PDA

View Full Version : umm lots of goodies but still slow



Stinkbox
06-29-2006, 02:03 AM
umm i can't figure it out. here goes the basic upgrades.
90 daytona shelby.
rebuilt 2.5 common block turbo motor with brand new head.
turbonetics t3/t04b super v trim with a stage 3 turbine and .63 a/r non chrysler housing.
2.5" o2 housing to 3" out the back with no cat or muffler.
medium sized front mount intercooler.
dsm 390cc/min injectors at stock fuel pressure.
20 psi with manual boost controller.
255 walbro fuel pump rewired with 10 guage and relay.
ported exhaust mani with an external wastegate welded right under #2 runner.
523 with 3.50 f/d
225/50/16's
no spare tire / ac and condensor
3" intake with heat shield to where battery was.
msd coil and magnacore wires with ngk br7es's
mopar performance sbec
rps 2700lb clutch with 4 puck disc
cut hole in hood at back of power bulge for vent
manual fan switch
boost, a/f and egt guage

car runs strong, runs rich with dsm injectors down low but egts are at 1500 when under full boost.
no boost leaks but car doesn't get full boost till 5k in 1st gear but the rest of the gears its in the 3700 rpm range.
timing at 12 degrees

only can manage a 15.0 @ 98 mph
terrible 60's (2.4's) since i don't get boost till late in first and it just bogs off the line
so im probably making around 250-275 horsepower which is lame since the super 60 makes 300 with a lot less stuff.
my buddy had this turbo and wastegate on hid dsm a long time ago and ran 12.9's at 20 psi with a frount mount and 3" exhaust and injectors.

where is all my power.

I know the stock head has to be holding me back but damn that much.
would an n/a cam help. i don't know if i want a bigger cam do to my power band being so high already.

anybody have any ideas what i need to upgrade.

GLHSKEN
06-29-2006, 07:01 AM
The turbo is a BAD match for the flow characturustics of the head if it is a "B"

WHat trim??

Frank
06-29-2006, 07:50 AM
What he said on the turbo....

Also, what is your intercooler really like? In addition, how do you have your cam timing setup, and what is your base timing at?


Frank

Clay
06-29-2006, 08:19 AM
How are you leaving the line? I found a bunch of time based on how I was leaving the line, rpm, etc. street tires make it even worse!

clay

DodgeZ
06-29-2006, 09:42 AM
how are you tuning the car? Also your buddy's DSM what did it run mph wise? 105ish?

Dave
06-29-2006, 01:28 PM
The head is holding you back... A BUNCH! You're not making over 250whp on the stock head. I'm running the same setup as you, - the turbo and i/c... stock T2 stuff. It pulls real hard but has no top end power. I feel for you. You need to port that head.

While were on it. What's wrong with a B series compressor housing? Is it too small?

BadAssPerformance
06-29-2006, 01:35 PM
The turbo is a BAD match for the flow characturustics of the head if it is a "B"

WHat trim??

Meaning a stock head?

What cam? cam timing?

Can get a second off the 1/4 with a 2.0 or better 60' on gym shoes too :thumb:

The S is Silent
06-29-2006, 01:37 PM
B series is a flow wheel. It just pushes a lot of air. Which is cool...if we could flow that much.

E series is more of a high pressure wheel, to force the air through our 8 valves. It works much better for us, and it has been shown over and over that this is the case.

BadAssPerformance
06-29-2006, 01:39 PM
T-04B and T-04E are housing sizes, not wheels. You can get almost any T-04 wheel in either

EDIT: and the E is larger and less restrictive than the B so lower pressure and temp on the E

The S is Silent
06-29-2006, 01:48 PM
The E housing has shown to be a better match for our heads. I was a little confused...but not on that fact.

BadAssPerformance
06-29-2006, 01:51 PM
B's are ok for me, no issues. I've been thinking of going from my B up to an E to try it and run a little cooler intake temps.

With a stock head? I would say that a T-03 housing would possibly be better than either T-04 housing.

DodgeZ
06-29-2006, 02:02 PM
T-04B and T-04E are housing sizes, not wheels. You can get almost any T-04 wheel in either

EDIT: and the E is larger and less restrictive than the B so lower pressure and temp on the E


That's what I heard from my turbo guy.

DodgeZ
06-29-2006, 02:03 PM
The E housing has shown to be a better match for our heads. I was a little confused...but not on that fact.


Hey it sounded good. I was buying it even tho I knew it was the housings :thumb:

ps you coming to the track tonight?

BadAssPerformance
06-29-2006, 02:04 PM
That's what I heard from my turbo guy.

Yeah, I got that from the folks in Simi Valley, CA :thumb:

The S is Silent
06-29-2006, 02:17 PM
Hey it sounded good. I was buying it even tho I knew it was the housings :thumb:

ps you coming to the track tonight?

Yeah, I'll probably come. Berry and I are going to head up to the garage to weld up my battery box, and then I'll probably ride with him in the omni up to the track to hang out. I've got to move in 3 weeks...so I can't afford to break something at the track at this point.

Frank
06-29-2006, 02:28 PM
The head is holding you back... A BUNCH! You're not making over 250whp on the stock head. I'm running the same setup as you, - the turbo and i/c... stock T2 stuff. It pulls real hard but has no top end power. I feel for you. You need to port that head.

While were on it. What's wrong with a B series compressor housing? Is it too small?

The head isnt holding him back. Maybe if he was trying to break into the 12s, however that isnt the case. BadAndy ran a 13.0@105 in my 3200lb daytona with a stock block.


Frank

GLHSKEN
06-29-2006, 02:44 PM
The head isnt holding him back. Maybe if he was trying to break into the 12s, however that isnt the case. BadAndy ran a 13.0@105 in my 3200lb daytona with a stock block.


Frank

I've seen a stock headed 2.5L make 330 whp with a similar set-up... So no, 250 is t=not the limitation on the head. The car in question was running a t3/4 50 trim stage 2.

DodgeZ
06-29-2006, 02:52 PM
http://turbo-mopar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=57352&postcount=5

cordes
06-29-2006, 06:09 PM
That is a whole lot of boost for 37lb. injectors with that size turbo. It is probably pulling timing like a mofo.

GLHSKEN
06-29-2006, 06:12 PM
Is that all the bigger those injectors all... Nice catch... 20 PSI and I maxxed out 42 lb/hour units.

Stinkbox
06-29-2006, 06:19 PM
i have primative tuning. egts and a/f guage and spark plugs. i know id be better off with a 3 bar cal and matched injectors but im a poor turbo dodge dude. my intercooler isn't as big as id like but its bigger than a stock one and its always cold to the touch on the outlet side. when im on the street if i try to launch it i just lay tire but at the track it grips and just bogs and i don't feel like breaking another diff, 3 already haha, last yr i had a n/a 2.5 block with 8.9:1 with my stock mitsu at 20 psi with the same front mount, 2.5" downpipe, 20 psi, fuel pump, some other carp and ran a 14.4 @ 99, I know that the higher compression did wonders for it but obviously it didn't last as it blew rings and ring lands. I was pissed when my mph was 1 mph slower this year with this setup compard to the stock mitsu, i don't care about my et. more conserned with mph. i thought id be at least like 103-105 mph but all three runs gave me 97-98 mph and 15's aahhhhhhh. i know the mph is good for high 13 low 14 if i could drive haha.

i just don't get why im not over 300 hp with this setup.

Stinkbox
06-29-2006, 06:23 PM
well my egt's are at 1500 under full boost and my autometer a/f guage has only the last 2 lines lit up so its still getting fuel. i know it needs more but its working fine for now.

cordes
06-29-2006, 06:25 PM
Is that all the bigger those injectors all... Nice catch... 20 PSI and I maxxed out 42 lb/hour units.

Yeah, 390cc/min seemed low so I double checked, and was suprised this is not a why is there a hole in my piston thread.

Stinkbox
06-29-2006, 06:28 PM
i was actually running the stock 2.5 turbo replacement injectors for like 6 months with this turbo at 20 psi and it never blew up lol i have no clue why it didn't guess i got lucky, my egts were like 1750 hahah. im stupid

Stinkbox
06-29-2006, 06:30 PM
remember that the dsm injectors are 37 lb/hr @ 45 or so fuel pressure so they are flowing more since its at the stock 55 psi

cordes
06-29-2006, 06:34 PM
remember that the dsm injectors are 37 lb/hr @ 45 or so fuel pressure so they are flowing more since its at the stock 55 psi

A-ha! great point. I did not think of that. Give me a couple minutes and I will try to get a flow rate at 55PSI.

ETA: The increase in FP from 43.5 to 55PSI will bring them up to just shy of 42lb/hr. This puts them at about a +20 flow rate.

Stinkbox
06-29-2006, 06:38 PM
so how did you figure that out

Stinkbox
06-29-2006, 06:41 PM
what would the 450cc or 42 lb be at with the 55 psi instead of 43.5

cordes
06-29-2006, 06:43 PM
That would work out to about 496cc/min or 47.2lb/hr.

I just found an injector flow rate calculator on google. :thumb:

Stinkbox
06-29-2006, 07:10 PM
wow i just looked in the shop manual and stock fuel pressure goes as follows for dsm's

1g 2.0 turbo
manual=36.3 psi
auto=42.7 psi

so i did some recalculating and they work out to be this

450cc/min @ 36.3 psi= 553.5cc/min @ 55 psi or 52 lb/hr
so 450cc's end up being plus 40's

390cc/min @ 42.7 psi= 442.26cc/min @ 55 psi or 42lb/hr
so 390cc's end up being plus 20's

crazy.

GLHSKEN
06-29-2006, 07:15 PM
A-ha! great point. I did not think of that. Give me a couple minutes and I will try to get a flow rate at 55PSI.

ETA: The increase in FP from 43.5 to 55PSI will bring them up to just shy of 42lb/hr. This puts them at about a +20 flow rate.

And they were maxxed at roughly 270 whp on my car. Estimated from 20 falling to 18 psi boost (ic restriction) 109.7 mph trap speed with a 2580 weight car...

Pat Caulkin eeked 285 whp from them with a twin cooler...

GLHSKEN
06-29-2006, 07:17 PM
And they were maxxed at roughly 270 whp on my car. Estimated from 20 falling to 18 psi boost (ic restriction) 109.7 mph trap speed with a 2580 weight car...

Pat Caulkin eeked 285 whp from them with a twin cooler...

BTW, Those were 2.2L cars.. 2.5's are MORE prone to detonation. I'm still with cordes. Add fuel... EGT's are funky based on placement. I've seen a car survive literally hundred's of passes at 1750+ EGT's.

Dave
06-29-2006, 09:37 PM
I've seen a stock headed 2.5L make 330 whp with a similar set-up... So no, 250 is t=not the limitation on the head. The car in question was running a t3/4 50 trim stage 2.

Yah but how many lbs?? Probally over 25psi, right?

Ugh.... I hate the 2.5's... the heads do suck. Someone can vouge for me on this, right? C'mon my powerband stops at 5,500. Rob's shifting his 2.4 at 7k. :amen:

Frank, what I was saying is that at 20psi his head is holding him back significantly. Not holding him back from over 250whp. Of course it can be done, but why work the turbo so hard?

Stinkbox
06-30-2006, 12:11 AM
with the stage 3 turbine and .63 a/r housing with 3" out the back my car has absolutely no breathing problems. i constantly run right into rev limit especially in 1st gear. i need like another 500-1000 rpm on my rev limiter since my power band isn't until almost 4k. it definetly ran out of breath with the stock mitsu after 5k though.

turbovanmanČ
06-30-2006, 01:27 AM
You need slicks to launch that sucker, the turbo won't spool until you get down the track and then its too late. Slicks, load it up at the start line and I guarantee you'll drop some serious time.

BadAssPerformance
06-30-2006, 01:42 AM
Yep... with my T3/T4B and A555 I leave at 4500 on slicks:thumb:

Stinkbox
06-30-2006, 01:45 AM
im sick of replacing trannies though do to diff pins. im on my fourth tranny in the car. blew one auto 2 yrs ago on a down shift then got a used one and then swapped in a 523 acouple months later, ran that one for about a yr then blew the diff, got another used 523 and had it in for about 6 months and just blew it like a month ago. auto is back in for now until i get a new clutch, picked up another 523 but put in the dodge diff pin retainers this time, hopefully this will keep the pin in alittle longer.

Stinkbox
06-30-2006, 01:47 AM
so has anybody agreed on why im not making 300hp or over since my turbo is good for over 400hp.

BadAssPerformance
06-30-2006, 01:47 AM
You need an A555 or A568 :thumb:

Stinkbox
06-30-2006, 02:12 AM
can i put a 568 or 555 4 pinion diff in my 523?

Frank
06-30-2006, 06:11 AM
so has anybody agreed on why im not making 300hp or over since my turbo is good for over 400hp.

just because the turbo is good for 400hp, doesnt mean it is good with your engine. it would be different if it was a nice reving 16v setup, but it is not. change to something like a super60. it will make a world of a difference.

BadAssPerformance
06-30-2006, 07:57 AM
can i put a 568 or 555 4 pinion diff in my 523?

I beleive you could use the 568 diff if you take the mainshaft with it, then you'll just break the teeth off the 523 2nd or 3rd gear...

BadAssPerformance
06-30-2006, 07:58 AM
just because the turbo is good for 400hp, doesnt mean it is good with your engine. it would be different if it was a nice reving 16v setup, but it is not. change to something like a super60. it will make a world of a difference.

True, another good option would be to get a better flowing 8V head to use the turbo you have :thumb:

turbovanmanČ
06-30-2006, 11:54 AM
im sick of replacing trannies though do to diff pins. im on my fourth tranny in the car. blew one auto 2 yrs ago on a down shift then got a used one and then swapped in a 523 acouple months later, ran that one for about a yr then blew the diff, got another used 523 and had it in for about 6 months and just blew it like a month ago. auto is back in for now until i get a new clutch, picked up another 523 but put in the dodge diff pin retainers this time, hopefully this will keep the pin in alittle longer.

Try buying a rebuilt trans and installing a Quaife or OBX. You can't replace crap with crap and expect it to live, :confused:


so has anybody agreed on why im not making 300hp or over since my turbo is good for over 400hp.


That turbo is killing you, you probably are making that kind of power but not being able to launch is one thing and that turbo probably wakes up at the end of you run. YOu need some tuning, you can't expect to throw it together and go fast.

Stinkbox
06-30-2006, 07:49 PM
i haven't had any problems with my synchros going bad except in my first 5 speed where i was beating the ---- outta it, laying tire in first and tyring to shift into second acouple times killed my second gear synchro but i learned from that and don't drive like a retard anymore lol. my gears always held up fine so couldn't i just take a 4 pinion diff and take off my ring gear from my 523 diff and put it on the 568 diff so i don't have to change gear sets? i realize that i don't get carp for boost in 1st but soon as i get into 2nd im pulling the whole way down the track. i wasn't getting good boost until about the 60ft mark but after that i was good. i even launched at 4k and it bogged to about 3k guess im gonna have to slip it out at rev limit haha. go check out turbos unleashed website and check out the to4b super v trim. it flows so much air compared to everything else on there, 51 lbs/min. i realize that the turbine is too big for this motor. i have super sweet exhaust flow since i ported the mani and when i reach full boost my external wastegate opens up which is welded right under my # 2 runner and dumps out exhaust from 1 and 2 so it doesn't even have to go the whole way across the mani to the turbo. i forgot to mention i have a 52mm throttle body, 2.25 and 2.5" hard intercooler pipes with an rfl on it. should i just take the extra head i have laying around and port the crap outta it for some more flow?

Stinkbox
06-30-2006, 07:52 PM
im really just looking for a car that pulls hard on the highway since its a front wheel drive and i have a big turbine so from dead stops its useless. i just wanna mash it in 3rd gear and pull on some cars. i don't care about et's im looking at mph instead knowing that my car is way to hard to launch.

turbovanmanČ
06-30-2006, 08:16 PM
A nice ported 2 piece or even 2 piece with a custom plenum would be nice, a properly ported head would do wonders and if you can find a TBI header would help. Try playing with cam timing, I play with mine and it makes a big difference in the power band.

Stinkbox
06-30-2006, 08:31 PM
how am i gonna play with cam timing, i don't have an adjustable pulley? i don't think i need a different manifold since i have my wastegate on it and that helps it flow way better.

glhs875
06-30-2006, 08:50 PM
well my egt's are at 1500 under full boost and my autometer a/f guage has only the last 2 lines lit up so its still getting fuel. i know it needs more but its working fine for now.

I don't know about your Autometer guage or car, but my car runs best with only 1 to 2 green lights showing, along with still a little orange. That was mid to high .8 volts checking it with a multimeter.

glhs875
06-30-2006, 08:56 PM
I think he can end up running good if he just works on the tune. I built a Charger for a customer with a .040 2.5, bone stock head, cam, intake only had the bumps removed, 46mm TB, and ported stock ex manifold, SRT4 intercooler,50 trim hybrid stage 3 exhaust. Runs in the 8.30's at 18psi. And I'm sure it could do even better with more tuning.

turbovanmanČ
07-01-2006, 11:47 AM
how am i gonna play with cam timing, i don't have an adjustable pulley? i don't think i need a different manifold since i have my wastegate on it and that helps it flow way better.

You need to buy an adjustable cam sprocket, worth every penny, :thumb:

John B
07-01-2006, 02:58 PM
You need to buy an adjustable cam sprocket, worth every penny, :thumb: Yup! Fun too!

Stinkbox
07-02-2006, 08:15 PM
so advancing the cam timing will lower the powerband right? so how much should i go? how much lower will it take it and will my top end suffer?

cordes
07-02-2006, 09:20 PM
how am i gonna play with cam timing, i don't have an adjustable pulley? i don't think i need a different manifold since i have my wastegate on it and that helps it flow way better.

IIRC a heavily ported stock ex. manifold only flows about 3% more than a stock one. :( A TBI header or one of TUs pieces would do wonders for your setup.

turbovanmanČ
07-02-2006, 10:09 PM
so advancing the cam timing will lower the powerband right? so how much should i go? how much lower will it take it and will my top end suffer?


Advancing the cam timing-the turbo spools up faster but the tradeoff is a softer top end.
Retarding-sluggish bottom end but killer top end.

Go 2 deg at a time, you don't think 2 deg will make much of a difference but it really does.

Stinkbox
07-03-2006, 02:56 AM
how many degrees is one tooth on the stock sprocket just for curiosity, i know it will be too much?

The S is Silent
07-03-2006, 11:05 AM
360 degrees divided by 40 teeth. 9 degrees per tooth. Two rotations of the crank per rotation of the cam means each tooth is 18 degrees of total timing.

So yeah...not much flexibility there. Its enough to make me worry about being off one tooth when I start my charger up for the first time.