Tubular K-frames now available

[turbo2point2]

Hi All,

I have decided to bring my tubular K-frames to market. This design is what is currently on my Shadow. I built a jig with the ability to produce both L-body and also P,G,J,K frames as well.

L-body and P,G,J,K frames are being introduced at $825.00. I can discount each piece $40 when I have 4 or more orders due to tubing quantity breaks. I currently have 2 orders.

The re-design of the stock k-frame allows you to shed some weight while improving anti-lift geometry and the addition of some much needed caster. It uses the 89-up dual pivot lower control arms. It retains the stock mounting points for the steering rack and can be fitted with the bobble strut mount for those running the 525 or 555/568, just need to let me know which trans you are using.

If you wish to retain stock geometry and opt only for weight savings and the use of the dual pivot control arms, I can do this as well. The jig allows me to setup the k-frame with many possibilities.

This design does not currently use a sway bar for those looking for running one. That said, I am working on that and I may have a solution to this very soon. Feel free to ask any questions you may have here.

2867228673

[CNH320]

Brian that is some awesome work right there... Wow! :clap:

So this is geared more towards a drag application without the sway bar provisions?

What's the weight difference?

[Spr-T-23]

wow dude thats perdy

["Top Fuel" Bender]

Sexy , nice Job

[GLHNSLHT2]

I'll be the 1st one to ask, what are the saving over a stock kframe? I think for most that sway bar provisions are a must.

I can't really say it'd be an issue but maybe for the street guys and road racers (although I'd think the drag racers might benefit too) maybe there should be a bolt in brace that ties the two front pivots together better. Just looking at the pics it looks like even the tubular kframe would still suffer a bit from the same flex the stocker does because the front mounts on the a-arm just kind of hang out there in space.

Just an observation and my opinion is all. Nice work.

[BadAssPerformance]

AWESOME WORK BRIAN! :hail:


What's the weight difference?


I'll be the 1st one to ask, what are the saving over a stock kframe?

I think Chris beat ya ;) But we ALL want to know, how light is it? :nod:

I agree on the no sway-bar thing, looks like an awesome piece for a drag car, but I still like cornering in my street car... but then again I like power windows too, LOL

[rbryant]

Nice job!

Can you move the control arm connections points upward?

That would improve the roll center as you lower the car (same thing as having a longer ball joint).
They can only be raised so much due to clearance issues on the car's frame rails but anything you can get would be a plus.

-Rich

[The Pope]

welding on a couple steel straps for a sway bar bushing, like what a muscle cars uses would be pretty easy. GLHNSLHT2's setup is a good one to look at. Very nice work. Any work on tube A arms?

---------- Post added at 02:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 PM ----------


Nice job!

Can you move the control arm connections points upward?

That would improve the roll center as you lower the car (same thing as having a longer ball joint).
They can only be raised so much due to clearance issues on the car's frame rails but anything you can get would be a plus.

-Rich

if he welded on a taller plate with 3 holes in it you could raise or lower it for rally or autocross. But a 2 hole plate with one set of raised holes would meet that pretty easy, just changing one weldment

[Reeves]

but I still like cornering in my street car...

CSX or Neon?

You going to autocross this year?

[BadAssPerformance]

CSX or Neon?

You going to autocross this year?

I meant the Z, once I get it together its gonna see a lot of street action this year :)

If we pull together an AutoX I'll probably use the T2 Shadow it handled awesome at BHF at SDAC-14 :nod:

[Reeves]

I meant the Z, once I get it together its gonna see a lot of street action this year :)

If we pull together an AutoX I'll probably use the T2 Shadow it handled awesome at BHF at SDAC-14 :nod:

Not going for Top Gun?

[BadAssPerformance]

Dunno

[turbo2point2]

I'll be the 1st one to ask, what are the saving over a stock kframe? I think for most that sway bar provisions are a must.

I can't really say it'd be an issue but maybe for the street guys and road racers (although I'd think the drag racers might benefit too) maybe there should be a bolt in brace that ties the two front pivots together better. Just looking at the pics it looks like even the tubular kframe would still suffer a bit from the same flex the stocker does because the front mounts on the a-arm just kind of hang out there in space.

Just an observation and my opinion is all. Nice work.

The k-frames weigh just over 13 lbs. when finished. For the L-body that would save approx. 14 lbs. for the others it saves approx 19 lbs.

The sway bar is high on the list to figure out. I will add any info as it becomes available.

A bar that you mentioned would indeed be beneficial but would need to be a bolt in and would also need to take up some ground clearance. Just not enough room to go straight across.

---------- Post added at 04:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 PM ----------


Nice job!

Can you move the control arm connections points upward?

That would improve the roll center as you lower the car (same thing as having a longer ball joint).
They can only be raised so much due to clearance issues on the car's frame rails but anything you can get would be a plus.

-Rich

The re-design does move the front joint up some but also moves the rear lower. I plan to check into moving both points up to improve roll center, but not sure how much due to our suspension design. Once this is test fitted, I will have a better idea of what can be added.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Yea I know a bolt in cross brace would have to bend down some to clear the Differential housing. That's why I suggested it be bolt in as it'd have to come out if you wanted to drop the engine out the bottom.

[Juggy]

wow i need a damn job!!! this is suuuuper purdy!
A+ work there Brian

[turbovanman²]

Wow, gotta add that to the list of things to buy in the future if you decide to make them for van's. Great work, :hail:

[inplansight]

Brian nice work as always, let me know when you have the sway bar worked out.
Paul B

[contraption22]

I got to see one of these in person yesterday. It's just beautiful.

Any of you familiar with Brian's fabrication skills can imagine how nice these things are.

[Reeves]

Hey dudes,
DJ (turboshad) said he could make us some LCA's to go with this bad A K-frame if we had enough people interested. I'm def interested. Anyone else?

Should we start a group buy thread?

[Shadow]

Hey dudes,
DJ (turboshad) said he could make us some LCA's to go with this bad A K-frame if we had enough people interested. I'm def interested. Anyone else?

Should we start a group buy thread?

Well I was interested Before you. :p

[rx2mazda]

I got to see one of these in person. It's just beautiful.



+1000

[GLHNSLHT2]

Hey dudes,
DJ (turboshad) said he could make us some LCA's to go with this bad A K-frame if we had enough people interested. I'm def interested. Anyone else?

Should we start a group buy thread?

I'd be interested as long as they're based on the 89/90 setup and have a lowered or raised(so the LCA points down more) Ball joint.

[Shadow]

? Ok?

:confused: :p

[zin]

WOW! I was thinking I'd have to build one of these myself, then this thread shows up! Now I just have to decide between it or going to SDAC....

Mike

[Shadow]

:confused: x2

:px2
























I'd love to keep this going, but I think I've been horsing around in Brians thread long enough! So, Na na, Nanana! (last word) :D

[BadAssPerformance]

WOW! I was thinking I'd have to build one of these myself, then this thread shows up! Now I just have to decide between it or going to SDAC....

Mike

Drive out to SDAC to get it to save shipping :)

[86Shelby]

1. Go to SDAC. 2. Save for a few months to get K-frame. Problems solved and everyone is happy.

[turbo2point2]

Test fit it today with an auto and 5 speed trans'. I need a drivers side 5 speed trans mount to confirm fitment. Pics...

Auto-

28701287022870328704

5 speed-
28706287072870828709

[Reeves]

Test fit it today with an auto and 5 speed trans'. I need a drivers side 5 speed trans mount to confirm fitment. Pics...

Looking good!

[stargazer7467]

thats just damn sexy

[135sohc]

I have a 523 mount if you wanna borrow it.

[DodgeZ]

will this make pulling the trans easier or worse?

[turbo2point2]

I have a 523 mount if you wanna borrow it.

Thanks, I think I have the mount I need now. I'll let you know.


will this make pulling the trans easier or worse?

Unfortunately, I don't think it will be any easier. Trans removal may require lowering the k-frame.

[Reeves]

will this make pulling the trans easier or worse?

In my OMNI, I always pull the K-frame before pulling the trans. It's SOOO much easier. Piece of cake really.

Had the trans in/out 5 times in 3 evenings last summer when I was playing with different clutches and driving it to/from work each day.

[DodgeZ]

In my OMNI, I always pull the K-frame before pulling the trans. It's SOOO much easier. Piece of cake really.

Had the trans in/out 5 times in 3 evenings last summer when I was playing with different clutches and driving it to/from work each day.

Do you have a lift?

[Reeves]

Do you have a lift?

Yessir, but this is how I put the trans in/out.

28717

[vipernbox]

Hehee....

nice to not I am not the only one... (with a lift who still pulls trannies like that :) ) And heck... I even have a sorta gantry crane setup overhead... and still... :)


One of these day I will spring for one of those nice jacks... maybe :lol:

[RoadWarrior222]

Just need 4 normal jacks some 2x4s and a lot of patience :D

I actually amazed myself how quick I got mine lined up like that.

[DodgeZ]

Yessir, but this is how I put the trans in/out.

28717

you want to swap a clutch in a CSX-T while you are in Texas?

[87CSX603]

That thing looks awsome, i will be interested in getting one after sway bar provisions are made. Any idea if Rob would be able to powder coat them idk if its too big.

[92spiritrt]

That thing looks awsome, i will be interested in getting one after sway bar provisions are made. Any idea if Rob would be able to powder coat them idk if its too big.

if you are referring to me powder coating them, yes i can. i coated the one on brian's car. i can talk to brian about adding the service to the sale of these if he is interested. i don't want to further hijack his thread as this is about his product, not my services.
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x82/92spiritrt/powder%20coating/100_0674.jpg

sorry if i'm overstepping my bounds brian. if so let me know and i'll delete this post.

[junior92]

i would love to put one in my 87 csx aswall but i would like a sway bar to as i still drive it om the road. lca would be cool also if you gays find someone to make them i'm in

[RoadWarrior222]

I guess the easy way to do a swaybar would be the endlink type.... steal it off a phord.

[Directconnection]

Hey Brian.... forgot to give you props for your newest product offering! I just hope there's more in store down the road :thumb:

[turbo2point2]

[/COLOR]
Hey Brian.... forgot to give you props for your newest product offering! I just hope there's more in store down the road :thumb:

Thanks Steve! I have a bunch of ideas that I hope I can turn into product offerings for the TM community.

---------- Post added at 07:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 PM ----------


if you are referring to me powder coating them, yes i can. i coated the one on brian's car. i can talk to brian about adding the service to the sale of these if he is interested. i don't want to further hijack his thread as this is about his product, not my services.

sorry if i'm overstepping my bounds brian. if so let me know and i'll delete this post.

No sweat Rob, post what $ you would need to do a frame.

[Spr-T-23]

i would love to put one in my 87 csx aswall but i would like a sway bar to as i still drive it om the road. lca would be cool also if you gays find someone to make them i'm in

ok i have to be the one who noticed he called us gays??

[RoadWarrior222]

We're all here just gazing the merchandise.... shiny, want to touch.

[badandy]

Count me in for 1 with sway bar provision. Maybe work with Johnny and his end link swaybars when fabbing up LCA's for us guys that already sport his bars.

[junior92]

my bad GUYS I'M A DUMB ---.

[rbryant]

Count me in for 1 with sway bar provision. Maybe work with Johnny and his end link swaybars when fabbing up LCA's for us guys that already sport his bars.

Given the extra room that is freed up with the tubular kframe...

Some thought should be given to the swaybar position.

Putting the swaybar above the control arms would allow room for an end link connection without having to give up ground clearance.
I think the DSMs work that way but I would have to double check.

-Rich

[RoadWarrior222]

Ones like that seem to be bolted to the front crossmember.... that I've seen anyway.

[Reeves]

Hehee....

nice to not I am not the only one... (with a lift who still pulls trannies like that :) ) And heck... I even have a sorta gantry crane setup overhead... and still... :)


One of these day I will spring for one of those nice jacks... maybe :lol:

I now have one of the jacks....never used it yet and I'm still not sure I would use it for the trans in our car.


you want to swap a clutch in a CSX-T while you are in Texas?

Well, I'm leaving to go back to Cincy Friday morning......I just looked out my hotel window and don't see any CSX-T......I have to work till about 6pm tomorrow....so I'm guessing....No.


ok i have to be the one who noticed he called us gays??

I did not notice that, but when I re-read I literally LMAO!

[GLHNSLHT2]

Given the extra room that is freed up with the tubular kframe...

Some thought should be given to the swaybar position.

Putting the swaybar above the control arms would allow room for an end link connection without having to give up ground clearance.
I think the DSMs work that way but I would have to double check.

-Rich

Only problem is the axles are on top of the LCA's :)

[turbo2point2]

Given the extra room that is freed up with the tubular kframe...

Some thought should be given to the swaybar position.

Putting the swaybar above the control arms would allow room for an end link connection without having to give up ground clearance.
I think the DSMs work that way but I would have to double check.

-Rich

Still looking at options for the sway bar. You are on track to what I was planning Rich. The idea is to mount the sway bar to the top of the k-frame and have it meet the LCA with an endlink. I have a few different sway bars I want to try out fitment on. I was also looking into other vehicles with more aftermarket support for more bar options, diameter, etc.

[rbryant]

Still looking at options for the sway bar. You are on track to what I was planning Rich. The idea is to mount the sway bar to the top of the k-frame and have it meet the LCA with an endlink. I have a few different sway bars I want to try out fitment on. I was also looking into other vehicles with more aftermarket support for more bar options, diameter, etc.

It might also be worth thinking about how the tubular kframe changes the airflow under the car. The factory went so far as to add air deflectors to try and get some air up to cool the turbo from under the car. The tubular frame will change that a bit more. Putting a flat plate of thin steel on the bottom might actually help the under car aerodynamics.

What are the rules for using tubular frames at the track? Do they require certified welds?

-Rich

[black86glhs]

What about placing 1/4 plate at the black colored areas in the picture to allow stock sway bar attachment? It would help strengthen that area, also.
You can make an aftermarket or other sway bar an option. 28815

[turbovanman²]

In my OMNI, I always pull the K-frame before pulling the trans. It's SOOO much easier. Piece of cake really.

Had the trans in/out 5 times in 3 evenings last summer when I was playing with different clutches and driving it to/from work each day.


I gotta agree, I did an L body in the summer, should have taken out the K-member, would have made it alot easier.

Maybe this tubular one will free up some room?

[black86glhs]

I gotta agree, I did an L body in the summer, should have taken out the K-member, would have made it alot easier.

Maybe this tubular one will free up some room?Brian already said it would still require pulling the K-frame. At least it will be lighter.

[Reeves]

I gotta agree, I did an L body in the summer, should have taken out the K-member, would have made it alot easier.

And here you fought me on this issue before..... Glad to see you came around.

[turbovanman²]

And here you fought me on this issue before..... Glad to see you came around.

Well if it was stock, I'd leave it in but modified, everything gets in the way, :banghead:

[Reeves]

Well if it was stock, I'd leave it in but modified, everything gets in the way, :banghead:

Like what?

[rx2mazda]

When we did my clutch, we didn't touch the K-frame. Came out/in pretty easy.(thats what she said.....to Reeves)

[Reeves]

When we did my clutch, we didn't touch the K-frame. Came out/in pretty easy.(thats what she said.....to Reeves)

I didn't say you HAD to remove the K-frame.....I just think it's much easier.

[turbovanman²]

Like what?

The IC piping and I moved the rad so with all that done, I couldn't turn/tilt the trans enough to clear it all as now it being jammed against that and the K-member. I've done them stock as its doable but I am also lazy, lol.

["Top Fuel" Bender]

If you have room to run a straight shaft thru you could do something like this

http://www.1speedway.com/Swaybars.htm

you could make different dia mounts to hold the sway bar to change bar dia.
and different length arms/multiple mounting locations to change rates

of course there is much cheaper options then above

[puppet]

If you have room to run a straight shaft thru you could do something like this

http://www.1speedway.com/Swaybars.htm

you could make different dia mounts to hold the sway bar to change bar dia.
and different length arms/multiple mounting locations to change rates

of course there is much cheaper options then aboveI like this ... looks to me that with their mounts you don't need to change anything when swapping bars.

[johnl]

Ditto on tubular A arms. Just might buy one.

[RoadWarrior222]

What I'm wondering now, is if this would make enough room on a 3.0 to run proper headers.

[Juggy]

the K frame done really interfere unless your trying to pull the trans with the bobble strut/bracket still mounted!
thats def the deal breaker lol

[turbo2point2]

It might also be worth thinking about how the tubular kframe changes the airflow under the car. The factory went so far as to add air deflectors to try and get some air up to cool the turbo from under the car. The tubular frame will change that a bit more. Putting a flat plate of thin steel on the bottom might actually help the under car aerodynamics.

What are the rules for using tubular frames at the track? Do they require certified welds?

-Rich

I'll leave any aerodynamics or addition of sheet metal up to the end user. I won' t bury myself in trying to make that stuff work.

I have yet to see a rule where you could not run a tube K-frame. No weld certification needed.

[neonturbo]

Hi All,

I have decided to bring my tubular K-frames to market. This design is what is currently on my Shadow. I built a jig with the ability to produce both L-body and also P,G,J,K frames as well.

Have you thought about checking to see if the Neon K-member is the same size? It might expand your market.

If you could post dimensions between body to K-member mounting points I could measure the Neon to see if it would bolt on. It would require a control arm swap, but I think the dual pivots will work on a Neon.

[turbo2point2]

I spoke with a person at the compay that Bruce linked to http://www.1speedway.com/Swaybars.htm I priced out a 1" solid sway bar, 2 pillow blocks, 2 30 degree arms, and 2 locating collars the total was $260. All else that would be needed to install the sway bar would be some rod ends to connect to the LCA, prob. $40-$50. Since trying to find an OEM sway bar that has aftermarket support and that would fit our needs is probably an endless journey, I think this is the best route for those wanting a sway bar option on the K-frame.

Update, thanks to Mike Marra for lending me the correct mount for the 5 speed. There is a bit more room around the trans. Still might not be enough to remove the trans without dropping the frame though.

---------- Post added at 02:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:38 PM ----------


Have you thought about checking to see if the Neon K-member is the same size? It might expand your market.

If you could post dimensions between body to K-member mounting points I could measure the Neon to see if it would bolt on. It would require a control arm swap, but I think the dual pivots will work on a Neon.

I'll get the dimensions on here, but I don't think it would even be close. Moday will be the next time I'm in the shop, I'll post them up tnen.

[turbovanman²]

Have you thought about checking to see if the Neon K-member is the same size? It might expand your market.

If you could post dimensions between body to K-member mounting points I could measure the Neon to see if it would bolt on. It would require a control arm swap, but I think the dual pivots will work on a Neon.

Its different, IIRC, alot different.

[RoadWarrior222]

Probably even if they had it working perfect in dual pivot format, they couldn't have it look anything the same on a Neon, otherwise it would have been. "Chrysler introduces jelly mould tarted over K-car" ....

[neonturbo]

Its different, IIRC, alot different.


Actually first gen are very very similar. Squint a little and you see sort of a blend of the early stub strut, and the dual pivot.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/neonturbo/Swap/kframe.jpg

I don't have a K base car as a reference for measuring. Many of us Neon guys are pretty serious about drag racing, and autocross.

[rbryant]

Actually first gen are very very similar. Squint a little and you see sort of a blend of the early stub strut, and the dual pivot.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/neonturbo/Swap/kframe.jpg

I don't have a K base car as a reference for measuring. Many of us Neon guys are pretty serious about drag racing, and autocross.

I think you could probably adapt the Neon kframe into our cars with a little work but I don't see where it is any better than our 91+ kframes.

I breifly considered modifying Neon frames for my dual pivot lbody frame setup.

-Rich

[Shadow]

I think you could probably adapt the Neon kframe into our cars with a little work but I don't see where it is any better than our 91+ kframes.

I breifly considered modifying Neon frames for my dual pivot lbody frame setup.

-Rich

I don't think that's what he was asking.

[neonturbo]

I don't think that's what he was asking.

Correct. I want this sweet tube frame in my Neon. I bet there would be quite a few that would use this if we knew it fit. The Neon suspension setup sucks. (IMO)

This would also save a bunch of weight, especially in the heavy front, and that is important for any performance vehicle.

[RoadWarrior222]

Yeah, CF hood and front clip, relocate battery to trunk, tube K frame and you can break slicks loose at idle all day. :evil:

[BadAssPerformance]

I spoke with a person at the compay that Bruce linked to http://www.1speedway.com/Swaybars.htm I priced out a 1" solid sway bar, 2 pillow blocks, 2 30 degree arms, and 2 locating collars the total was $260. All else that would be needed to install the sway bar would be some rod ends to connect to the LCA, prob. $40-$50. Since trying to find an OEM sway bar that has aftermarket support and that would fit our needs is probably an endless journey, I think this is the best route for those wanting a sway bar option on the K-frame. .

Does Johnny have any that could work? Depending on leverage ratios and geometry and if soemoen plans to road race, they may be looking for 1.25" or bigger bars?

[minigts]

Brian since no one else has offered, I will sacrifice the time and drive my GLHS up there for you to test in your shop. You can use it to create the L body one and test fit as needed. GRANTED, on the final test fit it is possible I may have to step out with the car for a test drive (loaded up with all my travel items) and take longer than usual to get back to the shop, i.e., never. :D Just let me know when I need to head up and I'm on my way.

OH and I almost forgot, looks excellent!

[turbo2point2]

Does Johnny have any that could work? Depending on leverage ratios and geometry and if soemoen plans to road race, they may be looking for 1.25" or bigger bars?

I wasn't aware that Johnny sold that type of sway bar. As mentioned, I am trying to stay away from OEM style bars. I can ask Speedway if the mount from the 1.25" sway bar has the same bolt spacing.

[BadAssPerformance]

I guess I just thought he sells many different kinds of bars, I just thought of him as I think he sells the endlink conversion bars too.

Just curious, you mentioned that you changed the geometry, do you have side by side top down pic of the tubular k-frame with LCA's bolted to it and a stocker? This feature peaks my interest the most :eyebrows:

[rx2mazda]

Brian since no one else has offered, I will sacrifice the time and drive my GLHS up there for you to test in your shop. You can use it to create the L body one and test fit as needed. GRANTED, on the final test fit it is possible I may have to step out with the car for a test drive (loaded up with all my travel items) and take longer than usual to get back to the shop, i.e., never. :D Just let me know when I need to head up and I'm on my way.

OH and I almost forgot, looks excellent!

Nice try, I gave that offer weeks ago!

[turbo2point2]

I guess I just thought he sells many different kinds of bars, I just thought of him as I think he sells the endlink conversion bars too.

Just curious, you mentioned that you changed the geometry, do you have side by side top down pic of the tubular k-frame with LCA's bolted to it and a stocker? This feature peaks my interest the most :eyebrows:

I'll have a k-frame that will use dual pivot LCA's hopefully finished by the end of the week and I'll get a pic.

[Shadow]

I wasn't aware that Johnny sold that type of sway bar. As mentioned, I am trying to stay away from OEM style bars. I can ask Speedway if the mount from the 1.25" sway bar has the same bolt spacing.

Is the diam as much of a concern in an A/M piece? Isn't it possible that an A/M 1" (depending on material and construction) could do just as good if not better than a 20 year old stock 1.25"?

[BadAssPerformance]

I'll have a k-frame that will use dual pivot LCA's hopefully finished by the end of the week and I'll get a pic.

Awesome :thumb:

[rbryant]

Correct. I want this sweet tube frame in my Neon. I bet there would be quite a few that would use this if we knew it fit. The Neon suspension setup sucks. (IMO)

This would also save a bunch of weight, especially in the heavy front, and that is important for any performance vehicle.

Yea I guess I was just saying that they are similar but you are right my response didn't answer your question.

They are a bit different though so it would make more sense to have two different tubular frames.

-Rich

[turbo2point2]

Is the diam as much of a concern in an A/M piece? Isn't it possible that an A/M 1" (depending on material and construction) could do just as good if not better than a 20 year old stock 1.25"?

I would say that the diameter would not be an issue as long as the the rate could be matched. I am not sure of the stock sway bar rates, if anyone knows, please chime in. They offer a solid and drilled shafts so depending on o.d., length, wall thickness, and OAL of the arms, the rates can be dialed in.

[turboshad]

This is great to hear Brian!! Its really exciting to see the awesome products coming out in the last while to support the community. I'm looking at the model here and do you think there will be room to get a sway bar on top with the axle there? Maybe if you went a bit more to the rear for the attachment point on the control arm it could be done. I could post a couple views if you like, well at least with the CM control arms in it.

[Shadow]

Agreed, I can't think of to many (if any) other car communities that have a piece like this available to them! Was thinking I was gonna be the lone ranger for a while, but the way ppl are talking it sounds like there's gonna be a few of us with these! :eyebrows:

[Reeves]

Was thinking I was gonna be the lone ranger for a while :eyebrows:

You're not alone.....

[Shadow]

You're not alone.....

Good to hear, cause there's some decision making that needs to happen and it's prob going to depend on how many are serious about running one of these.

So, of the 4 or 5 that already said they would buy one/are interested in getting one, how many are serious, that they Will follow through?

And out of all of those who would consider this crossmember, how many "hinge" on wether it has swaybar capability? (has to be able to run a swaybar or you wouldn't buy it)

[turbovanman²]

Good to hear, cause there's some decision making that needs to happen and it's prob going to depend on how many are serious about running one of these.

So, of the 4 or 5 that already said they would buy one/are interested in getting one, how many are serious, that they Will follow through?

And out of all of those who would consider this crossmember, how many "hinge" on wether it has swaybar capability? (has to be able to run a swaybar or you wouldn't buy it)

I would love to get one, albeit in the future though, lol. Damn family, mortage, slow work, saving money to go to SDAC, bah!

[Shadow]

I would love to get one, albeit in the future though, lol. Damn family, mortage, slow work, saving money to go to SDAC, bah!

Cool, but I'd like to hear from those that are thinking this year. You still get a vote on how important a swaybar is for you though. ;)

[turbovanman²]

Cool, but I'd like to hear from those that are thinking this year. You still get a vote on how important a swaybar is for you though. ;)

Has to have a swaybar, :p

[junior92]

I want one and would like it by sdac but I would like a swaybar.

[Shadow]

OK, that's what I want to hear! Speak up ppl! Who else is in? That's 2 for swaybars so far.

[speedfreek500]

Santa I swear to god. If your fat red --- doesn't get me one of these for christmas I am marching up to the north pole, tying cement blocks to your feet, putting your --- in a bag, and throwing you in the river......... And after all that, I may just plow your wife.

[Pat]

santa i swear to god. If your fat red --- doesn't get me one of these for christmas i am marching up to the north pole, tying cement blocks to your feet, putting your --- in a bag, and throwing you in the river......... And after all that, i may just plow your wife.

^^^^ lmao!

[Shadow]

Santa I swear to god. If your fat red --- doesn't get me one of these for christmas I am marching up to the north pole, tying cement blocks to your feet, putting your --- in a bag, and throwing you in the river......... And after all that, I may just plow your wife.

So, swaybar or no swaybar?

[Shadow]

Ditto on tubular A arms. Just might buy one.

I think you would need two. :p

[Shadow]

What's with the crickets guys, this topic was cookin a week ago! FeedBack needed on importance of swaybar mod!

zin, 87CSX603, junior92, badandy, Reaper1, you guys all showed more than a light interest in this and only 1 of you has spoke up!

Is the swaybar a deal breaker? Cause I'm willing to work with Brian and DJ (tubular a-arms) to get this all worked out and leave my crossmember in Brians hands till a swaybar mod is completly worked out, but I wanna know that it's for good reason! (swaybar Isn't the end of the world for me, but I wouldn't mind having one)

So, what do you guys say, would you buy one without swaybar provision, or is the swaybar a must? :welcome:

[karlak]

I would be interested in one for my daytona in about 6 months. If things work out I would need two. One would not need the sway bar. One issue I will have is sourcing a set of A-arms for this.

[Shadow]

I would be interested in one for my daytona in about 6 months. If things work out I would need two. One would not need the sway bar. One issue I will have is sourcing a set of A-arms for this.

I believe Brian can make them for stock dual pivot LCA's or DJ's tubular ones. :eyebrows:

[junior92]

I would have to have a swaybar if I buy one. I would like lca aswall as I would need new lca as I have a 87 csx

[Juggy]

I would have to have a swaybar if I buy one. I would like lca aswall as I would need new lca as I have a 87 csx

money bags

[black86glhs]

I would love one, but it would be a 2-4 months away. I would rather have mine with no covering(powder coating) and stock style geometry. I have a glhs so I'm not sure how stock dual pivot translates to stock in this case. Either way, I show interest.

[karlak]

I believe Brian can make them for stock dual pivot LCA's or DJ's tubular ones. :eyebrows:

I would need a set or two of stock dual pivot. Nothing in the yards around here.

[Shadow]

I would need a set or two of stock dual pivot. Nothing in the yards around here.

Cake, I've got at least a doz. and I'm sure I'm not the only one. :nod:

[turbo2point2]

Ok, finally made enough progess to put up a couple of pics. The first pic is the revised L-body geometry, as it sits on the jig. Second is stock geometry, on the jig as well. I'll put some pics of the K-frame that will use stock LCA's tomorrow.

[BadAssPerformance]

Cool... Side by side top down pics would help understand it too :)

BTW, nice protractor ;) :thumb:

http://www.badassperformance.com/mrides/z/cage/0_deg.JPG

[vipernbox]

You sure have the gears in my head turning thinking about the project I have going here... :thumb:




I am assuming that is Anti lift you adding to the suspension design?

[turbo2point2]

You sure have the gears in my head turning thinking about the project I have going here... :thumb:




I am assuming that is Anti lift you adding to the suspension design?

Correct, I am altering the anti-lift geometry but, I am decreasing it to give us pro-lift. Anyone wanting to read on the subject... http://www.orldsm.com/showthread.php?13797-Anti-Squat-and-Pro-Lift and also here... http://www.whiteline.com.au/articles/Effect%20of%20WL%20ALK_b.pdf

[minigts]

Correct, I am altering the anti-lift geometry but, I am decreasing it to give us pro-lift. Anyone wanting to read on the subject... http://www.orldsm.com/showthread.php?13797-Anti-Squat-and-Pro-Lift and also here... http://www.whiteline.com.au/articles/Effect%20of%20WL%20ALK_b.pdf

I was good with all that mumbo jumbo until I got to the part on the image where the functions and trig started flowing out. Regardless, your work has proven itself on the track and your craftsmanship is equally visibly impressive. Can't wait to get one of these things for the blue Charger. :thumb: I have been scraping together all my change in my house, I'm up to $121!! Only about $700'ish to go! hehe

[Reeves]

I have been scraping together all my change in my house, I'm up to $121!! Only about $700'ish to go! hehe

I've been scrapping stuff, and selling stuff, and trading stuff....etc.... LOL

[Shadow]

I am assuming that is Anti lift you adding to the suspension design?

This was my assumption in the beginning as well, was kind of confused with how pro lift would help with traction. After reading up on it a little, it's actually a whole different beast than anything I was thinking.

I thought this crossmember would be a "drag only" type of piece that I would "make due with" on the street and auto-x. (because I was thinking ant-lift)

After reading up on it, this design Will improve All aspects of the suspension! Better high speed cornering, better traction, better braking! There is no downside! (that I can see, anyway) :thumb:

[Reaper1]

Oh, I'm interested, don't get me wrong! I just need to win the Power Ball so I can afford it! I'm in my last semester of school and am WAY broke! I'm just trying to make ends meet!

If/when the time coes for me to do something on this scale, it will HAVE to have a sway bar. However, I consider myself fairly resourceful and I think that regardless of whether this product comes with provisions for a bar or not, I can figure a way to make one work! ;) :thumb:

I've given Brian a couple of my ideas on that matter, one divorces the sway bar from the K-frame all together.

[zin]

I've given Brian a couple of my ideas on that matter, one divorces the sway bar from the K-frame all together.

I think that this would be the way to go, though I haven't meditated on it, it seems like Chryco did it they way the did for cost/ease of assembly rather than best performance/geometry.

Mike

[RoadWarrior222]

They said it eliminated some fault of the endlink type but I forgot what.

[Reaper1]

I think that this would be the way to go, though I haven't meditated on it, it seems like Chryco did it they way the did for cost/ease of assembly rather than best performance/geometry.

Mike

I don't want to hijack this thread, but my idea I believe HAS been done before. It mounts the sway bar to the core support and then uses blade arms to connect to the a-arms. I could SWEAR I've heard of some other TM'r doing this. The onlt caveat to this is that I would HIGHLY suggest reinforcing the core support if this is done.

OK...back to topic!

[black86glhs]

It is amazing what some engineering courses do! I actually understand what was being shown. I could care less about actually applying it to the car, I was just happy to understand it!!!!:thumb::eyebrows::hail:

[vipernbox]

Correct, I am altering the anti-lift geometry but, I am decreasing it to give us pro-lift. Anyone wanting to read on the subject... http://www.orldsm.com/showthread.php?13797-Anti-Squat-and-Pro-Lift and also here... http://www.whiteline.com.au/articles/Effect%20of%20WL%20ALK_b.pdf


Those links are great.. :thumb:

[Reaper1]

After reading the Whiteline review, I kind of understand why Brain decided to go with pro-lift. For a drag-only car I can definately see the bennefit. I also think that DD cars will see a positive effect from it as well.

However, I don't see where it would be better for road course and auto-x guys. According to the Whitline paper, going pro-lift effectively softens the precieved spring rate and allows more suspension travel during both acceleration and braking. For those of us that are lowered this is touch and go because we are already pretty limited on how much the suspension can travel before bottoming out.

I'm NOT bashing this product, so anybody that thinks I am, take a chill pill. I'm only observing that for those of us interested in this product that want to do more than go in a straight line, sticking with the stock geometry or seeing if Brain can incorperate just a tad bit of ANTI-lift might be the way to go. Of course the BEST solution would be if this aspect could be adjusted, but I think with this design of the product, that would be kind of hard to incorperate along with the other adjustment/modification that I beleive he's looking at, and has been requested by a few others.

[vipernbox]

Properly fit Shims at the mounting points?

[Shadow]

After reading the Whiteline review, I kind of understand why Brain decided to go with pro-lift. For a drag-only car I can definately see the bennefit. I also think that DD cars will see a positive effect from it as well.

However, I don't see where it would be better for road course and auto-x guys. According to the Whitline paper, going pro-lift effectively softens the precieved spring rate and allows more suspension travel during both acceleration and braking. For those of us that are lowered this is touch and go because we are already pretty limited on how much the suspension can travel before bottoming out.

I'm NOT bashing this product, so anybody that thinks I am, take a chill pill. I'm only observing that for those of us interested in this product that want to do more than go in a straight line, sticking with the stock geometry or seeing if Brain can incorperate just a tad bit of ANTI-lift might be the way to go. Of course the BEST solution would be if this aspect could be adjusted, but I think with this design of the product, that would be kind of hard to incorperate along with the other adjustment/modification that I beleive he's looking at, and has been requested by a few others.

Interesting, I didn't read it like that. (maybe I got it wrong?) I thought they were saying that, because the springs are actually doing more of the work instead of the load transfering through all of the joints/solid members, that it will "feel" like your springs are softer. Wether or not that equates to having to use a stiffer springs along with the altered geometry I couldn't say, but wouldn't that be the proper way to "tune" any suspension properly? (have the springs doing the work and then dial in the stiffness)

[Reaper1]

Interesting, I didn't read it like that. (maybe I got it wrong?) I thought they were saying that, because the springs are actually doing more of the work instead of the load transfering through all of the joints/solid members, that it will "feel" like your springs are softer. Wether or not that equates to having to use a stiffer springs along with the altered geometry I couldn't say, but wouldn't that be the proper way to "tune" any suspension properly? (have the springs doing the work and then dial in the stiffness)

I was really tired when I read and wrote that. I'll read over it again just to make sure I conveyed what *I* understood. I could be wrong as well. I'm all about learning, so I want to know if I'm wrong and why so I understand it correctly.

[vipernbox]

Think about it like this...


instead of moving the postion of the LCA a few degrees and trying to figure it out... Move it mentally 20 or 30 degrees instead of 2 or 3 and then think about what would be happening with just the movement of the LCA...



Of course this is all relative to the cars Center of Gravity... but yeah...


Looking at extremes might make understanding the fine tuning easier..

[Shadow]

Here's the way I see it, and I'm new to this suspension stuff, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. 100% anti-lift/anti-dive = welded solid frame, so picture a Solid suspension taking ALL of the forces bearing upon it. (not to mention what that's going to feel like inside the car and how your tires are Not going to have Any chance to adjust to changing track variations/grading.

As you reduce the anti-lift/anti-dive you begin to allow the springs to take more of the forces that are brought to bear upon the suspension, thus doing their job. This achieves several things, the least of which is making your tires contact the surface your driving on Better during accel or braking in Any type of driving.

Now, there obviously has to be a "middle ground" that would be best suited for all types of applications, my Guess, again, would be somewhere close to zero anti-lift/anti-dive.

I believe this set-up is somewhere close to zero anti-dive 6-7% pro-lift, so that's pretty close.

[turboshad]

It seems like this could turn into a good thread on it's own and not clutter the amazing K-frame now available thread......but until then.

Good links Brian. I can see the theory and how it would work though a little counter intuitive. Of course, like most others, I was thinking you would want the typical anti dive/lift geometry but I can see how that might play out. I'm curious as to how different the pro lift scenario is on a FWD vs AWD. Brian, were you able to see any noticeable difference in front lift with the new geometry? If you could imagine the car being a manual trans, would there be allot of movement between shifts? It seems like it is the same theories as Warren's leverage arm off the bobble strut. On an AWD car you can develop the suspension to do opposite things on each end and the whole body would lift "level" but on a FWD being able to only control the front suspension you would still need some substantial spring rates in the back to battle the squat.

As for the description of it making the suspension seem softer I think it comes from this. During acceleration, the forces acting in a pro lift direction will put reaction forces through the wheel to the ground. Being a reaction force it needs to react with something and that something will be the spring. Since it is a force in the same direction as the spring, the spring will unload (I think I'm off a bit here but something like that as I believe it is an internal force reaction). Since the static weight transfer is not effected by the anti/pro lift You will see more displacement for the same vehicle mass and acceleration therefore acting like a softer spring rate. (same force with larger displacement equals softer rate). The same goes for breaking with anti lift instead of anti dive. There will be more spring compression for the same mass and deceleration once again acting like a softer rate. That is a pretty broad explanation and I can't say I can totally picture the internal force reactions taking place but that should cover the jist of it. I really need to man up and drop the coin for Milliken & Milliken as I always find myself wishing I had it.

[turboshad]

Here's the way I see it, and I'm new to this suspension stuff, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. 100% anti-lift/anti-dive = welded solid frame, so picture a Solid suspension taking ALL of the forces bearing upon it. (not to mention what that's going to feel like inside the car and how your tires are Not going to have Any chance to adjust to changing track variations/grading.

As you reduce the anti-lift/anti-dive you begin to allow the springs to take more of the forces that are brought to bear upon the suspension, thus doing their job. This achieves several things, the least of which is making your tires contact the surface your driving on Better during accel or braking in Any type of driving.

Now, there obviously has to be a "middle ground" that would be best suited for all types of applications, my Guess, again, would be somewhere close to zero anti-lift/anti-dive.

I believe this set-up is somewhere close to zero anti-dive 6-7% pro-lift, so that's pretty close.

100% won't make your suspension rigid, it just means that any forces due to acceleration or deceleration won't be transfered through the spring. Instead all the forces associated with these conditions will be transfered through the control arm itself. The spring will still act to take up vertical forces from bumps and variations in the road. This comes when the instant center is in a direct horizontal line with the point that the acceleration (axle) or braking (ground) is actin on. It's like trying to turn a wheel by pushing through the axle. It doesn't work so you have to offset your push from the center of rotation or all your force will go directly into the wheel bearing.

[Reaper1]

OK. I re-read the Whiteline article. From what I gathered from it THIS time, going with pro-lift will effectively make the spring see more load from the wheel and take away load that would normally be transferred to the other suspension components. This is a good thing.

Because the spring will now see more load, in order to keep articulation in check under braking and cornering, a stiffer rate will be needed. To control that rate under acceleration and other unloading events, more damping will be needed.

Most people would cringe at that idea, but because the spring and damper are now doing more work, there will be LESS crashing over bumps and overall traction has the potential to increase over irregular surfaces, even with the stiffer rates and aditional damping. If the effect also adds castor that will help stability.

So, in retrospect, I suppose that going with pro-lift DOES make sense. However, you are now entering a fairly unknown world in suspension tuning because the standard and well known spring and damper selections that work with the stock suspension are no longer valid.

I gotta say though, that if you are going to buy this product, you had better already be willing to live in uncharted territory! :)

[turbo2point2]

I'm curious as to how different the pro lift scenario is on a FWD vs AWD. Brian, were you able to see any noticeable difference in front lift with the new geometry? If you could imagine the car being a manual trans, would there be allot of movement between shifts? It seems like it is the same theories as Warren's leverage arm off the bobble strut. On an AWD car you can develop the suspension to do opposite things on each end and the whole body would lift "level" but on a FWD being able to only control the front suspension you would still need some substantial spring rates in the back to battle the squat.

As for the description of it making the suspension seem softer I think it comes from this. During acceleration, the forces acting in a pro lift direction will put reaction forces through the wheel to the ground. Being a reaction force it needs to react with something and that something will be the spring. Since it is a force in the same direction as the spring, the spring will unload (I think I'm off a bit here but something like that as I believe it is an internal force reaction). Since the static weight transfer is not effected by the anti/pro lift You will see more displacement for the same vehicle mass and acceleration therefore acting like a softer spring rate. (same force with larger displacement equals softer rate). The same goes for breaking with anti lift instead of anti dive. There will be more spring compression for the same mass and deceleration once again acting like a softer rate. That is a pretty broad explanation and I can't say I can totally picture the internal force reactions taking place but that should cover the jist of it. I really need to man up and drop the coin for Milliken & Milliken as I always find myself wishing I had it.

It is difficult to compare AWD to FWD due to acceleration forces at both the front and rear of an AWD car. Since pro-lift can only be obtained at the front axle of either FWD or AWD, I think that the differences(if any) would be minimal. I didn't notice any difference in the lift of the front end with the revised geometry on my car. If the car was manual trans, I think it may have a tendency to porpoise without any attention paid to the entire suspension setup. As you just mentioned, rear spring rate and damping will now play a bigger role on how the car reacts.

I think you hit the nail on the head with your description.

[GLHSHELBY]

very nice product. I`d be interested in one also a few months down the road but only after learning more about swaybar provisions as I`m not building a car to drag race only to handle better in the twisties.I`d like the option of having it powdercoated also as I know no one local.

[TopDollar69]

Perhaps a larger diameter tubular swaybar would offer a weight savings over a solid unit?

[Reaper1]

A solid bar offers a very minimal gain in torsional soring rate over a holow bar of the same diameter, given the hollow bar isn't TOO hollow. Therefor, as long as the diameter of the bar, and the lever arm acting on the bar are the same, then the hollow bar will decrease weight and give the same performance!

[turboshad]

The angle of deflection for a given torque on a shaft is inversely proportional to a value called J.

For a solid shaft J=.5*pi*(r1)^4, where r1 is the radius of the shaft.
For a hollow shaft J=.5*pi*((r1)^4-(r2)^4) where r2 is the inner radius of the hole in the shaft.

To find the percentage difference of deflection for a solid vs. hollow shaft, simply divide the solid J by the hollow J. Simplified this becomes..

((r1)^4)/((r1)^4-(r2)^4)

For example, a 1.25" solid vs. a hollow with .25" wall would be .625^4/(.625^4-.375^4)=1.145. So the hollow shaft would deflect 14.5% more degrees than the solid shaft would with the same torque applied.

[RoadWarrior222]

Tube swaybar, tube axles, tube tie-rods and tube coil springs to go with that tube K-frame sir?

[Reaper1]

The angle of deflection for a given torque on a shaft is inversely proportional to a value called J.

For a solid shaft J=.5*pi*(r1)^4, where r1 is the radius of the shaft.
For a hollow shaft J=.5*pi*((r1)^4-(r2)^4) where r2 is the inner radius of the hole in the shaft.

To find the percentage difference of deflection for a solid vs. hollow shaft, simply divide the solid J by the hollow J. Simplified this becomes..

((r1)^4)/((r1)^4-(r2)^4)

For example, a 1.25" solid vs. a hollow with .25" wall would be .625^4/(.625^4-.375^4)=1.145. So the hollow shaft would deflect 14.5% more degrees than the solid shaft would with the same torque applied.

Yes, this is basic solids. However we don't know the wall thickness, nor do we know the alloy or hardening process. All of those will have an impact on the deflection caused by a torsional load incurred. The maximum amount of the load is carried by the outermost radius. So, the load capacity of both is very nearly the same.

[turboshad]

Yes, this is basic solids. However we don't know the wall thickness, nor do we know the alloy or hardening process. All of those will have an impact on the deflection caused by a torsional load incurred. The maximum amount of the load is carried by the outermost radius. So, the load capacity of both is very nearly the same.

When comparing similar materials the relationship is still the same. Sure the max load is very close to the same for the hollow or solid, but coming close to yield is not the design intent of an anti roll bar. You want torsional stiffness. The stiffness is a function of the cross section (J), the length (L), and the modulus of rigidity or shear modulus (G).

phi=TL/JG

G is the material property in the equation. The shear modulus for mild or chromoly, or any alloy as far as I can see, is the same at 80GPa. Therefore each type would deflect the same amount with a given torque. Stainless is a bit higher at 86Gpa and would therefore give 7% less deflection than mild but it has a low yield strength.

Looking back I take it that your first comment was focussed on the yield of the material when I thought it was focussed on stiffness which it should be in this situation. I was trying to show that there was definitely a difference in stiffness for a hollow bar with the same OD as a solid. That's what got me on an example of two bars with the same OD, sorry if I took this the wrong direction but back on track. What I should have done in the above post was compare the weight of solid bar that had similar stiffness to the hollow because there is definitely an advantage there. With the 1.25x.25 wall bar about the same deflection would be seen in a 1.207" dia solid bar. The solid bar would weigh 20% more than the hollow and offer the same stiffness so TopDollar had it right with a larger hollow bar. The material choice would be dependent on the peak stresses involved but would for the most part have no bearing on the stiffness.

[Reaper1]

Yup, yup. Solids is not one of my strong subject. The prof didn't speak english very well and didn't convey the information well at all. Anyway, yeah, I think I you got me as I was thinking in terms of strength, not torsional rigidity, which is what we want.

Sorry for the confusion, that's MY fault! DOH! *facepalm*

[RoadWarrior222]

But it's a good point that a lot of the strength is in the surface hardening process anyway, so thinking in extremes, you're kinda comparing one steel tube full of styrofoam to two co-axial tubes with styrofoam between them.

[86trbolancer]

this thing fit an H body ???

[turbo2point2]

this thing fit an H body ???

I am fairly certain it will. Which k-frame is on there now, stub shaft style?

[TopDollar69]

It should be if it's the original 86 unit.

[86trbolancer]

yeah its the stub shaft currently. tho i was planning on swaping to a 90 caravan kframe so I could have 11in frt disks, duel pivot, and the larger sway bar...I'm going to be getting tubular ctrl arms for it as well in the next 2 months.

I just wasn't sure if some bodys had a different bolt patterns.

[GLHNSLHT2]

90 Caravan kframes are still stub strut FYI and they won't fit on your car anyway. You can run 89/90 11" brakes on your current kmember and arms. But the 89/90 kmember and arms are much nicer with a better ride and handling with Poly bushings. The tubular kframe would is a nice weight savings but from what I've read so far isn't really made for a street or road race car.

[Reaper1]

The tubular kframe would is a nice weight savings but from what I've read so far isn't really made for a street or road race car.

If you want to run the stock sway bar this is a true statement....right now. As for it not being for anything but drag, that still has yet to be proven in practice. Thus far Brain is the only one to have used the altered geometry, but I'd say it's working! LOL I'm sure it will be put to the test in the other venues soon enough! :thumb:

[Shadow]

The tubular kframe would is a nice weight savings but from what I've read so far isn't really made for a street or road race car.

Interestingly enough, I see it exactly opposite. Whiteline didn't make their kit for Drag racing, they made it for better road/track handling and Specifically for higher powered FWD cars.

What's surprising to me is that Brian chose this avenue. I would have guessed he would have gone straight to More Anti-lift! (for a matter of fact, I originally thought that's what he did) Now that would have been more of a "Drag only" application.

This set-up Should improve a FWD in high speed cornering/braking, accel/decel more than anything else! (from what I understand)

The fact that it can also improve straight line traction for 1/4 mile is something I for one, wouldn't have known If Brian wouldn't have tried it!

[RoadWarrior222]

Yeah, I could see it being friggin' awesome for road course and autocross, wasn't too clear on the strip advantages.

[turbo2point2]

Interestingly enough, I see it exactly opposite. Whiteline didn't make their kit for Drag racing, they made it for better road/track handling and Specifically for higher powered FWD cars.

What's surprising to me is that Brian chose this avenue. I would have guessed he would have gone straight to More Anti-lift! (for a matter of fact, I originally thought that's what he did) Now that would have been more of a "Drag only" application.

This set-up Should improve a FWD in high speed cornering/braking, accel/decel more than anything else! (from what I understand)

The fact that it can also improve straight line traction for 1/4 mile is something I for one, wouldn't have known If Brian wouldn't have tried it!

I will try and see if I can post the SAE paper on the FWD drag car. It is what gave me the last push to do the k-frame and alter geometry. They have some very interesting theories and put them into simulations. Everything from altering geometry to playing with resonant frequency of the car to reduce e.t. It is a neat read.

[vipernbox]

please do!!!!

[86seeS]

These k frames look amazing going to start scraping and hunting change like reeves and minigts lol would look great in my dc charger

[Shadow]

I will try and see if I can post the SAE paper on the FWD drag car. It is what gave me the last push to do the k-frame and alter geometry. They have some very interesting theories and put them into simulations. Everything from altering geometry to playing with resonant frequency of the car to reduce e.t. It is a neat read.

Looking forward to it!

[Reaper1]

I will try and see if I can post the SAE paper on the FWD drag car. It is what gave me the last push to do the k-frame and alter geometry. They have some very interesting theories and put them into simulations. Everything from altering geometry to playing with resonant frequency of the car to reduce e.t. It is a neat read.

Oh PLEASE do!! :thumb:

[zin]

I will try and see if I can post the SAE paper on the FWD drag car. It is what gave me the last push to do the k-frame and alter geometry. They have some very interesting theories and put them into simulations. Everything from altering geometry to playing with resonant frequency of the car to reduce e.t. It is a neat read.

I'd love to read this!!

Mike

[turbo2point2]

I'm having a hard time trying to find the pdf I had. I have the hard copy, so I might to try and scan it...

[Reaper1]

If you give me the SAE paper number I *might* be able to get somebody from school to get it. I used to have a student SAE membership, but I let it laps. Maybe I should reinstate it? LOL

[vipernbox]

I'm having a hard time trying to find the pdf I had. I have the hard copy, so I might to try and scan it...


Most SAE papers are pay to play... unless you have student access... :thumb:


http://papers.sae.org/

[turbo2point2]

It is indeed pay to play in this case. Here is a link to it: http://papers.sae.org/2005-01-0421/

[Shadow]

So if someone were to pay for a download/copy of this, would it be illegal to post it?

[vipernbox]

this is what they say

Usage Agreement
All SAE papers and standards are copyrighted. Before downloading an SAE document, you must agree to a license that grants you the rights to view and print the document for your personal use from one computer. You may not alter, in part or in whole, any document, nor may you make copies in any format (print or electronic) for distribution to other users or computers.

[Reaper1]

Oh wat a bunch of CRAP! That sucks! So in other words they are being money grubbing A-holes because they have info people want, but can't get otherwise. Makes me want to violate their terms just because of that! ....goes off to figure out how to do that without getting sued.....

[RoadWarrior222]

Take photographs of it, photographs are original artwork ;) .... you'll still get sued, they'll try and sue you for clearly defined acceptable use these days, though it leaves wriggle room.

[turboshad]

Already downloaded, thx for the link Brian. LOL at the cheapass TD community. It's $20. You'll spend more than that on some dumb movie Friday night.

[Reaper1]

Well...for me I CAN'T spend $20 on some dumb movie because I don't HAVE $20!! LOL

[Shadow]

Already downloaded, thx for the link Brian. LOL at the cheapass TD community. It's $20. You'll spend more than that on some dumb movie Friday night.

Not a cheap --- bro, was just wondering if I could share with the rest, get it? :D

[turboshad]

Well...for me I CAN'T spend $20 on some dumb movie because I don't HAVE $20!! LOL


Not a cheap --- bro, was just wondering if I could share with the rest, get it? :D

Ya, I apologize. I probably shouldn't have said that as if I could have found it somewhere for free I wouldn't have bought it. And if it weren't for copyright laws pretty blatently stated then I would post it up. So just call me a black kettle. :o

But as for SAE being money grabbing A-holes I completely disagree. They are a business and they pay for the authors work and therefore charge to distribute it. Heck, the suspension book I purchased at the same time was $40 cheaper on the SAE site then getting it though Amazon. Doesn't seem so money grabbing to me.

[Shadow]

Ya, I apologize. I probably shouldn't have said that as if I could have found it somewhere for free I wouldn't have bought it. And if it weren't for copyright laws pretty blatently stated then I would post it up. So just call me a black kettle. :o

But as for SAE being money grabbing A-holes I completely disagree. They are a business and they pay for the authors work and therefore charge to distribute it. Heck, the suspension book I purchased at the same time was $40 cheaper on the SAE site then getting it though Amazon. Doesn't seem so money grabbing to me.

I think it's completly relative to what your real intentions are. My Real intentions are to try and put my FWD Shelby Charger into the 9's, almost in it's current state. So to me, like you, 20 buc is a deal to read this kind of document.

For ppl who have more of a passing fancy, it prob isn't worth the 20.00 viewing price.

[Shadow]

It is a very in depth article IMO (more so than I was originally thinking) and does shead some serious light on a # of Q's I had. In case anyones wondering, it's 27 pages long, about 6 pages of text and 19 pages of results (graphs, tables ect).

I'm going to digest it and give my opinion "in a nut shell" in the coming days. Pretty sure I can legitimatly do that?

[Reaper1]

Yeah, there's not an issue for giving reviews! LOL :thumb:

[Shadow]

Well, after reading and digesting this for a while I can say with absolute certainty.......It's All good! :thumb:

Anyone who's looking for a more "in depth" analogy, just look for me at SDAC and we can STS over a brewskie! :nod:

---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:55 PM ----------


Ok, finally made enough progess to put up a couple of pics. The first pic is the revised L-body geometry, as it sits on the jig. Second is stock geometry, on the jig as well. I'll put some pics of the K-frame that will use stock LCA's tomorrow.

K, time to get things BOT! Updates?

[turbovanman²]

Anyone who's looking for a more "in depth" analogy, just look for me at SDAC and we can STS over a brewskie! :nod:

Seems like a few cases wouldn't even cover it, lol.

[Shadow]

Seems like a few cases wouldn't even cover it, lol.

If that's an offer, I'm willing to give it a go and find out! :thumb:

[turbovanman²]

If that's an offer, I'm willing to give it a go and find out! :thumb:

Not sure I'd be awake after a few cases of beer, lol. :eyebrows:

[Shadow]

Not sure I'd be awake after a few cases of beer, lol. :eyebrows:

Maybe not, but I guarantee my explanation would make perfect sense! :lol:

[Reaper1]

Can we try the explination without the beer...on this thread? :D

[turboshad]

Can we try the explination without the beer...on this thread? :D

Maybe start a new thread as this one is intended for the sale of a product. Plus if it is in the suspension section people will find it easier.

[Reaper1]

Maybe start a new thread as this one is intended for the sale of a product. Plus if it is in the suspension section people will find it easier.

True statement. I will do that! :thumb:

[Reaper1]

At the suggestion of DJ, I started a new thread in the suspension section dedicated to the discussion of the altered suspension goemetry. Please let's go there and fill it with useful information for all to see! :thumb:

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?57217-Revised-suspension-geometry-anti-lift-dive-discussion&p=785079#post785079

[Polygon]

Subscribed!

I will certainly be interested as soon as you have one that can accommodate the front sway bar.

[Shadow]

Ok, finally made enough progess to put up a couple of pics. The first pic is the revised L-body geometry, as it sits on the jig. Second is stock geometry, on the jig as well. I'll put some pics of the K-frame that will use stock LCA's tomorrow.

Bump for pics! How's the swaybar fight going? Update! :)

[RoadWarrior222]

How's the swaybar fight going?

Oh man, what a mental picture, two guys going at it quarterstaves style with swaybars and getting shaken silly by the vibrations every time they clash, LOL :D

[turbo2point2]

Bump for pics! How's the swaybar fight going? Update! :)

I'll get some more pics loaded. The sway bar is winning at the moment. I will have the car on the lift this week so I can have another look at the s/b issue.

[Polygon]

I'll get some more pics loaded. The sway bar is winning at the moment. I will have the car on the lift this week so I can have another look at the s/b issue.

Ah, you'll win eventually.

I can't wait for you to finish the sway bar mounts. Of course, that's probably going to effect what class I'm in for auto-X.

[Polygon]

Any updates?

I'm dying to buy one of these.

[GLHSHELBY]

Any updates?

I'm dying to buy one of these.
I`m still interested in the outcome with sway bars

[86seeS]

As am i

[turbo2point2]

Thanks for the interest guys. As much as I would like to report that the swaybar is now an option, it is not the case. There is just not enough market for these to build a new jig that will allow a sway bar. However, I will still offer the non-sway bar k-frame.

[Johnny]

GOT to have swaybars on it :)

Looks like nice work by what I saw!

[Shadow]

Just an FYI for all you guys bent on the sway bar. The Charger has no swaybar and I will autocross the car With NO swaybar next year. I moved up from 250"/lb springs to 350"/lb when I installed Brian's tubular crossmember and DJ's tubular heim joint a-arms and added a Polybushings REAR swaybar.

The car is now significantly changed with almost No body roll when hard cornering! (I haven't cornered hard enough to lift a tire yet though) The difference is night and day when compared to the car with stock urathane bushed a-arms and stock crossmember WITH front swaybar! So much so that I can't tell the swaybar isn't there!

good enough for me! :)

[turbovanman²]

But until you actually auto cross, you can't really call it good, that's like saying, it feels strong on the street, must be good for 10's in the 1/4, :eyebrows:

[168glhs1986]

Not sure about a Charger, but you do not need a front sway bar in an Omni if the chassis is setup correctly. We're trying to get more oversteer in the corners anyway so why stiffen it?

[Ondonti]

But until you actually auto cross, you can't really call it good, that's like saying, it feels strong on the street, must be good for 10's in the 1/4, :eyebrows:
Agreed.
Would hate to think I like something until I actually push it to the limits and realize I need 400+# springs to even match OEM style S/T springs with a sway bar.

Sad but the market is basically whatever his car wants.

[Reaper1]

I think if people want a sway bar on this bad enough, they can do it! If you are needing an item like this, then you *should* have the capability to do some welding and modification! LOL

[Polygon]

Just an FYI for all you guys bent on the sway bar. The Charger has no swaybar and I will autocross the car With NO swaybar next year. I moved up from 250"/lb springs to 350"/lb when I installed Brian's tubular crossmember and DJ's tubular heim joint a-arms and added a Polybushings REAR swaybar.

The car is now significantly changed with almost No body roll when hard cornering! (I haven't cornered hard enough to lift a tire yet though) The difference is night and day when compared to the car with stock urathane bushed a-arms and stock crossmember WITH front swaybar! So much so that I can't tell the swaybar isn't there!

good enough for me! :)

Well, I have Konis and Eibachs. I assume that wouldn't go so well without some stiffer springs?

[The Pope]

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/HSS-23391063_NT.jpg
wouldn't be that tough to add some flat stock to the tubes and then a set of universal braket / bushings. The sway bars are pretty simple. BTW cars with spring tight enough to negate the sway bar will beat the snot out of you and skip on rough pavement. Great for autocross and drag racing but will suck on the street on a DD. Does a DD need this K frame?

[turbovanman²]

Does a DD need this K frame?

Everyone needs this K-frame. If I could afford it, I'd have one.

[zin]

Everyone needs this K-frame. If I could afford it, I'd have one.

+1 to that!

Though I expect that if you are running coil-overs you could run a short soft(er) spring to soak up the minor bumps and smooth out the ride, and pick up the higher rate/main spring to maintain handling.

Mike

[Polygon]

My concern is that I run Konis/Eibachs. I'm not running coil-overs. I don't want to have to run such a high spring rate to compensate for the lack of the sway bar that when I am driving it on the street it turns my spinal column to dust. This car is a cruiser but I would like to take it to track days and auto-x, without having to swap springs out.

I am REALLY interested in getting this.

[MNmopar]

My concern is that I run Konis/Eibachs. I'm not running coil-overs. I don't want to have to run such a high spring rate to compensate for the lack of the sway bar that when I am driving it on the street it turns my spinal column to dust. This car is a cruiser but I would like to take it to track days and auto-x, without having to swap springs out.

I am REALLY interested in getting this.

My thoughts exactly.:)

[Shadow]

But until you actually auto cross, you can't really call it good, that's like saying, it feels strong on the street, must be good for 10's in the 1/4, :eyebrows:

Actually, that works for some ppl. I have yet to "feel" something changed or different in the Charger and Not have it play out nearly Exactly as I "felt" it would ;)

[Shadow]

Not sure about a Charger, but you do not need a front sway bar in an Omni if the chassis is setup correctly. We're trying to get more oversteer in the corners anyway so why stiffen it?

This is what I thought, good to know!



+1 to that!

Though I expect that if you are running coil-overs you could run a short soft(er) spring to soak up the minor bumps and smooth out the ride, and pick up the higher rate/main spring to maintain handling.

Mike

Not sure what ride your thinking of smoothing out? The Charger INSTANTLY rode smoother than it ever has with the hiem joint, WAY smoother than with the factory OR Poly bushings. I can understand ppl not being able to wrap their heads around a solid joint feeling softer/smoother than rubber, but it comes down to the function of it. Blew my mind that I chose to do this for drag racing and it transformed my car for the street! I couldn't be happier!!!!!!


My concern is that I run Konis/Eibachs. I'm not running coil-overs. I don't want to have to run such a high spring rate to compensate for the lack of the sway bar that when I am driving it on the street it turns my spinal column to dust. This car is a cruiser but I would like to take it to track days and auto-x, without having to swap springs out.

I am REALLY interested in getting this.

I think you might have missunderstood what I ment. The Charger is Not harsh on the street, Not at all! I put the 350lb springs in because I thought it would need it after reading up on pro-lift (seemed to make sense to me) The car responded by being More responsive and while it corrected my sloppy jownsy front end, it is completly confortable!

I don't know IF I need the 350lb springs or wether I could go back to the 250lb and what the difference would be. But I couldn't imagine wanting it to be any SOFTER!

Now, after cutting a 1.56 60' and following that with a 1.59 60' (so it's not a fluk or timing error) the 350lb springs are obviously staying! (I'm not changing a damn thing and could you blame me?)

I personaly think that the rear poly swaybar had a huge part in the decreased body roll and worked hand-in-hand with the front pro-lift suspension and a-arms in allowing me Not to need a front swaybar.

Now I know whatever I say, ppl are going to want to see this thing autocross before they believe a word! lol (no sweat, I'm use to it by now) but I'm still going to give my best honest opinion to those that want some real feedback!

[Polygon]

I think you might have missunderstood what I ment. The Charger is Not harsh on the street, Not at all! I put the 350lb springs in because I thought it would need it after reading up on pro-lift (seemed to make sense to me) The car responded by being More responsive and while it corrected my sloppy jownsy front end, it is completly confortable!

I don't know IF I need the 350lb springs or wether I could go back to the 250lb and what the difference would be. But I couldn't imagine wanting it to be any SOFTER!

Now, after cutting a 1.56 60' and following that with a 1.59 60' (so it's not a fluk or timing error) the 350lb springs are obviously staying! (I'm not changing a damn thing and could you blame me?)

I personaly think that the rear poly swaybar had a huge part in the decreased body roll and worked hand-in-hand with the front pro-lift suspension and a-arms in allowing me Not to need a front swaybar.

Now I know whatever I say, ppl are going to want to see this thing autocross before they believe a word! lol (no sweat, I'm use to it by now) but I'm still going to give my best honest opinion to those that want some real feedback!

Ah, ok.

I am going to be getting the rear sway bar, and I'd like to get the tubular front arms as well. Do you know the spring rate of the Pro Kit front springs by chance? I just don't know what springs I could run besides these on the Koni struts unless I did the coil-over conversion.

[Shadow]

Ah, ok.

I am going to be getting the rear sway bar, and I'd like to get the tubular front arms as well. Do you know the spring rate of the Pro Kit front springs by chance? I just don't know what springs I could run besides these on the Koni struts unless I did the coil-over conversion.

I don't now what the spring rate would be (maybe someone else does?) but I would hazard a guess at 250-300"lbs. You Do have an advantage over me though. The coil-overs I'm running are home-made from MP struts and have No dampening adjustment. So you should be able to dial in your set-up better than me.

[GLHNSLHT2]

my 2801's are too soft for the spherical bearing a-arms. I'd like to try the 2804's as I also don't want to be jarred to death and I like my cars stiff but there's overkill. 400lb springs in a stock Lbody is back killing within a block, been there, driven that.

[Shadow]

my 2801's are too soft for the spherical bearing a-arms. I'd like to try the 2804's as I also don't want to be jarred to death and I like my cars stiff but there's overkill. 400lb springs in a stock Lbody is back killing within a block, been there, driven that.

IF your talking about 400lb spring in the Back of an L-body....Agree. IF your talking about my 350lb Front springs, your on drugs! lol

Don't forget, this is with a Pro Lift cross member, totally different than how these springs would feel on stock crossmember.

[Polygon]

I don't now what the spring rate would be (maybe someone else does?) but I would hazard a guess at 250-300"lbs. You Do have an advantage over me though. The coil-overs I'm running are home-made from MP struts and have No dampening adjustment. So you should be able to dial in your set-up better than me.

Hmm, hopefully closer to the 300# area. I can't remember if they're the 2801 or the 2804. I think I'm going to start saving for one of these and buy it along with the rear sway bar over the winter. Maybe I can put away enough to get the control arms as well.

[GLHNSLHT2]

IF your talking about 400lb spring in the Back of an L-body....Agree. IF your talking about my 350lb Front springs, your on drugs! lol

Don't forget, this is with a Pro Lift cross member, totally different than how these springs would feel on stock crossmember.


The spherical bearings will make the springs do more work so you need to run a higher rate spring to compensate. I said STOCK Lbody that 400lb springs were way way way too much. Your 350's probably feel more like 250's in a stock LBody.

[zin]

My comment was to address Polygon's concerns of a harsh ride in his car if he got this K member and found the ride uncomfortable in a DD mode.

I get the feeling that the rigidity of the K member and arms allow the suspension to actually work as it should. A stock bushing style, poly or not will allow much more deflection, with the accompanying instability /harshness.

With the dual springs /rates, your car might cruise like a Caddy!

Mike

[Reaper1]

Polygon, I've been running my Shelby Z without a front swaybar for a while now. I have the dual pivot K-frame, PB bushings in stamped A-arms, Koni's and P-body Eibach's (trimmed). I've not been able to make a quantifiable measurement, but on the street I can't push the car hard enough to actually notice a difference in body lean angle.

[RoadWarrior222]

Not sure what ride your thinking of smoothing out? The Charger INSTANTLY rode smoother than it ever has with the hiem joint, WAY smoother than with the factory OR Poly bushings. I can understand ppl not being able to wrap their heads around a solid joint feeling softer/smoother than rubber, but it comes down to the function of it. Blew my mind that I chose to do this for drag racing and it transformed my car for the street! I couldn't be happier!!!!!!

I think you might have missunderstood what I ment. The Charger is Not harsh on the street, Not at all! I put the 350lb springs in because I thought it would need it after reading up on pro-lift (seemed to make sense to me) The car responded by being More responsive and while it corrected my sloppy jownsy front end, it is completly confortable!

When people say such things about handling kits or packages for say a current gen Mustang, and it's fitted to a one or two year old car, I believe them. However, I have a hard time when it's on older platforms... due to the new shiny parts merely replacing worn to hell stock parts, thus the comparison is inexact.

In my experience, your front end is only sloppy and jouncy on the street when it needs repair. Something is wrong with it. Autocross, or circuit where you can actually run at 10/10 you might have complaints, but on the street you're not driving at more than 8/10 unless you're a psychopath, and probably only on rare occasions when you find a nice twisty empty backroad, you're not driving round the city like that.

Hence I mistrust the "OMG it's like night and day" type of hyperbole, because I can only assume that the poster merely went from a dysfunctional stock suspension to one that was fixed, yet it being impossible to tell from such comments whether it's actually better than a functional stock suspension.

[Shadow]

When people say such things about handling kits or packages for say a current gen Mustang, and it's fitted to a one or two year old car, I believe them. However, I have a hard time when it's on older platforms... due to the new shiny parts merely replacing worn to hell stock parts, thus the comparison is inexact.

In my experience, your front end is only sloppy and jouncy on the street when it needs repair. Something is wrong with it. Autocross, or circuit where you can actually run at 10/10 you might have complaints, but on the street you're not driving at more than 8/10 unless you're a psychopath, and probably only on rare occasions when you find a nice twisty empty backroad, you're not driving round the city like that.

Hence I mistrust the "OMG it's like night and day" type of hyperbole, because I can only assume that the poster merely went from a dysfunctional stock suspension to one that was fixed, yet it being impossible to tell from such comments whether it's actually better than a functional stock suspension.

Damn it, he's right! I've been running 10's at 140mph on wore out ball joints and bushings and my coil overs were Fawked! lol :wave1:

[zin]

I get RW's point about replacing old,possibly worn out parts accounting for a portion of the improvement, but I hope he can see the folly in discounting the improvements specifically engineered parts bring.

Believe it or not, we do have some pretty intelligent people coming up with these things...

Mike

[Shadow]

I was going to post my drag results for those that hadn't heard, but in the interest of keeping this Good thread "folly free" I decided against it, as they are far more mind boggling than the meger feedback I gave on how these new well designed pieces can transform 35 year old K-based technology. (believe it or not!)

So I will simply say this; They performed as well as I was expecting them to............:eyebrows:

[Reeves]

I am seeing great results as well, compared to my poly bushed, new balljoints, stock K frame that was fully seam welded and gusseted.

Plus, it gives you more room to get your hands/arms in places on the motor that you couldn't easily get to before without removing the K-frame.

I have not yet seen any improvement in ride quality, actually may be a little harsher, but that is because I'm riding on 400 lb front springs with Koni's on full stiff at the moment.

[turbovanman²]

I am seeing great results as well, compared to my poly bushed, new balljoints, stock K frame that was fully seam welded and gusseted.

Plus, it gives you more room to get your hands/arms in places on the motor that you couldn't easily get to before without removing the K-frame.

I have not yet seen any improvement in ride quality, actually may be a little harsher, but that is because I'm riding on 400 lb front springs with Koni's on full stiff at the moment.

What control arms? DJ's?

[Reeves]

What control arms? DJ's?

Yes, sorry, forgot to mention that. I upgraded K-frame and control arms at the same time.

[Shadow]

I have not yet seen any improvement in ride quality, actually may be a little harsher, but that is because I'm riding on 400 lb front springs with Koni's on full stiff at the moment.

Did you run the 400lb springs with Konis full stiff on the previous set-up?

[Reeves]

Did you run the 400lb springs with Konis full stiff on the previous set-up?

Yup...

[Shadow]

Interesting, maybe it's because of how Brutal our roads are around here. I felt the difference the first time I drove it down the side street (actually a 90KM/hr RD) about 5 miles long, but in fairly rough shape.

Going from the 250lb springs to the 350's/ struts remained the same I would say that the old set-up was softer, but harsher if that makes any sense. That is to say that it was too soft of a front suspension for my liking but when you hit a bad strech of road it would give a bang and rough feel as well as big bumps would give a jownsy feel that I now realise was the urathane bushings flexing one way, then the other.

The car is stiffer now, which is great, but it's not harsh at all. I hit a bad part of road and it's like the car absorbes it instead of impacts it. I'm guessing it's a combo of the instant response of the hiem joints + the fact that the springs are now working to a much higher degree. To me (and ppl can think I'm exaggerating all they want) it's the difference of the K-based car it use to be vs the European feeling car it now is (BMW/ Volvo/ Porche) It's stiff and Tight, but increadibly responsive and comfortable.

Now, most ppl don't pay enough attention when they drive to pick 1/2 of this stuff up so I can deff understand them not "getting" how this much could change. There are ppl out there that prefer the "floatation" feel over the feel of a car that gives accurate feedback from the road, so for those ppl they would prob Not like this.

The best way I can sum it up is this; I have a pair of 14lb racing seats that are made of a hard plastic and covered with the S/C seat covers. (so no added foam, just covers and hard plastic seat) I put them in the car when I'm racing it and remove them when I'm driving it on the street because they are brutally harsh on the roads around here. I remember one time several years ago, I went for a quick blast down the side road before heading to the track and the race seats were already in the car. Just driving 5 miles down that road and back was brutal and uncomfortable enough to tell me I would Never run these for any amount of time on the street.

Fast forward to SDAC 21. I installed the seats before I left because there was no way I'm dragging an extra set of buckets with me and swapping them there. Now I should have realised this the first time I took the car up the side street and drove it on the trailor, but it didn't even dawn on me. The race seats don't bother me at all anymore!

I drove the car around at SDAC, took several ppl for a ride in the car (wonder what they thought?) and never was bothered by the harshness of the seats. So much so, that when I got home I drove the car for the rest of the summer that way, including several 300km round trips to the cabin and every time I go into Winnipeg it's a 100km trip + driving around in town. The factory buckets have yet to go back in.

So, take it however you want, I'm just trying to give honest feedback for what I've Experienced, which is what I've always tried to do. I would imagine results may vary because different ppl like different rides (stiff/ floating/ spongy) and have different opinions of things.

To me, these pieces absolutly enhanced every aspect of the cars suspension exactly the way I could have wished for. (picture a wish list and I'm checking everything off here)

Now to the track results; Everything here is based on a good hooking track where the car has netted it's best average 60"s.

Before the tubular crossmember and DJ's hiem joint a-arms; Average good 60's were mid 1.7's with 1.72 being my best average (did this multyple times) and a couple 1.69 and one 1.67.

After the swap and without an alignment (still haven't got in and almost afraid to now); Average good 60's are mid 1.6's with 1.63 being my best average so far and a couple 1.62's and a 1.59 And 1.56! (and I was just getting things sorted out)

So, when I invested in these pieces I was hoping to drop 1 tenth off my 60' And hoping I could get into the 1.5X's. (realistically a 1.58-1.59) Had no idea it would happen this fast, but it did! (really glad I cut that 1.59 60' on my last run or else there would be those who would scream "foul" and say that the 1.56 was just a timing glitch! lol)

I knew that the stars would have to align and several things would have to work out 100% for me to achieve my goal of going 9's with the Charger, specially keeping it a street driver. This is Deff one of the pieces of that puzzle that has worked out 100%+! One of the best investments I've made in the car and I'm just glad that we have members who are willing to make stuff like this available to a small community like ours where "cheap" is the average mid-set!

These pieces were a bargain at this price and I just hope ppl out there realise that! :thumb:

[omni_840]

Yes, sorry, forgot to mention that. I upgraded K-frame and control arms at the same time.

I would love see some pics:)

[Ondonti]

Drag racing results really have nothing to do with RW's valid point. I also don't think Sunday drives were the intended point of the product. More like Sunday drives in a vehicle that has a more serious main purpose.
Subjective arguments about how something feels on the street are not backed up by drag racing results, and when it comes to street driving, nobody ever seems to agree on what they like. Some people like riding on bumpstops and some old people want a waterbed.

Back to back autocross or circuit events would be useful, not sharing preference. I know my preference tends to aim towards anything I am excited about. Thats why I want a certain house very badly while there might be red flags going off to other parties involved.

Sway bar seems pretty important for anyone wanting to turn while maintaining a tolerable ride. Drag cars trying to teach circuit cars about how awesome they can turn won't get you far. Tell me what you know about putting on 300 wide hoosiers and tossing her around. I myself can't give anyone like that advice about turning. I don't think anyone with the product can pull enough G force in a turn to really give an honest answer.
Someone showing otherwise would be cool. I myself am not 100% committed to straight line with my next move forward, and that would still require hacking up the center of the tubular K frame and probably ruining it for that T case. I don't know who races the turns. If nobody does, then who really cares about how good we think it would do?

Best to advertise your strengths (seems to improve short times, axles might be happier?) without starting something that is unproven. My one technical point to make regarding turning is that you are increasing the roll center of the car when you remove weight from the bottom. I have not heard about any quantifiable qualities that will help the car turn. Thats where I would leave it up to the people designing the product to give their input.

I know when most people make tubular subframes, that drag and circuit setups tend to be different. When you build your subframe with advantages, you will often create shortfalls for things you don't care about.

[turbo2point2]

Gang, I am looking to get a few more orders together. I will need a minimum of 3 commited buyers per design to move along.

Also as of the 1st of the new year, these will be getting a price increase to $900.

[Polygon]

Gang, I am looking to get a few more orders together. I will need a minimum of 3 commited buyers per design to move along.

Also as of the 1st of the new year, these will be getting a price increase to $900.

I'm in!

If you were on the fence the price increase should knock you right off!

[Reaper1]

I wish I could be all over this like stink on sh*t. I'm simply not in the financial position to do it with my Masi engine build getting under full swing. AARRGGHH!!! :(

[rx2mazda]

put me in for one B. (Carroll pricing of coarse)

[Reeves]

put me in for one B. (Carroll pricing of coarse)

So, like $1000, but really we won't know cause you'll only tell us the bench pricing?

[Directconnection]

My one technical point to make regarding turning is that you are increasing the roll center of the car when you remove weight from the bottom.

Roll Center is a totally different term for what you are describing, and consists of a few technical intersecting lines/angles of the strut to ball joints, etc...

[minigts]

Gang, I am looking to get a few more orders together. I will need a minimum of 3 commited buyers per design to move along.

Also as of the 1st of the new year, these will be getting a price increase to $900.

Three before this year and they're $800, is that how to read that?

[168glhs1986]

Three before this year and they're $800, is that how to read that?

I thought I saw an original price of $825.00 in the early pages of the thread but I could be wrong. I'd just give him the $900.00 anyway because he's a great guy.

[minigts]

I thought I saw an original price of $825.00 in the early pages of the thread but I could be wrong. I'd just give him the $900.00 anyway because he's a great guy.

That sounds right, I think I just rounded based on the new price. I feel like I'm a great guy as well if you want to give me part of the $75. :D

[turbovanman²]

I wish I could be all over this like stink on sh*t. I'm simply not in the financial position to do it with my Masi engine build getting under full swing. AARRGGHH!!! :(

My issue is life in general, lol.


So, like $1000, but really we won't know cause you'll only tell us the bench pricing?

LMAO! :lol:

[dixiedodge7369]

I really wish my omni was at a point where I could justify spending the cash on it. There's so much more that needs to be done before I can get this. I really hope your making them for a while cuz I will for sure buy one at a later time

[mcsvt]

I'll take one for the Sundance, guess we are going to have to convince DJ to make some more arms...

What was the decision on sway bars? Brian I know you aren't going to include mounts for them, but it's still possible we'll be able to fab something up?

[rx2mazda]

my issue is life in general, lol.

lmao! :lol:

[Shadow]

I'll take one for the Sundance, guess we are going to have to convince DJ to make some more arms...

What was the decision on sway bars? Brian I know you aren't going to include mounts for them, but it's still possible we'll be able to fab something up?

If I thought the Charger needed a sway bar I deff could have made something work. I'm going to hit up the local road course next spring and see what happens, but like I already said, with the rear anti-sway bar and this set-up with DJ's A-arms the Charger has sig Less front body roll than it had before the changes were made.

[stewdaddy23]

Any autocross/roadrace info on these yet?

[86seeS]

Mines installed but havnt driven with it yet. I know that reeves has been running his for a while now

[gkabbt]

As I posted in my project log, last Wednesday I made a trip up to Philidelphia to Brian Slowe's shop and picked up one of these for my Land Speed Rampage:

http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad318/GKABBT/Stuff/K-Member.jpg

Thanks again Brian!
All I can say about Mr. Slowe is WOW! There is so much going at his shop it is incredible. From the work he has done on his car to the transmission stuff he is currently doing to the work on Eric Depenbrok's Spitit.....absolutely incredible. If you get a chance to get to Philly by all means go see Brian.

I have an email in to DJ to see if I can get his control arms for this.....fingers crossed.

Gregg

[wheming]

Is anyone using this on a daily driver/weekend racer?

Longterm impressions/review?
This has been on my radar since first seeing that custom part.
And again, super work Brian!



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[16valvecharger]

Is anyone using this on a daily driver/weekend racer?

Longterm impressions/review?
This has been on my radar since first seeing that custom part.
And again, super work Brian!



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I think Shadow is using this on his Charger. It is a street car.

[fishcleaner]

I don't know if they are going to be made again, but if you have the money get it, you know it won't crack like the factory ones and you have more room underneath, makes changing a rack easy. Here is my review

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?67380-Thank-You-Turboshad-Turbo2point2-and-Rbryant&highlight=

I am working on a small anti-swaybar now for it, I figure something is better than nothing

[Shadow]

Is anyone using this on a daily driver/weekend racer?

Longterm impressions/review?
This has been on my radar since first seeing that custom part.
And again, super work Brian!



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I've had this piece along with DJ's A-arms in the Charger for just over a year now. Took a 1700km trip a few weeks back with my wife and 6-700lbs in the back of the Charger. Car drove awesome, both there (loaded) and back (unloaded).

I said it when I first reviewed this piece, it has completly revolutionized the car. I originaly bought it for the drag race benefits, but I believe the benefits on the street in the pure comfort and "feel", (specially over rough roads that use to just Suck having to drive over) far out-weight the benefits just on the track.

[depenbrok]

Can I have Carroll's since he's in the deadbeat file? Lol

[gkabbt]

I don't know if they are going to be made again, but if you have the money get it, you know it won't crack like the factory ones and you have more room underneath, makes changing a rack easy. Here is my review

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?67380-Thank-You-Turboshad-Turbo2point2-and-Rbryant&highlight=

I am working on a small anti-swaybar now for it, I figure something is better than nothing

When I was there last week, Brian said he was going to make some more but it would be the 1st part of next year.
Lucky for me he had 1 left. Now, I just need DJ's control arms to complete my front suspension trifecta.....like you fishcleaner.


Eric,
The work Brian has done on your car is incredible. Very, very nice.

Gregg

[wheming]

Well if DJ goes back into the control arm business, and Brian makes more next year, maybe these would make good Christmas 2013 presents for Slugmobile!



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[depenbrok]

Thanks Gregg! Would you expect anything less from the Master Fabricator Brian Slowe?:hail:

[GLHSHELBY]

still watching and wanting one also,I gotta have a anti-swaybar though.Next year around march will be great timing for me.Not really wanting it for drag racing just to help balance things out

[iTurbo]

I've been looking into this too. Early next year would be a lot better timing wise for me. I hope another run of control arms will be made to compliment the K-frame though, and some kind of sway bar provision would be nice.