code 13 replaced MAP - won't run now.

[gears351]

Ok, I've been chasing gremlins down from this engine swap for 3 months now. I've got a code 13 and the MAP has perfect vac going to it. So I break down and buy a new map sensor - 89 Daytona 2.5 T2 Carquest AS8.

I plug it in and fire it up..... Truck won't run! stumbles, coughs dies, foot on the gas can't keep it running.

So I pull it back out and put the old one back in - runs "perfect" but still throws a code 13.

CEL stays on, anyone got any ideas?

[cordes]

Have you tried bypassing the baro read solenoid?

[DevoBuzz]

When you say perfect vac - is the line big enouigh without any restrictions? I had a code 13 and turned out that the vacuum T was one of those for multiple size hoses. I put a good size T in and it went away.

[shelbymonster]

try direct vac from intake

[gears351]

direct vac from manifold 3/8" (or is it 10mm) barb sticking up out of the manifold behind the valve cover. I am running it into one of those universal sized stepped Ts, one branch goes to a Y with the BOV and the FP Regulator and the other Ys to the BarioSolenoid & Wastegate.

I bypassed the solenoid with no difference in running & the code stays (as well as the CEL staying on).

I've got Vac through the solenoid but haven't put a gauge on it. Guess I'll get some numbers that way tomorrow.

Vac on the boost gauge (tee-d from the power booster) reads 20 inHg at idle, boost peaked at 14 but now it's cutting out around 7.

Thanks for the ideas guys

[onerippinturbo2]

the new sensor you hgot from cq was for a nonturbo.

[sdac guy]

Code 13 says that the MAP is not seeing any difference in intake manifold pressure during engine cranking prior to startup. It must see a voltage difference of at least .04 volt during cranking, if not it sets code 13.

And, whether you run the MAP vacuum line through the baro solenoid or not, it should never be "teed" with ANY other with any other line using vacuum/boost.

Code 13 is almost always a vacuum line problem, rarely a MAP sensor problem. There are two other codes the MAP can throw depending on engine running conditions. Code 14 shows that the MAP sensor voltage is out of limits and usually indicates a bad sensor. Code 45 indicates an "overboost" situation where boost has gone beyond the measuring limits of the MAP sensor.

Barry

[5sp. mini]

truck or do you mean van?

[DevoBuzz]

Yes the universal T! That is the same issue I had. If you dont cut off the smaller end of the universal T it will be a restriction. Barry is right - you should setup you vacuum lines correctly to get the best signal - no T's.

[Turbodave]

Also check for a leaky fuel pressure regulator, if it's leaking any fuel over into the vacuum line it will cause a code 13, I've had 3 or 4 of these happen on various cars over the years.

[gears351]

Barry, can you suggest where I can find an appropriate vac diagram?

This is an 89 Daytona 2.5 turbo (mitsu) that I swapped into a 1990 Dakota. I've kept stock Daytona injectors, SMEC, FP, and accompanying sensors, I've added an air charge sensor and an intercooler.

Based on all the research (minimopar, allpar etc.) I've run a universal T off the large port of the intake manifold (the barb that sticks almost straight up). One end of the T splits to the pressure regulator & BOV, the other goes to the Bario solenoid/map and Ys off to the wastegate.

The only thing not hooked up is the wastegate solenoid and the egr solenoid (no egr).

I've capped the 2 vac ports (manifold & ported) at the top of the TB.


Oh yeah, as of today I can no longer go over 5 psi of boost.... does the SMEC limit revs if there's a bad map signal? I've read that if the MAP is out of range then the motor becomes limited beyond 22degrees of tps. I wasn't sure if this was a rev limit or the wastegate via SMEC shutdown.

[MopàrBCN]

If the map doesn't see a difference between Pressure/Vacuum the smec goes into emergency mode. However the fact that you only see about 5psi of boost is an indication that you messed up your vac rooting.

Go back to square 1.

Put all the lines in place as they have to be. Pay attention to the way you connect the boost solenoid.

Listen to Barry. Code 13 is the most common one I've ever had. And it was ALWAYS or a broken vac line, or wrongly routed one or the baro solenoid staying open (it usually only opens for a split moment).

[MopàrBCN]

Another thing about codes in general: They almost never point to a detective sensor but almost always to the sensor who detected an abnormality. So you always have to "work back" from the code definition (in your case "Map Sensor doesn't see a difference in a periode of time") to the possible causes of this problem (in your case "vacuum/pressure get's lost on the way to the map")

[gears351]

I put this thing together 4 months / 1000 miles ago, it's been hitting 14psi of boost and now it won't go to 5. I have NOT changed any vac routing or anything.... it just won't go beyond 5 now. (maybe I need to check that stupid plastic bosch BOV) I'm worried I have a damaged turbo but am also concerned the SMEC could be bad... Both are used/junkyard units of unknown quantity. The turbo had no end play or runout but after about 500 miles started making a scraping noise - I'm figuring on getting a new one from TurbosUnleashed as Chris seems like a good guy to work with but I don't want to do that while I still have other issues (ie, SMEC or MAP or vac line routing).

[sdac guy]

For the vacuum diagram, the FSM (factory service manual) would have it, and maybe a Chiltons or other fix-it book, I don't know. There may even be one posted online somewhere, but I don't know about that either. I don't have an 89 manual so I can't scan/post one.

Code 13 will cause the car to go into "limp in" mode where boost and rpm are limited. That is likely the cause of the low max boost you are seeing.

My suggestion would be to buy a new piece of the hard vacuum line and run it directly from a port on the intake manifold to your MAP sensor. If that clears the problem, then you can be certain it is vacuum related.

I have seen cases where the older lines get tiny cracks or holes in them that can barely be seen. Do not use rubber vacuum line for the MAP. It is okay to use an inch or two to aid connecting, but don't use much more than that.

Once the problem is solved, if you want to plumb the baro solenoid back into the MAP loop (as it should be), the MAP sensor line would go on the middle port on the solenoid and vacuum from the intake manifold on the lower port. The top port should be left open so that normal atmospheric pressure can be read by the MAP (the solenoid switches between the bottom and top port connection to the middle port).

Barry

[RoadWarrior222]

Another thing about codes in general: They almost never point to a detective sensor but almost always to the sensor who detected an abnormality. So you always have to "work back" from the code definition (in your case "Map Sensor doesn't see a difference in a periode of time") to the possible causes of this problem (in your case "vacuum/pressure get's lost on the way to the map")

+1, just ONE of the options is that that particular sensor is bad/flaky, but it could also be telling the truth, which means a problem elsewhere in the systems that that sensor monitors.

[gears351]

Ok, my 4 vac gauges and I have been arguing in the driveway for the past half hour...

did you know if the map loses vac while idling it'll kill the motor ;)

The T off the manifold vac was only letting 17 inHg to the Bario/map. I had a strong 20 at the small port on the tb.

So now I've got a vac line going from the tb (straight manifold vac, NOT ported) to the bario/map..... light's still on, still getting code 13.

What's wrong with running rubber vac line (other than having it blown off under high boost)?

[RoadWarrior222]

It sucks flat in vacuum. If not now, when the engine bay warms up.

Edit: I get pissed off with trying to find "PCV" hose coz of that issue, all what the parts stores offer seems to suck flat eventually.

[sdac guy]

Ok, my 4 vac gauges and I have been arguing in the driveway for the past half hour...

did you know if the map loses vac while idling it'll kill the motor ;)

The T off the manifold vac was only letting 17 inHg to the Bario/map. I had a strong 20 at the small port on the tb.

So now I've got a vac line going from the tb (straight manifold vac, NOT ported) to the bario/map..... light's still on, still getting code 13.

What's wrong with running rubber vac line (other than having it blown off under high boost)?You MUST use a vacuum source direct from the manifold. That is where slight vacuum changes can be seen by the MAP. Using vac off the TB is not a reliable source (especially during engine cranking which is when the code 13 is occurring).

Rubber hose shrinks and swells with vac & boost. Even if only slightly. If used for a MAP line, it can produce an inaccurate reading (again even if only slightly so).

Note that the code 13 is caused because a difference of at least .04 volt is not seen during cranking/start. That is a very small difference it is looking for, so having a good line from the manifold to the MAP is an absolute must.

Until you have that condition met, there is no point in looking anywhere else.

Readings you get while idling have no bearing on this problem. The code is set while cranking/start.

Barry

[gears351]

Got it, thanks for the clarification Barry. I'll run some hard line from the manifold to the bario/map.

Anyone know a source for that hard line?

[cordes]

Got it, thanks for the clarification Barry. I'll run some hard line from the manifold to the bario/map.

Anyone know a source for that hard line?

There is a ton of it in your local junk yard. That's your best bet for cheap and readily available line IMO.

[sdac guy]

Most auto parts stores sell short lengths of it fairly cheap also. Comes pre-packaged so it hangs on a rack.

BTW, connect the MAP directly to the intake manifold port. That way if there is a problem with the baro/MAP solenoid it will not be in the circuit. You need to determine if the problem is in the vacuum lines / setup or the MAP itself.

Also, be sure when starting the car you do not depress the gas pedal. Accelerator should not be touched until after car starts.

Start the car a couple times before checking if the code 13 is cleared.

Barry

[gears351]

The code will reset itself without unhooking the battery right? I'm off to pick up some line and bypass the solenoid tomorrow.

[cordes]

The code will reset itself without unhooking the battery right? I'm off to pick up some line and bypass the solenoid tomorrow.

I thought you already bypassed it?

[sdac guy]

The code will reset itself without unhooking the battery right? I'm off to pick up some line and bypass the solenoid tomorrow.Yes. Once the condition causing the code 13 is gone, it should clear on the next start (or so the manual tells me).


I thought you already bypassed it? I thought that too from his first post (or thereabouts) but from the latest ones it sounds like he didn't.

Start from the simplest config and build from there .... ;)

Barry

[gears351]

I did bypass it. saw no change, so re-hooked it back up. So now I've got to re-bypass, or is that re-dis-connect, or re-un-reroute?

In any case I've got the hard line (3.9mm from Advance) & connectors. Is this where those "do it yourself - vac manifolds (aluminum tube with brass barbs tapped into it) " come into play?

[cordes]

I did bypass it. saw no change, so re-hooked it back up. So now I've got to re-bypass, or is that re-dis-connect, or re-un-reroute?

In any case I've got the hard line (3.9mm from Advance) & connectors. Is this where those "do it yourself - vac manifolds (aluminum tube with brass barbs tapped into it) " come into play?

I would be interested in a pic of said manifold. I do think a manifold of some sort is a great idea unless you are going for a factory correct look.

[gears351]

TurbosUnleashed has a vac block:

http://74.55.62.69/~turbosun/shop/index.php?cPath=136&osCsid=a6f8e0917a733b2206fd25478986a909

I know I saw a diy write up on one of the sites I frequent, but dang if I can find it now. It was very similar to the TU offering.

I've got the MAP line bypassing the solenoid 12 starts so far and the light's still on.

I've got to do the KOEO check with a DVOM & vac pump to check my readings.... anyone remember what those readings should be?

[sdac guy]

I've got the MAP line bypassing the solenoid 12 starts so far and the light's still on.And it is connected directly to the intake manifold, not the throttle body, right?

Did you check the codes lately to see if there are any others that may cause the pl lamp to be on?

I guess it could be the MAP, but it could also be the SMEC (really long shot, though).

Barry

[gears351]

Hard line, straight off the manifold (the 3/8" nipple sticking up off the manifold behind the valve cover) no vac leaks.

Getting codes 13, 31, 55.

No EGR so I don't have a solenoid. That doesn't keep the light on anyhow.

Anyone got any other ideas? I've pm'd several people local to Akron OH with no replies to see if my SMEC does the same in their cars.....



Thanks.

[TopDollar69]

Did you ever get this figured out?

[gears351]

Nope- blew the headgasket.

I'm thinking the SMEC is toast and I'm going to order a custom from boostbutton (after the motor's back together).

[TopDollar69]

I was getting a code 13 and found I had a small chunk of ice in the vacuum line going to the baro solonoid.