WOT vs Part Throttle timing

[Force Fed Mopar]

My car feels stronger at part throttle than it does at WOT. Looking at the tables Part-throttle seems to have less timing than the WOT, I'm thinking maybe it's detecting knock at WOT and pulling timing way back? I was thinking to match the Part-throttle and WOT timing in boost, is this safe to do? Posting screenshots of my timing maps.

[Juggy]

i was told to keep them the same at anything with 5 or more psi boost

[Force Fed Mopar]

I am right in saying that the part-throttle has less timing than the wot, right? If I'm reading it right it's pulling the timing back more according to the map signal. Like at 17psi it is retarding 17 degrees, whereas at wot it is only retarding about 13 degrees. I have the cel flash turned on but my Power Loss light is pretty flaky, kinda comes and goes when it wants. I've never seen it flash under power, either part or wide open throttle.

[bakes]

is it me or is the table descripton backwards to the group name

[Force Fed Mopar]

is it me or is the table descripton backwards to the group name

Damn, you are right, I didn't even notice. Wonder if the maps are labeled wrong? Like maybe the part throttle map is actually the full throttle map? Might explain my issue.

[Juggy]

HOTMAP is first pic
WOTMAP is 2nd pic

cyan is HOTMAP and red is WOTMAP in the 3rd pic

but yeah I see what bakes is saying about them looking backwards, but they are not....its just that your WOT could prolly use adjustment, by moving the 2 red points that fall UNDER the HOTMAP (part throttle), and place them above the cyan line.....you could also possibly move the first one out more to help the curve....but DO NOT just listen to me, you should know your car so adjust timing accordingly.....

but if your part throttle is fine im pretty positve youd have no issue bumping up the WOT curve in that area where it falls under the part throttle curve...

[Force Fed Mopar]

No, we mean the Table Description, the one under the group list on the left. The little box that gives you a description of whatever table you have selected.

When you select AdvanceFromMapWarmFull, the table description is "Curve for Spark Advance from MAP when Engine Temp is above TMPSWP and not at Full Throttle."

When you select AdvanceFromMapWarmPart, it says "Curve for Spark Advance from MAP when Engine Temp is above TMPSWP and at Full Throttle."

So the question is, are descriptions wrong, or are the tables wrong? I dunno how to check addresses or whatever to verify if the Part table actually the part table w/ a wrong description, or if it's actually the WOT table w/ a incorrect title.

I know the cyan line is the currently selected table and the red line is the comparison table.

[ShelGame]

The description is wrong, the labels and names are correct.

T-LM v12 has this (and many other things) fixed. There's a pre-release of it posted in the T-LM thread...

[turbovanman²]

What's the af ratio?

I would smooth out the ramps a bit, its a bit all over the place style.

I put both maps the same.

[CNH320]

Yeah the difference you're feeling could be the A/F ratio since Part Throttle youll be running close to stoich and at WOT you'll have enrichment...

[Force Fed Mopar]

Maybe, I gotta get a wideband for it. We used Kevin's when originally tuning it, got the AF to right on 11.5-11.9 at WOT under boost, but since his wb is in Texas with him... IIRC the part-throttle in-boost AF's were in the 12's somewhere.

[DodgeZ]

The cal he is using is a test tune. We were dialing in the fuel but the car was still slow as ----. I had to take out a ton of fuel, I think he has 58lbs injectors not 52s. So we tried playing around with the timing. Giving more timing in PTB then in WOT and then more timing in WOT then in PTB. Didn't change anything. The tune shouldn't be driven on at this point. It was a temporary tune so he could sort out issues with the car. Since the tune made the old worn out lifters were replaced, the turbo that was shot was replaced with a different sized turbo, and boost leaks were fixed. It also had an issue where the check engine light would randomly come on, did you figure that out? It really needs the tune started over scaling for 58's now that most of the mechanical issues are fixed. Instead of getting a wide band on the car and reverting back to a cal that didn't have the timing jacked up he bumped the boost from 15psi to 20psi. Who knows what the PTB fuel looks like at 20psi. It is prolly lean as hell which is why it is fast. Rob also likes to race around at PTB instead of putting it the floor.

[Force Fed Mopar]

What can I say, I'm brave lol.

[DodgeZ]

I hear you....

[DodgeZ]

see if this v10 runs better.

[Force Fed Mopar]

I hear you....

Ok fine, I have confidence in my engine building and your tuning, how's that? :thumb:

Rob, I just tried that V12 cal Kevin posted in my car. Used the MP Stage II template, scaled for 58lb injectors (I have +40's, current v10 cal scaled for 52 needed a bunch more fuel removed). Won't start unless I have my foot on the gas, won't idle w/o my foot on the gas, smells rich.

Kevin, my phone died, I'll try out that V10 in a bit if the rain lets up, otherwise tomorrow.

[DodgeZ]

Kevin, my phone died, I'll try out that V10 in a bit if the rain lets up, otherwise tomorrow.

dude, get out there and try that sucker out. so we can have back to back with the v12

[Force Fed Mopar]

dude, get out there and try that sucker out. so we can have back to back with the v12

Send me car port real quick then :nod:

[DodgeZ]

Send me car port real quick then :nod:

I just farted... did you get it?

[Force Fed Mopar]

I just farted... did you get it?

I hope not lol :yuck:

[Force Fed Mopar]

dude, get out there and try that sucker out. so we can have back to back with the v12

Okay, just put that V10 in, starts like a champ. If anything sounds slightly cleaner than the last V10 cal.

[Ondonti]

To explain the mechanical problem. Turbo motors tend to move a lot of air when the turbo spools up, regardless of your throttle position. That is why timing is not gonna be a whole lot different. Modified turbo setups screw up everything by removing bottlenecks so that the motor can move a LOT more air at the low throttle openings so this gets worse.
I really think you need plenty of fuel at part throttle, and safe timing at wot. Traditionally people here are afraid of part throttle boost on their pos tunes. I never ran my 3.0 in part throttle boost of more then a few pounds since I had a stock ecu back then and that ruins a lot of the fun of driving. Its fun feeling the car go quickly without giving it all the beans. :eyebrows:

Think about those guys that run a huge TB on their setup. They might gain some hp up top, but down low, they could probably go 1/4 throttle and still max out the VE of the engine.

52mm tb = that same issue compared to stock since stock is so tiny. I was running a 65mm tb on a computer meant for a 46. What TB size did your unmodified tune start out for?

Make sure to read the plugs and be careful as long as it feels slow because surely its the timing being pulled. That way you can try out anything Kevin sends you without sending yourself to the jackstands.


The sensation of holding the throttle part way, then giving it all the beans the last 1000-2000 rpms is probably so dramatic because as RPM's increase, you start maxing out the flow through whatever your TB opening is and power drops off. I bet boost falls off in a turbo car when you do that because the turbo starts unloading.

[DodgeZ]

To explain the mechanical problem. Turbo motors tend to move a lot of air when the turbo spools up, regardless of your throttle position. That is why timing is not gonna be a whole lot different. Modified turbo setups screw up everything by removing bottlenecks so that the motor can move a LOT more air at the low throttle openings so this gets worse.
I really think you need plenty of fuel at part throttle, and safe timing at wot. Traditionally people here are afraid of part throttle boost on their pos tunes. I never ran my 3.0 in part throttle boost of more then a few pounds since I had a stock ecu back then and that ruins a lot of the fun of driving. Its fun feeling the car go quickly without giving it all the beans. :eyebrows:

Think about those guys that run a huge TB on their setup. They might gain some hp up top, but down low, they could probably go 1/4 throttle and still max out the VE of the engine.

52mm tb = that same issue compared to stock since stock is so tiny. I was running a 65mm tb on a computer meant for a 46. What TB size did your unmodified tune start out for?

Make sure to read the plugs and be careful as long as it feels slow because surely its the timing being pulled. That way you can try out anything Kevin sends you without sending yourself to the jackstands.


The sensation of holding the throttle part way, then giving it all the beans the last 1000-2000 rpms is probably so dramatic because as RPM's increase, you start maxing out the flow through whatever your TB opening is and power drops off. I bet boost falls off in a turbo car when you do that because the turbo starts unloading.

He PTB'ed with his stock GLHS stageII computer also. It is just the way he rolls.

[ShelGame]

Rob, I just tried that V12 cal Kevin posted in my car. Used the MP Stage II template, scaled for 58lb injectors (I have +40's, current v10 cal scaled for 52 needed a bunch more fuel removed). Won't start unless I have my foot on the gas, won't idle w/o my foot on the gas, smells rich.


Hmm, that's a new template and it may not be 100% correct. Maybe re-try it with the A171 template and see if the results are better.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Hmm, that's a new template and it may not be 100% correct. Maybe re-try it with the A171 template and see if the results are better.

Ok I'll try it.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Haven't had a chance to mess w/ the V12 again, but the that last V10 cal has been doing pretty good. Starts and idles good cold, pulls up through the revs clean, didn't hear any spark knock but I backed out at 18 psi. Will probably hook the wga solenoid back up and hold the boost down around 15 til I get the cel issue fixed.

[DodgeZ]

Haven't had a chance to mess w/ the V12 again, but the that last V10 cal has been doing pretty good. Starts and idles good cold, pulls up through the revs clean, didn't hear any spark knock but I backed out at 18 psi. Will probably hook the wga solenoid back up and hold the boost down around 15 til I get the cel issue fixed.

I think some of your problems with the fist tune being rich was because your injectors are 52lbs at 43.5psi. Looks like scaling for 58psi was more inline for you car. Thank for shelgame for the tip.

[duster360]

fwiw, the SRT-4 PT timing is much higher than the WOT timing. timing modifiers move the final timing around alot but the main table values are much higher fot PT than WOT(as it should be)

MBT timing laid on top pf the stock PT timing table. Red areas are where the MBT was higher than PT. White cells are where the MBT timing matches the PT timing
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc91/duster360/MBTonPTtable.jpg

DSP 93 tune WOT timing
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc91/duster360/93tune_WOT_timing.jpg