07-2006, 11:38 PM
How much oil pressure would it take to break the seals? I thought that they could handle ~60PSI or so before you had to worry about that.

csxtra
07-08-2006, 12:08 AM
i will probably be going with some sort of an inline set up, just because the engine is so new and im a little afraid of some left overs in the oil passages finding there way into the turbo.

Since nobody wants to look in this thread for where to get the oil feed line restrictors, I'm not going to mention where you can get a great (cleanable) 10 micron inline filter for the oil feed line for a reasonable price ($31).

BTW, if you use the right inline filter, it cuts the flow from the HVP enough that a restrictor is not needed. I've got a HVP and aftermarket SS lines in my car and I had a new T3/T4 hybrid that was blowing smoke, and putting the inline filter on stopped the oil burning. That turbo has been running on a 12 second charger and blowing no smoke (with the $31 filter on it and no restrictor) for about a year now.

So cutting down the oil flow will probably fix your problem, which is most likely caused by a combination of the high volume pump and the aftermarket lines which are larger and flow more than the stock lines, so the extra oil is just pushing past the seals.

GLHSKEN
07-08-2006, 09:23 AM
^^^^^ Yea....

Directconnection
07-08-2006, 10:05 AM
To help with the need rerstriction turbovanman is talking about.


Here it is...
http://www.turboneticsinc.com/images/product/clampsfittings/20754.jpg

only the top part sticks out of the turbo.

My problem is why is it needed? I have heard of a few horror stories about those... but they were blamed anyways.

turbovanmanČ
07-08-2006, 11:31 AM
My problem is why is it needed? I have heard of a few horror stories about those... but they were blamed anyways.

Why is what needed? the restrictor or none at all?

Aries_Turbo
07-08-2006, 12:03 PM
Warren, where do you get this filter?

Also, how was your turbo smoking?

I ask cause my car smokes when you let it sit for a while idling.... if you start it cold and let it sit while warming up, a few min later it will be billowing smoke. there are fresh valve seals in the head, a good HG, good compression and it still smokes. it also smokes a little if you let off the gas and then hit the gas again... just a little puff. is this what yours was doing?

ok, back on topic. :)

Brian

csxtra
07-08-2006, 01:34 PM
Also, how was your turbo smoking?

Brian

It would smoke at warm idle, but it smoked like crazy after boosting (high RPM) and then going back to cruise or idle. When the RPM was high, the center section of the turbo would get too much oil and the excess would blow by the seals into the compressor and/or turbine housings.

I verified this by pulling the air output hose off of the turbo and running the car in the garage. At idle, no oil was in the compressor housing, but if I revved the motor to 3000+, oil would start to show up in the housing. After putting the filter on the feed line (with the 10 micron element installed), there was no oil, even if I revved it up to 5000+ rpm, and all smoking stopped (except for the tire smoking :thumb: ).


Warren, where do you get this filter?

I get mine overnighted from Cleveland...McMaster-Carr Industrial Supply (www.mcmaster.com). It is actually a "Mini Inline Hydraulic Oil filter", with a sintered bronze element, a Viton rubber seal (oil-proof). It is listed as flowing 12gpm with a 25-micron element in it, and it is good up to 400degF and 3000PSI (a little overkill for an inline oil feed line, but hey, at least it's not adding a potential failure point as long as you clean the element occasionally).

The filter (with 1/4" NPT female connections on each end) is part 9800K41, and is currently $22.19. That is with the 25-micron element installed. The 10-micron element is part 9800K11 (specify 10-micron-actually part 9800K21 ) and is currently $8.

I don't know if the 25-micron element will restrict the flow enough that a restrictor is not needed, but when I installed the filter with the 10-micron element, it fixed the oil-burning problem (plus it is theoretically safer for the turbo).

The filter can be installed without having to pull the head or turbo lines in the back, but you may have to do some "engineering" with NPT adapters to mount the filter to the oil distribution block.

Hope this helps,
Warren

EDIT: Oh Snap!!..I just found out on McMaster's page, you can get the filter with the 10-micron filter in it already for $22.19. Order part 9800K511. Although if you order the filter with the 25-micron element and the replacement 10-micron element it says it is in stock and will ship immediately, but when you order the filter with the 10-micron element installed it says "Usually ships within 1 week". So if you're not in a hurry, you can save $8.

Aries_Turbo
07-08-2006, 01:55 PM
Thanks Warren. Yup Im well acquainted with mcmaster-carr. :) I think im going to get the 25 micron and the restrictor and a 10 micron to experiment with.

Hopefully this works.

Brian

Directconnection
07-08-2006, 04:34 PM
Why is what needed? the restrictor or none at all?


Turbonetics supplied filter/restrictor thingy.

How many others have removed the turbonetics filter thingy?

The S is Silent
07-08-2006, 04:49 PM
I talked to Chris about the oil restrictor, and he says the hybrid turbos already have them. Mine did at least.

turbovanmanČ
07-09-2006, 03:34 PM
Turbonetics supplied filter/restrictor thingy.

How many others have removed the turbonetics filter thingy?


I kept mine but as I noticed the little screen in it. I did notice however that from Turbonetics, there was no sealer on the threads so I am glad I took it out to look at it. That mother would have leaked badly otherwise, :mad:

Aries_Turbo
07-15-2006, 01:06 AM
hey Warren,

I got my filter the other day and I also ordered their shortest section of Stainless braided hose with male 1/8npt ends on it. I had some 1/8 to 1/4 npt bushings that I used on the filter and now I can just install it inline with the original 1/8npt piece down by the oil dist block.... its the second connection. I just have to make some kind of bracket to hold the filter steady. it'll be on the car tomorrow.

quick question.... was your hvp the melling? mine is the melling from gary when I built my engine a few years ago. i think thats the questionable pump but i wanted to ask to be sure. heres the reason why... I didnt want to add the 10 micron filter to a standard pump setup and then not have enough flow. then again since im 99% sure its the turbo leaking, its prolly the hvp.

Thanks

Brian

puppet
07-16-2006, 10:46 PM
This seems like a good thread to ask about this. A little over a year ago I did the MP spring mod on a new melling pump. Funny thing about the spring that came out of the melling is that puppy was about twice as strong as the MP "high volume" (P3690944) spring I put in.

Unless I'm thinking wrong, more by-pass/relief spring pressure should equal higher oil pressure .... right? If that's the case I'm betting that melling makes one pump for us and they all are HV/P. I'd bet that you fellas having problems with the oil seeping passed the seals would see the proper V/P adjustment with the MP spring installed.

Aries_Turbo
07-17-2006, 08:14 AM
possibly unless the cavity that holds the spring on the MP pump is shorter than the melling. Id measure them both before installing the MP spring. Id also compare the pump assy itself too.

I installed my filter on sat.... the smoking is much less but it still lets out a little puff or two every now and again. im wondering if I should install the .060 restrictor as well as the 10 micron filter thats in there. having that many things inline makes me a little nervous. any comments?

Brian

Tony Hanna
07-17-2006, 08:42 AM
I installed my filter on sat.... the smoking is much less but it still lets out a little puff or two every now and again. im wondering if I should install the .060 restrictor as well as the 10 micron filter thats in there. having that many things inline makes me a little nervous. any comments?

Brian

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but your limiting factor in flow would be the most restrictive part right? Basically what I'm getting at is whichever part (filter or restrictor) flows the least, that will be the part that determines volume regardless of wether or not the other part is there. Think about it this way. If you have a 1" water pipe and reduce it down to 1/2", then go up to 3/4" and finally back up to 1" again is the 3/4" piece causing a restriction?
It seems to me it wouldn't be as long as the 1/2" piece is in the line.
I may be wrong though.

Aries_Turbo
07-17-2006, 09:04 AM
sorta.... the smallest point will restrict it the most but the restrictions add up to a certain extent... if youve already restricted the oil a little with the filter, the restrictor will restrict the already restricted flow... adding up to an even more restriction.... whew....

then again i think since the restrictor is such a greater restriction than the filter, the flow will slow, reducing the restrictive effect of the filter.

i think i just talked myself into trying the restrictor lol.

any others?

Brian

Tony Hanna
07-17-2006, 09:15 AM
Another thought, you could always unhook your oil return and let it drain into a bucket at idle for a few seconds to get an idea of volume. You could probably do that for a set time, measure the ammount of oil, and figure out if it's flowing enough. The math is beyond me, but surely somebody here would know.

cordes
07-17-2006, 10:28 AM
I would try and put a pressure gauge in line after the restrictions to see how they are affecting the pressure.

boostedblue
07-28-2006, 11:42 AM
Another thought, you could always unhook your oil return and let it drain into a bucket at idle for a few seconds to get an idea of volume. You could probably do that for a set time, measure the ammount of oil, and figure out if it's flowing enough. The math is beyond me, but surely somebody here would know.
Pipe fitters rock.Should have paid more attention in class, but wanted to be a engineer,any restriction filter or otherwise will slow down the total flow(volume) hence lower the pressure upstream of the seal , which allow less oil to leak over , ps maybe I should be sleeping but TM is more fun bb:thumb: sorry forgot looking for the screw/stud that bolts to bottom of water pump(on 88 and up TM,s) and the one piece alt adjusting brkt