SOHC 16V hybrid?

[audiomaninc]

Has anybody done this? I happen to have a 2nd gen Neon R/T 2.0l magnum engine laying around. If I could do the swap with this head/intake etc., instead of trying to track down parts for a DOHC swap, that'd be neat.

[turbovanman²]

Yes, its been done, not sure who did it though, can't remember.

[BadAssPerformance]

What are your goals for the car? A full 2.0L SOHC 16V has a lot of potential as it sits w/o making a hybrid

[audiomaninc]

well I've got a pretty well built 2.5l bottom end sitting in my daytona with a stock 8v head on it. I'd like to have the car realistically run 12.0/11.90 in the 1/4, and I'm looking at every option to get the power under the hood to get it there. I'll have the car apart this winter and early spring before the track opens to lighten it as much as possible without making it "look" like a racecar so it'll be easier to reach my goal. I figure I'll need in the neighborhood of 350-400hp to propel the car to that time (I'll also need to get it to the ground, but that's another thing). I'd originally had a 60 trim compressor in a stock housing, with a clipped turbine wheel in a .48a/r housing, but even before the thing disintegrated, it felt like I was running out of power as early as 4000rpm. I'm thinking this had as much if not more to do with the head, as it had to do with the turbo. I know this goal can be had with an 8v head, but it just seems like a 16v is the "smarter" and easier way to get there. Decisions decisions...

[BadAssPerformance]

I guess it depends on how much you want to fabricate stuff to make the hybrid vs. getting a better flowing head and larger turbo.

If it was running out of power at 4k RPM that may be the head but possibly the cam or cam timing as a stock Garrett on a stock head will pull past 5k.

[Aries_Turbo]

the magnum head is supposed to flow pretty good too.

what you have to ask yourself is can you do all the custom mods/lines/etc for less than the 800$ + machining that you can build the 2.0L bottom end for.

Brian

[BadAssPerformance]

the magnum head is supposed to flow pretty good too.

what you have to ask yourself is can you do all the custom mods/lines/etc for less than the 800$ + machining that you can build the 2.0L bottom end for.

Brian

Or score a hi-flo 8V head for...

[Aries_Turbo]

i dunno, a 8v one off head seems more rare and risky to break than a sohc magnum though they are a little bit hard to come buy.

Brian

[BadAssPerformance]

There have been some used ones for sale recently that would be an easy bolt on to his 2.5L bottom end and easier then a hybrid.

Before doing anything I'd figure out why its not pulling past 4k

[Aries_Turbo]

yeah that would be cheaper than both other options, built 2.0 or hybrid 2.5.

revs.... probably cam timing advanced 1 tooth.

Brian

[ShadowFromHell]

I don't see why you couldn't do it, but if you are going to go through all that work use a DOHC head. I know the magnum flows well, but I think it still flows less then a DOHC head. Those are worth a pretty penny too, I would sell to a neon guy and use the money to buy a DOHC head+parts.

Normal SOHC heads are junk. The flow numbers are on par with a stock 8v head. I looked into using one of those instead of a DOHC, because I have a SOHC turbo kit. Once I found the flow numbers I quickly abandoned that idea.

[audiomaninc]

There have been some used ones for sale recently that would be an easy bolt on to his 2.5L bottom end and easier then a hybrid.

Before doing anything I'd figure out why its not pulling past 4k

I'd imagine a big part of the lameness at 4k had something to do with the turbo falling apart. With a stock Garrett on it, it pulls to 5k plus. I know it will probably be "easier" to do this build just using an 8V head, maybe I'll just do that and put the 16V idea on the backburner. It's just hard to drive my Neon, which doesn't start moving until 6k, then hop in the Daytona, and it feels out of breath at 5500...I guess I could start playing with the adjustable cam gear.

[boost geek]

I have an '01 Magnum R/T 2.0 sohc head that need lots of work if someone wants to run it in a bandsaw for cutaway pics...:eyebrows:

[BadAssPerformance]

I have an '01 Magnum R/T 2.0 sohc head that need lots of work if someone wants to run it in a bandsaw for cutaway pics...:eyebrows:

Do eeeet! :nod:

[Ondonti]

or use the entire stock 2.0 motor but run a better turbo setup....That would be cheaper then running buttloads of boost and needing a built engine to run a 12.0
Throw a holset on there. Bet it stomps for the least cash.

[audiomaninc]

but something tells me a Holset on a 9.8:1 2.0l would go boom pretty quick...It might run a 12.0 once though

[Aries_Turbo]

yup, LW stock rods and weak pistons. that said, i havent seen too many that were super finely tuned on stock internals. alot of rising rate and MS builds with not the best of tuning.

Brian

[contraption22]

Not sure what the power ceiling is, but I have heard of problems with pushing the 2.0L block too far because it is an open deck design.

[Aries_Turbo]

yeah but thats like at over 500whp. there is a guy with a 420a eclipse with 600+ at the wheels.

brian

[Aries_Turbo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIGDvx1Ci9E&feature=related

it may or may not be a time bomb, but it does make power.

[OmniLuvr]

i like how this is the "hybrid" section, and theres people telling you to just run a 2.0? dude, he drives a daytona, how do you think it will drive around town with no torque? i hated my 5spd 2.2 t2 daytona, it was a dog til boost kicked in, then it still sucked, although i was only at 14 psi on stock stuff.

as stated in other threads, hybrid is nice because tranny, starter, motor mounts, and most acc still bolt up fine.

he also stated that his 2.5 bottom end is built already, why would he spend a bunch of cash tryin to stick a 2.0 in there?

also, if he builds his block to be a hybrid, it should be almost a bolt on deal to go from sohc hybrid to dohc... and with the correct sohc head, it will flow more then a built 8v head, and those heads are goin for over 500 bucks easy, used, without a cam!

plus with a sohc hybrid, it will only need ONE cam gear, prob NOT a custom timing belt, and hopefully NOT a custom tensioner either. i also think the head is physically smaller, alowing more room for manifolds and turbos. not sure what kind of boost the valves can handle, or if theres a cnc port job for them either? of coarse, cnc porting will bring the price of the head up, but it still may be cheaper then a ported 8v head?

what years did they make the magnum sohc head? any other options for the sohc in stock form?

[Aries_Turbo]

settle down omniluvr. we are going through all the possible scenario.

2.0L combined with proper gearing and revving to 8k would haul.

Brian

[ShadowFromHell]

i like how this is the "hybrid" section, and theres people telling you to just run a 2.0? dude, he drives a daytona, how do you think it will drive around town with no torque? i hated my 5spd 2.2 t2 daytona, it was a dog til boost kicked in, then it still sucked, although i was only at 14 psi on stock stuff.

as stated in other threads, hybrid is nice because tranny, starter, motor mounts, and most acc still bolt up fine.

he also stated that his 2.5 bottom end is built already, why would he spend a bunch of cash tryin to stick a 2.0 in there?

also, if he builds his block to be a hybrid, it should be almost a bolt on deal to go from sohc hybrid to dohc... and with the correct sohc head, it will flow more then a built 8v head, and those heads are goin for over 500 bucks easy, used, without a cam!

plus with a sohc hybrid, it will only need ONE cam gear, prob NOT a custom timing belt, and hopefully NOT a custom tensioner either. i also think the head is physically smaller, alowing more room for manifolds and turbos. not sure what kind of boost the valves can handle, or if theres a cnc port job for them either? of coarse, cnc porting will bring the price of the head up, but it still may be cheaper then a ported 8v head?

what years did they make the magnum sohc head? any other options for the sohc in stock form?

You needed more boost! My 89 shelby tona T2/555 was a handful at 18psi. Traction was hard to find under 35-40mph! As for "when boost kicked in" that was easily fixed with proper launching/clutch technique.

[boost geek]

These heads are supposed to flow pretty good.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/Magnum-1.jpg


http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/Magnum-5.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/magnumflange.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/DSCF0025.jpg

[OmniLuvr]

ya, sorry, i was a little edgy at work today, but im trying to help the OP with his origonal question, guide him in the right direction with the parts that "he has", and the parts that he "needs" to keep it within a reasonable budget.

i mean this is a hybrid thread, not general engine asking what combo to run. "i" feel he could get a sohc hybrid goin faster then a 2.0 motor swap, depends on his fabricating skills. i like to ask more questions about the car and intended purpose before giving out opinions.

i also am contemplating the idea of a sohc hybrid, with the ability to upgrade to a dohc later. i also really want to run a 2.0, but i believe its a much better candidate for a lighter body car.

i believe i had good points in there, but i was a little hard on my daytona. i was just bummed at the power it made, or how it "felt" with a 2.2 at 14 psi, i liked the power the 2.5 made much better for the tona. i obviously love omnis, and my omni at 18psi and a g-head felt like a beast.

its time to upgrade my omni, i just purchased a jy g-head to pimp out, but would much rather make a hybrid of some sorts on a limited budget. i wanted to see how this thread went, but i was hoping for more info on how instead of why not?

so any info on what years the magnum head was available?

[Aries_Turbo]

no prob. :)

i think the sohc magnum was from 2000+?

Brian

[OmniLuvr]

sweet, thanks :thumb:

and are the magnum heads the same size combustion chambers as the dohc heads? just tryin to figure out compression ratios...

[rbryant]

There is a big thread about getting a 2.4l SOHC to work on neons.org. That will probably give you an idea about what it would take to do a 2.0 SOHC 2.2/2.5 hybrid.

Be warned, There is a lot of talk about it being a waste of time though. :)

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?t=263864
http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=367728

-Rich

[boost geek]

The Magnum R/T head only came on the ACR and Neon RT between 2001-2004.
ACR - 2001–2002
R/T - 2001–2004

[ShadowFromHell]

If you decide to go this route I have a hahn SOHC turbo manifold and a sohc 2gn (no 90) INDY I would sell cheap. I will never use them, so if you are intrested shoot me a PM.

[Ondonti]

I think its important to talk about all the aspects of a build. He owns the whole motor so its not exactly any more logical from a lazy cheap perspective.

In the end, even if you make enough theoretical mechanical power for 12.00, do you have the complimentary parts to actually fuel and create the power, and then harness the power down the track?

If your car is a bit portly, 12.00 is going to require more then just a bump in hp.
I think open deck is the last thing to worry about. Rods, yes that is a concern, Pistons, I don't worry so much about. Especially if you have the head off, you can go and regap the rings to be boost friendly.

Lacking torque is actually a good way to make rods live longer under boost. For anyone who is worried about their rods, take some timing out at peak torque and the motor will last longer, and you will probably go faster in lower gears because you can hook up better.
In general I think its fun to try something but I would check those threads posted above because you don't want to go down a deadend (aka not being able to meet your goals with reasonable expenditure).

People back in the day couldn't make 200whp reliably on a d series honda and everyone made fun of those cars that were constantly blowing up. Now people are making 350-400 on a stock d series with some brains, even on an open deck.
Now, if you can't make a solid 300whp on the 2.0 bottom then ditch my suggestion. If the car was built to make 350hp and 250tq that would do it, but 250hp and 350tq will not get the time you want, and it will want to bend the rods.

I remember people saying the 2.4 block was not strong enough because the srt-4 block had extra bracing that "proved" the 2.4 block was weak. Pretty sure a lot of people have ignored that advice and run some big numbers.

[BadAssPerformance]

i like how this is the "hybrid" section, and theres people telling you to just run a 2.0? dude, he drives a daytona, how do you think it will drive around town with no torque? i hated my 5spd 2.2 t2 daytona, it was a dog til boost kicked in, then it still sucked, although i was only at 14 psi on stock stuff.

Maybe your Daytona had issues or something... worse than EVERY other 2.2L car Ive ever driven? Don't need much torque if you know how to drive it... ;)


he also stated that his 2.5 bottom end is built already, why would he spend a bunch of cash tryin to stick a 2.0 in there?

FTR my vote for his goal is just to keep it 8V

[audiomaninc]

FTR my vote for his goal is just to keep it 8V

I think you're on to something here. I'll save the 16v for the engine stand, and keep my eyes peeled for possibly a nice used 8v big valve head.

[Ondonti]

Sounds like you are not that excited about the 16v in general so I wouldn't get to worked up over a lesser option. Sometimes we blow a lot of money on something because we were tempted by something that seemed cheap.
Sorta like how the word "sale" makes me buy way more of something at the grocery store then I can use. :nod:

[BadAssPerformance]

LOL, this is common in the Import community.. I really hate to see T3/T4 turbo'd Civics running 14's ... but thats the turbo everyone haz to haz yo

[Ondonti]

And there are nissans running 11's on T25's...

[BadAssPerformance]

And there are nissans running 11's on T25's...

And typically 6 cylinders, RB25 yo, LOL...

[puppet]

I didn't think anybody actually did this particular head mod yet? (SOHC/16v)

[BadAssPerformance]

I dont think so either... and dont understand why anyone would, but I'd rather swap than hybrid anyways, LOL

[ShadowFromHell]

I dont think so either... and dont understand why anyone would, but I'd rather swap than hybrid anyways, LOL

I use to think a 2.4 swap was the way to go. But, I have ended up with two 89 2.2 T2 motors. Plenty strong engines and very worthy of a head upgrade :p. I am a fabricator, and building mounts would be easy for me. But at the same time it will be cheaper and more cost effective to use my CB 2.2 bottoms instead of swapping them to a 2.4 unless I can get a Srt ir Pt turbo motor CHEAP.

[BadAssPerformance]

yeah it all comes down to personal preference and available resources / time money / etc !

[turbovanman²]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIGDvx1Ci9E&feature=related

it may or may not be a time bomb, but it does make power.

Sounds like shitt, :(




2.0L combined with proper gearing and revving to 8k would haul.

Brian

Around town, yuk, :p




FTR my vote for his goal is just to keep it 8V


Blasphemy, :D


I didn't think anybody actually did this particular head mod yet? (SOHC/16v)

Yes, its been done, maybe it was done in the TD.com days.

[ShadowFromHell]

You have to keep in mine he is talking about a magnum head. While a normal sohc head, and this magnum sohc is probaly about the same amount of work, a standard sohc neon head flows about the same as our 8v's.

[OmniLuvr]

well i guess il have to try it then anyways, dont know how far i will really get, but at least a mock up. i just got a 98 sohc head from a friend (for free), and im going to try to get it back to my house to try and fit it on my 89 CB.

the biggest thing i want to get correct is the timing belt aspect of it. i want to see how close the cam gear is to lining up with the crank, find a belt and tensioner to fit, then go from there.

i plan on fitting the regular sohc head on at first, then when i find a magnum head, il continue with getting it to run. i find it a little hard to believe the flow numbers on a regular sohc 16v head is the same as our 8v heads, but who cares for now. if ported properly, im sure it could be made to flow better then "most" 8v heads that cost 2 times as much, but i havnt done any research on this yet.

[turbovanman²]

You have to keep in mine he is talking about a magnum head. While a normal sohc head, and this magnum sohc is probaly about the same amount of work, a standard sohc neon head flows about the same as our 8v's.

There are flow numbers floating around, IIRC, they are better than a stock 8 valve head and with some work, can flow pretty good. Magnum is supposd to flow much better stock.

[boost geek]

Omniluvr, you can have my Magnum head if you pay shipping. It needs lots of work, one chamber got hammered from a piston/rod that let go at 100 kmh being towed behind a motorhome in first gear. It was a low mile head, needs all new guides and some seats, most of the valves ended up bending, but only one chamber got beat up. If you put a magnum beside a regular sohc, you would strip the valve gear out of the reg. head and throw it away. It's a bare head, sold the cam and Crane springs that I had for it.

[ShadowFromHell]

The numbers I saw (not mine, so its hearsay) said the intake side flowed better, and the exhaust flowed less then a 8v. If you have ever looked into a sohc 16v exhaust port you would understand why. There is a water jacket running right through the bottom of it, blocking like half the port. It really looks someone designed it to flow, and then someone else came in and stuck a water jacket right in the middle of the road.

I really wish the sohc 16vs flowed comparable to the DOHC's. If so, I think alot of people would go that route. I would! I don't know what a magnum head is going for these days, but I know they are sought after. The DOHC heads liter the local jy's and I know I can get one cheap.

[BadAssPerformance]

Omniluvr, you can have my Magnum head if you pay shipping. It needs lots of work, one chamber got hammered from a piston/rod that let go at 100 kmh being towed behind a motorhome in first gear. It was a low mile head, needs all new guides and some seats, most of the valves ended up bending, but only one chamber got beat up. If you put a magnum beside a regular sohc, you would strip the valve gear out of the reg. head and throw it away. It's a bare head, sold the cam and Crane springs that I had for it.

Cut it we need pics! LOL!


The numbers I saw (not mine, so its hearsay) said the intake side flowed better, and the exhaust flowed less then a 8v. If you have ever looked into a sohc 16v exhaust port you would understand why. There is a water jacket running right through the bottom of it, blocking like half the port. It really looks someone designed it to flow, and then someone else came in and stuck a water jacket right in the middle of the road.

I really wish the sohc 16vs flowed comparable to the DOHC's. If so, I think alot of people would go that route. I would! I don't know what a magnum head is going for these days, but I know they are sought after. The DOHC heads liter the local jy's and I know I can get one cheap.

The hump/blocked port is an attempt to make a generous short radius for flow, but yeah, even the DOHC exhaust ports are blocked pretty good.

The Magnum SOHC head is supposed to flow quite well even in stock form I am sure it outflows a stock 8V head but dont have numbers :o

For a "race" application with 16V... DOHC has the advantage of cams, both availability of options and ability to change intake to exhaust timing

[boost geek]

The exhaust ports for the 2 heads are apples and oranges. If he doesn't want the head, the offer stands for who ever else wants it, I don't have access to e real good bandsaw, the one at work is not all that great.

[BadAssPerformance]

Simon or anyone is BC got one to save shipping it to me or Steve?

[OmniLuvr]

thats a good idea and nice offer boost geek, i appreciate it. i figured i would get new valves, springs and a cam for my sohc build anyways, and didnt really want to put that money into a regular sohc head.

im kinda worried, but do you have any pics of the bad combustion chamber? i just want to see how much work i have to put into it? i finally got my cast off after 10 weeks, and im ready to start fabbin.

i just really like the idea off a crossflow head compaired to an 8v. again, i just purchased a g-head from the yard last weekend, but would really like to move a step forward, even if the sohc 16v head is only a half a step forward:o i still might try to finish my 8v build, i was going to run a g-head with t3 pistons, which are already in the block, but id rather find some flat tops for the g, and save the t3's for the hybrid.

[OmniLuvr]

oh ya, and does the magnum head have the new style cooling passages or old style? i thought there was a difference and im tryin to figure out what headgasket to purchase... when that time comes...

[boost geek]

I'll click and post some pic's this afternoon.

[puppet]

Yes, its been done, maybe it was done in the TD.com days.I think you're mistaken ... I think. I know Andre was looking into it and there was a HUGE thread @TD started by him but, AFAIK the ball got dropped. A couple other guys talked about it in the thread but??

[Aries_Turbo]

what was andre's screen name? i cant remember.

Brian

[thedon809]

You can completely remove the hump in the exhaust port of the sohc.
Read.
http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=349004

[ShadowBrad]

I remember a thread about a SOHC Hybrid being build over at the other site long ago. I thought that the project got abandoned due to the cam gear sitting a lot lower than an 8v head and it was interfering with the passenger side motor mount?

[BadAssPerformance]

what was andre's screen name? i cant remember.

Brian

Maybe AndreParker ???

[ShadowFromHell]

You can completely remove the hump in the exhaust port of the sohc.
Read.
http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=349004

Really? That is good to hear. A buddy of mine use to have a 2g, and he said he had looked into that, and it wasn't possible to remove it as it was a water passage. :) Makes me think a SOHC/hybrid may not be a bad idea if you can make the head flow. I have a chill factory turbo mani and a INDY intake for a sohc in the garage. I looked into building a sohc hybrid with those parts but the flow numbers killed that idea for me. Will the DOHC dizzy adaptor work for on a SOHC head?

[Vigo]

but something tells me a Holset on a 9.8:1 2.0l would go boom pretty quick...It might run a 12.0 once though

Eh, the turbo doesnt matter, (only intake pressure and charge temp, many ways to get to the same place) and 10:1 compression doesnt mean its going to blow up either. Ondonti went 11s on a 10:1 compression motor. Sure it blew up.. after it went lean. Lower compression cant fix that.


there is a guy with a 420a eclipse with 600+ at the wheels.

I like that turbo setup but he really needs to do something about his motor mounts...


dude, he drives a daytona, how do you think it will drive around town with no torque?

uh, better than a stock t2? A 10:1 sohc neon 2.0 makes more torque than our 7.8:1 2.2 does (before boost). I dont know what the OP was talking about his neon not making power til 6k. I had a sohc neon that was VERY torquey-feeling. Weight and gearing are 2 good ways to screw that up, though.


Maybe your Daytona had issues or something... worse than EVERY other 2.2L car Ive ever driven?

Eh, i had all 2.5s and went out of my way to build a 2.2 t2.. very underwhelming. It didnt start feeling 'good' until 15psi. At stock boost it trapped 86 mph.. slower than my old intrepid and sohc neon.

Im vaguely interested to see the sohc hybrid..

What im MORE interested in is seeing a 420a head hybrid. I had one of those but was trying to downsize and sold it. Downsizing never seems to stick, either..

[boost geek]

Ok, sorry I took so long, was gone this afternoon. I havent looked at this head for so long, that I forgot I had it welded already. My friend deshrouded the chambers, and did some porting in the ex bowls on one chamber. If you have a die grinder, you could match the other 3, and clean up the damaged chamber. Just getting the head decked would make a huge difference. The head needs 16 guides and 4 seats in the bad chamber. I would also helicoil the 1 spark plug hole.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_4122.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_4121.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_4124.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_4125.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_4126.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_4128.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_4127.jpg

[boost geek]

Sorry, dial-uppers...

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_4128.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_4129.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_4130.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_4131.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_4132.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_4135.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_4134.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_4136.jpg

[OmniLuvr]

eesh, that chamber is pretty bad, that sucks.

so how many times has it been welded? and when i say that, i mean, was it welded, then grinded, then welded again?

id like to know because you dont want to put the chamber through to many heat cycles by over welding an area, plus its better to heat the entire head before welding a chamber.

at least if i buy valves and springs for that head, i guess i can swap them to another head if that one fails, but the new seats and guides all stay :(

let me talk to my machinist guy, il see what he says, ive brought a lot of work to him over the years, so maybe he will hook me up a little bit on this one in case it fails, but il find out if he will even attempt it first.

[boost geek]

This head was welded once. If you plane the head I bet it won't look too bad.

[turbovanman²]

Simon or anyone is BC got one to save shipping it to me or Steve?

I can get it done, :nod:



I think you're mistaken ... I think. I know Andre was looking into it and there was a HUGE thread @TD started by him but, AFAIK the ball got dropped. A couple other guys talked about it in the thread but??

I would bet my left nut it was done. I do remember the cam gear was lower as someone mentioned but creative grinding fixed that, lol.

[boost geek]

The stock motor mount works with grinding, I may still have laying around.