Fullly ported TIII heads and 8 valve heads-looking to offer with dyno proof!

[turbovanman²]

I've mentioned this before but I met a very good head porter, he has been in the game for along time, used to do engine/head work on race bikes, IE the AMA and Formula USA series, drag bikes, before Yoshimura was around and even they used him, and won alot of HP contests, races and racers loved how is engines ran, they weren't peaky, anyhow, he's built alot of good heads, redid my friends ported 1J head and picked up 40 whp on less boost, :wow1: the same truck I raced a few years ago, :eyebrows:

I had him cut apart one of my TIII heads and he says they are good but there is lots of room for improvement. He has a boost flow bench so he can actually test it at boost. I have given him a swirl head for now to play with.

So, if there is any interest, on Wopr's 92 Iroc R/T-stock except for cam gears, 50 trim turbo, FWD Cal and exhaust, I will pay for a stock TIII head to get done, we will do a dyno session, take the head off, have him do it and go back, no tuning except fuel and redyno on the same dyno, same boost and compare.

There will be only 1 porting job, no stages etc, all will get the same and he also plays with the chamber, prices will be around $800 plus parts. If nobody really interested in another head porter, I won't bother as its not worth my time and money.

His flow bench, his name is Farrell-

http://www.flowbenchtech.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=287

[Juggy]

why dont u show us pics of this chopped up head!!

[turbovanman²]

why dont u show us pics of this chopped up head!!

I gotta take pics, I have only a slice, lol. Steve won't be happy, :(

[karlak]

I would be interested. Need to get repairs done first.

[Juggy]

I gotta take pics, I have only a slice, lol. Steve won't be happy, :(

wont be happy your showing pics? or wont be happy that you only got a slice???
wtf was wrong with the head u chopped???

the ports r really nice. other then gasket matching the intake i wouldnt do much more then some bowl work. id love to see what kind of meat there is around the valve guides

could def use lots of exhaust pics :eyebrows:

[4 l-bodies]

Simon,
Having a fully ported whatever (16V or 8V) head will require you to have an intake & exhaust manifold ported to fully realize the ported heads potential. In other words it's not gonna show it's gains (or losses) unless the manifolds are matched to the modified ports on the cylinder head. You could make substantial gains on the cylinder head and it could just get choked off by the manifolds. You change the manifolds to rectify that, then you've changed more than just the head and the #'s are distorted that way too. For example running a highly modified ported head (exhaust side) with a stock exhaust manifold could be so turbulent it could flow less than a stocker. On the intake side, the intake could become the bottleneck. Do you understand what I'm getting at here?
Todd

[turbovanman²]

Simon,
Having a fully ported whatever (16V or 8V) head will require you to have an intake & exhaust manifold ported to fully realize the ported heads potential. In other words it's not gonna show it's gains (or losses) unless the manifolds are matched to the modified ports on the cylinder head. You could make substantial gains on the cylinder head and it could just get choked off by the manifolds. You change the manifolds to rectify that, then you've changed more than just the head and the #'s are distorted that way too. For example running a highly modified ported head (exhaust side) with a stock exhaust manifold could be so turbulent it could flow less than a stocker. On the intake side, the intake could become the bottleneck. Do you understand what I'm getting at here?
Todd


I do, but then your choking the heads potential with the manifolds and I guess it should be assumed if your getting a decent head, you should have a good intake and exhaust manifold's. :p I really don't want to get into a war but like i said he's been doing this 30+ years and made alot of fast engines. The back to back is also a good test of his abilities, wouldn't you think?

[puppet]

It's great that you found a fella with his experience to work with you on something like this .. stuff like this doesn't happen every day and for some, not even in a lifetime. It's always nice to have another pair of eyes working with you. .... slip the guy a Ghead while you're at it.

[Juggy]

If nobody really interested in another head porter, I won't bother as its not worth my time and money.



im still trying to figure out why it would cost you $$$ when its someone elses car???
if your offering to pay for a port job ill send my head out!! lol

[johnl]

Is this Tom Farrell? long lost and formerly of Los Angeles?

[turbovanman²]

It's great that you found a fella with his experience to work with you on something like this .. stuff like this doesn't happen every day and for some, not even in a lifetime. It's always nice to have another pair of eyes working with you. .... slip the guy a Ghead while you're at it.

He has one, I gave him a swirl head to cut up and he's figured out how to make it flow, he actually said they are not as bad as I told him, lol. He has a 287 head of mine, I am going to get him to do it and sell it, he mentioned the chamber sucks and he'll fix that.


im still trying to figure out why it would cost you $$$ when its someone elses car???
if your offering to pay for a port job ill send my head out!! lol

Why, do prove he can do it and to get his name out, helps me and him make some money and you guys a product that works. But at this point, probably won't, I am broke and we have alot of head porters already so I guess we'll see how my new head works out. :nod:


Is this Tom Farrell? long lost and formerly of Los Angeles?


No, Farrell is his first name.

[puppet]

He has one, I gave him a swirl head to cut up and he's figured out how to make it flow, he actually said they are not as bad as I told him, lol. He has a 287 head of mine, I am going to get him to do it and sell it, he mentioned the chamber sucks and he'll fix that.cc on the g-head chamber. Todd had mentioned to me a few years ago how todays chamber shape/thinking has favored the chambers like on our swirl.

I am interested in what his approach to "fix it" will involve. That welding thread was intended to see about the practicality of doing some work in the bathtubs chamber ... to more "modernize" the shape and to diminish some of the volume. Basically mimicking the swirl chamber @ the short turn(s) and maybe also filling a little on the exhaust side of the plug boss.

Would like to know his reasoning on the positive flow bench aside from a better understanding of the flow dynamics of a running engine. An invite here and an open thread would be pretty cool.

[turbovanman²]

cc on the g-head chamber. Todd had mentioned to me a few years ago how todays chamber shape/thinking has favored the chambers like on our swirl.

I am interested in what his approach to "fix it" will involve. That welding thread was intended to see about the practicality of doing some work in the bathtubs chamber ... to more "modernize" the shape and to diminish some of the volume. Basically mimicking the swirl chamber @ the short turn(s) and maybe also filling a little on the exhaust side of the plug boss.

Would like to know his reasoning on the positive flow bench aside from a better understanding of the flow dynamics of a running engine. An invite here and an open thread would be pretty cool.

No welding is needed, he is using Epoxy in the swirl port and its the location of the spark plug on the G-head that's an issue, so'll be address that with grinding.

I haven't talked to him since last Saturday as he does this as well as his other job.

[Juggy]

Why, do prove he can do it and to get his name out, helps me and him make some money and you guys a product that works. But at this point, probably won't, I am broke and we have alot of head porters already so I guess we'll see how my new head works out. :nod:

ok, you want to get the guys name out, so your saying your paying for the port job on wopr's head??? and when you say, help make "me and him" some money, what exactly are we paying you for if hes doing all the work? lol

if someone wants to make a name for their self, maybe they should think about doing a "pro bono" or whatever the heck its called.....

[turbovanman²]

ok, you want to get the guys name out, so your saying your paying for the port job on wopr's head??? and when you say, help make "me and him" some money, what exactly are we paying you for if hes doing all the work? lol

if someone wants to make a name for their self, maybe they should think about doing a "pro bono" or whatever the heck its called.....

You obviously don't know how business works, lol.

Ok business 101, if the vendor sells a product, they are sold that product for a discount, so then they mark it up to make some money, this is called making a profit. If you don't do this, you go bankrupt or ask for a government bailout. :p

How do you know he isn't giving me a deal on the porting? Shouldn't assume. :eyebrows:

I would never expect someone to give me free port work, especially in the turbo dodge market, we are all mostly cheap azz's, :p

---------- Post added at 12:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 PM ----------

Forgot to add, he's going to look into relieving the valve spring pressure thru playing with valve height and machining down the spring pocket, :nod: EDIT, this is for the TIII head, to avoid buying Ti retainers or modifying stockers.

[turbovanman²]

Talked to him last night, he's very excited about the 8 valve head, lol, lots of material to work with he said.

He also trained with Smokey Yunick and Grump Jenkins, pretty cool, :nod:

[4 l-bodies]

[/COLOR]Forgot to add, he's going to look into relieving the valve spring pressure thru playing with valve height and machining down the spring pocket, :nod:
Simon, You guys better take a good look at the seat material thickness on a swirl head. Between cutting that down and raising the roof, your gonna be flirtin with disaster IMO. There is some material to play with, but not huge amounts. Anyway, why are you concerned with relieving spring pressure? The 8V motors don't seem to chew up valvetrain parts like the Lotus head from having too much seat pressure. Are you trying to get more installed height or reducing seat pressure? I can easily get to 1.7xx installed height with the right combination of parts and w/o sinking valves.
Todd

[boost geek]

Hey Simon, did you get those heads from Don yet?

[turbovanman²]

Simon, You guys better take a good look at the seat material thickness on a swirl head. Between cutting that down and raising the roof, your gonna be flirtin with disaster IMO. There is some material to play with, but not huge amounts. Anyway, why are you concerned with relieving spring pressure? The 8V motors don't seem to chew up valvetrain parts like the Lotus head from having too much seat pressure. Are you trying to get more installed height or reducing seat pressure? I can easily get to 1.7xx installed height with the right combination of parts and w/o sinking valves.
Todd

Its for the TIII head, thought I'd been more clear, lol.


Hey Simon, did you get those heads from Don yet?

No, Don's been busy. I can't wait to boost flow the 655 head, giddy up, :nod:

[Juggy]

I can't wait to boost flow the 655 head, giddy up, :nod:

awesome, you the man! now get me some TIII head chop pics n ill be really impressed :D

so im guessing there isnt much meat to work with on the TIII head? as he is saying there is lots to play with on the swirl head......I have a ported swirly here I had raised the roof on. each port roof has a different angle leading into the bowl, as I was trying to guessimate or "laser eye" a nice angle to get it done, without breaking through! lol. I was very pleased with the swirl head afterwards. I thought I had the port looking better then a G head one (or very similar) combine that with the swirl chamber and it should work nice :D

[turbovanman²]

awesome, you the man! now get me some TIII head chop pics n ill be really impressed :D

so im guessing there isnt much meat to work with on the TIII head? as he is saying there is lots to play with on the swirl head......I have a ported swirly here I had raised the roof on. each port roof has a different angle leading into the bowl, as I was trying to guessimate or "laser eye" a nice angle to get it done, without breaking through! lol. I was very pleased with the swirl head afterwards. I thought I had the port looking better then a G head one (or very similar) combine that with the swirl chamber and it should work nice :D

I'll post pics of the TIII head later, :eyebrows:

There is more meat on the swirl head than the TIII valve head, but we were using a Dunn casting, which is thinner than the production casting.

[turbovanman²]

Pics as promised. I bought this head all welded up, then after numerous attempts by my local head shop, still wouldn't seal and as you can see by the arrows, it was still badly cracked even after all that, :(


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20engine%20build%20and%20van%20pics/Picture001.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20engine%20build%20and%20van%20pics/Picture002.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20engine%20build%20and%20van%20pics/Picture003.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20engine%20build%20and%20van%20pics/Picture004.jpg

[puppet]

I can't wait to boost flow the 655 head, giddy up, :nod:Huh? :confused:

[turbovanman²]

Huh? :confused:

Its a PRESSURE flow bench, so he can run BOOST thru ports, :p

[puppet]

Its a PRESSURE flow bench, so he can run BOOST thru ports, :pI had thought he was using the blower to produce a greater depression. ... trying to simulate a running engine to see the effects of that on a ports flow vs turbulence ... calculating backward to better determine rpm/lift points as it relates to a specific heads port/runner shapes.

The blowing through confuses me. Maybe more info on the test set-up/mechanics behind it? Don't see what blowing additional cfm through a port means by itself .. other than coming to the same conclusions a regular bench would show?

[turbovanman²]

I had thought he was using the blower to produce a greater depression. ... trying to simulate a running engine to see the effects of that on a ports flow vs turbulence ... calculating backward to better determine rpm/lift points as it relates to a specific heads port/runner shapes.

The blowing through confuses me. Maybe more info on the test set-up/mechanics behind it? Don't see what blowing additional cfm through a port means by itself .. other than coming to the same conclusions a regular bench would show?

He can simulate actual boost thru the port, see post 1, link to his machine.

A regular flowbench sucks, literally, :p

[Shadow]

A regular flowbench sucks, literally, :p

If the operator knows how to use his/her ears as well as his/her eyes, a regular flow bench is all that's needed. ;)

[turbovanman²]

If the operator knows how to use his/her ears as well as his/her eyes, a regular flow bench is all that's needed. ;)

Yes and no, the boosted bench can give up stuff that a flowbench can't. Eitherway, its a tool, if you can't use it, then it doesn't matter if it sucks or blows. :p

[puppet]

He can simulate actual boost thru the port, see post 1, link to his machine.
I saw bench ... thought test procedures were other than "blowing into ports" to simulate "increased cfm".

Might be helpful if we start looking at FI in lb/hr (mass) vs cfm (volume)?
A FI cylinder doesn't process twice the cfm (volume) @2BAR .. it processes twice the mass. How does his rig duplicate that?

[turbovanman²]

I saw bench ... thought test procedures were other than "blowing into ports" to simulate "increased cfm".

Might be helpful if we start looking at FI in lb/hr (mass) vs cfm (volume)?
A FI cylinder doesn't process twice the cfm (volume) @2BAR .. it processes twice the mass. How does his rig duplicate that?

Not sure, but I'll see how it all works when I get my TIII head back, :nod:

[turbovanman²]

Quick update, he's almost done, had to make me new valve guides, cheaper than buying new OEM ones, :nod:

Port close to being finished-

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20engine%20build%20and%20van%20pics/MynewTIIIportedhead.jpg

stock intake, .100-.500- 96.2, 175.5, 227.6, 243.5, 246.2
stock exhaust, 56.4, 126.8, 168.4, 191.6, 203.5

ported intake, .100-.500- 97.6, 180.0, 237.3, 260.1, 274.8
ported exhaust, 68.7, 140.2, 181.3, 204.5, 220.0

ported with a valve job, intake, .100-.600-96.6, 186.8, 244.8, 268.6, 277.2, 280.0
exhaust with valve job, 75.6, 151.2, 196.7, 218.2, 230.3, 239.5

Should do alright, should be alot of fun. :partywoot:

[GLHNSLHT2]

I like this format when viewing head flow.

Intake
Lift - Stock / Ported - % increase
.100 - 96.2 / 97.6 - 1.5%
.200 - 175.5 / 180.0 - 2.5%
.300 - 227.6 / 244.8 - 7.5%
.400 - 243.5 / 260.1 - 6.8%
.500 - 246.2 / 274.8 - 11.6%

Exhaust
Lift - Stock / Ported - % increase
.100 - 56.4 / 68.7 - 21.8%
.200 - 126.8 / 140.2 - 10.5%
.300 - 168.4 / 181.3 - 7.6%
.400 - 191.6 / 204.5 - 6.7%
.500 - 203.5 / 220.0 - 8.1%

[boost geek]

Did you chop that Magnum head yet?

[turbovanman²]

I like this format when viewing head flow.

Intake
Lift - Stock / Ported - % increase
.100 - 96.2 / 97.6 - 1.5%
.200 - 175.5 / 180.0 - 2.5%
.300 - 227.6 / 244.8 - 7.5%
.400 - 243.5 / 260.1 - 6.8%
.500 - 246.2 / 274.8 - 11.6%

Exhaust
Lift - Stock / Ported - % increase
.100 - 56.4 / 68.7 - 21.8%
.200 - 126.8 / 140.2 - 10.5%
.300 - 168.4 / 181.3 - 7.6%
.400 - 191.6 / 204.5 - 6.7%
.500 - 203.5 / 220.0 - 8.1%

Me too, but I am lazy, and you did it for me, :p


Did you chop that Magnum head yet?

I think he did, he'll be around in the next few days.

[Juggy]

I like this format when viewing head flow.

Intake
Lift - Stock / Ported - % increase
.100 - 96.2 / 97.6 - 1.5%
.200 - 175.5 / 180.0 - 2.5%
.300 - 227.6 / 244.8 - 7.5%
.400 - 243.5 / 260.1 - 6.8%
.500 - 246.2 / 274.8 - 11.6%

Exhaust
Lift - Stock / Ported - % increase
.100 - 56.4 / 68.7 - 21.8%
.200 - 126.8 / 140.2 - 10.5%
.300 - 168.4 / 181.3 - 7.6%
.400 - 191.6 / 204.5 - 6.7%
.500 - 203.5 / 220.0 - 8.1%

now do it with the valve job!!! LOL

simon how many angle valve job??? the one guy i was working with used a 5 angle....but the guy who did my T3 head im pretty sure is just a 3 angle....i dont know what stock is lol

[turbovanman²]

I would assume 5 angle, stock is 2 angle, :p

[turbovanman²]

More pics-

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20engine%20build%20and%20van%20pics/workcamera205.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20engine%20build%20and%20van%20pics/workcamera206.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20engine%20build%20and%20van%20pics/workcamera207.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20engine%20build%20and%20van%20pics/workcamera208.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20engine%20build%20and%20van%20pics/workcamera209.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20engine%20build%20and%20van%20pics/workcamera214.jpg

[RoadWarrior222]

then after numerous attempts by my local head shop
Well there's yer problem, shoulda taken it to a machinist rather than your local stoner supply emporium. :D


If the operator knows how to use his/her ears as well as his/her eyes, a regular flow bench is all that's needed. ;)
Not really, higher speeds and densities can have odd and counter-intuitive effects on flow. Of course it could be done by just taking a wild arsed guess, but that's not much better than porting N/A without a conventional bench.



simon how many angle valve job??? the one guy i was working with used a 5 angle....but the guy who did my T3 head im pretty sure is just a 3 angle....i dont know what stock is lol

Well there's some guys swear by magic angles and there's some guys say get as many angles as possible... but from what I've seen "running the math" is that a surface has to be pretty broad, on the order of a quarter inch or more, for flow to attach to it properly, so I wonder if the magic angle guys aren't closer than the multi angle ones.... and if you figure that flow is gonna stay attached to something more approximating a smooth curve... you'd be right...for a fairly large radius..... fact is, it's detaching way back up the port, because there just ain't room for a curve like that in most heads.... by time it gets to the valve it's a case of picking the best shove, trip or pull that will get your crowd of angry drunks individually out the door of the bar in the fastest manner, rather than standing there trying to gently persuade them.


On the "it won't show any gains unless it's matched to headers and manifold" POV.... 9 times out of 10 it will show some good gains I would think, although maybe half it's potential when these components are optimised... the 10th time is when it's ported specifically for a high lift long duration race cam that it hasn't got yet.... done to support stock to street/race cams, it should show gains on the stocker.

[Badger]

Id like to see some #'s on 8 valve stuff

[boost geek]

Id like to see some #'s on 8 valve stuff

Ya, get to it!:whip:

[Directconnection]

Valve jobs are all dependant on the port. Some ports need a radiused valve job (bottom cut is a radius), some don't. Matter of fact, I spent $40 on a certain Newen cutter reccomended by someone very respected in the TM porting biz, and it indeed picked up flow, but only on the intakes. On the exhausts... it LOST flow, and that's where a radius cutter is *supposed* to excel at. (this was on a ported G head) So, the exhausts ended up getting a conventional 3 angle that I cna't reveal the exact angles :)

BTW: the thinnest the 45 is, the better the flow.... but at the expense of poor heat transfer which breaks down the seat/valve sealing. Also... there are 50 degree seats and more... (on the Hendricks SB2 heads we got it had some really funky angles) Those flow even better, but the valve takes a beating as it's trying to drive past the seat vs sealing.

[Juggy]

knife edge looks like its angled...is that to try and help the air swirl down the port and create velocity?

[turbovanman²]

Id like to see some #'s on 8 valve stuff

Ok, I'll dig them up, I have a nicely ported G head, +1mm valves. :eyebrows:


knife edge looks like its angled...is that to try and help the air swirl down the port and create velocity?

Not sure, I'll ask him.

[Badger]

exactly what Id like to see. Ported and cleaned up G head. For whatever reason reason I have better luck getting cars through smog with a G head on the car (as opposed to the 782 stuff) dont know why that is though?!

[BadAssPerformance]

Thread Closed per request. No longer available.