whats it take to change a TD to E85?

[86seeS]

Thought there was a thread on this before but I couldnt find it. Want to do this in my charger

[Vigo]

Bigger injectors and a cal..

[cordes]

Bigger injectors and a cal..

I don't know that I would leave it at that. Most of our fuel systems would not be very happy with the alky running through them in that high a concentration these days.

Anything Al should be anodized, and you really should use SS for everything else. I know that Ethanol isn't anywhere near as bad as Methanol, but it still isn't the most friendly thing in the world.

IIRC I had a pretty decent alky thread on here a while back.

[DodgeZ]

the new search won't let you look for "e85"

this maybe helpful
http://www.google.com/search?q=e85+site%3Aturbo-mopar.com

---------- Post added at 10:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:55 AM ----------

well, try this since sprayinlog has e85 in his sig.

http://www.google.com/search?q=e85+site%3Aturbo-mopar.com

[cordes]

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?20091-E85&highlight=ethanol

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?14894-E85-Ethanol-waste-of-time-or-worth-while&highlight=ethanol

[86seeS]

I got a brand new tank, walbro 255, brand new +20, new fue injection line, and new fuel lines the whole way. So all I need is the cal right?

[cordes]

I got a brand new tank, walbro 255, brand new +20, new fue injection line, and new fuel lines the whole way. So all I need is the cal right?

You'll need much larger injectors. I believe the FFVs ran something near +20s stock. I've done calculations and come up with 95lb. injectors for near 400HP if memory serves me right.

There is another thread which is very recent where a guy was suggesting 160lb injectors based on his experience running E85 in a boosted vehicle.

[BadAssPerformance]

Not a fan of the E85 fad... but if you must, get a FFV rail and injectors as the SS will hold up better. If you want more than stock boost, like Cordes said you will need bigger injectors... yes the stock FFV injectors flow close to the +20%ers

[cordes]

Not a fan of the E85 fad... but if you must, get a FFV rail and injectors as the SS will hold up better. If you want more than stock boost, like Cordes said you will need bigger injectors... yes the stock FFV injectors flow close to the +20%ers

I think you'll need more than +20s just to accommodate the added fuel need when running the E85. The FFV cars had +20s to meet the fuel demands of the NA cars...

I do agree that a FFV rail would probably be the best cheap way to go.

[BadAssPerformance]

It all depends on how stock or modified he wants to go. I think they would be OK for a stock setup, but dont take my word for it, never looked into using that garbage ;)

[cordes]

It all depends on how stock or modified he wants to go. I think they would be OK for a stock setup, but dont take my word for it, never looked into using that garbage ;)

From my research a couple of years ago, +20s will be a little small for even stock boost levels. Any mods at all and they won't be enough. This is all on paper of course.

[BadAssPerformance]

What does your paper say about +20%ers running 27psi thru a stock Garrett, stock IC, etc on 100 unleaded? ;)

[DodgeZ]

Not a fan of the E85 fad... but if you must, get a FFV rail and injectors as the SS will hold up better. If you want more than stock boost, like Cordes said you will need bigger injectors... yes the stock FFV injectors flow close to the +20%ers

You think e85 is a fad? The ---- is great, it isn't some silly thing. It does it job, ask your boy Clark.


You'll need much larger injectors. I believe the FFVs ran something near +20s stock. I've done calculations and come up with 95lb. injectors for near 400HP if memory serves me right.

There is another thread which is very recent where a guy was suggesting 160lb injectors based on his experience running E85 in a boosted vehicle.

160 seem a bit much unless maybe you have a really high horse power car and you don't have your FPR vacuum line hooked up.

If you take 72lbs@43.5psi and bump them up to 80psi they become 97.6lbs injectors. That is a ton of fuel.


I think you'll need more than +20s just to accommodate the added fuel need when running the E85. The FFV cars had +20s to meet the fuel demands of the NA cars...

I do agree that a FFV rail would probably be the best cheap way to go.

Meth needs 50% more fuel then gasoline, where e85 is 30%.

[RoadWarrior222]

This is why you use the back of an envelope, a clean sheet of paper is a n00b, an envelope has been around a bit.

[BadAssPerformance]

You think e85 is a fad? The ---- is great, it isn't some silly thing. It does it job, ask your boy Clark.

Never said it couldn't be used or make power.

The fad comment is cuz many think its a magical replacement and better than for race gas. Group of people all liking the same idea = fad, good or bad.

I'm presonally not a fan... the 85% is inconsistant and uncontrolled unless you buy it from the same vendor or in a can. Also, if you do the work to make a fuel system safe to run alcohol, why not just run meth?

But this thread is not about my opinion, so back on topic...

How long does it take a Walbro to fail from E85?

[DodgeZ]

Never said it couldn't be used or make power.

The fad comment is cuz many think its a magical replacement and better than for race gas. Group of people all liking the same idea = fad, good or bad.

I'm presonally not a fan... the 85% is inconsistant and uncontrolled unless you buy it from the same vendor or in a can. Also, if you do the work to make a fuel system safe to run alcohol, why not just run meth?

But this thread is not about my opinion, so back on topic...

How long does it take a Walbro to fail from E85?

You think e85 is going to go away after awhile? I define a fad as something that is silly and goes away after awhile. You says that same thing about any pump gas (yeah yeah race gas comes from a pump) but what I find funny you don't worry about inconsistent and uncontrolled track conditions. If you a running on the ragged edge of your tune then track conditions are going to require the same changes. I am not sure how much better it is the race gas but people are seeing really good numbers when putting e85 next to race gas and it is a hell of a lot cheaper. IndyCar is now running on e85 if that says anything. Next it 93 octane it is a lot better. How long does it take a Walbro to fail from gasoline? The one is my SRT is getting loud as hell and it doesn't have much use with gasoline only.

[cordes]

What does your paper say about +20%ers running 27psi thru a stock Garrett, stock IC, etc on 100 unleaded? ;)

If the car is close to bone stock I bet it would be fine. I was surprised at how much boost Clay was running in his omni with +20s at Palooza one year, but when he stated how little had been done to the car mod wise it made sense.





160 seem a bit much unless maybe you have a really high horse power car and you don't have your FPR vacuum line hooked up.

If you take 72lbs@43.5psi and bump them up to 80psi they become 97.6lbs injectors. That is a ton of fuel.



Meth needs 50% more fuel then gasoline, where e85 is 30%.

I agree that 160lbs injectors seems way high. Another member of the site went to them after 95s wouldn't cut it though. Granted it was for a different application, but I felt a comparison could be made.

For stoichiometric E85 will need 30% more fuel. I've read that alky likes to be run richer than gas by comparison and that one shouldn't shoot for that 30% number when doing calculations for a performance application.




How long does it take a Walbro to fail from E85?

I've read that they will fail if you leave them sitting in the alky for too long with out running them. It does seem like guys get a very long life out of them with regular use though.


You think e85 is going to go away after awhile? I define a fad as something that is silly and goes away after awhile. =

If the subsidies dry up, E85 will be a thing of the past over night. There isn't any money in the stuff without the government propping it up. If I'm not mistaken racing bodies which are going to it are doing so due to sponsorship from corn/ethanol producers...

[OmniLuvr]

well, here in sunny so cal, there talking about making leaded race gas illegal, everywhere! so they cant sell it, and we wont be able to run it at the track anymore.

plus e85 wont destroy your o2 sensors after running it for a full tank.

there is also talk that the extra volume of fuel being expelled from the exhaust will help to spool turbo's quicker.

my friend has been running e85 in his n/a Z06 for three years with no problems to his fuel pump, and he made 42 more hp on his e85 tune as compaired to his race gas/pump gas blend. but we dont have 93 oct out here, just 91...

and i also dont think they "have" to make it out of corn, just anything they can make sugars with to create the alky (but the corn is very plentifull), they are trying to make it out of scrap wood pulp that is left over after making paper using special selected bacteria.

so why dont you like e85 then JT?

[BadAssPerformance]

You think e85 is going to go away after awhile? I define a fad as something that is silly and goes away after awhile. You says that same thing about any pump gas (yeah yeah race gas comes from a pump) but what I find funny you don't worry about inconsistent and uncontrolled track conditions.

Fads are not always silly, but yeah they go away. If E85 was so great why aren't there more places that sell it?

Huh? Uncontrolled fuel is a tad more dangerous that a crappy track.


If the subsidies dry up, E85 will be a thing of the past over night. There isn't any money in the stuff without the government propping it up. If I'm not mistaken racing bodies which are going to it are doing so due to sponsorship from corn/ethanol producers...

True story.


so why dont you like e85 then JT?

Inconsistancy of product - Unless you buy it in a can it is highly doubtful it is close to 85%

It may cost less but you have to run more of it to make it work

It is corrosive to all fuel components

I have multiple gas stations with race gas closer to my house than any I know of that sell E85


Now don't get me wrong, I like ethanol, but I prefer it with a slice of lime or a few Olives swimming in it ;) Oh look at the time, its half past beer thirty.. later gents

[shackwrrr]

Its a common misconception that E85 is corrosive, It's not. E85 is hydrophilic meaning that it adsorbs water, the water is what rusts everything out. So if you are using it as a race fuel and wont be leaving it in the tank for extended periods then there are no issues with the steel in the system. Now it is bad for rubber in the system that may be old, but if you have new rubber lines then there should be no problem since most fuel line is alky resistant.

[cordes]

Its a common misconception that E85 is corrosive, It's not. E85 is hydrophilic meaning that it adsorbs water, the water is what rusts everything out. So if you are using it as a race fuel and wont be leaving it in the tank for extended periods then there are no issues with the steel in the system. Now it is bad for rubber in the system that may be old, but if you have new rubber lines then there should be no problem since most fuel line is alky resistant.

If I'm not mistaken Methanol and Ethanol somehow become more reactive with metals at higher temps. I'm not sure what temps those are, but it is a factor.

I wish I had the chart I found back when which showed how corrosive (or whatever the correct term would be here) Ethanol, Methanol etc. were. Ethanol really isn't too bad, especially when compared to Methanol.

[RoadWarrior222]

Yeah it was 199something when all fuel line had to be alcohol resistant. Original rubber line might not be, but if it's been replaced this century, then you should be fine with that.

The water issue is mitigated if you don't leave it sitting for weeks at a time and drive it regularly. Particularly, run off any gas quick that has been sitting in the car in hot humid weather, if the weather suddenly turns cold. Because what happens is, when it's warm it will suck up water out of the air, but when it gets colder, it won't be able to dissolve it any more and it will drop out. If you're overly concerned about it, you can stick regular doses of 99% isopropyl alcohol in it, either isoheet, or just buy it by the gallon at the farm supply or in 4 packs at the medical section of costco. Half to one cup should be fine. It has a much greater capacity for holding water in solution that ethanol does. It's the free water that messes things up, and can also make weak ethanoic acid.

DO NOT use methanol as a gas drier in E85, and it probably ain't much good in E10 either. The darned stuff works the opposite way and the water holding properties of both it and ethanol decrease, leading to a likely increase in free water. I was experimenting with adding methanol to E10 to catalyse hydrogen production in the intake port, and discovered this was happening, so I had to add isopropyl with the methanol which fixes things up again. Long story short, it doesn't work reliably due to needing intake port temp above 85C, and chelating metal deactivators present in the gas which prevent much surface area being available for reaction.

[Vigo]

And so, we come back to bigger injectors and a cal.. the circle of life..lol

[86seeS]

Im wanting to run this on a log car with S60 set up im going to run one of those 4 play chips from boostbutton.com so I was wanting an e85 tune

[shackwrrr]

Yes, injectors and cal are all you need. But just beware of the inconsistencies of e85, it can be anywhere from e70-e85

[BadAssPerformance]

Its a common misconception that E85 is corrosive, It's not. E85 is hydrophilic meaning that it adsorbs water, the water is what rusts everything out. So if you are using it as a race fuel and wont be leaving it in the tank for extended periods then there are no issues with the steel in the system. Now it is bad for rubber in the system that may be old, but if you have new rubber lines then there should be no problem since most fuel line is alky resistant.

OK so if its not corrosive but it generate a corrossive condition, so guess what.. its pretty much corrosive, no?

Most that run E85 do all the time, not a race only setup and not flushed out of the system... and usually have crusty fuel components. At least the ones I have seen on street cars.

The crusty components may be more climate based too (as with most corrosion) and not as common in warmer areas where the warm to cold temp change makes condensation, etc?

---------- Post added at 08:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:26 AM ----------


Yes, injectors and cal are all you need. But just beware of the inconsistencies of e85, it can be anywhere from e70-e85

I did not know it had a lower limit that high, but I guess that range is broad enuff.

[shackwrrr]

OK so if its not corrosive but it generate a corrossive condition, so guess what.. its pretty much corrosive, no?

Most that run E85 do all the time, not a race only setup and not flushed out of the system... and usually have crusty fuel components. At least the ones I have seen on street cars.

The crusty components may be more climate based too (as with most corrosion) and not as common in warmer areas where the warm to cold temp change makes condensation, etc?

---------- Post added at 08:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:26 AM ----------



I did not know it had a lower limit that high, but I guess that range is broad enuff.

Well the chemical properties of the fuel are not corrosive so its not corrosive. Its a second substance that makes it corrosive. There are plenty of things that are not considered corrosive but can be if they contain water, brake fluid, Refrigerant, ect.

As long as you know this and dont let it get like that then you will be fine. Im sure that if you are going to get a fourplay that you will have a gasoline tune so that will flush everything out and prevent corrosion.

and of course that is directly from the pump, if there is gas in your tank it will be lower.

[Mopar318]

If you have a chemically corrosive liquid, you can increase velocity in order to reduce the corrosion. (Ex). use a smaller fuel line with more pressure.

Alcohol, which is highly present in E85 WILL corrode most grade of aluminum. So, a stainless steel fuel rail is necessary. The problem is that a lot of stuff in the fuel system is Aluminized. The coating gets eaten away off the steel parts, and cavitation and rust takes care of the rest.

As long as you have a stainless fuel rail, and new rubber hoses and fuel tank, you should be fine.

Another thing to worry about is the exhaust system. I have been talking with a fuels engineer at school about his veggie oil converted Mercedes. He said his exhaust system was getting attacked pretty good. I'm not sure if E85 is going to attack the exhaust system in the same way, but it something to look at.

[cordes]

Well the chemical properties of the fuel are not corrosive so its not corrosive. Its a second substance that makes it corrosive. There are plenty of things that are not considered corrosive but can be if they contain water, brake fluid, Refrigerant, ect.

As long as you know this and dont let it get like that then you will be fine. Im sure that if you are going to get a fourplay that you will have a gasoline tune so that will flush everything out and prevent corrosion.

and of course that is directly from the pump, if there is gas in your tank it will be lower.

You can't find much higher than 190 poof alcohol because it will take on water out of the air from what I've read. In the real world Ethanol will absorb water and become slightly corrosive. There are people on this forum who have lost fuel pumps due to corrosion from E85. It's not that bad from all I've read, but it is a reality.

I've also read that alcohol can react with metals when heated up. The specific example was eating the oxidizing which protects Al off of off of it. That too concerns me.

While I agree that 100% pure ethanol is neutral and therefore not corrosive, it won't be in that state inside of a gas tank. We need someone in the know to bring us up to speed in other areas too.

If someone has that info I would love to read it and become better informed.

[Mopar318]

I have used this website for some information in a report. Its was scholar reviewed as well.

http://www.seco.cpa.state.tx.us/re_ethanol.htm

[shackwrrr]

If you have a chemically corrosive liquid, you can increase velocity in order to reduce the corrosion. (Ex). use a smaller fuel line with more pressure.

Alcohol, which is highly present in E85 WILL corrode most grade of aluminum. So, a stainless steel fuel rail is necessary. The problem is that a lot of stuff in the fuel system is Aluminized. The coating gets eaten away off the steel parts, and cavitation and rust takes care of the rest.

As long as you have a stainless fuel rail, and new rubber hoses and fuel tank, you should be fine.

Another thing to worry about is the exhaust system. I have been talking with a fuels engineer at school about his veggie oil converted Mercedes. He said his exhaust system was getting attacked pretty good. I'm not sure if E85 is going to attack the exhaust system in the same way, but it something to look at.

The engineer explains it better, Never thought about aluminum since there arent any aluminum rails for the log motor and I didnt know about the aluminized coating.

[shackwrrr]

I have used this website for some information in a report. Its was scholar reviewed as well.

http://www.seco.cpa.state.tx.us/re_ethanol.htm

same site I used for my paper in Alternative fuels.

[cordes]

same site I used for my paper in Alternative fuels.

Would you mind posting up all your references? I didn't save anything when I did my research, which I'm now regretting.

[puppet]

I'm still wondering about long term cylinder wear. I've seen some studies alluding to using specific oil(s) to help combat wash down, as well as certain ring coating that live longer in an alcohol enviroment ... has this been considered in your change over?

[RoadWarrior222]

If you have a chemically corrosive liquid, you can increase velocity in order to reduce the corrosion. (Ex). use a smaller fuel line with more pressure
You can get away with that in plant engineering if you're gonna run it 24/7.... gonna run your fuel pump 24/7?


Another thing to worry about is the exhaust system. I have been talking with a fuels engineer at school about his veggie oil converted Mercedes. He said his exhaust system was getting attacked pretty good. I'm not sure if E85 is going to attack the exhaust system in the same way, but it something to look at. Hum veggie oil is nowhere near similar to ethanol. Why compare, because it's "Green"?... maybe I can interest you in a lettuce alternative on your burger, nightshade leaves, hell they're both leaves right?

Now, that's a whole nother argument, about the difference between used vegetable oil, new vegetable oil, with free fatty acids and iodine, and fully converted biodiesel... The "I hear biodiesel is bad because my buddy tried it and got burned frenchfries stuck in his injector pump" argument is so lame and ignorant it's barely worth addressing....

[DodgeZ]

I'm still wondering about long term cylinder wear. I've seen some studies alluding to using specific oil(s) to help combat wash down, as well as certain ring coating that live longer in an alcohol enviroment ... has this been considered in your change over?

http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Page?template=Myths

watch the video

[moparman76_69]

:39 seconds in is a black '78-'79 dodge magnum

[shackwrrr]

Would you mind posting up all your references? I didn't save anything when I did my research, which I'm now regretting.

The whole thing was only 2 pages and it covered most of the popular alternatives, this is the only other site I used.

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/ethanol/e85.html
The navigation is a little tricky but there is more info there if you look around
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/ethanol/index.html

[puppet]

Interesting Kevin ... I do wish some measurements had been applied to the mostly visual analysis though ... as in ring gap(s) etc. A controlled study might also include some oil testing as well to determine wear vs another conventionally fueled mill.

One other side note related to some of the info on your link Kevin is specific to point #13. Most farmers rent crop land. As is the american way ... most land owners doing the leasing to farmers want more per acre as a result of the new "boon". Market fluctuations don't factor in well (dollar wise) for the grower in that scenario. While market values move quickly, lease agreements do not.

[ShadowFromHell]

Im reading alot here about how the water is what make it corrosive. So, being a ex diesel mechanic I wonder if a fuel/water separator could be use at the back by the tank. It wouldn't help with corrosion in the tank, or the pump but IF it worked, it SHOULD save everything on the other side of it. I do not know if something designed to separate water from diesel would separate water from a gas/alky mix... But maybe something to look into?

[cordes]

http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Page?template=Myths

watch the video

I really can't take anything seriously on a site with the following pic.

http://www.change2e85.com/images/store_version1/BuyGasFrom.jpg

It plays on people's ignorance and is not remotely accurate.


The whole thing was only 2 pages and it covered most of the popular alternatives, this is the only other site I used.

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/ethanol/e85.html
The navigation is a little tricky but there is more info there if you look around
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/ethanol/index.html

Thanks!


Interesting Kevin ... I do wish some measurements had been applied to the mostly visual analysis though ... as in ring gap(s) etc. A controlled study might also include some oil testing as well to determine wear vs another conventionally fueled mill.

One other side note related to some of the info on your link Kevin is specific to point #13. Most farmers rent crop land. As is the american way ... most land owners doing the leasing to farmers want more per acre as a result of the new "boon". Market fluctuations don't factor in well (dollar wise) for the grower in that scenario. While market values move quickly, lease agreements do not.

Farmers are making great money off of the E85 subsidies. Not only do they make growing corn more profitable, but the increased field space taken up by corn has driven up other crop prices as well.

[BadAssPerformance]

I really can't take anything seriously on a site with the following pic.

http://www.change2e85.com/images/store_version1/BuyGasFrom.jpg

It plays on people's ignorance and is not remotely accurate.

Thanks!

Farmers are making great money off of the E85 subsidies. Not only do they make growing corn more profitable, but the increased field space taken up by corn has driven up other crop prices as well.

LOL @ that pic...

[DodgeZ]

I really can't take anything seriously on a site with the following pic.

http://www.change2e85.com/images/store_version1/BuyGasFrom.jpg

It plays on people's ignorance and is not remotely accurate.
why isn't accurate?

[ShadowFromHell]

If I had to guess, it would be the "issue" from what what I have read about how it takes more then a gallon of what is probably foreign gas/diesel to make a gallon of ethanol. That may be a internet myth though, it wouldnt surprise me either way, lol.

[cordes]

why isn't accurate?

While I suppose it is a fair question, I don't like the fact that they are playing on people's emotion and banking on ignorance.

I'm not going to look it up again, but I believe the percentage of oil we purchase which actually comes from the middle east is in the single digits.

[Force Fed Mopar]

While I suppose it is a fair question, I don't like the fact that they are playing on people's emotion and banking on ignorance.

I'm not going to look it up again, but I believe the percentage of oil we purchase which actually comes from the middle east is in the single digits.

So are you saying you'd rather buy more from the Arabs?

---------- Post added at 08:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 PM ----------

As far as the variance in E85 from different suppliers goes, I don't see where it's a very big deal. Find one vendor of it that you like and just use them. It's not a large enough difference to screw the tune on a daily driver basis, and if you are only using it for racing, you should only be buying the same stuff from the same vendor anyway. It's not much different than tuning your car on C16 then finding out at a new track that they only have 110 oct. You should be looking ahead for that sort of thing.

[cordes]

So are you saying you'd rather buy more from the Arabs?

---------- Post added at 08:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 PM ----------

As far as the variance in E85 from different suppliers goes, I don't see where it's a very big deal. Find one vendor of it that you like and just use them. It's not a large enough difference to screw the tune on a daily driver basis, and if you are only using it for racing, you should only be buying the same stuff from the same vendor anyway. It's not much different than tuning your car on C16 then finding out at a new track that they only have 110 oct. You should be looking ahead for that sort of thing.

No, but not because they're Arab. I would like to buy less from everyone. I'm sure the pic is great for playing on racist/anti-Muslim sentiment though. Not the road I travel, but I can't hold everyone to what I think.

[Force Fed Mopar]

No, but not because they're Arab. I would like to buy less from everyone. I'm sure the pic is great for playing on racist/anti-Muslim sentiment though. Not the road I travel, but I can't hold everyone to what I think.

I would like to buy less from everyone too. Particularly, I would like to buy less from those who dislike us and rip us off on every barrel they can :)

[cordes]

I would like to buy less from everyone too. Particularly, I would like to buy less from those who dislike us and rip us off on every barrel they can :)

While I don't know about the ripping off part, nearly everyone we get it from hates us so either way...

[Force Fed Mopar]

While I don't know about the ripping off part, nearly everyone we get it from hates us so either way...

So, what? Should we just keep silent and bear it? Meh, I'll take this to the lounge, sorry for the hijack :)

Oh and yeah, bigger injectors and a tune :D I am running +40's at stock fuel pressure w/ a Walbro 255 pump, stock engine w/ a ported exhaust mani, stock turbo, stock 2-piece, FM475 cam, 52mm TB and an SRT intercooler. Had no problem at all running 15-17 psi of boost on E85. Pulls hard too, for stock engine w/ minor bolt-ons.

[crusty shadow]

guess i should post my experiences here
rubber fuel lines- any line made after about 2000 will be compatible with E85. the newer rubber lines were made to be compatible with e10, and theres not much difference between 10% alky and 70-85% alky as far as the rubber lines are concerned. replace all rubber fuel lines and injector o-rings with new stuff.
i ran e85 in my T1 lebaron, +20's and a wideband so i could could keep an eye on the A/F ratio. with a stock T1 cal my af never went higher than 13.6 and that was on the highway during light throttle cruise. rest of the time it would hover around 11.5-12.0 at WOT. again, just running +20 injector's, stock T1 cal, MBC and nothing else. never ever came close to running lean all the way up to 10 psi.
e85 typically uses about 20%-25% more fuel than straight gasoline. you do not need huge injectors like some of you think. not even close. most of you could run the same injectors you have now, worst case you'd have to bump the fuel pressure up a couple pounds. stainless lines, regulators etc are NOT needed.

ethanoll will not corrode your fuel system. still have the fuel rail and injectors from that car, they are clean as a whistle after sitting for over a year and having 2 years of run time on e85. ethanol is however a very good cleaner. all the varnish gum and rust built up in your tank and lines will break free and travel down the system clogging either the fuel filter or injectors. in my car i had replaced the gas tank and fuel lines before hand due to the car sitting for years before i bought it. i never had issues with crud building up in the fuel lines, filter or elsewhere. basically if your tank, lines and rail are in good shape you wont have any problems. i also ran the stock regulator as well- it never leaked.

there are 2 gas stations within 5 miles of my house that sell e85. there is a gas station 4 miles from my house that sells 100 octane sunnoco unleaded.
e85- about $0.25 per gallon cheaper than 87.
100 octane race gas at the pump- $6.50 per gallon.
^ that right there is the main reason i run the stuff. its kinda hard to beat a fuel with the same octane rating thats less than half the price. i dont care if its subsidized, as long as its cheap i'll run it.
there will always be inconsistencies with blends. unless you're mixing stuff at home it will never be exact. i will be getting a barrel of e100, and a few gallons of 110 and mixing my own "super" e85. if you're primarily racing, you should plan on making your own blend for consistency. if you're gonna run pump e85 tune a little more on the safe side and you'll be fine.

i didnt write any papers, do extensive lab testing, nor did i hear stuff from a buddy- just going off my own personal experience.

[wallace]

You'll need much larger injectors. I believe the FFVs ran something near +20s stock. I've done calculations and come up with 95lb. injectors for near 400HP if memory serves me right.

There is another thread which is very recent where a guy was suggesting 160lb injectors based on his experience running E85 in a boosted vehicle.

That was me. I started with 120's and ran out of injector (90% dc) at 18 lbs of boost. The 120's on e85 are comparable to 83's on gasoline. The 160's on e85 are comparable to 96's on gasoline. That's right at 40% reduction due to increased volume requirement. The engine is a v6 but bore and stroke are similar to the 2.5L. Real world experience is I see no corrosion on aluminum in my setup. It works very well for boost it's cheaper than pump gasoline and is VERY easy on the tune...there is a much larger margin for error with this stuff. I'm building a Horizon and going with e85 and MS2 (same thing I run in the other car). The mix out of the pump changed each time I filled my drums up but a couple datalogs and some tweaking and you're ready to go. I think it's a great alternative to $10/gal race fuel. I posted a link to my efforts with the v6 in the other thread all of the injector issues covered there. Good luck!

[Mopar318]

Good to hear people having good experiences with E85. I ran it in my Taurus a few times when gas was $4/gallon, and E85 was a little over $2. I did notice a decrease in fuel mileage, which went from about 24 city/highway driving to about 18. As long as the E85 is about 3/4's the price of regular gasoline, it is a good alternative for a regular driver.

[Force Fed Mopar]

I don't remember hearing anything about the FFV cars having a different fuel tank, so I don't see any issues there either.

[cordes]

I don't remember hearing anything about the FFV cars having a different fuel tank, so I don't see any issues there either.

They had plastic tanks.

[DodgeZ]

They had plastic tanks.

can I haz plastic tank?

[Force Fed Mopar]

Well, I learned something new :) So are new FFV tanks available still? Aftermarket?

[cordes]

can I haz plastic tank?


Well, I learned something new :) So are new FFV tanks available still? Aftermarket?

It's been a long while, and I've only seen one of them in the yard. I've never checked in to getting one from a parts place.

[shackwrrr]

you gotta remember the spirit FFV was Methanol not ethanol. Not sure how the FFV would run on e85 rather than m85.

[RoadWarrior222]

Probably okay, since I think they accepted any mix in between regular and M85, so it would probably think it was running M50 or so if you put E85 in it.

[shackwrrr]

Probably okay, since I think they accepted any mix in between regular and M85, so it would probably think it was running M50 or so if you put E85 in it.

I am guessing the sensors just look at the specific gravity?

[DodgeZ]

That was me. I started with 120's and ran out of injector (90% dc) at 18 lbs of boost. The 120's on e85 are comparable to 83's on gasoline. The 160's on e85 are comparable to 96's on gasoline. That's right at 40% reduction due to increased volume requirement. The engine is a v6 but bore and stroke are similar to the 2.5L. Real world experience is I see no corrosion on aluminum in my setup. It works very well for boost it's cheaper than pump gasoline and is VERY easy on the tune...there is a much larger margin for error with this stuff. I'm building a Horizon and going with e85 and MS2 (same thing I run in the other car). The mix out of the pump changed each time I filled my drums up but a couple datalogs and some tweaking and you're ready to go. I think it's a great alternative to $10/gal race fuel. I posted a link to my efforts with the v6 in the other thread all of the injector issues covered there. Good luck!

do you run static pressure or 1:1 raising?

[CNH320]

They had plastic tanks.

Anyone know if the Spirit tank would fit into a P-body?

[cordes]

Anyone know if the Spirit tank would fit into a P-body?

I attempted to assess that myself when I was looking at the example I saw. I couldn't tell you from looking at it.

[RoadWarrior222]

GM L bodies had plastic tanks also, (Beretta, Corsica, Tempest) so they might be an option to look at if the spirit tank won't fit something.

[wallace]

It's a 1:1 rises with the boost.


do you run static pressure or 1:1 raising?

[DodgeZ]

It's a 1:1 rises with the boost.

what is your fuel pressure at max boost? can you roll a baseball thru your ports?

---------- Post added at 08:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 AM ----------

I should note that with the e85 I get a lot of steam out of the tail pipe on cold wet days. Prolly not so good for shitty exhaust systems.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Anyone know if the Spirit tank would fit into a P-body?

Yes it will, IIRC.

---------- Post added at 10:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 AM ----------


I should note that with the e85 I get a lot of steam out of the tail pipe on cold wet days. Prolly not so good for shitty exhaust systems.

Yeah I noticed this also.

[wallace]

what is your fuel pressure at max boost? can you roll a baseball thru your ports?

---------- Post added at 08:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 AM ----------

I should note that with the e85 I get a lot of steam out of the tail pipe on cold wet days. Prolly not so good for shitty exhaust systems.

Base pressure is 43 so at 21 lbs boost it's 64. I logged fuel pressure early on to verify I was getting a 1:1. Not sure what you mean about the ports? The intake ports were gasket matched to the head, head has been ported and larger than stock valves but nothing crazy, the intake valve is less than 2". IIRC the intake flowed around 235 at .500.

[RoadWarrior222]

I should note that with the e85 I get a lot of steam out of the tail pipe on cold wet days. Prolly not so good for shitty exhaust systems.

Might just condense quicker due to being a tad cooler. The answer to that one, is not to use any hydrocarbon.... the hydrogen part always burns to form water.... which leaves what as a fuel, carbon monoxide?

But you bring up the point of the "I ran shitty normal stuff in my car for years and wore and rotted and gummed everything up with it and generally failed to maintain it, out of guilt I tried X thinking I was doing something good, and it finally died/broke/rotted out".... meaning if your exhaust is nearly rotted out, it isn't gonna be E85s fault when it blows next month, like it isn't synthetics fault when you get your motor royally sludged with supermarket oil and break it loose all at once with a fill of synth, or that it's MMOs fault when you stick a high dose in your tank and it breaks all the gum loose and clogs your injectors, or that it's a high output coils fault that your crappy 10 year old plug wires burn out, etc, etc, etc.

[CNH320]

Anyone know if the Spirit tank would fit into a P-body?

Yes it will, IIRC.



[Mr. Burns Voice] Excellent.... [/Mr.Burns Voice]

[88C/S]

How about the O2 sensor, any problems or what which mfr are you using-NTK, Bosch...

[wallace]

I ran the innovate LM1 with the output feeding the MS2 I didn't have any issues with the sensor it's a bosch that came with the LM1. I would think a narrowband would work ok too.

[RoadWarrior222]

IF you just stuck E85 in a "normal" car it might give an O2 code, because it would peg lean with as much fuel as the ECU allowed extra. Won't be an actual O2 sensor failure though. So if you've heard a rumor of "I put in E85 and killed my O2" it might be due to ignorance of it needing more fuel than straight gas. However, most ECUs are smart enough to throw a "Fuel system at rich adaptive limit" code instead of "OMG it's lean, must be the O2 busted" code... but you never know.