The Chargers quest for 9's

[Shadow]

Wasn't going to start this for a couple weeks yet, but since it's already been brought up in another thread, and in an effort to keep that thread clear of My own goal oriented stuff.......here goes nothing!

When I set out to put the Charger into the 10's several years ago, it didn't seem that daunting of a task. Even though I was purposely limiting myself by laying down some ground rules and believing it could be done on the stock turbo roller cam and ported stock turbo exhaust mani in a street legal full bodied S/C.

When I finally acheived that goal a couple years ago, it was a huge relief. Not so much because I was able to do it without compromising my own guidlines, but because of the built up anxiety in those around me, brought on by the very limitations that those guidlines demanded.

So, no surprise that I wanted to just take it easy for a couple years and see what may, or may not be next. (That and I had a ton of other family stuff and personal matters that took a lot of my time)

Fast forward to a couple weeks ago. I'm working in the shop, staring at the Charger thinking how easily it has done what it's done. (don't tell my bro I said this or he'd kill me!) I'm not weighing the time here, I'm talking strictly of the task and what needed doing to acheive it.

The first couple years we were simply handcuffed by the larger inj's and being rich down low and not having the means to adjust fast enough (this proved to be very frustrating for several members of my "Team" because they prob thought, after we sailed into the mid 11's on an even simpler build, that the same thing was going to happen here. Rob says 10's are the goal, should be no problem! lol)

It's funny looking back, that the Charger has done so well, and gotten Better the faster we've gone has ment everything to me, but to Brent it has only ment that I haven't driven it hard enough.....yet!

Now, that may be true, but either way, I'm sitting in my shop, staring at a car that I NEVER would have even concidered thinking about 9's with, and I'm thinking about it! :D

So, before I divulge what my limitations are going to be this time, (I'm sure most of you can guess them) I want to here from the peanut gallery. One person has already made a list of what they think needs doing. (which was hilarious considering the timing of all this!)

Is it possible, and if so, what do You think I'm going to have to do (and possibly "give up") to get there?:eyebrows:

[Juggy]

well if you want the easier answer, your going to need another 8 more valves lol

but yeah..
equal length tubular header....or the TU cast manny for the stockish look...

your still running the internal gate right? external for sure!! help dump some of that exhaust. id think a nice mandrel 3" to 4" downpipe like the one ATP has would be nice too

upgrade your head to big valve status...

honestly it shouldnt take much. youve got the mph to get ya down deep into the 10s....

[Kreel]

Tube header, 10 pt cage, and convert to AWD :eyebrows:

/thread :p

[Warren Stramer]

Proper tubular header,better head,intake and cam, bigger turbo, must weigh no more than 2300lbs.
The hardest part might be the weight loss, and still be legal for street.

[forcedfedmopar]

I dont know why your making more work for yourself.......just turn the boost up!:lol:

[rx2mazda]

subscribed.

[Shadow]

well if you want the easier answer, your going to need another 8 more valves lol

Not an option! :D


convert to AWD :eyebrows:
/thread :p

Not an option. :D



The hardest part might be the weight loss, and still be legal for street.

Ah Ha! Recognition of one of my first limitations, the car must remain street legal/street drivable! :clap:


I dont know why your making more work for yourself.......just turn the boost up!:lol:

Well, that's been the plan, but I haven't got the chance....yet. I'm thinking IF I can make the appropriate changes and get deep enough into the tens, on relatively low boost (below 35psi) then I can crank it up and hope it's enough! :eyebrows:

[turbovanman²]

My 2 cents, FWIW-

Loose a bit of weight
Better head
Equal length TS header
Big turbo with a TS turbine housing.
Keep that cam for now to see how it works, then change later.

[BadAssPerformance]

Proper tubular header,better head,intake and cam, bigger turbo, must weigh no more than 2300lbs.
The hardest part might be the weight loss, and still be legal for street.

Word :nod:

[Shadow]

Not an option! :D



Not an option. :D



Ah Ha! Recognition of one of my first limitations, the car must remain street legal/street drivable! :clap:



Well, that's been the plan, but I haven't got the chance....yet. I'm thinking IF I can make the appropriate changes and get deep enough into the tens, on relatively low boost (below 35psi) then I can crank it up and hope it's enough! :eyebrows:

Actually thought about this a bit and "not an option" turns out to be the same as "limitation"! lol

This is also what I found so funny (good way) about the Pope's comment on the other thread. He (Rob) Assumed I would keep the car streetable, that I would stay 8v, stay MTX, not run No2 ect. and he was right!

For a matter of fact, everything he listed were things that I Would and Could consider doing. Go figure!

[Shadow]

bigger turbo


My 2 cents, FWIW
Big turbo with a TS turbine housing.

This Could turn out to be an interesting part of the equation. I believe the HE351 can get the job done, as I'm believing it can be done on 600WHP and I'm sure that turbo can support that kind of power. (not to say there aren't other turbo's out there more capable)

Bigger Q is Can the mtr take it? AND will it happen on the ported exhaust mani? :p (I know that would piss some ppl off to see me do that, don't know why though? :evil:)

I'll tackle the 2nd of those 2 Q's right now. While I'm Not saying the stock mani can't do it (for a matter of fact, I'm already sure it can) I'm Not holding that as a limit to my build/quest like I did to run 10's.

A proper header at this point could be worth 30-40WHP and I'm going to need
big gains from things like that If this is going to work!

Another big plus from a header is that it would allow me to make more power Through the HE351! :thumb:

[turbovanman²]

This Could turn out to be an interesting part of the equation. I believe the HE351 can get the job done, as I'm believing it can be done on 600WHP and I'm sure that turbo can support that kind of power. (not to say there aren't other turbo's out there more capable)

Bigger Q is Can the mtr take it? AND will it happen on the ported exhaust mani? :p (I know that would piss some ppl off to see me do that, don't know why though? :evil:)

I'll tackle the 2nd of those 2 Q's right now. While I'm Not saying the stock mani can't do it (for a matter of fact, I'm already sure it can) I'm Not holding that as a limit to my build/quest like I did to run 10's.

A proper header at this point could be worth 30-40WHP and I'm going to need
big gains from things like that If this is going to work!

Another big plus from a header is that it would allow me to make more power Through the HE351! :thumb:

Would be cool to see the motor explode! :bolt:

I don't think anyone on here would hate to see the ex manifold do it, but the real question I think is, how much is it holding you back? :p

Would be cool for sure if the Holset got you into the 9's, I don't think it can, :eyebrows:

[BoostedDrummer]

rub the engine with cheetah blood :D

[Shadow]

Would be cool to see the motor explode! :bolt:

I don't think anyone on here would hate to see the ex manifold do it, but the real question I think is, how much is it holding you back? :p

Would be cool for sure if the Holset got you into the 9's, I don't think it can, :eyebrows:

Agreed, except for the exploding part! :D True, the mtr owes me nothing x 10, but I'd love to see it go 550+WHP before it goes! :clap:

The exhaust mani is at an optimal 1:1 ratio right now @ 35psi (or pretty darn close) IF I increase efficience in front of it, I would think that # would go up. I could clip the wheel (it's a close config wheel, not open like a staged wheel) and get some more efficiency out of it, we'll have to see.

Funny part of this is everyone thought I was more like 2.5:1 ratio before I checked it. Now if I would have been that high, everyone would be looking to a header to bring me closer to 1:1, where I am now! lol

I'd love to do a back to back header comparo as well, so there's that.

Wether or not the Holset can do it, prob has everything to do with the weight I need to get rid of and maybe the addition of the header. (amoungst other things)

Warren hit the nail on the head, I need to loose 200lbs and that's including the fact that I'm going to have to add weight by finishing my cage.

Bonus is, I haven't done anything to drop weight other than a couple simple things like no carpet underlay. So I'm thinking 200lb and streetable is doable.

Non-bonus, I never thought of using this car for 9's because of how it was originally put together. 3 heavy coats of undercoating under the whole floor + sound deadening on the inside of all the floor pans.

Prob 20-30lbs I won't be able to recover cause I'm not about to scrape it all off! :(

[turbovanman²]

Maybe a CF hatch and hood? Tubular K member?

Again, interesting on the turbine. So, is 1:1 ideal or do we want a different number? Where are you testing it? I wouldn't mine testing mine some day, I have a fitting already in the turbine housing.

[shelbymonster]

you can make it happen for sure , btw those he351 hold a lot of hp on turbo diesel close to 600 hp , the dads he341 is almost at 450 whp and still at 30 psi . great job so far and man that underhood still looking stock !

[butchsuppe]

Excuse my stupidity but was does this 1:1 ratio in the ex. mani refer too ? Does it mean something like no restriction what so ever ?

[GLHNSLHT2]

1lb of exhaust back pressure for 1lb of boost in the intake IIRC

[turboshad]

Giver Rob. I'm curious to see where these HE351s will go. I think we are at pretty similar power levels right now with them and I would like to see how far they can be pushed. I know we will both be trying next year. :nod: This year I tried addding a few more pounders and I didn't see any results. This could be the turbo running out of breath or it could be other things. I think the head may be lifting a tad since I was blowing coolant near the end with the high RPM and 24-25psi. That could definately cause it not to respond so I will be looking into that.

I have "heard" that they will support 65lbs like you mentioned but I couldn't give you a good source to back that up. Most maps are scetchy at best and I have yet to see a definative HE351 map. I think it's time to see what these things are really made of. :clap: I sure hope it's not out of breath at 500whp since a new snail isn't in the buget for this year.

[bakes]

The he351 i have on my bench was pushed to 55psi daily for a year and never give any trouble was a only swapped out for compound twins and 100psi

I would love to see how far you could push the he351!!!!!!!!!!!!

Start you weight reduction with rotating mass (hubs,wheels,brakes....)

[Shadow]

Maybe a CF hatch and hood? Tubular K member?

Again, interesting on the turbine. So, is 1:1 ideal or do we want a different number? Where are you testing it? I wouldn't mine testing mine some day, I have a fitting already in the turbine housing.

It has been said that 1:1 (no greater) is ideal. Lately though, ppl are starting to figure out more efficiency and they are below 1:1.

A tubular header would put me below 1:1 and again (like the F4 cam) I would make more power on less boost! (which can get kind of addictive if your not carefull! lol)



you can make it happen for sure , btw those he351 hold a lot of hp on turbo diesel close to 600 hp , the dads he341 is almost at 450 whp and still at 30 psi . great job so far and man that underhood still looking stock !

Thanks for the props, gonna do what I can!


Giver Rob. I'm curious to see where these HE351s will go. I think we are at pretty similar power levels right now with them and I would like to see how far they can be pushed. I know we will both be trying next year. :nod: This year I tried addding a few more pounders and I didn't see any results. This could be the turbo running out of breath or it could be other things. I think the head may be lifting a tad since I was blowing coolant near the end with the high RPM and 24-25psi. That could definately cause it not to respond so I will be looking into that.

I have "heard" that they will support 65lbs like you mentioned but I couldn't give you a good source to back that up. Most maps are scetchy at best and I have yet to see a definative HE351 map. I think it's time to see what these things are really made of. :clap: I sure hope it's not out of breath at 500whp since a new snail isn't in the buget for this year.

I gaurantee this turbo is not out of breath at 500WHP. I could do 500WHP with the HE341! Having said that, it's interesting that No one I'm aware of has stuck with one long enough to Really see how much power it will make?

I remember, years ago, talking to Glenn about what different turbos where capable of on the deisels they came off of. It always seemed to be about 1/2 of what you could get out of the same turbo on a gas 4 banger.

Now back then, diesel trucks were running way bigger turbos for big power with huge A/R's because ppl thought that's what was needed.

It was almost hilarious to see the turn around on the 351 when some of the diesel crowd decided to see just how far they could go! After that, it wasn't just us 4 bangers that were trying to buy them up! :nod:

If this turbo can make 600WHP and 1040TQ on a diesel at 58-60psi boost AND live! That's good for me. I'm sure it will go 600WHP, but will everything else hang in there?


1lb of exhaust back pressure for 1lb of boost in the intake IIRC

Exactly, intake mani preasure and exhaust mani preasure =. Would be real interesting to see how much it would drop with a header!


The he351 i have on my bench was pushed to 55psi daily for a year and never give any trouble was a only swapped out for compound twins and 100psi

I would love to see how far you could push the he351!!!!!!!!!!!!

Start you weight reduction with rotating mass (hubs,wheels,brakes....)

Because of my goals, I think that's exactly what I'm going to have to do.

I'm basically going to go after anything that unbolts from the main chassis. That way, the car remains uncut and streetable without having to think about it too much.

Bonus for me is I haven't even run light weight rear tires or rims yet. I gaurantee there's 40lbs to be had! (although I was hoping this would be above and beyong the 200lb I was talking about)

Big Q for me is going to be "How much do I love PS"? I could ditch the PS, no more leak, and save a nice chunk of weight + a little added HP. (not sure if I'm ready to lose it though)

Same with brakes, I've got the big Daytona 4WD brake booster in there. I could prob save some good weight going manual brakes with al calipers.

[butchsuppe]

That would be interesting what a header would do.

[turbovanman²]

Gotcha. Where are you teeing in to the exhaust? At the turbine or at the mounting flange? or does it not really matter?

[1984rampage]

Big Q for me is going to be "How much do I love PS"? I could ditch the PS, no more leak, and save a nice chunk of weight + a little added HP. (not sure if I'm ready to lose it though)


I honestly prefer my charger without the power steering. In my opinion it makes the car less twitchy and easier to control at higher speeds. Only pain is parking but even that isn't hard.

Talking to Aaron Miller he had the same feelings. Especially with a very high horsepower car he felt that the power steering made the car much too twitchy and over-responsive

[Shadow]

Gotcha. Where are you teeing in to the exhaust? At the turbine or at the mounting flange? or does it not really matter?

The concensus seems to be around the turbo mounting flange area, but the whole exhaust mani is preasurized, so not sure how much difference your going to see.

I think anywhere close to either side of the mounting flanges should give you an accurate reading. I'm on the exhaust mani side of the flange. As long as you don't go off the far side of the #1 runner. ;)

[Shadow]

I honestly prefer my charger without the power steering. In my opinion it makes the car less twitchy and easier to control at higher speeds. Only pain is parking but even that isn't hard.

Talking to Aaron Miller he had the same feelings. Especially with a very high horsepower car he felt that the power steering made the car much too twitchy and over-responsive

Interesting. I guess the car has always seemed more streetable with the PS.
Although I have driven manual steering cars without issue.

Considering what I'm attempting to do, I would think It would be wise to loose the PS and at least give the manual rack a try.

After all, that 1 change could equate to 5-7% of my weight loss + 10% of my hp gain.

[Juggy]

Bonus for me is I haven't even run light weight rear tires or rims yet. I gaurantee there's 40lbs to be had! (although I was hoping this would be above and beyong the 200lb I was talking about)

I lost like 90 pounds of rotating mass, just from rim swap. almost 30 pounds off each rear rim (going to bogart drag rim from SRT-4 17" rear...lol) and another 15-17 pounds off each rim up front (from momo 15" with bagged slick, to 13" bogart unbagged)

my car is full interior, street legal (well no heater box...which means no defrost, so ya thats the ONLY thing). and AFTER get get my 6(8) point cage installed im estimating the car will weigh 2500 (no driver).

one of those early shelby aluminum rear re bars would also help shed some weight. no one seemed to have mention weight savings there....

[8valves]

Interesting. I guess the car has always seemed more streetable with the PS.
Although I have driven manual steering cars without issue.

Considering what I'm attempting to do, I would think It would be wise to loose the PS and at least give the manual rack a try.

After all, that 1 change could equate to 5-7% of my weight loss + 10% of my hp gain.

I liked my car best with a power rack, but no power assist. It was by far the easiest way to drive it straight and true under big power.

Plus if you ditch the pump it gives you room to make a much cleaner/better header and air intake and charge plumbing if you so desired.

So you actually measured your BP in the manifold at an equal 35 psi to the intake charge? I must've missed that. As you're aware of that is mostly due to your turbine housing and wheel choice.

For those not familiar with checking your engine combo's PR (pressure ratio, intake-exhaust) it is the key to making big power with a turbo engine. And it is a system, not individual parts. Just because Rob's car is at a 1:1 on a ported stock manifold, your car on a S60 turbo at 30 psi is not. :p

[Shadow]

my car is full interior, street legal (well no heater box...which means no defrost, so ya thats the ONLY thing). and AFTER get get my 6(8) point cage installed im estimating the car will weigh 2500 (no driver).

Damn, I don't get how some of you are so heavy? That can't be race weight, must be street weight before you put the lighter tire/rim combo on?

Cause my race weight with driver is slightly lighter than that right now and I still have the heater box!


one of those early shelby aluminum rear re bars would also help shed some weight. no one seemed to have mention weight savings there....

Already got one.


I liked my car best with a power rack, but no power assist. It was by far the easiest way to drive it straight and true under big power.

Plus if you ditch the pump it gives you room to make a much cleaner/better header and air intake and charge plumbing if you so desired.

So you actually measured your BP in the manifold at an equal 35 psi to the intake charge? I must've missed that. As you're aware of that is mostly due to your turbine housing and wheel choice.

For those not familiar with checking your engine combo's PR (pressure ratio, intake-exhaust) it is the key to making big power with a turbo engine. And it is a system, not individual parts. Just because Rob's car is at a 1:1 on a ported stock manifold, your car on a S60 turbo at 30 psi is not. :p

Well, close enough to 1:1 that for ease of conversation I'm calling it that. It was actually 1 1/16 or so to 1. lol

So your saying leave the power rack, but don't run the pump ect?

Did you drive one with an actual manual rack for comparo that brought you to this conclusion?

[Shadow]

your still running the internal gate right? external for sure!! help dump some of that exhaust. id think a nice mandrel 3" to 4" downpipe like the one ATP has would be nice too

I remember ppl telling me the external gate was a must when I was making 450whp and talking about 500WHP.

Honestly, the only advantage is if it's dumped to atmosphere and even then, it's only advantageous IF your current DP Can't handle the extra flow.

If I had a 3" right off my turbo, I'd agree that external dumping to atmosphere Could help me.

Honestly though, I don't have that problem. :D

[ShadowBrad]

I liked my car best with a power rack, but no power assist. It was by far the easiest way to drive it straight and true under big power.

Plus if you ditch the pump it gives you room to make a much cleaner/better header and air intake and charge plumbing if you so desired.

In a light car, L Body, I would have to agree with this. While it is slightly harder to turn than an actual manual rack, it's not very noticeable in an L Body. And by retaining the power rack w/o the pump you get to keep the same steering ratio as I'm pretty sure the manual racks turn slower so they're easier to steer.


So you actually measured your BP in the manifold at an equal 35 psi to the intake charge? I must've missed that. As you're aware of that is mostly due to your turbine housing and wheel choice.

For those not familiar with checking your engine combo's PR (pressure ratio, intake-exhaust) it is the key to making big power with a turbo engine. And it is a system, not individual parts. Just because Rob's car is at a 1:1 on a ported stock manifold, your car on a S60 turbo at 30 psi is not. :p

This was a question that I was going to ask and you've pretty much answered it. If measuring the pressure in your ex. manifold at the turbo flange, wouldn't that mainly be due to the restriction of the turbine side of the turbo and not the manifold itself. If your manifold was set up for 4 EGT probes, couldn't you take a pressure reading at each of those and one at the turbo flange, then compare all 5 readings to see if any of the exhaust manifold runners were holding back more pressure than the turbine itself? Or would the fact that air pressure pushes equally in all directions in a contained area cause all the readings to be the same? Or could the runner readings possibly be higher due to the fact that there is constantly new air coming into the ex manifold from the head and exiting through the turbine?

-brad

[thedon809]

Ive driven my turbo z with a power rack minus the pump for months. Wasnt bad at all.

[ShadowBrad]

Ive driven my turbo z with a power rack minus the pump for months. Wasnt bad at all.

I would agree with you on that. My Hybrid Shadow had a power rack w/o the pump and it wasn't too bad to drive. My old Omni was definitely much easier though.

-brad

[Shadow]

If measuring the pressure in your ex. manifold at the turbo flange, wouldn't that mainly be due to the restriction of the turbine side of the turbo and not the manifold itself.
-brad

This is what I've been trying to tell ppl for years! I took a good look at the factory piece, specially after doing some nice porting and Knew it would be efficient to AT LEAST 500WHP without issue.

5 + years ago ppl thought that was some kind of joke. So who's laughing now? :D

Your correct, to a point. The turbine wheel/housing combo is the Major restriction. As long as the manifold before it has appropriate cross section to flow X, it's not a problem.

After that there are 3 basic ways to decrease the pr diff in the exhaust mani. Larger A/R housing, Larger turbine wheel, decrease the pr diff between the mani and the aft flowing exhaust. (of course there are other ways that I'm not going to go into, like wheel clipping ect, because ppl don't like talking about that stuff!)

The first two choises will slow down spool and take away some "dynamic" from your "Charger". The 3rd choise gives you faster spool and increases the dynamic. Guess which one I have always concentrated on? ;)

Of course, none of this matters if the rest of your system isn't already well thought out!

[8valves]

Damn, I don't get how some of you are so heavy? That can't be race weight, must be street weight before you put the lighter tire/rim combo on?

Cause my race weight with driver is slightly lighter than that right now and I still have the heater box!



Already got one.



Well, close enough to 1:1 that for ease of conversation I'm calling it that. It was actually 1 1/16 or so to 1. lol

So your saying leave the power rack, but don't run the pump ect?

Did you drive one with an actual manual rack for comparo that brought you to this conclusion?

My '86 was 2360, full wet, no driver, with 17's. With a bar in it. With the heater box.

Yes, leave the rack power but lose the pump and lines.

Yes, although not in a TM. A couple of friends turbo honda hatches had manual racks and they sucked to try and keep straight. The car was on the cusp of wheelspin so much that a touch of the wheel the wrong way, or a little bumpsteer and the whole car got unsettled and tried to change lanes if you weren't quick on the wheel. If you were quick on the wheel, you ruined the run because you were fighting the wheel so hard. It was a nightmare.


I remember ppl telling me the external gate was a must when I was making 450whp and talking about 500WHP.

Honestly, the only advantage is if it's dumped to atmosphere and even then, it's only advantageous IF your current DP Can't handle the extra flow.

If I had a 3" right off my turbo, I'd agree that external dumping to atmosphere Could help me.

Honestly though, I don't have that problem. :D

The advantage is control. When you have an external PROPERLY placed (ie, equal flow to turbine wheel and wastegate, or even prioritized to the wastegate) I can control boost to within .1-.2 psi of the boost target on an AEM or Motec.

An internal could too, if it were large enough and placed well, but none of them are. Therefor you get the..."how much boost was that?" "Oh, about 33-35 psi". Instead of, "33.4 for most of the run."

And if you place the wastegate right, and size your plumbing correctly, it opens up the door to more creative turbo sizing options than the "one size fits all" recommendations.

For our cars though, nobody (well, maybe a handful?) out there are dialing their chassis in to handle an extra .5 psi on the line and 1.5 psi through first gear and 2.2 psi more in second gear to compensate for a sticky track that day.

See what I mean?


This is what I've been trying to tell ppl for years! I took a good look at the factory piece, specially after doing some nice porting and Knew it would be efficient to AT LEAST 500WHP without issue.

5 + years ago ppl thought that was some kind of joke. So who's laughing now? :D

Your correct, to a point. The turbine wheel/housing combo is the Major restriction. As long as the manifold before it has appropriate cross section to flow X, it's not a problem.

After that there are 3 basic ways to decrease the pr diff in the exhaust mani. Larger A/R housing, Larger turbine wheel, decrease the pr diff between the mani and the aft flowing exhaust. (of course there are other ways that I'm not going to go into, like wheel clipping ect, because ppl don't like talking about that stuff!)

The first two choises will slow down spool and take away some "dynamic" from your "Charger". The 3rd choise gives you faster spool and increases the dynamic. Guess which one I have always concentrated on? ;)

Of course, none of this matters if the rest of your system isn't already well thought out!

That's an important part of that statement there. :)

And without trying to get into the header debate one more time. Yes, the stock piece will physically flow the quantity of air necessary for 500 whp, as shown. So will a log. So will large enough, mitre cut plumbers pipe stick welded together. :p

As you've stated, the header will give you the quality flow to drop your boost down and make the same power. Or go back to the same boost and make more. That sounds like more fun. :nod:

What's your air inlet plumbing like for the turbo?

[boost geek]

[QUOTE=8valves;740213]
Yes, leave the rack power but lose the pump and lines.
[QUOTE]

When you say drop the lines, you still have the 2 looped together or left open/plugged? I run a power rack with the lines looped.
My car is 2460 with 1/2 tank of fuel and everything in it.

[Shadow]

My '86 was 2360, full wet, no driver, with 17's. With a bar in it. With the heater box.

This is what I don't get? How the H#LL is everyone so heavy? Must be like dyno #'s, depending what scale you go to! lol


Yes, leave the rack power but lose the pump and lines.

Yes, although not in a TM. A couple of friends turbo honda hatches had manual racks and they sucked to try and keep straight. The car was on the cusp of wheelspin so much that a touch of the wheel the wrong way, or a little bumpsteer and the whole car got unsettled and tried to change lanes if you weren't quick on the wheel. If you were quick on the wheel, you ruined the run because you were fighting the wheel so hard. It was a nightmare.


Thanks for the added info, go to know!




The advantage is control. When you have an external PROPERLY placed (ie, equal flow to turbine wheel and wastegate, or even prioritized to the wastegate) I can control boost to within .1-.2 psi of the boost target on an AEM or Motec.

An internal could too, if it were large enough and placed well, but none of them are. Therefor you get the..."how much boost was that?" "Oh, about 33-35 psi". Instead of, "33.4 for most of the run."

And if you place the wastegate right, and size your plumbing correctly, it opens up the door to more creative turbo sizing options than the "one size fits all" recommendations.

For our cars though, nobody (well, maybe a handful?) out there are dialing their chassis in to handle an extra .5 psi on the line and 1.5 psi through first gear and 2.2 psi more in second gear to compensate for a sticky track that day.

See what I mean?

Makes sense. Also makes sense why I haven't felt the need, as up until now, I run ALL of it and try to air down the slicks to hook me up! :D

Although, I've never had a problem dialing up or down the boost by 1/2lb and my boost target has always been very smooth and consistant through the RPM. I've always contributed this to the flow I've always had After the turbine.




That's an important part of that statement there. :)

And without trying to get into the header debate one more time. Yes, the stock piece will physically flow the quantity of air necessary for 500 whp, as shown. So will a log. So will large enough, mitre cut plumbers pipe stick welded together. :p

As you've stated, the header will give you the quality flow to drop your boost down and make the same power. Or go back to the same boost and make more. That sounds like more fun. :nod:

What's your air inlet plumbing like for the turbo?

This is where ppl get confused with me. :D How can I make that kind of statement with proof, then go and say that I agree with everything being said about how much MORE a header can do!

I can tell you this, we're going to find out exactly what a swap from ported stock mani to header will do on a build like this and within the next 6-8 months. I proved to myself, if no one else that what I believed was in fact true, now it's time to move on and see what else can/can't be proven!:amen:

Turbo inlet is 4" mandrel to K&N filter. Always just left it under the hood. But, I plumed it in a way that I could remove the left H/L and run the 4" right up and through the H/L opening and really get CAI! (just another thing I thought about and haven't had the chance to try out....yet! :evil:)

[Shadow]

[QUOTE=8valves;740213]
Yes, leave the rack power but lose the pump and lines.
[QUOTE]

When you say drop the lines, you still have the 2 looped together or left open/plugged? I run a power rack with the lines looped.
My car is 2460 with 1/2 tank of fuel and everything in it.

Does the "everything" include you?

[boost geek]

[quote=boost geek;740221][QUOTE=8valves;740213]
Yes, leave the rack power but lose the pump and lines.


Does the "everything" include you?

No driver. The intercooler must weigh 30 pounds alone.

[karlak]

Power steering rack minus power steering pump. You see what it did for this guy.

[turbovanman²]

When you say drop the lines, you still have the 2 looped together or left open/plugged? I run a power rack with the lines looped.
My car is 2460 with 1/2 tank of fuel and everything in it.

I would leave them looped together, so you don't make a mess and keep the rack lubed.


This is what I don't get? How the H#LL is everyone so heavy? Must be like dyno #'s, depending what scale you go to! lol

It's the air up there, its thinner so! :bolt:



I can tell you this, we're going to find out exactly what a swap from ported stock mani to header will do on a build like this and within the next 6-8 months. I proved to myself, if no one else that what I believed was in fact true, now it's time to move on and see what else can/can't be proven!:amen:


Can't wait, Aaron's test on a stock engine was an eye opener, :partywoot:

[turboshad]

It's the air up there, its thinner so! :bolt:


Nope, I'm 1400ft higher than him and mine is still a heavy beast. I've always had the opposite feeling Rob. How are all you guys so damn light?

[Shadow]

Nope, I'm 1400ft higher than him and mine is still a heavy beast. I've always had the opposite feeling Rob. How are all you guys so damn light?

Well, L-body for one! lol Maybe the scale I used was screwed? We'll all have to have a weigh off at SDAC next year! :thumb:

[bakes]

Nope, I'm 1400ft higher than him and mine is still a heavy beast. I've always had the opposite feeling Rob. How are all you guys so damn light?

Metric!!!

[Ondonti]

Port the turbine housing, nothing else should be required to support 650whp. I won't get into the technique of doing that here as its not what most people think.

I am going to install staging brakes in my car whenever I get the AWD setup going. I try to leave too hard because racing soft feels like I shouldn't bother showing up. Still, I have seen some EVo's that roll really slow out and still run 9 flats on a manual, they just have a little delay before completely letting out the clutch.
That would probably be the MOST important mod your car could have when it comes to going fast with a manual and not breaking drivetrain parts. Nothing to do with power or weight, but it will allow you to aggressively leave the hole which is all that really matters at this point in your trek.

600hp will do it. I think you can do it on less if you can roll out hard. I mean really really hard, with a nasty 1-2 shift.

[Shadow]

Port the turbine housing, nothing else should be required to support 650whp. I won't get into the technique of doing that here as its not what most people think.

Are you saying this is all I would have to do.....Peroid? (other than running more boost) Or do you simply mean that this is what needs doing in order to make the HE351 650WHP capable. (with the understanding that I would need all other mods to support this as well)

Also, are you suggesting that with a ported turbine housing the stock ported mani will do? (this would be a first for our community! Well, second if you include me. :D)

[8valves]

He's saying that making drastic power increases isn't the only way to make your car run 9's. :)

You need a way of coming out of the hole modulating the clutch, not just a rip-soar side step. If you're able to manage that task and keep a clutch living in it, then you don't need much more MPH to hit your mark.

[Shadow]

He's saying that making drastic power increases isn't the only way to make your car run 9's. :)

You need a way of coming out of the hole modulating the clutch, not just a rip-soar side step. If you're able to manage that task and keep a clutch living in it, then you don't need much more MPH to hit your mark.

I caught that part, I was asking about the ported turbo housing part.

With an auto I would agree with you. FWD, auto, high 130's mph could = 9's.

With an MTX most need 148-150mph traps to see 9's.

I'm thinking I'm going to need 145mph Minimal to reach that goal. If I did it on less I would be extatic, but I need to stay realistic about this.

When I was staring at the Charger a couple weeks ago, this is what I was thinking. Remove 200lb from the car, get light weight rear tires and rims (-40lb) rotating mass, make 50 more WHP.

I believe the car is capable of 10.5x's right now, the way I was running it last time out. I also believe I will be able to get this car into the 1.5x 60's. IF that turns out to be true AND I can shift this thing Right, coupled with the changes above, I should be close.

Don't forget, even with what the car has done, I'm still running PS, I'm still running the waterpump off the mtr as well. So there are a # of areas I could gain some extra power from if I needed it.

[turbovanman²]

I'd say another 100 whp, :eyebrows:

Even on bikes, going from 10's to 9's is a big step.

[Ondonti]

Are you saying this is all I would have to do.....Peroid? (other than running more boost) Or do you simply mean that this is what needs doing in order to make the HE351 650WHP capable. (with the understanding that I would need all other mods to support this as well)

Also, are you suggesting that with a ported turbine housing the stock ported mani will do? (this would be a first for our community! Well, second if you include me. :D)

Sorry, I am just referring to the turbo. Do not clip the wheels until you have hogged out the housing to high heaven. But seriously, I would just never clip the wheel.
There is a reason the VGT version is able to go to a huge A/R equivalent, its because the turbine wheel has plenty left. Just gotta use a little logic. I have done a lot of holset research in the past regarding the exhaust side but the VGT thing I just thought of. It has already been my opinion that porting is the way to go based on HX40's using the old crappy bullseye housing.

Basically, let go of any FWD dodge logic when it comes to making power with your turbo. I would say most of peoples ideas about turbos are wrong. Even some seemingly sound technical points made in the ".48 a/r housing" thread were wrong. Bigger wheels do not change your a/r. Its not really the place for that commentary, I prefer that over PM because we have quite a few people who don't deserve the 411 that they will want to fight about. Its a really simple deal but not something people understand.

Whatever power someone made at 55psi on diesel, you can do better in the upper 30's on gasoline with the right 8 valve motor setup. I am pretty sure 55psi is losing a LOT of HP just due to increase heat levels creating less dense intake charges.
Bansheenut's holset that i ported went much faster then Carrol's similar R/T setup, on less then 20 pounds of boost, at 4400 feet, heavier car, and with coupler halfway off so the turbo was really pissed off. I think he could have run 11.5 on 20 pounds of boost in his 3400 pound pig with good conditions and a good coupler. That was with a simple stage 5 FWD cal and pump gas with some meth. 2400 pound car with 35 pounds of boost on big slicks. Hell yes 9.99 if you can put the power down from start to finish.

Staging brakes though, seriously. Utah had a 10 second n/a 5 speed honda at 4400 feet last year. All glass windows, etc. They put every bit of power they have to the track for the greatest % of the run possible.
If you want to handicap yourself with manual and FWD (which I don't have a problem with) then you should align the rest of the stars in your favor!
That honda is so dang impressive it really should embarrass ALL of us for putting so much emphasis on HP and not on racing. That car really makes a lot of us look like ricers.

67mm turbos have pushed much heavier EVo's into the 8's so a 9.99 on a 60mm turbo is not crazy. For me I would never change turbos unless I changed displacement. Crazy that these little turbos can run 8's and 9's.
Isn't Warren on the verge of 9.99 with a much smaller turbo then you anyways? I think the huge difference between 5 speed and auto in our community is because we 5 speed guys just don't take certain things seriously like we should. Hondas are still beating the 8 second auto red sled neon, with manual transmissions.

[rx2mazda]

I think he could have run 11.5 on 20 pounds of boost in his 3400 pound pig with good conditions and a good coupler.


You can't bench race your friends way into mid 11's. :p

[rx2mazda]

You can't bench race your friends way into mid 11's. :p

Sorry Rob, couldn't resist lol. :focus:

[Shadow]

Sorry, I am just referring to the turbo. Do not clip the wheels until you have hogged out the housing to high heaven. But seriously, I would just never clip the wheel.

Like I've said in the past, with the right wheel (and ONLY the right wheel) you can get away with a clip Before concidering a larger A/R housing. Been there, done that, and it worked flawlessly. From 20 psi and on you couldn't tell it was clipped!

I agree with porting the housing and there are a # of other things that can be done to make it breath like a larger A/R as well.

Don't get me wrong, this turbo isn't going anywhere! (cept into the 9's!) It will be the last thing on my build that I will concider changing and ONLY after I have taken it to it's absolute limits!

BTW, my housing is lightly ported already. ;) Although, if I'm going to the efficiency of a tube header, I really don't think I'll have to do anything to the turbo, but I guess we'll see.

[Shadow]

Sorry Rob, couldn't resist lol. :focus:

Knock yourself out! :clap:

[Shadow]

Staging brakes though, seriously. Utah had a 10 second n/a 5 speed honda at 4400 feet last year. All glass windows, etc. They put every bit of power they have to the track for the greatest % of the run possible.
If you want to handicap yourself with manual and FWD (which I don't have a problem with) then you should align the rest of the stars in your favor!
That honda is so dang impressive it really should embarrass ALL of us for putting so much emphasis on HP and not on racing. That car really makes a lot of us look like ricers.

67mm turbos have pushed much heavier EVo's into the 8's so a 9.99 on a 60mm turbo is not crazy. For me I would never change turbos unless I changed displacement. Crazy that these little turbos can run 8's and 9's.
Isn't Warren on the verge of 9.99 with a much smaller turbo then you anyways? I think the huge difference between 5 speed and auto in our community is because we 5 speed guys just don't take certain things seriously like we should. Hondas are still beating the 8 second auto red sled neon, with manual transmissions.

First off, can you show me some evidence of MTX FWD's running the kind of times I'm talking about at high 13X mph? Or ANY mph below 145? Cause I still don't see it! (and let's stick to turbo 4 cyl FWD's for fair comparo)

Secondly, exactly what advantage do you think I'm going to see running a staging brake?

Lastly, I've done everything myself so far. No rev limiters, staging boxes ect. When I said I'm pretty sure this car can go 10.5X the way I ran it last time out, I ment I could do that my self. When I add launch control amoungst other things, and can hold boost off the line and launch at the same RPM (and dial that RPM into hooking me better) I'm not Only expecting to be more consistant..........

[turbovanman²]

Brent, can you explain your methods for putting ALL the power down etc, thanks.

[Shadow]

First off, can you show me some evidence of MTX FWD's running the kind of times I'm talking about at high 13X mph? Or ANY mph below 145? Cause I still don't see it! (and let's stick to turbo 4 cyl FWD's for fair comparo)

Secondly, exactly what advantage do you think I'm going to see running a staging brake?

Lastly, I've done everything myself so far. No rev limiters, staging boxes ect. When I said I'm pretty sure this car can go 10.5X the way I ran it last time out, I ment I could do that my self. When I add launch control amoungst other things, and can hold boost off the line and launch at the same RPM (and dial that RPM into hooking me better) I'm not Only expecting to be more consistant..........

BTW, I hope this didn't come out the wrong way! :D I have a habbit of #'ing things when I'm talking, but reading it over, I realized it could give someone the impression that I'm not buying what's being offered and my post could be missconstrude as "Defensive". :(

Hope no one's taking it that way, because I was really only talking in a very straight forward kind of way. :love:

[Orangetona]

BTW, I hope this didn't come out the wrong way! :D I have a habbit of #'ing things when I'm talking, but reading it over, I realized it could give someone the impression that I'm not buying what's being offered and my post could be missconstrude as "Defensive". :(

Hope no one's taking it that way, because I was really only talking in a very straight forward kind of way. :love:

Wow what a dick! Voicing his opinion and all. ;)

[Directconnection]

You can't bench race your friends way into mid 11's. :p

Hahaha... true! Then again... you were bench racing' this GLHT pretty hard last winter;)

I'd love to bench race my current project.... but don't dare to. I'll curse myself.

Brent, I've seen on youtube a white Evo push the 6262 into the 8's and dyno 740whp. That is unbelievable on that turbo...

BTW Brent.... what's up with your car? I know it's down for the count.....

[Kreel]

First off, can you show me some evidence of MTX FWD's running the kind of times I'm talking about at high 13X mph? Or ANY mph below 145? Cause I still don't see it! (and let's stick to turbo 4 cyl FWD's for fair comparo)


http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2592482

It's probably better to look at what the NA honda guys are doing since they are the ones fighting for every fraction of a second. All those cars are MTX. I can't point you to any build threads...but most of those honda's are running K-series pushing half the power you are and can rip a faster 1/4 with less MPH. And most are only a few hundred pounds lighter. These aren't 1500 lb shells. They get there because they break down every last little detail and try to perfect it. These aren't the crappy 17 second honda's running on the street. These guys KNOW what they're doing and they sure as hell can drive. I'm not knocking you; that's just the facts. Another fact is I bet all these cars have 10x more invested in them then you. That, in my mind, makes your car much more respectable :clap:

[Ondonti]

My car is fine, it actually just has the rear lexan window blown out because I need a little wing over the top of the hatch to keep from pressurizing the rear of my cabin (no seal, never will be a seal). I hope to get to afford to play with it soon.


Staging brake allows you to load up the drivetrain and slicks so nothing brakes even if you sidestep the clutch (hopefully). If you are running big tires, then you can probably put near all your power down in 1st gear.

If you watch hondas, while they have traditionally only run full power in part of 3rd and 4th, NGRtech/Miller is running Full 170+mph trap type power in 2nd gear and runnning 8.6's. Hondas still don't have a reliable transmission so most guys are just afraid to go all out. The thing about the honda guys is that they are all copycat cars. Someone else did it first, then charges a small fee to do it for you.

I would say the way to max out the simple motor setup (if you are traction limited) is really to have better engine management that can run timing per gear and speedo combined with a staging brake. If you have enough tire, you don't need to worry about HP/MPH so that would make engine management cheaper/simpler.

I can't find it again but my friend was just today showing me a green turbo integra (owned by someone named justin), pretty much slapped together with help from fast guys, that was running 10.4@141mph and then 10.01@146mph this last summer when he turned up the power in 1st and 2nd gear. I wish I could find he video of his 10.4. You can hear the power is down and then in 3rd the turbo screams. Then on the 10.01 his tires are screaming in 1-3rd. He is running a smaller tire then you and definitely 60's worse then you will so you can make up for any power/weight he might have over you.


If you are not flat shifting you are losing even more E.T., and if you are getting more then 1-2 pops out of the exhaust, you are not shifting fast enough. Really for shifts, you should be datalogging. I have heard once that .25 seconds is what the DSM world would shoot for in a "decent" shift. My shift is probably 3x that :(
3 .5 or .75 second shifts vs 3 .25 second shifts. Thats an extra .75-1.50 seconds of 600whp to the tires.

At some point somebody has to really beat on these things (our transmissions). Honda guys do not bat an eye at the idea of replacing a transmission. The 3 speed SRT-4 neon is now running a chromoly sleeved pinion shaft because that pos just kept failing. Time we learn some weaknesses.

[Ondonti]

Here is Fast Frank running 10.88 early last year. 2:49. Handbrake, then go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXDjGrOAkVw&feature=related
I can't find his Videos from later this year where he went 10.4 I think.

Real staging brake.
This is a backhalf car but he is doing 9.7 on only 136mph.
The fact is that I think you can easily do well over 140mph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0jh11o82i4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crcBVIpIaIw&feature=related

here are some n/a honda 1/4 breakdowns
http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2774595

1.57
4.4
6.9 @ 102
10.83 @ 125

1.55
4.56
7.04 @ 98
9.19
11.00 @ 125

1.59
4.52
6.93 @ 101.3
9.02
10.81 @126.2

60' is normally better...

2040 lbs. (this is an N/A car so you have 200-300whp over him easy).

Allenbuilt All Motor Street 10.58@129mph @WCF Trim (2215lbs)

1.54
4.38
6.770
101.38
8.883
10.588
127.69

Marc P
__________________
10.83@125/2220lbs 2009 Motor Street Champ

1.551
4.428
6.767 @ 104.52
8.797
10.518 @ 131.37

2170lbs
Same guy..

60ft. 1.512
333.
1/8. 6.954
mph. 102
10.886 @ 127
9.075
Fast Frank.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I didnt realize they were 60'ing so well. Shows how much we need to make up.

Anyways, the n/a cars are lighter then the turbo guys but don't give me 2 poops about how you can't make enough power to run 9.99 when your car is barely heavier then theirs and you have hundreds more HP.
10.491 @ 129.72-10.582 @ 132.26

[Ondonti]

10.81 @ 126 mph weighing 2060 lbs
323hp Dyno pull cuts off early so you can't see his whole powerband.
He is now running 10.43@131. Probably found some more power plus he put it down!

He is running an H series so he gets a lighter race weight then the K series guys I guess

His rev limiter is 11k in case anyone doesn't think his powerband is good enough. He doesn't make power up there but he had a funny problem where he couldn't shift because he was spinning and 11k was too much for his trans to shift. No idea the logic behind the 11k limiter. Might have something to do with putting down power or he is an idiot.
http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2678365
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee275/sowens81/323dyno.jpg

[Ondonti]

This car is obviously much lighter and has traction bars like one of the cars above, but this is a lil b series and 9.09@149 is putting power down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C_iPqd1MyI&feature=player_embedded

[Ondonti]

I think you can trap 140mph. The n/a guys are good to watch because its so hard for them to make HP. The turbo guys are often too HP drunk to get things right.
Chris Miller hit 1000whp @ 35psi 1250whp uncorrected (1212 SAE) at 46 psi, but even up to 61 pounds of boost (tried later in the season) did not result in more power or better performance. 26x10 slicks. Obviously not putting down 1250whp in first 2nd or 3rd gear but he puts down what is possible in each gear.
Last post. This motor let go (aluminum rods) after 200 pulls/runs and the current one probably makes more.
http://nrgtechracing.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2010-04-27T10%3A17%3A00-07%3A00&max-results=7


He just got beat last week for the MPH record.

2520 pound car, 72mm turbo. 183mph.
When it comes to WHP, they are making the huge numbers on small compressors by improving BSFC. They are running huge turbine housings.

I am going to doubt your housing porting really qualifies as what I am referring too.
Clipping the wheel before you have taken care of the housing won't make the power you want. Clipped wheel doesn't do anything to decrease the backpressure cause by the housing. There is a reason some guys are running t6 turbine housings on t4 turbos. Its not because clipping the turbine wheel is a good idea for power. :amen:

Feeling that the car is good doesn't actually mean a particular change really is as great as you think. Too many variables to claim something like that. If you are willing to give up the early spool, the power is in the housing, not the wheel.

I would say the turbo properly done should be able to make near 700 on the right fuel but all you need is 550-600. 680whp has already been done on the big HX40 compressor wheel. I believe that car ran 142 mph.

[Shadow]

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2592482

It's probably better to look at what the NA honda guys are doing since they are the ones fighting for every fraction of a second. All those cars are MTX. I can't point you to any build threads...but most of those honda's are running K-series pushing half the power you are and can rip a faster 1/4 with less MPH. And most are only a few hundred pounds lighter. These aren't 1500 lb shells. They get there because they break down every last little detail and try to perfect it. These aren't the crappy 17 second honda's running on the street. These guys KNOW what they're doing and they sure as hell can drive. I'm not knocking you; that's just the facts. Another fact is I bet all these cars have 10x more invested in them then you. That, in my mind, makes your car much more respectable :clap:

Thanks, some good info there. I think I see one car that is the weight that I'm hoping to be next year. Hopefully it's the weight that's making alot of the difference!

The 10X more invested says a lot though!



Staging brake allows you to load up the drivetrain and slicks so nothing brakes even if you sidestep the clutch (hopefully). If you are running big tires, then you can probably put near all your power down in 1st gear.

So, staging brake replaces ppl heel/toeing the brake gas with a mtx. I'll admitt that I've never done that.

If I have a problem holding axels together, I might look into this further. Keep in mind, this is a street driven car. Although, I could prob get away with running that lever right beside the e-brake, like dual levers.





I can't find it again but my friend was just today showing me a green turbo integra (owned by someone named justin), pretty much slapped together with help from fast guys, that was running 10.4@141mph and then 10.01@146mph this last summer when he turned up the power in 1st and 2nd gear. I wish I could find he video of his 10.4. You can hear the power is down and then in 3rd the turbo screams. Then on the 10.01 his tires are screaming in 1-3rd. He is running a smaller tire then you and definitely 60's worse then you will so you can make up for any power/weight he might have over you.

This is right where I'm hoping to be, so if this is your "Good" eg. of a turbo car running a good ET vs MPH then we're on the same page.



If you are not flat shifting you are losing even more E.T., and if you are getting more then 1-2 pops out of the exhaust, you are not shifting fast enough. Really for shifts, you should be datalogging. I have heard once that .25 seconds is what the DSM world would shoot for in a "decent" shift. My shift is probably 3x that :(
3 .5 or .75 second shifts vs 3 .25 second shifts. Thats an extra .75-1.50 seconds of 600whp to the tires.

Agreed, and I'm Not flat shifting.....yet! (hoping this will gain me a few tenths!) No poping though! :clap:


At some point somebody has to really beat on these things (our transmissions). Honda guys do not bat an eye at the idea of replacing a transmission. The 3 speed SRT-4 neon is now running a chromoly sleeved pinion shaft because that pos just kept failing. Time we learn some weaknesses.

I don't "snap" off the clutch or side step. I have a very "lazy" launch that I've developed over the years as I've made more power. I believe this is one of the reasons I haven't been breaking axels like others have.

How lazy? Put it this way. Years ago I dialed myself into leaving on the right light to net me consistent .5xx lights. (that would be .0xx depending on where you race) As I started to over power the slicks, I started to ease up on how fast I would lift my clutch foot. I never re-adjusted for the lights, so now I cut pretty consistant .7xx lights.

Now don't get me wrong, up untill now it's been all about the MPH. 2011 is going to be ALL about hooking this thing up and gettting everything I can out of the "package".

My brother is right, I've been easy on the car, but it's got me this far and it's working flawlessly. Now it's time to see what she's Really got!

So, Yes, I will be WOT shifting and putting this thing through the gears like never before! But it will be a gradual progression. That's why I need to get out more than once a year! :lol:

[Shadow]

I think you can trap 140mph. The n/a guys are good to watch because its so hard for them to make HP. The turbo guys are often too HP drunk to get things right.

I'm thinking there's a little more to it than that. If there wasn't some dynamic diff in the way an N/A car (powerband) powers it's way down the track, contributing to the difference in ET vs MPH, I'm sure Someone with a turbo car would have put it together by now.....No?

I'm not saying that there isn't some good info that can be gleened from this.
It just seems strange to me that there are No eg's of turbo cars doing the same!


I am going to doubt your housing porting really qualifies as what I am referring too.

Agreed, I just thought it was funny to put that in there because I did "portmatch" it to the mani! lol


Clipping the wheel before you have taken care of the housing won't make the power you want. Clipped wheel doesn't do anything to decrease the backpressure cause by the housing. There is a reason some guys are running t6 turbine housings on t4 turbos. Its not because clipping the turbine wheel is a good idea for power. :amen:

While I agree with what your saying here, what your Not saying is the problem. IF the housing is NOT the restriction, but the wheel is.....then what? ;)


Feeling that the car is good doesn't actually mean a particular change really is as great as you think. Too many variables to claim something like that. If you are willing to give up the early spool, the power is in the housing, not the wheel.

Really? And there are No exceptions? Interesting, and when I said that at 20psi and up, you couldn't even tell the wheel was clipped, that was only one part of the equation. (drivability)

After clipping, we had to add 3lb More FP to the system to achieve the same A/F that we had at the same boost level. The car in Q went out and trapped higher than it ever did before and IF I would have had a preasure tap like I do on the Charger I'm 99% sure you would have seen a pr drop in the exhaust mani. ;)


I would say the turbo properly done should be able to make near 700 on the right fuel but all you need is 550-600. 680whp has already been done on the big HX40 compressor wheel. I believe that car ran 142 mph.

Again, we're on the same page here. 550-600 is exactly what I'm thinking I'll need and I'm positive that the HE351 can deliver that! :amen:

[turbovanman²]

The staging brake doesn't make sense, the last vid, the 9.7 run, he's not even really holding it on, or does the lever simply activate them and when you hit the clutch, it comes of? He doesn't even launch with any rpm, damn.



http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2592482

It's probably better to look at what the NA honda guys are doing since they are the ones fighting for every fraction of a second. All those cars are MTX. I can't point you to any build threads...but most of those honda's are running K-series pushing half the power you are and can rip a faster 1/4 with less MPH. And most are only a few hundred pounds lighter. These aren't 1500 lb shells. They get there because they break down every last little detail and try to perfect it. These aren't the crappy 17 second honda's running on the street. These guys KNOW what they're doing and they sure as hell can drive. I'm not knocking you; that's just the facts. Another fact is I bet all these cars have 10x more invested in them then you. That, in my mind, makes your car much more respectable :clap:

Wow, those Honda's blew my mind, unreal running 10's with no turbo, :nx:, etc, :hail:

[Kreel]

Wow, those Honda's blew my mind, unreal running 10's with no turbo, :nx:, etc, :hail:

Sadly, yes, there are more 10 sec all motor honda's then there are 10 second TM's. Some are daily driven on the street. The formula is mostly the same: 90% are built K-series rev'ing to 10k+, custom geared transmissions, high $$$ suspension setups, lightweight bodies, etc.

[turbovanman²]

Sadly, yes, there are more 10 sec all motor honda's then there are 10 second TM's. Some are daily driven on the street. The formula is mostly the same: 90% are built K-series rev'ing to 10k+, custom geared transmissions, high $$$ suspension setups, lightweight bodies, etc.

This guy is doing it on the cheap, using an H22 engine, I think he's using stockish suspension too, :hail:

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2838438

Still though, I'd still prefer my van, Spirit R/T or L body, :nod:

[Shadow]

After doing a little reading the car I Thought was around the weight of what I hope to be next year is, well, much lighter.

It says 2300lbs, but when you look him up the thread on Honda forum says 2050!

So, let's break this down. Other than weight, which I'm already well aware will make me go faster period! (better 60', better everything) What are the contributing factors that you guys think make these N/A Hondas ET so well?

Let's stick to above and beyond what all the turbo cars are doing, since the consensus is that it's drastically different. Top 5?

[Kreel]

This guy is doing it on the cheap, using an H22 engine, I think he's using stockish suspension too, :hail:

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2838438

Still though, I'd still prefer my van, Spirit R/T or L body, :nod:

True; I think he's the exception, not the rule. Most honda boys chuck the H-series in the garbage which tells you already this guy likes to go against the grain :p Kudos to him for pulling it off. The flow #'s on that head are INSANE :clap:

[Kreel]

After doing a little reading the car I Thought was around the weight of what I hope to be next year is, well, much lighter.

It says 2300lbs, but when you look him up the thread on Honda forum says 2050!

So, let's break this down. Other than weight, which I'm already well aware will make me go faster period! (better 60', better everything) What are the contributing factors that you guys think make these N/A Hondas ET so well?

Let's stick to above and beyond what all the turbo cars are doing, since the consensus is that it's drastically different. Top 5?

Transmission options for one. Off the top of my head I don't know how many NA guys go to dogboxes. If they all do then it explains their wicked fast shifts at 10k+. They can also buy gearsets with different ratio's tailored to their setup. The amount of final drives they can swap in is also mind-blowing.

[Shadow]

This guy is doing it on the cheap, using an H22 engine, I think he's using stockish suspension too, :hail:

Albeit, "on the cheap" in Honda terms is anything below 40-50 grand! lol

Remember, the cheapest built Honda (dollars wise)= the most expensive Turbo dodge!

Just don't want ppl around here to get confused with thinking this car has a couple thou put into it. Which would still be considered a healthy build for one of our cars! :lol:

[Shadow]

Transmission options for one. Off the top of my head I don't know how many NA guys go to dogboxes. If they all do then it explains their wicked fast shifts at 10k+. They can also buy gearsets with different ratio's tailored to their setup. The amount of final drives they can swap in is also mind-blowing.

That's what I'm talking about. The mighty $! IF everything they're doing is anything like that (full custom trannys worth 8-15000$) ect, then I'm not sure how much of it is going to be of any use.

I'll go 9's on the tranny options we have right now before spending 20,000 on a custom dog box that'll get me there on 5 less mph! Biggest factor for me was a clutch, cause your not going 9's without the right clutch! That's a non-factor now, which is part of the reason I was even able to set this goal! ;)

[turbovanman²]

After doing a little reading the car I Thought was around the weight of what I hope to be next year is, well, much lighter.

It says 2300lbs, but when you look him up the thread on Honda forum says 2050!

So, let's break this down. Other than weight, which I'm already well aware will make me go faster period! (better 60', better everything) What are the contributing factors that you guys think make these N/A Hondas ET so well?

Let's stick to above and beyond what all the turbo cars are doing, since the consensus is that it's drastically different. Top 5?

I don't know, still trying to wrap my head around a 9-10 sec n/a Honda putting out 350 whp and 200 ft/lbs, :confused:


Albeit, "on the cheap" in Honda terms is anything below 40-50 grand! lol

Remember, the cheapest built Honda (dollars wise)= the most expensive Turbo dodge!

Just don't want ppl around here to get confused with thinking this car has a couple thou put into it. Which would still be considered a healthy build for one of our cars! :lol:

I know, lol, but his build is cheap compared to the others I've seen. I bet his car isn't close to 50K though, :eyebrows:


Transmission options for one. Off the top of my head I don't know how many NA guys go to dogboxes. If they all do then it explains their wicked fast shifts at 10k+. They can also buy gearsets with different ratio's tailored to their setup. The amount of final drives they can swap in is also mind-blowing.

I can't see that as the only reason, the car I mentioned is using a stock transmission, he just freshened it, so nothing exotic for him.

[rx2mazda]

Biggest factor for me was a clutch, cause your not going 9's without the right clutch! That's a non-factor now, which is part of the reason I was even able to set this goal! ;)

Is this an opinion/theory or has someone(TD or other)run 9's with the set-up your using. I would be interested in a clutch that could I could run 9/10's with and still drive like stock.

[turbovanman²]

Check out his clutch at around the 1:50 mark-


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwervbIWEAk

[Shadow]

Is this an opinion/theory or has someone(TD or other)run 9's with the set-up your using. I would be interested in a clutch that could I could run 9/10's with and still drive like stock.

Only my opinion, but heavier SRT-4's have gone 10's with this PP and a lesser 6 puck disc.

JT is running the same PP also in a heavier car with a lessor (COF) 6 puck.

My clutch set-up will hold 600WTQ without breaking a sweat, that's why I went with/developed it.

I guess running the car into the 9's will be a "proof" of sorts for the clutch, never really thought of it like that. I could tell the first time out on the 26's how much better it was and this spring, when I actually have enough time at the track to get it dialed in you'll know what I mean! :eyebrows:


Check out his clutch at around the 1:50 mark-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwervbIWEAk

Nice, that clutch is prob worth my entire P/T!

[turbovanman²]

Nice, that clutch is prob worth my entire P/T!

No doubt, :faint:

[thedon809]

Neons are the same way with going fast with lower hp n/a. Fella on neons.org is running low 12's with an n/a 2.4 making 240whp. I know one guy was making 310whp with a 2.0 revving to 9k (capable of 12k rpms) and running low 10's. I think he has a custom tranny with like a 5.12 fd ratio or something crazy like that.
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s112/metowired/th_M2U00776.jpg (http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s112/metowired/?action=view&current=M2U00776.mp4)

[turbovanman²]

Hangs head in shame of how slow some of our Turbo mopars are, :(

That thing runs like shitt down low, lol, but boy, does it rev, :nod:

[thedon809]

Hangs head in shame of how slow some of our Turbo mopars are, :(

That thing runs like shitt down low, lol, but boy, does it rev, :nod:17:1 compression, knife edged crank, dry sump oiling etc.

[turbovanman²]

17:1 compression, knife edged crank, dry sump oiling etc.

Damn!!!!

[Directconnection]

Hangs head in shame of how slow some of our Turbo mopars are, :(

That thing runs like shitt down low, lol, but boy, does it rev, :nod:

Those cars are SUPER light.... don't kid yourselves people. 2,050lbs is just sick....

And it's not a TMs are great thing, I mean look at just about any other street/strip turboed build... they are usually substantially heavier.

[Directconnection]

Also, for NA.... I'd so NOT go the 4 cylinder route. Gutted cars with I *agree* making pretty stout #s (300whp) do not turn me on whatsoever, impressive as it may be. I'd prefer a rwd NA V-8 car anyday, even though it makes 575hp and 3,300lbs to run 10s.

Turn to a Pro Stock or Super Stock car if you really want to see leading edge drag race technology. What those guys do in Pro Stock is insane with the intense limitations they have hampering them per the NHRA rulebook.

A 500ci Pro Stock car runs.... mid 6s... yet an 800+ci IHRA pro stock runs 6.2.... and a Pro Mod supercharged on alcohol runs the same....

[turbovanman²]

Those cars are SUPER light.... don't kid yourselves people. 2,050lbs is just sick....

And it's not a TMs are great thing, I mean look at just about any other street/strip turboed build.

Considering Shadow's car is what, 2400 lbs, that's still pretty light in the real world of things. Even still 10's or 9's with an n/a engine, at 2000 lbs or heavier, I believe the car with the H22 is 2100 lbs, is damn respectable. I also agree looking at other models but most of us drive turbo dodges, so that really applies right now.


Also, for NA.... I'd so NOT go the 4 cylinder route. Gutted cars with I *agree* making pretty stout #s (300whp) do not turn me on whatsoever. I'd prefer a rwd NA V-8 car anyday, even though it makes 575hp and 3,300lbs to run 10s.

I agree, but to each their own, :p

[Directconnection]

Don't forget, those weight #s are probably with driver.... even though they are 110lb Asians :D

edit: again... I do appreciate a 4cyl. NA motor making those #s.....

[turbovanman²]

Don't forget, those weight #s are probably with driver.... even though they are 110lb Asians :D

edit: again... I do appreciate a 4cyl. NA motor making those #s.....

Actually, quite a few are larger white boys, :p

[Directconnection]

Actually, quite a few are larger white boys, :p

You drivin' a Honda there now.... Pillsbury DoughBoy?

[boost geek]

Anyone here running with modified synchro gears, as in every other tooth removed? Thinking of doing mine.

[BadAssPerformance]

Anyone here running with modified synchro gears, as in every other tooth removed? Thinking of doing mine.

Discussion about this in Reeves thread. Yes it has been done, but AFAIK not in a high HP T-M yet...

[Shadow]

Anyone here running with modified synchro gears, as in every other tooth removed? Thinking of doing mine.

Since I've had 0 problems so far, I'm going to keep running as is and see how far she goes. I Might look into getting some shift forks welded up and ground down for my back up trans, just to see how that would work. :eyebrows:

[Shadow]

Considering Shadow's car is what, 2400 lbs, that's still pretty light in the real world of things.

I'm right around 2500lb with me in and in race trim. Depending what I drop at the track, exhaust ect. I can get down into the 24XX's.

I'm hoping to be 2300lb with me in the driver seat by spring, you might be surprized how much diff that could make!

IF the Charger was 2050lb with me in the driver seat right now, well, I'd be talking 9's without changing anything, it would be a drive away! ;)

[turbovanman²]

I'm right around 2500lb with me in and in race trim. Depending what I drop at the track, exhaust ect. I can get down into the 24XX's.

I'm hoping to be 2300lb with me in the driver seat by spring, you might be surprized how much diff that could make!

IF the Charger was 2050lb with me in the driver seat right now, well, I'd be talking 9's without changing anything, it would be a drive away! ;)

Nice weight, over a 1000 lbs less than mine, :wow1: :lol:

I bet, I can't wait to see what you get done over winter, :nod:

[Shadow]

Nice weight, over a 1000 lbs less than mine, :wow1: :lol:

That brings up an interesting Q, what do you carry around in that thing, LEAD? :confused:

[Directconnection]

That brings up an interesting Q, what do you carry around in that thing, LEAD? :confused:

Nope..... a spade, a hoe, rake..... a matress and LOTS of candy;)

Simon's tools of the trade...

[cordes]

Nope..... a spade, a hoe, rake..... a matress and LOTS of candy;)

Simon's tools of the trade...

I loled.

[turbovanman²]

That brings up an interesting Q, what do you carry around in that thing, LEAD? :confused:

Power windows, cruise, a/c, big brake kit front and rear, bigger sway bars and a rear sway bar, full carpeting, underlay, TIII. That weight is also at the track without the rear seat with 2 baby seasts and my underseat box with a jack, some tools etc, that's another 75-90 or so lbs.


Nope..... a spade, a hoe, rake..... a matress and LOTS of candy;)

Simon's tools of the trade...

You forgot a puppy and kiddy porn, :p

[Shadow]

Page 5 and the most surprising thing so far? The Total lack of concern for the NCB bottom end! lol

Now is this because after all this time ppl are just tired of guessing how far she's gonna go?

Or is it because no one wants to jinx it? (or a combo of both! Knock on wood!) :D

[thedon809]

Run her till she blows.

[Juggy]

Page 5 and the most surprising thing so far? The Total lack of concern for the NCB bottom end! lol

Now is this because after all this time ppl are just tired of guessing how far she's gonna go?

Or is it because no one wants to jinx it? (or a combo of both! Knock on wood!) :D

i was going to say something in the thread...i totally thought u were still running the older TII block.....

good for 250whp eh..............:hail:
i think you blew that theory out of the "block" :thumb:

[turbovanman²]

Page 5 and the most surprising thing so far? The Total lack of concern for the NCB bottom end! lol

Now is this because after all this time ppl are just tired of guessing how far she's gonna go?

Or is it because no one wants to jinx it? (or a combo of both! Knock on wood!) :D

You already know my answer, :eyebrows:

[86Shelby]

I could care less about what block you're running. Now if you were running lightweight stock rods with stock 1986-issued bolts that would prompt me to put some money down.

[Shadow]

Cool! No worries about the 87-88 block, no worries about the stock rods, I really like your guys attitudes! :thumb:

[onerippinturbo2]

i've got no worries about the whole lower end rob, run it till it comes unglued and see where you end up, that was always my quest for my charger, hell still is just need to get the kid's glhs done.

[ohiorob]

WOW 9's that's a tall order. I wish you the best. I stopped trying and decided to keep it simple '' because I'm no Genius and not Rich '' and reliable as possible. Mid to low 10's is awesome. look at the V8 guys you run up against that run the same times, most of them are strictly strip cars with big azz slicks. Im not trying to discourage you, just enjoy the ride getting there no matter how long it takes you ;)
looking forward to sdac next year.

[Shadow]

WOW 9's that's a tall order. I wish you the best. I stopped trying and decided to keep it simple '' because I'm no Genius and not Rich '' and reliable as possible. Mid to low 10's is awesome. look at the V8 guys you run up against that run the same times, most of them are strictly strip cars with big azz slicks. Im not trying to discourage you, just enjoy the ride getting there no matter how long it takes you ;)
looking forward to sdac next year.

Most definatly my friend! Any dates set for SDAC yet? (the wife gets 2 weeks hol for 2011 and if there are a couple events back to back I was hoping to spend the whole time running with you guys!)

It took me 5 years from the time I set the goal for 10's, so ya, not saying it's going to happen over night, or even by the end of next year for that matter!

Things are slightly different this time though. The first three year in my quest for 10's, I was handcuffed by being too rich and not having the means to correct. I also handcuffed myself by limiting what I would let myself do to achieve the goal! I believe that has brought me to where I am with MORE left on the table than most. I'm not aware of any other 2.2 8v out there running the kind of ET and mph the charger is with no real regard to weight savings, still running PS and WP off mtr, power 4WD brakes ect ect.

Granted, I still have limitations for this goal, but not power wise. I can run any cam, any header, any head....

Now the only kicker would be IF I didn't think I could make the power to get it done, That just doesn't exist within me.

Add to this the way the last two years have gone and I really needed to "solidify" what I was going to do with the car from here. Without an absolute goal to strive for, I'm afraid I'll just run the car and whatever!

I can tell you this, ever since I set that goal I feel determined again, I feel a sense of purpose. Does that sound silly? :o

[BadAssPerformance]

SDAC-21 will be June 25-29 :thumb:

I agree, it's good to have goals :nod:

I think OhioRob's comment is just that 9's are pretty damn hard to get to, exponentially harder than 10's, not that its not possible, just more difficult and expensive.

Just curious, what's your full list of limitations for this goal?

[Shadow]

SDAC-21 will be June 25-29 :thumb:

I agree, it's good to have goals :nod:

I think OhioRob's comment is just that 9's are pretty damn hard to get to, exponentially harder than 10's, not that its not possible, just more difficult and expensive.

Just curious, what's your full list of limitations for this goal?

One doesn't need to look too far to realize just how hard 9's is going to be, not many of us have done it!

This was my biggest apprehension when it came to posting this thread and making my intentions public. I didn't want to offend or step on the toes of those that have tried and fallen short before me.

I also know I have a tendancy of making thing sound easy, (or making it sound like I think it's going to be easy) Trust me, that's Not the case, but once I make up my mind to do something, my mind Will Not stop until It's solved. I can't explain it, it's just how I'm wired.

I will not run no2

I will not go 16v

I will not go auto

I will remain FWD, no AWD or RWD.

The car will remain a legal street driver, so I will have wipers, H/L's etc.
Although, anything that I can readily unbolt and bolt back on at the track, just like slicks I will allow myself to do. (like dropping my v-band exhaust for weight savings, then bolting it back on for the street)

The biggest factor I see right now, can I loose 200lbs without it effecting the streetability of the car! Cause if I can't, I'm going to need to make more power than I'm thinking, that Could hamper things quite a bit.

The next biggest factor, can I drive this car well enough to achieve the goal, I have to believe I can. I have only become better as the years have gone by and I believe that trend will continue right into the 9's.

[BadAssPerformance]

Sounds like a good challenge :thumb:

[Force Fed Mopar]

Page 5 and the most surprising thing so far? The Total lack of concern for the NCB bottom end! lo

Or is it because no one wants to jinx it? (or a combo of both! Knock on wood!) :D

This for me since I'm building one :D

[Rampage16V]

That will be too cool Rob!
Go for it!

[Vigo]

Im not worried about the rods because you aren't A. Misshifting it to eleventy-billion rpm, or B. Detonating. DONT do those two things and its amazing how rods will just.. not break! :p

Im reading this thread with great interest.

I think you can lose 200 lbs and remain fully streetable.

[Force Fed Mopar]

What have you removed out of the car so far, anything? Still have a backseat? Carpet? Spare tire? :p

[thedon809]

What is the definition of streetable though? I daily drove my daytona for months with nothing but a drivers seat, shifter, dash, and heater box. I made 3 hour trips in it too.

[bakes]

What is the definition of streetable though? I daily drove my daytona for months with nothing but a drivers seat, shifter, dash, and heater box. I made 3 hour trips in it too.

I think the term Rob is looking for is street legal witch is far for streetable.

[Shadow]

What is the definition of streetable though? I daily drove my daytona for months with nothing but a drivers seat, shifter, dash, and heater box. I made 3 hour trips in it too.

Car has to be able to pass a Manitoba safty inspection and be insured. So everything needs to be working and I obviously can't swiss cheese it.

[Shadow]

What have you removed out of the car so far, anything? Still have a backseat? Carpet? Spare tire? :p

I wish I was still running with the spare, that would be some easy weight to loose!

I removed the carpet underlay, (floor has sprayed on sound deadning anyways) No back seat (my rear bar for my cage is right where the seat use to be) I took out my sunroof a couple years ago and tried to lighten it up to simulate a non-sunroof weight of car, I think I saved 5lbs. No spare or jack when I run, like I said, anything that can be easily swapped on or off the car to run it at the track is fair game, as long as when it's put back on and driven on the street it's legal.

I think that's about it.

[Shadow]

While we're talking weight savings, anyone remember those front airdam side pieces that someone offered to make out of fiberglass/carbonfibre?

[Vigo]

Wasnt there something earlier in the thread about you having a lighter rear axle?

[bakes]

Need to find someone who can fab these up for us
26980

[bakes]

Also need to find a hobby lathe and gun drill all the bolts i can ( not doing critical bolts).

[Force Fed Mopar]

You can get fiberglass rear hatches I think, that w/ a lexan (or similar) back glass would probably save a bunch of weight. Can't remember if you said or not, but if you still have AC you could probably lose 25-30 lbs removing the compressor, dryer, condenser and lines. Maybe lexan quarter windows also. Maybe remove the sway bar (probably weighs 10 lbs at least). Remove the power steering pump as mentioned earlier. Not sure what else could come off, the L's were pretty spartan to start with.

[Shadow]

Wasnt there something earlier in the thread about you having a lighter rear axle?

I was talking about lightening the rear axel as one of the areas I could shave some weight. Haven't done it yet.

[Shadow]

Need to find someone who can fab these up for us
26980

That would be sweet!


You can get fiberglass rear hatches I think, that w/ a lexan (or similar) back glass would probably save a bunch of weight. Can't remember if you said or not, but if you still have AC you could probably lose 25-30 lbs removing the compressor, dryer, condenser and lines. Maybe lexan quarter windows also. Maybe remove the sway bar (probably weighs 10 lbs at least). Remove the power steering pump as mentioned earlier. Not sure what else could come off, the L's were pretty spartan to start with.

I think the rear 1/4 glass is only a couple lbs to begin with? (although I Should be thinking in OZ at a time cause there's only a few things that will add up to big savings)

I'm thinking lighter front suspension, lighter rear suspension, lighter brakes, maybe loose the large brake booster, loose the PS, I may go to an electric WP. Take some weight of of certain pieces like mounts.

If I have to port the head some more to make the power needed there will be some weight savings there as well! :D

[Force Fed Mopar]

All I know is, that hatch is heavy :) The glass probably weighs around 10lbs, I have one out but no way to weigh it.

Not sure coil-overs weigh much less than regular struts/springs, but you will get more adjustability which may help you hook better. 1st Gen fwd DSM stuff will fit all round w/ minor mods, and the 2nd Gen Neon front strut struts fit the front, so that gives you some good options. I suppose there's always the Konis too :) Not sure if they are still available for the L-body though. Rbryant is looking into having some BC coilovers made, might want to get with him also.

Not sure where else in the suspension you can lose weight, unless of course money is no object ;) If it's not, then custom tubular k-frame and control arms can save you weight probably. I think Turboshad was working on designing some chromemoly arms. If you are going custom frame then you can design it to use the newer dual pivot arms. Although looking at the two the other day, I wonder if the old style arm isn't better for drag racing, looks like the rear bushing design of the old one would hold the arm from trying to move forward under power better than the newer one.

Might be able to save a couple pounds with lightweight brake calipers also, should be a fairly simple thing to have custom brackets built/machined if necessary.

[Shadow]

All I know is, that hatch is heavy :) The glass probably weighs around 10lbs, I have one out but no way to weigh it.

Not sure coil-overs weigh much less than regular struts/springs, but you will get more adjustability which may help you hook better. 1st Gen fwd DSM stuff will fit all round w/ minor mods, and the 2nd Gen Neon front strut struts fit the front, so that gives you some good options. I suppose there's always the Konis too :) Not sure if they are still available for the L-body though. Rbryant is looking into having some BC coilovers made, might want to get with him also.

Not sure where else in the suspension you can lose weight, unless of course money is no object ;) If it's not, then custom tubular k-frame and control arms can save you weight probably. I think Turboshad was working on designing some chromemoly arms. If you are going custom frame then you can design it to use the newer dual pivot arms. Although looking at the two the other day, I wonder if the old style arm isn't better for drag racing, looks like the rear bushing design of the old one would hold the arm from trying to move forward under power better than the newer one.

Might be able to save a couple pounds with lightweight brake calipers also, should be a fairly simple thing to have custom brackets built/machined if necessary.

We're deff on the same page, as I've already thought of/ am pursuing everything you just mentioned!

Also funny that you mention $'s, as this weight reduction is looking to cost me more than I've put into the car in the last 5 years! :wow1:

[Vigo]

Ok, heres some of my thoughts on the weight thing, some of which have already been mentioned.

Hatch glass definitely.

Quarter windows definitely only because they are so easy to replicate and r&r. I would agree they wouldnt be worth it if they were hard.

Bumper supports.

Possibly hatch-area floorpan/tire well. Aluminum sheet?

Here's a few that go together.. Isnt there one of the 10-second l-body members here who ditched the front mount completely and is using a mount that attaches to the bobble-strut bracket and the lower bellhousing?

If you were to do something like that, there's a few benefits:
1. It would be super easy to adjust the preload on it.
2. You lose the weight of the front mount.
3. You lose the weight of the bobble strut and bracket
4. Your front bulkhead no longer has to be strong enough to take the force of the front motor mount.. which means you COULD cut that thick/heavy part out and replace it with something much lighter.
5. Combine this with a lighter-weight k-frame, too.

[turbovanman²]

I can tell you this, ever since I set that goal I feel determined again, I feel a sense of purpose. Does that sound silly? :o

Not at all, remember my goal of running full weight and full exhaust, well now, I've dropped the full exhaust bit, lol.

[Shadow]

Need to find someone who can fab these up for us
26980

Bakes, what brand are those, they don't look like wilwood?

[bakes]

I cant recall but they are for a Fbody chevy if that helps.

[Shadow]

You can get fiberglass rear hatches I think, that w/ a lexan (or similar) back glass would probably save a bunch of weight. Can't remember if you said or not, but if you still have AC you could probably lose 25-30 lbs removing the compressor, dryer, condenser and lines. Maybe lexan quarter windows also. Maybe remove the sway bar (probably weighs 10 lbs at least). Remove the power steering pump as mentioned earlier. Not sure what else could come off, the L's were pretty spartan to start with.

Any Idea who had the fibreglass hatches?

[BadAssPerformance]

All I know is, that hatch is heavy :) The glass probably weighs around 10lbs, I have one out but no way to weigh it. .

Almost the same size... the glass in a Daytona hatch is 26 lbs


Any Idea who had the fibreglass hatches?

22Shelby works at VFN...

[Force Fed Mopar]

Any Idea who had the fibreglass hatches?

Hairy Glass in Jacksonville Florida.

http://hairyglass.com/

Look under Omni parts. They have front clips and doors too.

[thedon809]

Hairy Glass in Jacksonville Florida.

http://hairyglass.com/

Look under Omni parts. They have front clips and doors too.Looks like it's all 2 door stuff :(. Time to buy charger.

[Shadow]

Kind of surprised that the front end is the older style and not the S/C cover. Looks like some nice selection for the G-body crowd though.

Would be a lot more convenient IF they would post the weight with the pic, I would think that would be the #1 Q.

[Shadow]

Wasn't there a thread on here about fiberglass/carbonfibre pieces, with a poll to gauge interest in what pieces to make. Maybe even group buy pricing?

I looked in the sales and general vendor area, but couldn't find it? :confused2:

[Juggy]

id love me a hairy glass hatch, with some M10 lexan!!

and ill take a hood too.......damn i wish i was RICH

[Shadow]

id love me a hairy glass hatch, with some M10 lexan!!

and ill take a hood too.......damn i wish i was RICH

Notice, they didn't do the turbo hood, just the plain, which I also find kind of weird......:(

[karlak]

.......damn i wish i was RICH


If you were rich would you be driving an old TD. :confused:

[bakes]

Notice, they didn't do the turbo hood, just the plain, which I also find kind of weird......:(


That is because the RWD guy
want a non turbo hood so the could cut there big air scoop into them.

[glhs0426]

For brakes, look into a V6 LX car. The calipers are aluminum single piston and very light. New they are not cheap (front $187.00ea, rear $93.00ea), but there should be enough in the recycler yards for them to be dirt cheap.

[Shadow]

For brakes, look into a V6 LX car. The calipers are aluminum single piston and very light. New they are not cheap (front $187.00ea, rear $93.00ea), but there should be enough in the recycler yards for them to be dirt cheap.

Cool, I was wondering about factory equipt Al caliper apps and which ones would be a good fit!

Has anyone actually tried this to see if they fit/work or is it still in the "sounds like a great idea" stage?

[turbovanman²]

Notice, they didn't do the turbo hood, just the plain, which I also find kind of weird......:(

Maybe they thought the N/A guys needed more help?


If you were rich would you be driving an old TD. :confused:

Hell yeah, I'd have a fleet of my favourite ones and work on them for fun. I'd also have a dozen Minivans of different years all turbo'd with one gutted, carbon fibre everything and it would run 9's, hehehehe, :evil:

I would make some or all AWD and have a machinist on call to make me parts, :eyebrows:

[glhs0426]

Cool, I was wondering about factory equipt Al caliper apps and which ones would be a good fit!

Has anyone actually tried this to see if they fit/work or is it still in the "sounds like a great idea" stage?

I will try to take measurements if I get one in the shop for a time. You'll need pics, mounting point measurements, mounting point to rotor, caliper piston to outside pad "seat", and what else?

[Shadow]

I will try to take measurements if I get one in the shop for a time. You'll need pics, mounting point measurements, mounting point to rotor, caliper piston to outside pad "seat", and what else?

Do you remeber if they're solid mount or floating? Would need the measurement from center of mounting hole to top of pads (or top of inside caliper)

That would be crazy for you to do all that!

I've been looking into Wilwoods before this came up. Haven't made up my mind yet, so all options are welcome! :thumb:

[glhs0426]

Do you remeber if they're solid mount or floating? Would need the measurement from center of mounting hole to top of pads (or top of inside caliper)

Yes. The calipers slide on a pin, but the end of the pin is threaded. The pin butts up against the caliper bracket and a bolt is run through the bracket into the pin to secure the pin. If memory serves me correctly I think the fox body mustang had this type of mount. (could be wrong). I'll post pics if I get the opportunity to snap them.

[Shadow]

Yes. The calipers slide on a pin, but the end of the pin is threaded. The pin butts up against the caliper bracket and a bolt is run through the bracket into the pin to secure the pin. If memory serves me correctly I think the fox body mustang had this type of mount. (could be wrong). I'll post pics if I get the opportunity to snap them.

Sounds good!

[Juggy]

Notice, they didn't do the turbo hood, just the plain, which I also find kind of weird......:(

less work and weight i can only assume lol

id just chop a big hole out of the center, and slap on a fibreglass cowl :thumb:
im actually on the lookout for a non turbo hood. so I can do just that....

maybe ill jus have to save my pennies for the fibre hood :)

[Shadow]

Wasn't there a thread on here about fiberglass/carbonfibre pieces, with a poll to gauge interest in what pieces to make. Maybe even group buy pricing?

I looked in the sales and general vendor area, but couldn't find it? :confused2:

Does anyone remember this? I can't find it anywhere.

I seem to remember the person worked for a company that did this kind of work and had a poll going to see if it would be feesable to make doors, hatches, hoods ect.

Anyone?

[bakes]

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46011&highlight=HOODS

[turbovanman²]

I've been looking into Wilwoods before this came up. Haven't made up my mind yet, so all options are welcome! :thumb:

I have some for sale, :eyebrows:

[ShadowBrad]

Yes. The calipers slide on a pin, but the end of the pin is threaded. The pin butts up against the caliper bracket and a bolt is run through the bracket into the pin to secure the pin. If memory serves me correctly I think the fox body mustang had this type of mount. (could be wrong). I'll post pics if I get the opportunity to snap them.

Sounds like the same kinda setup that my '99 Protege has on the front of it. Except the Mazda brakes are really tiny.

-brad

[Shadow]

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46011&highlight=HOODS

That's the one! Damn, I can't believe I couldn't find it. Pretty sure I looked in that section after looking in the for sale and group buy and vendor sections.

So I guess nothing ever came of it?

One thing I'll say about the company, (I have no idea the quality?) Nice to see the weights being advertised with the product!

8lbs for a hatch complete with wing! (Gotta calm down, don't get too excited now :rockon:)

[Force Fed Mopar]

That is light. Too bad it's a pin-on :( W/ a lexan glass it probably comes to less than 20lbs total :)

[54inches]

subscribe......any work done on the car yet?

[Shadow]

I have some for sale, :eyebrows:

Which ones?

[turbovanman²]

Which ones?


http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44825&highlight=valve+springs

[bakes]

Has anyone weighed a rear drum and hub against a rear disc and hub to see which rotating mass is lighter?????

[GLHNSLHT2]

I weighed the drums off my new yorker vs. the 11" rear discs I put on. The drums are substantially lighter. IIRC it was 10+lbs. I think around 15lbs. So for a drag car I'd run the drums. I like the 11" rear discs for a street and road race car.

[bakes]

I weighed the drums off my new yorker vs. the 11" rear discs I put on. The drums are substantially lighter. IIRC it was 10+lbs. I think around 15lbs. So for a drag car I'd run the drums. I like the 11" rear discs for a street and road race car.

Thats what i was thinking .
And if your to put a Alu. hub in there and cut the drum to max and just mabe alittle more (this is used for drag and very light street only ) that would realy drop the rotating weight even more.

[bakes]

Has anyone wieghed the solid vrs the finned rotors??

[Vigo]

The drums on a new yorker are 220mm too, the 200mm ones might shed a few lbs over that.

[Pat]

What axles do you run in the car?

[Shadow]

subscribe......any work done on the car yet?

All I've been doing so far is a lot of measuring, weighing and brainstorming.

Been talking with several forum members, trying to weigh All of my options.


http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44825&highlight=valve+springs

I would need to know the model # and style description.

[Shadow]

Has anyone wieghed the solid vrs the finned rotors??

I'm in the proccess of doing this right now. Even though drum brakes are the cheap and easy sway for weight, I really want to keep the rear discs.

So far it's looking like I can shead 30-40lbs off the brake system alone and end up with as good or most likely Better AWD set-up than I had before!


What axles do you run in the car?

I run the beefy stock Dynasty axles.

[54inches]

Interesting. I guess the car has always seemed more streetable with the PS.
Although I have driven manual steering cars without issue.

Considering what I'm attempting to do, I would think It would be wise to loose the PS and at least give the manual rack a try.

After all, that 1 change could equate to 5-7% of my weight loss + 10% of my hp gain.


All I've been doing so far is a lot of measuring, weighing and brainstorming.

Been talking with several forum members, trying to weigh All of my options.

I would need to know the model # and style description.


Cool.

Personally I would stay away from shedding weight through using drums over disc, but I am used to dealing with heavier cars and the druns may provide sufficient stopping at 145 mph.

I would just be careful. :)

[135sohc]

Has anyone wieghed the solid vrs the finned rotors??

11.2 solid
14.4 vented Lbs was used

[Shadow]

11.2 solid
14.4 vented Lbs was used

What all where you weighing? (calipers/pads included?)

[GLHNSLHT2]

that's just the rotors though right?

[135sohc]

just the rotors yes.

calipers are within .1 lbs of being the same (3.9 vs 4) and the pads are the same for both and could vary by mfg and composition so no real comparison is worth doing imo.

I only have the non vented backing plates here but no scale that would be close. They weigh less than a non vented rotor though

[Vigo]

An early setup without the internal drum parking brake would almost certainly weigh less by a lb or two as well, for what thats worth.

But really, you dont need any kind of parking brake hardware at all if you happen to have a line lock which weighs all of like 10 ounces.


I run the beefy stock Dynasty axles.

Rarr, my dynastys bring the beef. Lol.

[rx2mazda]

Food for thought;

Brian stops his 8 second 23XXlbs BSX from 160 mph with stock 87 Shadow brakes, drums in the back without the chute.

[turbovanman²]

I weighed the drums off my new yorker vs. the 11" rear discs I put on. The drums are substantially lighter. IIRC it was 10+lbs. I think around 15lbs. So for a drag car I'd run the drums. I like the 11" rear discs for a street and road race car.

Reeves switched to some lightweight rotors/calipers in the back, I believe he posted up the weight.



I would need to know the model # and style description.

Post 7, hehehe-

Ok, part number on the caliper is "BE 120-3191", ear spacing is 3.5" and with the pistons pushed all the way back, the gap is 2 11/16". They are Wilwood Superlites.

[bakes]

Food for thought;

Brian stops his 8 second 23XXlbs BSX from 160 mph with stock 87 Shadow brakes, drums in the back without the chute.

+ RUNS a rear skinnys without locking it up wouldn't want to do it with a slh big rotor package as you most like trade ends while hauling it down from speed.

[Shadow]

just the rotors yes.

calipers are within .1 lbs of being the same (3.9 vs 4) and the pads are the same for both and could vary by mfg and composition so no real comparison is worth doing imo.

I only have the non vented backing plates here but no scale that would be close. They weigh less than a non vented rotor though

Crap, never weighed them because I'm not going to run them, but nice to know I'll be saving that much of the front! (I thought the front rotors were like 11lbs)

Rear SRT-4 rotors are only 9lb xoz, so I was surprized that the non-vented were that heavy as well!

[Shadow]

Food for thought;

Brian stops his 8 second 23XXlbs BSX from 160 mph with stock 87 Shadow brakes, drums in the back without the chute.

My thoughts exactly! (not that I knew what was stopping Brian)

IF I can remove 200lbs the Charger should be no more than 2300lbs with me in the DS. Obviously the lighter the car gets, the less braking is required (if you get what I mean by "less")

I'm looking to run the least amount of brake possible to do the job, and it's still looking like it will be a better set-up than what I'm running now.



Reeves switched to some lightweight rotors/calipers in the back, I believe he posted up the weight.



Post 7, hehehe-

Ok, part number on the caliper is "BE 120-3191", ear spacing is 3.5" and with the pistons pushed all the way back, the gap is 2 11/16". They are Wilwood Superlites.

Been talking to Reeves about his rear end! lol :p Seems our L-body "tooshies" are going to have mucho in common. :yuck: (trouble believing I just said that!)

[turbovanman²]

Been talking to Reeves about his rear end! lol :p Seems our L-body "tooshies" are going to have mucho in common. :yuck: (trouble believing I just said that!)

Damn! :faint::bolt:

[Shadow]

Was there ever a 5 bolt solid disc front rotor application on any of the Dodge FWD's?

[bakes]

Was there ever a 5 bolt solid disc front rotor application on any of the Dodge FWD's?

None that i can remember . What about cross drilled vented rotors?

[Vigo]

I think aries/reliant with 13inch wheels MIGHT have been non-vented, but cant remember for sure. Even if they are vented, those were some tiny brakes. Last time i saw some was when i tossed them offa my aries right after getting it. lol

[Pat]

My Aries is an '88 Aries America....bottom of the barrell. And those brakes are very, very small.

[Juggy]

Has anyone weighed a rear drum and hub against a rear disc and hub to see which rotating mass is lighter?????

the rear drum is def lighter

i swapped on non vented 89-90 disk brakes onto my car. the axle def weighed more. altho it had about 20 extra pounds with the poly bushing rear sway bar......

if you have discs and you want to switch to drums, i can bet you will save like 10 pounds per side.....

swap to 200mm drums and make it even lighter...

[bakes]

I think aries/reliant with 13inch wheels MIGHT have been non-vented, but cant remember for sure. Even if they are vented, those were some tiny brakes. Last time i saw some was when i tossed them offa my aries right after getting it. lol

I think when going to the 13' brakes is also takes you to 4 bolt from 5.

[Shadow]

the rear drum is def lighter

i swapped on non vented 89-90 disk brakes onto my car. the axle def weighed more. altho it had about 20 extra pounds with the poly bushing rear sway bar......

if you have discs and you want to switch to drums, i can bet you will save like 10 pounds per side.....

swap to 200mm drums and make it even lighter...

Stock to stock I would agree, but add in some 1 1/2lb Wilwood calipers with the 87-88 rear discs and I'm willing to bet it would be pretty close to the smaller drum set-up. ;)

[Shadow]

I think when going to the 13' brakes is also takes you to 4 bolt from 5.

That's what I was thinking. I know the front base model 4 bolt rotors are solid, was pretty sure that was it, but it never hurts to ask. :nod:

[bakes]

That's what I was thinking. I know the front base model 4 bolt rotors are solid, was pretty sure that was it, but it never hurts to ask. :nod:

BUT i didnt say we can't redrill a duel pattern on the 13" rotors like a VW jetta has. ( wait i just had a idea i have some vw rotors at work i have to measure them up)

[Shadow]

BUT i didnt say we can't redrill a duel pattern on the 13" rotors like a VW jetta has. ( wait i just had a idea i have some vw rotors at work i have to measure them up)

Ha, GMTA! I've had drills spinning in my head for the last two weeks! (going over every part that can possibly be lightened without loss of integrity)

So, you say dual drilled, I say weight loss! :thumb:

[bakes]

Ha, GMTA! I've had drills spinning in my head for the last two weeks! (going over every part that can possibly be lightened without loss of integrity)

So, you say dual drilled, I say weight loss! :thumb:

Your reading my mind:D

[bakes]

Here is another VW thing they do for rotating weight loss is they lose the wheel stud and lug nut and thread the hub and use wheel bolt's PM me if you want to go this route i happen to have some to do a whole car.

[boost geek]

Would you not have a problem passing tech if you run slicks and not having an exposed stud and an open nut?

[Force Fed Mopar]

I don't see where a bolt is gonna be much less weight than a stud and nut. I think the stud will hold better too.

[bakes]

I don't see where a bolt is gonna be much less weight than a stud and nut. I think the stud will hold better too.
because the bolt has no head on the back side as per the lug and it has the same amount of threads holding the clamping the bolt as per the lug nut. and the DRIVE end is howl as it has nothing to do with the clamp force

27175

[bakes]

PLus the porsche bolts are the same design but made for light weight alloy and are about 1/2 or more lighter.

[Shadow]

Here is another VW thing they do for rotating weight loss is they lose the wheel stud and lug nut and thread the hub and use wheel bolt's PM me if you want to go this route i happen to have some to do a whole car.

I never would have guessed they did that for weight loss. I've owned a few VW's and I still remember the first time I changed the tires and was like WTF?

I was so use to dropping the rim onto the studs that I found it a minor PITA to do it without them! lol

Had no idea Porsche's were like that either. (like I've own one of those) but ya, if there 1/2 the weight of the VW bolts I could see it.

[Shadow]

Would you not have a problem passing tech if you run slicks and not having an exposed stud and an open nut?

Agreed, I couldn't see techs passing you with those. (unless they were Porsche owners!)

[GLHNSLHT2]

I hate those stupid bolts to hold on wheels. Got a flat once in my stupid Coupe GT Audi. Damn bolts were too hot to touch and trying to get the wheel up there and a hot bolt was a real PITA.

[Force Fed Mopar]

I don't like the bolts either.

[Vigo]

Yup, i hate em too.

But honestly.. talking about losing weight with bolts is pie in the sky. There's lots of other more time and energy -effective ways to lose weight.

[Shadow]

Yup, i hate em too.

But honestly.. talking about losing weight with bolts is pie in the sky. There's lots of other more time and energy -effective ways to lose weight.

Good to hear, because I'm going to need all the help I can get, and that's going to start with as many suggestions as possible!

Having said that, I'm going to need to pay attention to every once that can easily be subtracted IF I'm going to have any hope of reaching this goal.

Don't forget, I still have to add the rest of my cage and that can't eat into the 200lb's. I'm also Not counting the lighter rear tire/rim combo I will be running as part of the 200lbs as I'm going to need all of these advantages to work together in my favour IF I'm going to have any success at all in pulling this off! :nod:

[Vigo]

Oh, i didnt know you werent counting the wheels towards the 200! Dang, there goes a nice chunk..

What do you think about the mount idea i posted?

[turboshad]

The way I'm looking at it is trying to think of what I thought was difficult to install largely because of its weight. I'll be attacking those before I try to spend countless hours drilling out the centers of bolts. If you were to drill 1/8" holes in all your bolts, you would have to drill out 239.44 feet of material just to save 10lbs. No thanks.

I will be attacking the hood, dash, seats, K-frame, control arms, rear trailing arm, and exhaust. I feel there is well over 200lbs in those items.

[Shadow]

Oh, i didnt know you werent counting the wheels towards the 200! Dang, there goes a nice chunk..

What do you think about the mount idea i posted?

I've deff been thinking about it, would be nice to see some pics!

[Shadow]

The way I'm looking at it is trying to think of what I thought was difficult to install largely because of its weight. I'll be attacking those before I try to spend countless hours drilling out the centers of bolts. If you were to drill 1/8" holes in all your bolts, you would have to drill out 239.44 feet of material just to save 10lbs. No thanks.

I will be attacking the hood, dash, seats, K-frame, control arms, rear trailing arm, and exhaust. I feel there is well over 200lbs in those items.

When I say oz's, I'm talking something that will gain me at least an oz. Drilling out a bolt 1/8 through the center would prob equate to grams. lol Not getting that desperate.......Yet!

[turboshad]

When I say oz's, I'm talking something that will gain me at least an oz. Drilling out a bolt 1/8 through the center would prob equate to grams. lol Not getting that desperate.......Yet!

I guess I was just trying to emphasize that bolts and other small weight items that would even be talked about with the word ounce would be the last on my list when you have so many easier big ticket items that you haven't touched yet. But I know you are just trying to get everything out on the table so I am by no means trying to dampen the discussion. :thumb:

[Force Fed Mopar]

Maybe a tubular rear axle assembly, out of aluminum or chromemoly or something. Would probably save at least 20 lbs. You don't really need the swaybar back there either for drag racing. Not that the stock one weighs much.

[135sohc]

I will be attacking the hood, dash, seats, K-frame, control arms, rear trailing arm, and exhaust. I feel there is well over 200lbs in those items.

There is 200lbs easily in just that stuff. A complete whole P body shell (literally just the unibody shell) is maybe 750-800 lbs at the most. The weight comes from all the stuff bolted onto it.

[Shadow]

Maybe a tubular rear axle assembly, out of aluminum or chromemoly or something. Would probably save at least 20 lbs. You don't really need the swaybar back there either for drag racing. Not that the stock one weighs much.

I believe I can remove 20lbs from the rear trailing axel by just drilling it out. Would be nice to know what the lightest rear tubular axel is.(that someone has made for an L-body)

I believe I can make the rear axel just as light, if not lighter than a tubular unit. Then have a HD bolt on sway bar for the street which will make it stiffer than it ever was.

[Shadow]

I will be attacking the hood, dash, seats, K-frame, control arms, rear trailing arm, and exhaust. I feel there is well over 200lbs in those items.

What are you thinking about doing with your hood? Fiberglass? Or are you talking about lightening the existing one you have?

[turboshad]

What are you thinking about doing with your hood? Fiberglass? Or are you talking about lightening the existing one you have?

The hood and the dash will be made with a carbon fiber honeycomb sandwich construction but you could save a bunch of weight with just fiberglass. I expect the final hood to be about 6 maybe 7 pounds.

[Shadow]

The hood and the dash will be made with a carbon fiber honeycomb sandwich construction but you could save a bunch of weight with just fiberglass. I expect the final hood to be about 6 maybe 7 pounds.

I take it your going to tackle this yourself? (I'm not aware of parts like that being made by anyone else)

[turbovanman²]

I don't like the bolts either.

I hate that setup, :mad:


I take it your going to tackle this yourself? (I'm not aware of parts like that being made by anyone else)

Knowing DJ, he'll be making them himself, :o :nod:

[turboshad]

I take it your going to tackle this yourself? (I'm not aware of parts like that being made by anyone else)



Knowing DJ, he'll be making them himself, :o :nod:

Of course. You can't learn to swim unless you jump into the deepest part of the ocean without a life jacket and with sharks swimming around :D

[turbovanman²]

Of course. You can't learn to swim unless you jump into the deepest part of the ocean without a life jacket and with sharks swimming around :D

Well it also helps that's what you do, :p

[turboshad]

Well it also helps that's what you do, :p

No it's not. I have a desk job, hence my ability to post during the day. True I have access to a metal shop but TIG welding, manual machining, CNC machining and the majority of metal work has been self taught with some guidance. None of that is part of my 8-5 job. It all comes from just trying and learning along the way. Now in regards to CF, nothing except the shops vacuum pump will help me out here at work. :thumb:

The mechanical design, computer modelling and FEA you have seen in my other threads, now that's my job.

[54inches]

Vaccuum forming composite3s is a blast. Messy, but a blast. In college I did some Al. Hexcell, CF and Kevlar layups for a Solar car that we built. Cool sh!t.

Good Luck!

[Shadow]

The hood and the dash will be made with a carbon fiber honeycomb sandwich construction but you could save a bunch of weight with just fiberglass. I expect the final hood to be about 6 maybe 7 pounds.

Correct me if I wrong, using this method allows you to skip having to make a complete mold of the piece that you are making?

eg. Hood. Just use the existing hood for your shape and lay over top?

[54inches]

Correct me if I wrong, using this method allows you to skip having to make a complete mold of the piece that you are making?

eg. Hood. Just use the existing hood for your shape and lay over top?

This is what we did on some parts. You can cover the OEM part in a release agent, etc and then build the negative from that and build the new piece from the negative.

[rx2mazda]

So when are we gonna strart seeing some actual progress? Spring?

[Shadow]

So when are we gonna strart seeing some actual progress? Spring?

:D Was wondering when someone was going to bring that up!

Na, I can't wait till spring this time, not if I'm going to make SDAC! ;)

I should have everything worked out for the brakes in the next couple weeks. Hopefully I'll have all the brake parts here in Jan. and can get things started then.

Meanwhile I'm just making my list, checking it twice, you get the pic.

[rx2mazda]

Cool. I hope that didn't come across wrong, I really was just curious. lol

[Shadow]

Cool. I hope that didn't come across wrong, I really was just curious. lol

Not at all! When I started this in the 'project log" section, I was really wondering if it was appropriate, knowing it would be some time before I started posting pics of progress. :o

[turbovanman²]

No it's not. I have a desk job, hence my ability to post during the day. True I have access to a metal shop but TIG welding, manual machining, CNC machining and the majority of metal work has been self taught with some guidance. None of that is part of my 8-5 job. It all comes from just trying and learning along the way. Now in regards to CF, nothing except the shops vacuum pump will help me out here at work. :thumb:

The mechanical design, computer modelling and FEA you have seen in my other threads, now that's my job.

That's what I meant, lol. ;)

[turboshad]

Correct me if I wrong, using this method allows you to skip having to make a complete mold of the piece that you are making?

eg. Hood. Just use the existing hood for your shape and lay over top?

Like 54 said I will still be making a mold. It will be made from the stock parts with some "modifications" in place. Vacuum bagging compresses the layup "squeezing" the excess resin out resulting in a lighter and stronger piece.

Paul bird has an excellent write up on how he made some doors. It gives some good insight into the process.
http://www.theturboforums.com/PBcarbonfiber.php

[Shadow]

Like 54 said I will still be making a mold. It will be made from the stock parts with some "modifications" in place. Vacuum bagging compresses the layup "squeezing" the excess resin out resulting in a lighter and stronger piece.

Paul bird has an excellent write up on how he made some doors. It gives some good insight into the process.
http://www.theturboforums.com/PBcarbonfiber.php

OK, so same as making it with any other material.

Was thinking because of the honeycomb center you might just lay it over the other part to save a Big step in the process.

The part that scares me most is making the mold! :o

[turboshad]

OK, so same as making it with any other material.

Was thinking because of the honeycomb center you might just lay it over the other part to save a Big step in the process.

The part that scares me most is making the mold! :o

With your autobody skills it would be a snap. Just make the part as perfect as you can with a gloss finish and form some flanges. Put on 4-5 layers of wax and let it dry and then buff it off with a rag, or buff it between layers, I can't remember. Spray some PVE release for extra security and start the layup. Spary or brush on some tooling gel coat, let it tack and then start laying down the glass. Giver 5-6 layers of glass and a good wood frame for something like a hood and you will have yourself a solid mold. Easy peasy. :amen:

[Shadow]

With your autobody skills it would be a snap. Just make the part as perfect as you can with a gloss finish and form some flanges. Put on 4-5 layers of wax and let it dry and then buff it off with a rag, or buff it between layers, I can't remember. Spray some PVE release for extra security and start the layup. Spary or brush on some tooling gel coat, let it tack and then start laying down the glass. Giver 5-6 layers of glass and a good wood frame for something like a hood and you will have yourself a solid mold. Easy peasy. :amen:

Time. Always Time! Never use to scare me, but lately it seems to. Maybe because I feel like I've had none in the last 3 years! lol

Was a good read but I was really looking forward to seeing the whole door get finished.....bummer! :(

[Shadow]

11.2 solid
14.4 vented Lbs was used

Were these both rear rotors? I'm making a log book with all the weight info.

[glhs0426]

The pictures with decimal points I was able to measure with calipers, otherwise, they are as close as I could get with the eyeball and tape measure. I failed to get the measurement you requested. I'll try again when another car is captured during some down time.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa201/johnboy426/LXBrakes006.jpg
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa201/johnboy426/LXBrakes005.jpg
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa201/johnboy426/LXBrakes004.jpg
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa201/johnboy426/LXBrakes001.jpg

Front Caliper
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa201/johnboy426/LXBrakesFrontFace.jpg

Rear Caliper
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa201/johnboy426/LXBrakesRearFace.jpg

Both calipers cleat to retracted piston
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa201/johnboy426/LXBrakesOpenSpace.jpg

Both calipers retracted piston to caliper mount surface
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa201/johnboy426/LXBrakesPistonToMount.jpg

[Reaper1]

Subscribed to follow the madness!! LOL

[Aries_Turbo]

Subscribed to follow the madness!! LOL

me too!

[Shadow]

The pictures with decimal points I was able to measure with calipers, otherwise, they are as close as I could get with the eyeball and tape measure. I failed to get the measurement you requested. I'll try again when another car is captured during some down time.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa201/johnboy426/LXBrakes006.jpg
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa201/johnboy426/LXBrakes005.jpg
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa201/johnboy426/LXBrakes004.jpg
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa201/johnboy426/LXBrakes001.jpg

Front Caliper
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa201/johnboy426/LXBrakesFrontFace.jpg

Rear Caliper
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa201/johnboy426/LXBrakesRearFace.jpg

Both calipers cleat to retracted piston
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa201/johnboy426/LXBrakesOpenSpace.jpg

Both calipers retracted piston to caliper mount surface
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa201/johnboy426/LXBrakesPistonToMount.jpg

That is some crazy detail you went into, Thanks! :thumb:

I'm guessing the mounting brkts are also al? Mounts look pretty wide compared to our stuff, but it seems the GM brake stuff in general uses wider mounts. (5-5 1/2" compared to our 3 3/4")

If you do look at another set, just measure the two mounting bolts on the backside of the mounting brkt. (the one the calipers mount to)

Aside from the pics you posted, that will give me the best idea of wether this could (reasonably) work or not. :)

[Shadow]

DJ, I'm answering your post on the IHRA roll cage info in this thread so I don't go jacking up Warrrens thread with my cage woes.

Was totally unaware that you could use different size tubing for the different pieces. Thought if you were going CM that it would all be 1 5/8 .81.

So, when you order a cage I'm guessing they build the whole thing out of 1 size tubing for simplicity?

I always wondered why ppl were spending so much time bending a cage when they could just order one and weld it in.

Guess it's not such a waiste if you can shave 15-20lbs by using the minimum tubing required. :thumb:

[135sohc]

Were these both rear rotors? I'm making a log book with all the weight info.

Yes. The 89+ style with the internal drum parking brake.

[Reeves]

Thats what i was thinking .
And if your to put a Alu. hub in there and cut the drum to max and just mabe alittle more (this is used for drag and very light street only ) that would realy drop the rotating weight even more.

Back in the day I weighed my stock GLH rear drums bone stock, and then machined them to the max i.d. and machined all the fins off the o.d. and it was substantial weight savings. If some jackazz(s) didn't steal my laptop, I would be able to give you the weight difference. :banghead:

Aluminum hub would be pretty badazz! Hmm.......



Although looking at the two the other day, I wonder if the old style arm isn't better for drag racing, looks like the rear bushing design of the old one would hold the arm from trying to move forward under power better than the newer one.

That's my belief as well.


Run her till she blows.

That's what she said.


The next biggest factor, can I drive this car well enough to achieve the goal, I have to believe I can. I have only become better as the years have gone by and I believe that trend will continue right into the 9's.

I think the biggest BIGGEST factor is going to be traction.



Did you drive one with an actual manual rack for comparo that brought you to this conclusion?

Mine is an actual manual rack (22:1 compared to standard power steering 18:1 and Shelby's 14:1) and I like it well.

I've also driven a standard Neon with the lines looped and it wasn't bad at all on when moving....but it was hell in a tight garage or trying to parrallel park, etc.


In a light car, L Body, I would have to agree with this. While it is slightly harder to turn than an actual manual rack, it's not very noticeable in an L Body. And by retaining the power rack w/o the pump you get to keep the same steering ratio as I'm pretty sure the manual racks turn slower so they're easier to steer.

Correct. Manuals are slightly different ratio.

[Reeves]

DJ, I'm answering your post on the IHRA roll cage info in this thread so I don't go jacking up Warrrens thread with my cage woes.

Was totally unaware that you could use different size tubing for the different pieces. Thought if you were going CM that it would all be 1 5/8 .81.

So, when you order a cage I'm guessing they build the whole thing out of 1 size tubing for simplicity?

I always wondered why ppl were spending so much time bending a cage when they could just order one and weld it in.

Guess it's not such a waiste if you can shave 15-20lbs by using the minimum tubing required. :thumb:

Order a cage and you kind of get what you get. It'll be cut to length and land where it'll land.

I wanted to keep full interior and back seat and also hide my cage as much as possible. Also wanted everything functional like rear seat, door handles, window cranks, etc.

I did not use different O.D. tubings because of the cost. You usually have to buy the tubing in certain lengths (in my instance it was 20 foot sticks) or pay a huge cut charge $$.


I believe I can remove 20lbs from the rear trailing axel by just drilling it out. Would be nice to know what the lightest rear tubular axel is.(that someone has made for an L-body)

I believe I can make the rear axel just as light, if not lighter than a tubular unit. Then have a HD bolt on sway bar for the street which will make it stiffer than it ever was.

Careful with that. It's illegal to have modified/lightened suspension parts per NHRA. Must be aftermarket (like my ReevesRacing rear axle LOL).

[Shadow]

Order a cage and you kind of get what you get. It'll be cut to length and land where it'll land.

Guess I got lucky, or maybe because it was just a bar. There was enough material to do what I wanted with it.




Careful with that. It's illegal to have modified/lightened suspension parts per NHRA. Must be aftermarket (like my ReevesRacing rear axle LOL).

No ----? Damn, do you think they'd know the difference. Ever look at a factory Sunfire rear trailing axel? Completly full of holes, just like what I was going to do to mine!

Do you remember how much weight you saved with the tubular rear axel?

[Reeves]

No ----? Damn, do you think they'd know the difference. Ever look at a factory Sunfire rear trailing axel? Completly full of holes, just like what I was going to do to mine!

Do you remember how much weight you saved with the tubular rear axel?


I know EXACTLY what you are talking about when you say Sunfire rear axle. I always see those things and think DAMM!!! Also some Buick crossover things and some GM minivans had that on their rear axle as well!

Here's a thread on my rear axle: http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38567&highlight=rear+axle

[bakes]

Just acid dip the rear trailing arm and paint semi gloss black who going to know.:eyebrows:

[Shadow]

Just acid dip the rear trailing arm and paint semi gloss black who going to know.:eyebrows:

Don't tempt me! :eyebrows: I was already thinking of blasting it very evenly, then weighing it, then blasting it some more, then weigh.........:p

[Shadow]

Here's a thread on my rear axle: http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38567&highlight=rear+axle

I read through that last week. All it said was 21lbs total weight savings. I was wondering how much of that was the axel? (1/2?)

[turboshad]

DJ, I'm answering your post on the IHRA roll cage info in this thread so I don't go jacking up Warrrens thread with my cage woes.

Was totally unaware that you could use different size tubing for the different pieces. Thought if you were going CM that it would all be 1 5/8 .81.

So, when you order a cage I'm guessing they build the whole thing out of 1 size tubing for simplicity?

I always wondered why ppl were spending so much time bending a cage when they could just order one and weld it in.

Guess it's not such a waiste if you can shave 15-20lbs by using the minimum tubing required. :thumb:

Thanks, I wasn't looking to divert his thread at all. I have no idea what you get when you order one since none that I saw were to my liking anyway. I knew nothing prefabbed would fit where and how I wanted it to so I didn't even consider it. I used all the min. required tubes for mine. For us Canadians, http://www.aircraftspruce.ca/canada.html has the best prices I could find and they will get you any length by the foot.


Careful with that. It's illegal to have modified/lightened suspension parts per NHRA. Must be aftermarket (like my ReevesRacing rear axle LOL).

As we talked Rob, hopefully I can provide a solution to the "branding" so to speak soon in the new year. James, where did you find info on the NHRA rule for that? Are they looking for an SFI apporved piece or does there just need to be proof of appropriate engineering if that?


I read through that last week. All it said was 21lbs total weight savings. I was wondering how much of that was the axel? (1/2?)

Since we are on a similar track with the weight hate I should have some analysis done on the stock, or close to stock, rear axle to know how I can make one lighter and to my desired stiffness this winter. My main concern will be the anti-roll it provides. I love how the car reacts now with the added rear bar so I would like to get that incorperated into the axle if possible. I hope to come up with a close result of the force/deg of torsion in the stock piece to simulate in an aftermarket one.

[turboshad]

Here's a thread on my rear axle: http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38567&highlight=rear+axle

Are you not running a panhard on your rear axle? Or excuse the embarassing question, does an L-body not come with one to start with? How did you find it reacted in the autocross in regards to the rear centering?

[Shadow]

James, where did you find info on the NHRA rule for that? Are they looking for an SFI apporved piece or does there just need to be proof of appropriate engineering if that?

From what I understand Reeves axel was "beer engineered" so I think there's a little leeway. ;)

[Pat]

Are you not running a panhard on your rear axle? Or excuse the embarassing question, does an L-body not come with one to start with? How did you find it reacted in the autocross in regards to the rear centering?

No panhard on the L's. I dont recall off the top of my head exactly how they are stablized side to side, but I'm sure there is no panhard bar or watts link or anything like that. It's part of the bracketry attaching the axle to the body.

[Reeves]

I read through that last week. All it said was 21lbs total weight savings. I was wondering how much of that was the axel? (1/2?)

“Stock drum brakes from a GLH weigh 44 lbs.
My old rear axle was 84 lbs. complete. But this was with lightened drums.
New rear axle is 63 lbs. complete.
I would say it's about 25 lbs. lighter than a bone stock GLH rear.”

I guess I forgot to post how much the new brake set up weighed. And I probably lost that data with the thieves. I can pull a rear brake setup off one side and weigh it no problem. But, it’ll have to wait till spring……cause I hid the OMNI from myself so I could get other things done.


As we talked Rob, hopefully I can provide a solution to the "branding" so to speak soon in the new year. James, where did you find info on the NHRA rule for that? Are they looking for an SFI apporved piece or does there just need to be proof of appropriate engineering if that?

I haven’t found what is considered ‘not stock’ or ‘aftermarket’ yet.

From the Sportsman/Pro/Super Pro section:
SUSPENSION, Stock-Bodied Cars
Full automotive-type suspension mandatory. Minimum one
operating hydraulic shock absorber per wheel. Lightening of stock
components prohibited. Rigid mounted suspensions prohibited. See
General Regulations 3:2, 3:4, 3:5.

3:2 SHOCK ABSORBERS
Each car in competition must be equipped with one operative shock
absorber for each sprung wheel. Shock absorbers may be either
hydraulic or friction type, securely mounted, and in good working
order. See Class Requirements.

3:4 SUSPENSION
All cars must have a full suspension system of the type produced by
an automobile manufacturer (i.e., springs, torsion bars, etc.). Rigidmount
front and/or rear axles are permitted when so indicated in
Class Requirements. All rod ends must be installed with flat washers
of sufficient outside diameter to prevent bearing pullout. Hollow rod
ends are prohibited. Three-wheel vehicles are not eligible for
competition in any class. Radius rods are not required on front
axles that are rigidly mounted 18 inches or less from kingpin axis.
Any front suspension using a beam or tubular axle must have radius
rods attached to frame.

3:5 TRACTION BAR ROD ENDS
Minimum requirement for rod ends on the front of all ladder-type
traction bars is 3/4-inch steel. A rod end strap to keep ladder bar
secured in event of rod end failure mandatory in all classes. All
traction devices that are not attached at front (i.e., slapper bars,
etc.) must have a U-bolt or strap to prevent them from coming in
contact with track.



Are you not running a panhard on your rear axle? Or excuse the embarassing question, does an L-body not come with one to start with? How did you find it reacted in the autocross in regards to the rear centering?

L-body’s don’t come with a panhard bar. LOL. I guess that’s a ‘luxury’ item.
In no way am I certified to speak about handling in an autocross….as I’ve only ever ran 2 of them in my life, but I think this video shows you how the rear reacts (for now).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0w2smK1M2A&feature=related

and


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE59rqibas4

[turboshad]

From the Sportsman/Pro/Super Pro section:
SUSPENSION, Stock-Bodied Cars
Full automotive-type suspension mandatory. Minimum one
operating hydraulic shock absorber per wheel. Lightening of stock
components prohibited. Rigid mounted suspensions prohibited. See
General Regulations 3:2, 3:4, 3:5.


This is the only one that seems to apply and all I get is you can't lighten a stock piece which would include putting holes in a factory axle. The reasoning would be that the OEM engineered the piece to handle the loads seen with an acceptable safety factor. Without this rule your farmer Joe Blow would be sure to take out so much steel there would be no integrity left. I would see a lighter after market piece being different from lightening of stock components as it is a whole different piece. But we all know it ends up in the discretion of the power tripper that is inspecting your car.

When I first saw your axle, before I noticed the lack of panhard, I thought the members from the pivot to the axle were pretty beefy. Not having a panhard bar it makes sense as this is what gives it lateral stiffness. My guess would be you could get a lighter setup by switching to a panhard and making those members smaller as they would no longer have to take any lateral loading. If you look at the other bodies that member is just a flat piece of metal with no strength in the lateral direction. The panhard will take those forces as compression or tension which is a much stronger direction for a tube then bending. This means you can get away with substantially less material. On my car I have a 1"x.065 CM tube taking the load.

In your videos it looks like you have too much rear anti-roll which would mean your rear axle could be made lighter and still keep your suspension balance. If your were a serious autocrosser you might go the opposite way and add more front anti-roll to balance it out but that would add more weight and I think it is safe to say you take drag racing more seriously. :D

[Reeves]

In your videos it looks like you have too much rear anti-roll which would mean your rear axle could be made lighter and still keep your suspension balance. If your were a serious autocrosser you might go the opposite way and add more front anti-roll to balance it out but that would add more weight and I think it is safe to say you take drag racing more seriously. :D

What front anti-roll?

:eyebrows:
:confused:

[turboshad]

What front anti-roll?

:eyebrows:
:confused:

LOL, no wonder you spun out. :p