16v conversion. stick this

[JuXsA]

http://www.juxsa.com/carstuff/16v/16v.htm

Not sure if this info is old or not but this is stuff I compiled several years ago for doing a 16v conversion

[86seeS]

great info! sticky for sure im going to need this

[Bardo]

So wait a minute, that's it? How is that harder and more $$ than a 2.4 swap?

[turbovanman²]

AOL links are dead.



So wait a minute, that's it? How is that harder and more $$ than a 2.4 swap?

It isn't. People like to whine, :p

Whywoody did his conversion on a street outside his house, try that with a 2.4 swap, :lol:

I will add that if you want A/C, that will most likely be the deal breaker unless you can a figure out how to mount the compressor and my main reason for going TIII.

[RattFink]

Wow, I really didn't know it was that easy. Good info.

[bakes]

I would realy like to find the old OZ site. I had it all save on a old PC but the hard drive didn't survive a long time ago.

[Spr-T-23]

hope its as easy as it seems, think ill try that when i rebuild my engine

[Dave]

Whaaaat? It's that simple? :confused:

Game time! lol

[86seeS]

pulled out an old 2.2 today!

[Spr-T-23]

pulled out a 2.5 common out of my drop top, time for fun

[whywoody]

As Simon says, I built mine cheaply with the block in the van. It's still running great, year round through some nasty conditions, and must have close to 100k klm's on it now.

I'm still working at getting the tune 'right' though.

[OmniLuvr]

how did you build a hybrid WITH the block still in the van??? that almost seams like way more work, but i havent pulled a motor out of a van before...

i wish there was more about what to do to the head? at least i didnt find it?

[turbovanman²]

As Simon says, I built mine cheaply with the block in the van. It's still running great, year round through some nasty conditions, and must have close to 100k klm's on it now.

I'm still working at getting the tune 'right' though.

Wow, look who suddenly stopped in, :nod:

I'll never forget your thread, awesome, :hail:


how did you build a hybrid WITH the block still in the van??? that almost seams like way more work, but i havent pulled a motor out of a van before...

i wish there was more about what to do to the head? at least i didnt find it?

I am sure he'll chime in but IIRC, he filed down the plugs.

As for the head, you need to add 2 drain back lines, one oil feed line and plug of some galley's, like the block.

[Juggy]

you can bury the NPT pipe plugs past the deck, just tap a little deeper

idk why everyone is machining/filing them flat. I know a couple guys running like this, and they are not having any issues with the head gasket or sealing....

[turbovanman²]

you can bury the NPT pipe plugs past the deck, just tap a little deeper

idk why everyone is machining/filing them flat. I know a couple guys running like this, and they are not having any issues with the head gasket or sealing....

Maybe some just want to be neat? But yeah, they just need to sit below the deck.

[OmniLuvr]

that makes sense, the more i think about it, the more id like to go hybrid, but it would be pretty much IMPOSSIBLE to pass smog here.

so what else do you have to do with the timing belt tensioner? and what timing belt and gears do you run? i know i should look it up myself, but if this turns into a sticky, it would be nice to have this info in the first few pages of the thread :)

also, if i wanted to be kinda cheap, could i run some stock t3 pistons? and what kind of power could they handle? i have a low mileage (64k) 93 tbi block that i can put them in.

[OmniLuvr]

also, what timing belt and tensioner would i need to run if i decided to run a tall deck? forged 2.2 crank, custom rods, 2.5 hybrid forged pistons, and aluminum flywheel sounds like a lot of fun with a dual cam head... but not cheap :(

[turbovanman²]

that makes sense, the more i think about it, the more id like to go hybrid, but it would be pretty much IMPOSSIBLE to pass smog here.

so what else do you have to do with the timing belt tensioner? and what timing belt and gears do you run? i know i should look it up myself, but if this turns into a sticky, it would be nice to have this info in the first few pages of the thread :)

also, if i wanted to be kinda cheap, could i run some stock t3 pistons? and what kind of power could they handle? i have a low mileage (64k) 93 tbi block that i can put them in.

TIII pistons with a Neon head will have too much compression.

There forged, they'll take a boat load of abuse.

Use the stock tensioner if using a CB.

Cindy has the gears and timing belt listed on her site.


also, what timing belt and tensioner would i need to run if i decided to run a tall deck? forged 2.2 crank, custom rods, 2.5 hybrid forged pistons, and aluminum flywheel sounds like a lot of fun with a dual cam head... but not cheap :(

You'd have to figure that out, I don't think anyone has done a TD hybrid before.

[ShelGame]

TIII pistons with a Neon head will have too much compression.

There forged, they'll take a boat load of abuse.

Use the stock tensioner if using a CB.

Cindy has the gears and timing belt listed on her site.



You'd have to figure that out, I don't think anyone has done a TD hybrid before.

Hmm, I have a couple of tall deck blocks. And, I have a set of 3.5" bore T3 pistons that I bought to go with the TD (TD blocks can take 0.060" over supposedly). How about a 2.6 liter TD hybrid for the van? I'd probably use a 420a head, though. Because it wouldn't be different enough with just a TD...

[bakes]

Hmm, I have a couple of tall deck blocks. And, I have a set of 3.5" bore T3 pistons that I bought to go with the TD (TD blocks can take 0.060" over supposedly). How about a 2.6 liter TD hybrid for the van? I'd probably use a 420a head, though. Because it wouldn't be different enough with just a TD...

I have most of the part to build a frankenstine tall block have the 420a , 88 tall block ,4bolt main caps, a Raw forged crank , forged 2.5 pistons need to get custom rods and holset he341 Im shooting for 2.7l or more!!!!

[ShadowFromHell]

Simon, any idea on how high the comp would be with the T3 pistons? has anyone done the math? is it close enough a guy could possible machine the pistons? I have a set of them laying around too...

[turboshad]

Whywoody did his conversion on a street outside his house, try that with a 2.4 swap, :lol:

Is that a challenge? 6 of one, half dozen of another. I don't see either method that much harder than the other. Both require a bit of fab but could be done easily if you just wanted it running.

[turbovanman²]

Simon, any idea on how high the comp would be with the T3 pistons? has anyone done the math? is it close enough a guy could possible machine the pistons? I have a set of them laying around too...

Yeah, I figured it out, a thicker cometic will help and maybe bigger cams.
If your into low boost, 9:1 might not be so bad.


8 valve pistons, swirl head, 8.0:1
8 valve pistons, G-head, 7.5:1
8 valve pistons, TIII head, 7.0:1
8 valve pistons, Neon head, 8.0:1

TIII pistons, TIII head, 8.0:1
TIII pistons, swirl head, 9.0:1
TIII pistons, G-head, 8.5:1
TIII pistons, Neon head, 9.0:1


Is that a challenge? 6 of one, half dozen of another. I don't see either method that much harder than the other. Both require a bit of fab but could be done easily if you just wanted it running.

Yep, its a challenge, :evil:

I still see the complete 2.4 swap being harder, but that's just me though, :p

[ShadowFromHell]

Do you think If I used a head shim it would drop down to 8.5 to one or so? I really need to figure out how to calculate comp ratio... I think the felpro shims are around .040 right? I think I have everything else figured out to build a 2.2 hybrid on the cheap, with stuff I have laying around. I would just jump to a 2.5, or 2.4 but I have 2 89 T2 motors.

[turbovanman²]

Surf google on how to figure out compression ratio. You need gasket thickness, head and piston volumes.

Felpro shim is .020" and it drops it around .1-.2 IIRC.

[ShadowFromHell]

Hmmm. Even at 9:1, if you could tune it right it would probaly run really hard. The honda guys seem to always be over 9:1 on their turbo cars. Heck, wasnt Odonti's last 3.0 a 10:1 motor? I am planning on building a air/water IC, with a huge heat exhanger so should be able to keep intake temps down. I will also using a 20g, or a holset VGT turbo... My power goals will be 350-400hp.

[turbovanman²]

Well 9:1 is a good guess, you should really mock it up and measure everything to figure out the exact number.

If your doing want your doing, 9:1 should work just fine. Gotta remember, Honda's have a totally different combustion chamber and are way more efficient, and I wouldn't use Brent's motor as an example, lol, he's worse than me at blowing up engines, :p

[bakes]

Surf google on how to figure out compression ratio. You need gasket thickness, head and piston volumes.

Felpro shim is .020" and it drops it around .1-.2 IIRC.

+ deck hieght

[whywoody]

Is that a challenge? 6 of one, half dozen of another. I don't see either method that much harder than the other. Both require a bit of fab but could be done easily if you just wanted it running.
I agree with DJ.
I built mine with the driving force being the challenge of building it without being able to remove the block. I wasn't looking for big power, and wasn't expecting it to run for ever even if it wasn't used hard. It required alot of work, even with my goals in mind. At the time that I built mine, I had no garage access, so removing the engine wasn't possible. The 2.4 swap was just being explored by people, and there wasn't as much proven info about it as there is now.

[WickedShelby88]

I like this swap. Been wanting to try it for a while. Whywoody what did you do for engine control to start with? Honestly I think with a mild tune the hybrid with all its inherent advantages would probably be easier to get to pass smog than an 8V.. Just a thought. What kind fuel mileage you getting with this sucker btw? I like the idea of a tall deck hybrid stroker in a mini for towing. That would be a beast.. Especially with awd. :eyebrows:

[Bardo]

Ok well I think I'm going to scrap my 8v idea and do this. Do you think I can use 8v pistons? I really don't want to spend another $475 on new ones.

[audiomaninc]

Ok well I think I'm going to scrap my 8v idea and do this. Do you think I can use 8v pistons? I really don't want to spend another $475 on new ones.

I sure hope you can! I'll be yanking my car apart this winter and wouldn't mind doing a 16v conversion, but don't want to have the block machined AGAIN AND buy new pistons!

[Bardo]

Yeah, see you and me are both in the same boat. I have a 2.5 .20 over bottom end all put together that I was building a 8v head for. There's a lot of cash in just that block

[rbryant]

How far could you deck the tall deck block? If you deck it enough (granted it would have to be a lot) perhaps T3 or SRT4 pistons could give you a good compression ratio...

That would allow the hybrid to be done without having to go to a custom piston or rod.

Based on my calcuations it would have to be .250" or .3" so I am not sure that the sealing surfaces actually go that low on the block...

Did they just extend the sealing surface higher or is the extended portion below the sealing surface?

-Rich

[Juggy]

FYI

theres an omni in the ontario chapter running high-mid 10s with 28 psi through a 2.2 hybrid with T3 pistons @ 134ish mph....

[turbovanman²]

Ok well I think I'm going to scrap my 8v idea and do this. Do you think I can use 8v pistons? I really don't want to spend another $475 on new ones.

Post 23, :o


How far could you deck the tall deck block? If you deck it enough (granted it would have to be a lot) perhaps T3 or SRT4 pistons could give you a good compression ratio...

That would allow the hybrid to be done without having to go to a custom piston or rod.

Based on my calcuations it would have to be .250" or .3" so I am not sure that the sealing surfaces actually go that low on the block...

Did they just extend the sealing surface higher or is the extended portion below the sealing surface?

-Rich

So what's the point of going with a TD if your simply going to mill it down, :p

I believe they extended the deck height.

[Reaper1]

I've talked about doing some sort of TD hybrid before, but it always comes down to the timing belt. I dunno if anybody has ever found one that will work correctly.

[Bardo]

Cindy at fwp does. She sells the cam gears for it aswell. Link http://www.fwdperformance.com/store/Category.asp?IDCatalog=88&txtCatalog=Hybrid%2016V%20Neon

[Bardo]

Post 23, :o

Simon I saw that but still didn't want to go balls to the wall with this without asking. I have a hx35 that's screaming to push 30 psi thru my little newyorker

[rbryant]

Post 23, :o
So what's the point of going with a TD if your simply going to mill it down, :p
.

It is still taller than the normal block so it could have some nice benefits... Perhaps there is also a rod out there that would be somewhere in between the normal 2.2 rod and the tall deck rod that could work cheaply with the right amount of milling.

What is the point of going with a 2.2/2.5 hybrid when the 2.4 block is stronger, less leaky, has oil squirters, etc and already works with the head? :)

There are lots of different things that can be done and it is fun to discuss them and in some cases even try them...

-Rich

[turbovanman²]

Cindy at fwp does. She sells the cam gears for it aswell. Link http://www.fwdperformance.com/store/Category.asp?IDCatalog=88&txtCatalog=Hybrid%2016V%20Neon

Not the timing belt for a TD.


Simon I saw that but still didn't want to go balls to the wall with this without asking. I have a hx35 that's screaming to push 30 psi thru my little newyorker

That doesn't change the compression ratio, the 2.5 pistons with a Neon head are a great combo.


It is still taller than the normal block so it could have some nice benefits... Perhaps there is also a rod out there that would be somewhere in between the normal 2.2 rod and the tall deck rod that could work cheaply with the right amount of milling.

What is the point of going with a 2.2/2.5 hybrid when the 2.4 block is stronger, less leaky, has oil squirters, etc and already works with the head? :)

There are lots of different things that can be done and it is fun to discuss them and in some cases even try them...

-Rich

I have no problems with discussing, bringing up a 2.4 block is silly. The whole point of a TD is the tall part, milling it down is pointless, :p My 2 cents.

There should be a few threads floating around about rod combo's, I don't think we found anything, I was looking for awhile too. I seem to remember we had a good thread with Shelgame as he was planning to run one.

[rbryant]

Not the timing belt for a TD.
I have no problems with discussing, bringing up a 2.4 block is silly.


The 2.4 is also a taller deck than the 2.2/common block....

Ok well it is only .34mm taller but hey it is taller:

tall = 249.80mm
2.4 = 238.14mm
2.2/common = 237.80mm
2.0 = 212.00mm

Ok that isn't what you meant... ;)



The whole point of a TD is the tall part, milling it down is pointless, :p My 2 cents.


Not really... The tall deck could also be useful because the compression ratio is too high with the common block, 2.2 crank, and T3 pistons. If you can fix that with a milled tall deck then it isn't pointless.

The normal discussion about the tall deck is to run longer rods (or perhaps use 2.2 pistons with a 2.5 crank) but that doesn't mean that it is the only possible thing that it might be good for. After all, this thread was discussing hybrid common block options before it went into the tall deck discussion.

Custom length aftermarket rods are much more expensive than anything that could be done with milling the block, making custom pistons, etc.

Sure it is a cool way to make 3-5% more power but it sure is an expensive way to do it... I do think it is a cool project but people should understand that it is more of a cool project for minimal gains than something that is practical for increasing power.

-Rich

[Reaper1]

Running the TD with custom rods/pistons can give a better/optimal rod ratio and you can make a good revver out of it with a 16V head. Sure, the 2.2 and 2.4 already rev well with a 16V head (and in some cases even the 8V, but that's not the point here), but the point is how much better could you make it? Given appropriate cam choice and tuning with the better rod ratio (along with all the other stuff to support it of course), I'd be willing to bet there's a good bit of power to be had, not only just by revving higher, but also under the curve due to increased efficiency everywhere else.

[OmniLuvr]

^thats the point right there, explore the high revving capability's of a 16v head with a better rod ratio, and a block that most of our stock parts from 80's dodges will bolt to (motor mounts, starter, trannys, most accessorys), and i think it fits a little better then the 2.4 in an l-body (even though not much "fits" in an omni)?

ive wanted to do a 2.2 TD 8v for a while, but after buying custom rods and forged 2.5 pistons, i would just rather buy 2.5 16v forged units, fab up a dohc head, and be able to produce way more upper rpm power. not only a better rod ratio, but also the weight savings of a shorter 2.5 piston compaired to a 2.2.

[rbryant]

^thats the point right there, explore the high revving capability's of a 16v head with a better rod ratio, and a block that most of our stock parts from 80's dodges will bolt to (motor mounts, starter, trannys, most accessorys), and i think it fits a little better then the 2.4 in an l-body (even though not much "fits" in an omni)?

ive wanted to do a 2.2 TD 8v for a while, but after buying custom rods and forged 2.5 pistons, i would just rather buy 2.5 16v forged units, fab up a dohc head, and be able to produce way more upper rpm power. not only a better rod ratio, but also the weight savings of a shorter 2.5 piston compaired to a 2.2.

Yes but the 2.2/2.5 block is inferior to the 2.4 block to start with... The different bellhousing is a good point but it is easier to change than it is to make a hybrid engine with external oiling.

The biggest flaw with the 2.4l engine is the oil pump but from what I have been told that is more of an issue with tiny oil passages going to the filter than it is the pump its self. I ported out my oil passages in an attempt to fix that issue. In reality if you put that up against the 2.2/2.5l intermediate shaft issues with its oil pump I think we have to call it a wash.

If you really want the best of everything then we should be talking about a custom 2.2l crank for the 2.4l block. Then you can start to talk about what the rod length and ratio should be. It can be quite a bit better than the 2.2 because there is a slightly taller deck and we can also go with a shorter skirt piston with a higher wrist pin to get some more rod length. :)

How far do we really want to take things and how realistic are we going to be? The custom crank is the next level after custom rods and it makes the 2.4l engine even better than what you can do with the tall deck block. :)

Anyway... I have gone to far with mentioning this as you said so we should return to the hybrid block discussion.

I would suggest modifying the head so that the water outlet is on the driver side freeze plug. Then use a custom headgasket that properly directs the cooling based on that modification (same cooling paths as a lotus head). That way it is possible to get much more even cooling with a hybrid.

There is a discussion on it in my build log with pictures of the headgasket mods (although I did it for a 2.4).

-Rich

[rbryant]

Running the TD with custom rods/pistons can give a better/optimal rod ratio and you can make a good revver out of it with a 16V head. Sure, the 2.2 and 2.4 already rev well with a 16V head (and in some cases even the 8V, but that's not the point here), but the point is how much better could you make it? Given appropriate cam choice and tuning with the better rod ratio (along with all the other stuff to support it of course), I'd be willing to bet there's a good bit of power to be had, not only just by revving higher, but also under the curve due to increased efficiency everywhere else.

I will wait and see but I am not aware of any engine that has ever shown a change of more than 2-3% of peak power from rod ratio and at that level of change it could simply be that longer rod engines tend to have lighter pistons (because the piston pin is pushed upward and it leads to a lighter skirt)...


I did see an article once that said that if you get below 1.50 rod ratio that your engine will start to have a lot of blowby and windage increases though so who knows...

It should be a fun way for some people to spend money and I agree it is interesting so I will be reading about how it goes.


-Rich

[OmniLuvr]

personally, id like to run a dohc 2.0 or even 8v, but i heard there isnt as much tuning support for it? and i dont think they make a de-stroker kit for the 2.4?

i also thought the piston skirts on the 2.4 pistons were short already?

i even thought of a sohc 2.2 hybrid, only one cam and timing gear, maybe cheaper timing belt and tensioner setup, more room for turbo, header, and intake manifold.

[rbryant]

personally, id like to run a dohc 2.0 or even 8v, but i heard there isnt as much tuning support for it? and i dont think they make a de-stroker kit for the 2.4?



It is called a 2.0l engine...




i also thought the piston skirts on the 2.4 pistons were short already?



They are pretty short already but the dome could also add some weight.

The point is more that even in engines that showed minimal gains from longer rods in back to back testing the only way they could do back to back testing in the same engine would be to swap out the rod/piston combination. If you do that then the pistons are generally heavier (because they have to be taller) which also gives an advantage to the long rod engine. If the short rod engine had the same pistons as the longer rod version in a shorter deck then it would make more power too...

I have also seen data that shows that the short rod engine should make more torque than the long rod engine due to faster piston speed at the beginning of the stroke.

There are a lot of factors that complicate testing and nothing has really shown that the long rod engine makes more power. Even the tests that appear to show it have only a 2-3% gain... Piston speeds are within 2%, sidewall loading is within 2%, etc. Perhaps the dwell helps get the valve to open a bit faster but it hasn't shown much.

I am amused about how people are willing to run an inefficient turbo and say "well the real world shows that it works." But then others dwell on getting 2% more power from a long rod engine.... On this one the real world shows that the long rods really don't do much.

-Rich

[Reaper1]

The thing is that in order to get the most out of a long rod engine you have to change a LOT of other stuff! It's a system that is supposed to work together. The cams are the biggest change. Spark advance will be different. Fuel and tuning will be different. It's not just the rods and the pistons that make the system work.

[OmniLuvr]

well, its not just if it will make more power, its where it makes it, and in my omni, i dont want to make more torque, im lookin for a "larger" rpm range and more top hp. also, if the piston is shorter, it will have less resistance. and why do small block chevys build 6" rod engines? ive built three of them, and they are high rpm screamers. plus, i think small block chevy rods are the same length as ours, so with a TD and 2.5 pistons, our rods are somewhere in the 6.1 range i think. plus, i think there may be some benifit from the slower piston speed and longer stall at tdc, it will help with timing A LOT, something we have problems with anyways.

again, id REALLY like a 2.0, BUT, ive "heard" that there isnt alot of TUNING SUPPORT for the 2.0, and i am far from a tuner right now. can you even put a 2.0 crank in a 2.4 block? then you could have a long rod 2.0 ;)

plus, with a hybrid, as stated earlier, all mounts and acc still bolt up.

i think the 2.4 motors go better in heavier cars (when i do my 2.4 it will be in the shelby lancer), so a dohc 2.0 would be the best for my l-body, but it seams like a lot more fab work than im willing to deal with right "now". if we had custom motor mounts already made up (like hondas) for the 2.0/2.4 swaps, and are tranny were direct bolt up, then no problem. id rather just have to do a small amount of machine work for now.

[Austrian Dodge]

the 2.0 crank doesn't drop in the 2.4, the main and rod journal sizes are smaller on the 2.0

here's some block information that might also help a bit

2.0L DOHC

Power @ rpm -- 140 bhp (104 kW) @ 6000
Torque @ rpm -- 130 lb-ft (178 N-m) @ 4800
Bore -- 3.44 in (87.5 mm)
Stroke -- 3.27 in (83 mm)
Bore-to-stroke ratio -- 1.05:1
Block height -- 8.35 (212.0)
Rod length -- 5.47 (139.0)
Connecting rod L/R -- 3.35:1
Compression ratio -- 9.6:1
Displacement -- 121.8 cubic inches (1996 cc)

2.4L DOHC

Power @ rpm -- 150 bhp (112 kW) @ 5400
Torque @ rpm -- 167 lb-ft (229 N-m) @ 4000
Bore -- 3.44 (87.5 mm)
Stroke -- 3.98 (101 mm)
Bore-to-stroke ratio --0.87:1
Block height -- 9.36 (237.8 mm)
Rod length -- 5.94 (151.0 mm)
Connecting rod L/R – 2.99:1
Compression ratio -- 9.4:1
Displacement -- 148.23 cubic inches (2429 cc)

2.4 L DOHC Turbo

Power @ rpm -- 215 bhp @ 5100
Torque @ rpm -- 245 lb-ft @ 4000
Bore -- 3.44 (87.5 mm)
Stroke -- 3.98 (101 mm)
Bore-to-stroke ratio --0.87:1
Block height -- 9.36 in (238.14 mm)
Rod length -- 5.94 in (151.0 mm)
Connecting rod L/R – 2.99:1
Compression ratio – 8.1:1
Displacement -- 148.23 cubic inches (2429 cc)

there may not be a lot of support for the 2.0, but you could build a custom length rod out of it.
pistons and rods have to be custom made anyways, wether you just want tough parts or a long rod engine.
there's ARP hardware available and also stronger aftermarket bearings.
so the only limitation really is oil pump choice, but if you modify the stock pump + passages i'm sure it'll suite your needs.

a fully build 2.0 in a light car, screeming for RPM's....like that idea

[Stratman]

I am making the decision now of making my 2.2 a hybrid. I may keep the 8v Vinolias and do have the option to have valve reliefs cut in them (if I need to). Though I don't want to loose that much CR.
One concern, I have heard someone mention having an issue with head gasket sealing around the cross drill holes between the bores in the block. After mocking the HG on the block it does look iffy. Has anyone else had the same issue?

[Reaper1]

Our stock CB rod length is 5.9"

I have a set of Lunati H-beam rods that are 6" for a SBC with the 2" big end. I have a crank to go with them that I had stroked to 3.75" and a set of JE pistons to work with the whole deal. Rod ratio is 1.6 (stock 2.2 is 1.63). Using the SBC rods isn't bad, but keep in mind that you have to have some modifications done to the rods/crank to get them to work in a 4-cylinder application. Namely the big ends of the rods are ment to ride against one another on one side, so there is no chamfer. Either you have to have the crank built to provide the support on that side, or have the rods chamfered (and the crank). IIRC the bearings are different widths as well, but that isn't a big deal. Making sure the big end of the rod is propperly located and supported is the #1 priority.