Good or bad: synchro, pad fork picture

[135sohc]

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272875th doesnt take as much abuse like 1-4 but could this be a sign of good things ? Not sure whats considered 'worn' vs the standard new spec.

[BadAssPerformance]

Was it having 5th gear issues? I would say looks OK, but hard to know for sure with them still installed.

[135sohc]

Was told it was running well without issues. I'm just doing a clean up, new seals, resealing the anerobic portions and checking the specs w/dial indicator before dropping it in the car.

[turbo84voyager]

Looks good from what I can see, I would run it. I have never seen an actuial spec for these, I am sure there is. Is there slop in the fork? If not leave it alone. 1-2 usuially takes the most beating atleast from my experience.

[135sohc]

So some awesome grey sparkled 'stuff' was flowing out as I opened it up. which led me to further digging deeper... And what did I find???!!!

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Found the aluminum source and something even better :( Even without the 'ears' arnt those pinion shafts supposed to be secured with a roll pin ? She was walkin' and its not midnight yet...

looks like two new diff bearings and figure out what to do with this mess at the minimum.

[turbovanman²]

The shift pad looks a bit iffy but from the pic you've posted, the pointy synchro bits look good, :nod:

You were supposed to remove the roll pin when using those ears, but I still like to use the roll pin, stops the shaft from wearing out the diff housing.

[135sohc]

Those 'ear' things were a joke, neither one fit tightly against the housing, both were cracked and the one was cutting the transmission case from where the pin was pushing on it and bending it out, dont think they were the mopar made pieces.

[135sohc]

And the unplanned for but I'm glad I did now tear-down with pictures since we all like those. :eyebrows:


3-4 fork & pads
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3-4 cluster assembly
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1st
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2nd
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smooth with the finger nail test.
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Seems very undersized for the load it takes ?
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1-2 fork & pads. little metal embedded and some side gouges. I may swap these for a set from another transmission or maybe just swap with 5th ?
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I'll be replacing both input shaft bearings and find some 3-4 fork pads (there not NS1 yet I hope ?) at the minimum. And probably buying the 'bearing and synchro' kit and seeing what it comes with. Oil slinger behind the I-shaft front bearing is snug in the case still so thats I good thing I guess..

[onerippinturbo2]

if you need the natural colored pads i have new ones. i also have black ones too just no grey ones.

[135sohc]

if you need the natural colored pads i have new ones. i also have black ones too just no grey ones.

for a 523/568 ?

[Ondonti]

Even if OEM is ns1, can you get some from an aftermarket trans parts supplier?

[135sohc]

Even if OEM is ns1, can you get some from an aftermarket trans parts supplier?

All of the aftermarket "kits" contain nothing more than what can still be had from chrysler/aftermarket because they are either buying it from chrysler or the companies who made it for chrysler originally.

[135sohc]

Some more questions. According to the 90 and 91 parts catalogs the 1-2 and 5th gear synchro assemblys are different between the two years. All other components related to them like the fork and pads are the same right down to the p/n listed and having both a 90 and 91 sets of parts here that checks out ok. But when doing a side by side comparison of the 1-2 & 5th clusters the synchro portion looks identical in every possible way :confused2: even switching parts around everything goes together and functions like normal. I dont remember the build date for the 91 set of parts but it is a large spline input so its certainly a '91' model year transmission as far as production goes.

[BadAssPerformance]

I used some 90 parts to fix my 91 the last time I had it out. I used 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears and a 2nd gear stop ring. I did not notice any differences between any of those parts but did see some slight differences in the pad material on the stop rings in the spare parts box. I did not notice any differences in the syncro rings but didnt use and so didnt look as hard at them. I did however notice that the 91 3/4 fork was a tiny little bit beefier.

[135sohc]

Good to hear.

[135sohc]

1st gear blocker ring. Is there a published wear spec for these ?

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[BadAssPerformance]

No idea what the spec ism, but it looks OK to me but 1st usually does unless you downshift hard a bunch. How does 2nd gear look?

[135sohc]

Same condition overall.

Last night to waste time I took the rest of the assembly apart to closely inspect each gear. 1-3rd and to a lesser extent 4th were just plain nasty IMO though. Excessive 'normal' wear and a few broken teeth on both 2 and 3.

Has anyone ever thought about getting the teeth welded up and reshaped to replace whats worn off ?

[BadAssPerformance]

I wish there was a way! Its hard to do that to heat treated steel. :(

[shackwrrr]

you can reshape them with a small file, Just make them pointy again and they will be good. No need to add material.

[135sohc]

I wish there was a way! Its hard to do that to heat treated steel. :(

So when you gonna fire up the forge, cnc and make us some new gears then ? It just kills me every time I think about how much stuff new venture made for everyone and our transmissions are such oddball things compared to everyone else.


you can reshape them with a small file, Just make them pointy again and they will be good. No need to add material.

2nd gear was the worst just from all the mashed metal burr's that were formed up top. I took a dremel with a sanding drum and gently whizzed the worst of the offending crap off but didnt want to go much further. I'll try the file idea tommorrow though. My spare parts 523 will be giving up its selector rings to the cause though, they were all in much better shape. I'm thinking newer/better/more pointy-points will mesh better with the more rounded over points than trying to mesh two semi rounded over spinning metal objects.

[BadAssPerformance]

Yeah we got screwed, LOL...

Wonder if the dog teeth can just be "sharpened" ?

[135sohc]

Unrelated to the current rebuilding process. 2-3-4-5 in my DD have been 'notchy' when its very cold outside and yesterday 5th wouldnt even work :confused2: So I took the end cover off to see if there was anything outwardly wrong. Expected to find a mess inside there but quite the opposite... :confused: Didnt go any further than 5th since there wasnt much to see further in. All original 255,000 miles
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Found a shifter adjustment lock pin so tomorrow I'll readjust the crossover cable.

[BadAssPerformance]

255k, wow.. not too bad there.

As for notchy shifting, bushings OK? What oil is in it? If it gets better once its warm, could be an oil issue?

[135sohc]

Its a mixture of poly and factory bushings. Castrol 5w30, when its warm outside everything is ok.

[BadAssPerformance]

How long has the oil been in there? I used to run Castrol 5w30 in a 520 and it was find year round, but ran Castrol 10w40 once (all I had when the trans was apart) and it was HARD to shift in the winter until it warned up. ... Maybe Redline MTL would be better?

[135sohc]

Some of the oil in there was probably the original factory fill, its been 'exchanged' a couple times but never a complete drain and refill to get everything out. I have 2 quarts of amsoil 5w30 MTL but I dont know how well it would mix with the c0cktail of stuff in there now ?

[BadAssPerformance]

Hmmm.... yeah need to flush it out. no drain plug mod yet I take it? Pulling an daxle and tilting the car on its side very carefully can get some more out?

[135sohc]

No drain plug yet. The diff would have to come out and thats a whole can of worms I'm not ready for yet.
I think for now I'll just fill it up and let it be, keep shifting like grandpa to keep everyone inside happy. I'm wondering though if the clutch isnt fully releasing sometimes and thats the notchy-ness because the input shaft, pinion shaft, gears/snychros arnt fully freewheeling while shifting ?

I did put a 'newer' piece of brass on 5th, original looked fine but maybe it was worn enough to not grab the cone and slow things down fast enough.

[BadAssPerformance]

or theres some 200k+ mile gunk built up in the synchro sets?

[135sohc]

There was a very light grey residue coating on everything, especially in the oil sump but hardly anything to get excited over.

[Force Fed Mopar]

I'm running 5w20 oil in mine right now, shifts the same as it did w/ ATF+4. My shifter is worn a bit though, the white plastic pivot ball in the shifter has play in it. Causes some missed shifts when speed shifting, probably some notchiness too.

BTW I was able to install a drain plug in my trans in the car, w/o removing anything. Was just real slow and careful about it. The little bit of shavings that might go through when the bit breaks through will flow out with the oil draining out. Been driving on it for a year now w/o any issues from it. Just make sure you use a thread sealer on it, even with a pipe plug.

[135sohc]

filled it up w/fresh 5w30 and played with the shifter adjustment. Crossed my fingers while pulling out of the driveway and went for a short test drive... All is good so far and maybe improved. Found the source of some annoying persistent noise and it turned out to be the shifter bushing for the selector cable, quick spray of lube shut it up.

[BadAssPerformance]

Cool, glad its better, ready for another 200k miles ;)

[135sohc]

Little update on this. Nothing worse but nothing really improved enough to say its 'fixed' to my liking or maybe I've just become over sensative from driving other newer 5 speed cars that have much more greatly refined transmissions ? and what feels like I'm forcing it into gear is actually 'normal' for a 523 especially when its got a ton of miles on it like this one does.? Either way after the little tear down and inspection last week I have a much higher and renewed level of confidence that this transmission can live to atleast 300k and not be in danger of self destructing and leaving me stranded somewhere. Some time probably this coming spring I will drop it out to replace atleast the input shaft bearings (now that I have the tools to service them) and the differential bearings (still source the tools) since they are most definetly worn and the source of the noise when coasting in gear.

[shackwrrr]

Did you sharpen the dog teeth at all? That will cause it to be hard to get into gear.

Why did this topic get locked?

[135sohc]

Didnt touch anything, the teeth on the 523 parts were all still in very good shape. Locked part was an oops.

[BadAssPerformance]

Maybe with that many miles it could be sloppy shift forks or rails or rail bushings too? Ya know, like something is binding?

By "sloppy" I mean like the fork slops around on the rod so engagement to the slider is not as perpendicular as it could be... or maybe something bent?

[cordes]

Maybe with that many miles it could be sloppy shift forks or rails or rail bushings too? Ya know, like something is binding?

By "sloppy" I mean like the fork slops around on the rod so engagement to the slider is not as perpendicular as it could be... or maybe something bent?

I could easily see that as being the case. I would check the fitment of the forks to the rails for sure.

[135sohc]

All of the forks seemed to still have a tight fit on the rails, none of the roll pin holes were hogged out or sloppy from what I could see/feel with the end cover off. I thought about those little bushings... Are they tinned bronze or just a highly polished steel insert ?

my normal shift sequence is 1-2 @ 15 mph, 2-3 @ 20-25, 3-4 @ 30 mph and 5th @ 40 mph. very little rpm change between gears

---------- Post added at 01:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:40 PM ----------

Add on: If something was bent wouldnt the fork pads show signs of distress ? You saw the pictures, those 5th fork pads hardly have a wear groove on them.

[135sohc]

Doing some cleaning up I came across these parts and before tossing them into the scrap can. I took some pictures to show what kind of damage happens when you dont know how to shift a transmission and the effects of not
having the plastic fork inserts between the different moving parts.

Background history: 568 was w/approx 150,000 miles. If thats true it was a VERY hard 150k. The original inserts on the 3rd side of the 3-4 fork were melted like a hot knife through butter. The dog teeth on the 3rd gear and matching selector ring showed the abuse. Like little ball peen hammers were in there beating everything to pulp.

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This is what they should look like. nice and pointy so everything slides together when shifting. 4th side of the same selector ring.
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and on another related note I have been dealing with a persistent oil seeping issue from the rear of the shifter housing. Removed the housing and noticed something BAD. Whether they fell off during reassembly, broke because of fatigue or got destroyed during the first few weeks of learning how to drive a transmission with effectively no synchronizer on 3rd gear I dont know and will probably never know.The 3-4 inserts were gone from sight and still are presumed KIA in the ring gear sump. Even with the missing inserts the shifting effort/feel was normal and no metallic dragging noise was heard.

Because I had to do a somewhat 'emergency' driveway teardown to replace the missing pads I replaced the original FUBAR'ed 3-4 selector ring with one from my parts donor as a last ditch attempt to keep the 3rd gear from grinding. It worked :)



I'm thinking about getting this fork rebuild with brazing rod to replace the stock plastic pads. I dont have a torch though or really know how to braze anyways so thats off in the future sometime maybe.
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[Ondonti]

Great thread from the past. I don't think it made sense to me prior to ever having a full transmission apart.

If you didn't get your shifting exactly how you want it in your DD, I would say that the grey slime you were noticing is causing friction on all the gears so they are not freewheeling like they should. I had this happen to a HUGE extent on the Junkyard's transmission. When the case was getting eaten up by the bearing shaft sliding off, every nook and cranny was full lf aluminum paste and my gears were all seizing on the shaft once it had sat for a few years.
The 1-2 sychro assemblies got rust on them and that little bit of rust being cleaned off mean't they were now too thin to function. They get stuck on the cone of the gear instead. :(

Wish we had some good numbers to check things with feeler gages. Jackson posted a number for the brass and thats it. Kinda want to find that note again. We need a knowledge center article about transmission issues/repair with great pics like these!

[Lotashelbys]

Wish we had some good numbers to check things with feeler gages. Jackson posted a number for the brass and thats it. Kinda want to find that note again. We need a knowledge center article about transmission issues/repair with great pics like these!

I will get you guys a set of specs for both the 3 piece and brass rings. I will take a few pics showing how I measure them. I have a few NOS 3-4-5 brass rings to get "new" spec and I have a few low low mile 1-2s that look to me like a "new" condition synchro to get #s off of.

Also for re-sharpening teeth on the speed gears and sleeves I have been doing this for a few years now. I use a Dremel with a round stone and it works well. I have saved some ugly looking teeth on both gear and sleeve and installed a synchro that measured better than what came out and it would shift as good as one that had good looking teeth.