So there I was thinking....

[shadow88]

What our heavily boosted engines need in many cases is a higher octane fuel, more fuel and cooler intake charge. Agreed?

Has anyone dabbled in liquid propane injection? It's WAY cheaper than nitrous to refill, while being able to be injected in a similar way? Octane rating of 114 or something like that? It is a fuel. In liquid form it will cool the intake charge.

There's gotta be some reason nobody has tried it before. Please discuss.

[RoadWarrior222]

You're only fuel limited by your injectors and tuning, you can always find a way to hose more in, even if people b!tch about it, they just don't want to mess with it for whatever reason.

Air however, is difficult to get in, hence stupidly complicated Rube Goldberg type devices such as turbochargers come to exist. Nitrous oxide is an oxidiser and is liquid air, so is rather useful, when a motors breathing has hit it's limitations.

It's possible propane could be useful for charge cooling, if it doesn't expand rapidly and displace needed air, when a more "compact" fuel could be shoved in there instead.

[bakes]

Turbo sled guys are moving to barbecue fuel with wicked results but it is there only fuel!!!

[shackwrrr]

Ive always thought of building a turbo CNG drag car. CNG has a pretty high auto ignition temp, about double what gas is. It also has about 130 octane and after you buy the compressor station you have about 40 cents a GGE (gallon gas equivalent). Propane would be the next choice at 112 octane but the price is about the same as unleaded.

[bakes]

I also dont know how legal it is at the track . Never seen it use except in deisels.

[RoadWarrior222]

Turbo sled guys are moving to barbecue fuel with wicked results but it is there only fuel!!!

More BTUs and HP with less boost I suspect.... it's kerosene, very low octane...

[RoadWarrior222]

OTOH, I know with CNG, even with timing adjustments you don't get near the power you get out of gasoline. I believe this is due to taking up much more room, necessitating very high compression ratios.

BTW remember octane = less BTUs, = less power per pound.

[turbovanman²]

Ive always thought of building a turbo CNG drag car. CNG has a pretty high auto ignition temp, about double what gas is. It also has about 130 octane and after you buy the compressor station you have about 40 cents a GGE (gallon gas equivalent). Propane would be the next choice at 112 octane but the price is about the same as unleaded.

Very true, only draw back is the weight and size of the tanks and the fact you use like what, 3 times more propane than gas?


I also dont know how legal it is at the track . Never seen it use except in deisels.

It should be, if certified for street use it should be ok for the track, but then, they do have some funny rules, :o

[shackwrrr]

OTOH, I know with CNG, even with timing adjustments you don't get near the power you get out of gasoline. I believe this is due to taking up much more room, necessitating very high compression ratios.

BTW remember octane = less BTUs, = less power per pound.

Its the same Idea with methanol, ethanol, or any other "gourmet" fuels. You just have to use more but at 40-70 cents for a gge thats easily overcome. You also have to think about the unit of measure, Gallon of Gas Equivalent, meaning the amount of cng needed to burn to produce the same power as gasoline so its already factored in. And with all the octane you can crank up the timing too, We have a 5.9 cummins at the school that has no other mods other than having spark plugs and a special fuel rail that runs cng with high compression and turbo still. Sounds weird.

[shackwrrr]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent

[Juggy]

yeah the diesels guys r using it with great success, ive read some articles where a few trucks almost double hp/tq numbers.

but diesel is a whole different ball game and because propane IS a fuel, they will get increased boost and power because thats how they operate

[turbovanman²]

Its the same Idea with methanol, ethanol, or any other "gourmet" fuels. You just have to use more but at 40-70 cents for a gge thats easily overcome. You also have to think about the unit of measure, Gallon of Gas Equivalent, meaning the amount of cng needed to burn to produce the same power as gasoline so its already factored in. And with all the octane you can crank up the timing too, We have a 5.9 cummins at the school that has no other mods other than having spark plugs and a special fuel rail that runs cng with high compression and turbo still. Sounds weird.

The guy that own's Aurora has flown all over the world converting diesel bus's etc to run on Propane.

[zin]

What our heavily boosted engines need in many cases is a higher octane fuel, more fuel and cooler intake charge. Agreed?

Has anyone dabbled in liquid propane injection? It's WAY cheaper than nitrous to refill, while being able to be injected in a similar way? Octane rating of 114 or something like that? It is a fuel. In liquid form it will cool the intake charge.

There's gotta be some reason nobody has tried it before. Please discuss.

BINGO!!*

Propane is a fantastic fuel, and makes the most sense in regards to "alternate" fuels, but doesn't further various leftist agendas so it remains relegated to minority status. I could go on, but that's not what this thread is about...

Propane is very close to gasoline in terms of BTU or energy density, about 91.5K vs. 123K for gas... Propane has an octane rating of about 110, depending on the quality. Most BBQs use LPG, which isn't really propane, but a mix of all the flammable gases left over in the refining process (butane, etc). But for our purposes, LPG is fine...

Now for the asterisk part:

Propane if used as a liquid will add some cooling, but the down side to it is that it expands fairly dramatically, taking up valuable real estate in your intake/runners that could be occupied by much more compact fuels. This is ok at lower levels, but gets you to a point of diminishing returns at moderate to high levels.

The other issue is injection/metering. I built systems to supplement nitrous systems with great results, most notably on Jim Giardina's GTS back in 97ish (10.5s stock, slicks & nitrous), as well as a few LS Camaros. A NOS Cheater fuel solenoid will open over 200PSI, (LPG is about 150PSI @ 80*F), so there's your valve, then you need a simple injector, just something to direct the flow and hold the metering orifice. N/S's 23503 gets that done. Now for the more tricky part... At 150PSI-ish, it is difficult to hold back unneeded flow. Nowadays NOS has built some exceedingly small funnel style jets, down to .008"! Back when I was actively tuning these, the smallest I had to work with was a .014"!

Well, before I go on and on, giving away all my secrets, I'll leave it at that for now...

Mike

[zin]

yeah the diesels guys r using it with great success, ive read some articles where a few trucks almost double hp/tq numbers.

but diesel is a whole different ball game and because propane IS a fuel, they will get increased boost and power because thats how they operate

Propane in a diesel is a bit more dangerous than adding nitrous... Nitrous is best though of as concentrated air, while propane is fuel...

Propane adds power by filling in the gaps between diesel droplets, greatly increasing the efficiency of the burn, as well as adding more BTU/energy.

The danger comes when you get a bit greedy. If you add enough propane, you can reach it's lean limit. The leanest mix that will still burn, which is quite a bit leaner than gas or diesel, and that is where you blow the hell out of stuff!

Just about the only way to kill a diesel (other than just overpowering the parts) is to preignite. Impossible on a "normal" diesel unless the injector timing is way off as there is no fuel to burn until it injects it...

BUT, if you put propane into the air intake, it IS there and if there is enough of it, BOOM... party is over!

Mike

[shackwrrr]

Propane is very close to gasoline in terms of BTU or energy density, about 91.5K vs. 123K for gas... Propane has an octane rating of about 110, depending on the quality. Most BBQs use LPG, which isn't really propane, but a mix of all the flammable gases left over in the refining process (butane, etc). But for our purposes, LPG is fine...

All the propane used for car fuel and/or BBQ fuel is HD5 propane, minimum 90% propane 5% propylene then the rest is butane and etc including the mercaptain for safety.

But you are in the good ol' state of cali so you have HD10 which has 10% propylene and is not suitable for an engine fuel because propylene can gum up the engine(basically its plastic).

So you have the right Idea but mis-quoted the types and your statement only applies to California.

LPG is propane just compressed to a liquid, which at room temp is about 120 psi. Its still all C3H8

[RoadWarrior222]

Propane is a fantastic fuel, and makes the most sense in regards to "alternate" fuels, but doesn't further various leftist agendas so it remains relegated to minority status. I could go on, but that's not what this thread is about...

The problem with propane as a mass use fuel is that it is only available as waste/side product from natural gas or petroleum operations. There just ain't that much of it. It is therefore only promoted for niche or minority uses, jut to use up the "waste". It's better than venting it to atmosphere, but what if we talk it up as the fuel of the future, make everybody use it? Then we're burning off natural gas and pouring away oil just to get at the small percentage propane in it... does not compute.

[shadow88]

Thank you for your inputs so far!

So let's say I can get ahold of a liquid propane tank (forklift tank) that looks like a keg of beer, a ball valve and a small "dry" nitrous jet or something that works like it and is adjustable to very tiny jets. That's pretty much what's needed to proceed with the first test?

I was told by another very smart person (lots of them here too!) to not count on the propane as a fuel, as so much more of it is required to produce the same power, it should work well as a chemicooler and the increased octane is a bonus too.

I'm not trying to get rid of my pretty red nitrous tank in favour of this, but I'm just wondering how much propane could help a boosted engine out?

[BadAssPerformance]

Interesting, I've only seen it used as a fuel, not as a cooler...

[shackwrrr]

keep in mind that the expansion rate for propane is 270:1.

[shadow88]

keep in mind that the expansion rate for propane is 270:1.

So it will displace a large quantity of the air charge....hmmm. Bad news.

[RoadWarrior222]

Unless you get a mitsu 2.6 and figure out how to shoot it in the jet valve after the intake has closed.

[shackwrrr]

Yea, dont think is going to happen for cooling. Even the diesel injection setups only use the vapor.

[contraption22]

Before comparing Nitrous Oxide to Propane, remember that N2O is not a fuel. Propane is.
N2O is only an oxidizer that allows more fuel to be burned.

To simplify, adding propane to an engine would be just like adding fuel.
Spraying nitrous is like artificially adding more "air" to the mixture.

[shadow88]

Before comparing Nitrous Oxide to Propane, remember that N2O is not a fuel. Propane is.
N2O is only an oxidizer that allows more fuel to be burned.

To simplify, adding propane to an engine would be just like adding fuel.
Spraying nitrous is like artificially adding more "air" to the mixture.

I understand. I was just throwing out an idea to hopefully lower charge temps, add fuel and increase octane on the cheap

[shackwrrr]

Now something that would be very interesting. Direct injected turbo propane engine. The engine can gulp in heaps of air on the intake stroke and then after the intake valve is closed spritz in a little liquid propane and you could put way more air/fuel mix in that cylinder than should be in there. And don't forget high compression too because there wouldn't be any fuel in the cylinder until its needed so detonation would not be a problem. And you could go all the way from geo power levels to crazy power on demand. Couple that with hybrid type stops and starts and electric only city driving along with regen braking you could have a 10 second car that gets 80mpg on the way to the track.

[RoadWarrior222]

Nice, now build a retrofit kit that screws into spark plug holes with a catalytic ignition system.

[shadow88]

Now something that would be very interesting. Direct injected turbo propane engine. The engine can gulp in heaps of air on the intake stroke and then after the intake valve is closed spritz in a little liquid propane and you could put way more air/fuel mix in that cylinder than should be in there. And don't forget high compression too because there wouldn't be any fuel in the cylinder until its needed so detonation would not be a problem. And you could go all the way from geo power levels to crazy power on demand. Couple that with hybrid type stops and starts and electric only city driving along with regen braking you could have a 10 second car that gets 80mpg on the way to the track.

Very different story, yet equally interesting.

I think injecting propane as you would a nitrous set-up is pretty dead based on the expansion rate. Maybe, if I find the time, I might give it a prototype try and see what happens (with a different car)

[zin]

Very different story, yet equally interesting.

I think injecting propane as you would a nitrous set-up is pretty dead based on the expansion rate. Maybe, if I find the time, I might give it a prototype try and see what happens (with a different car)

Don't let the expansion thing discourage you too much! I and other customers have done it with great results on N/A cars, and it would probably work better with a turbo to cram it in there. With the LS-1 Camaros we were doing we were fine up to about 200HP, then things seemed to get a bit "constipated", headers helped, but the stock intake/cam seemed to be where the real blockage was... Didn't pursue it as the cars were already too fast for the track/rules so it was kind of a moot point...

Mike

[shadow88]

If I find a nice, cheap nitrous nozzle for a dry system cheap, I'll probably give it a try. Probably with a N/A engine first and all manual controls just to watch the scan tool readings. I should see intake temp sensor readings change, probably less knock detection, and Maybe a reduction in injector pulsewidth? Then again, I shouldn't rely on propane as a fuel. Once at WOT, the ECM injects a set amount or fuel anyways, so I may not be able to varify this without a wide band.

I would assume the nozzle should be mounted as close to the throttle body as possible?

[Under pressure]

Fwiw , I run a huge centri supercharger on my 4.6 dohc v8 and don't use an intercooler. I run 50/50 methanol and water. I've lowered the intake temp about 40 deg and add octane and Added some extra fuel yet the intake charge is not flammable. Keep in mind efi intakes are really only designed to flow air not like a carburetor intake. Same with wet flow nitrous on efi engines , the intake turns into a bomb with a backfire caused by a misfire. Be careful.

[zin]

If I find a nice, cheap nitrous nozzle for a dry system cheap, I'll probably give it a try. Probably with a N/A engine first and all manual controls just to watch the scan tool readings. I should see intake temp sensor readings change, probably less knock detection, and Maybe a reduction in injector pulsewidth? Then again, I shouldn't rely on propane as a fuel. Once at WOT, the ECM injects a set amount or fuel anyways, so I may not be able to varify this without a wide band.

I would assume the nozzle should be mounted as close to the throttle body as possible?

I want to be sure I'm on track with you... Are you talking about supplemental propane for nitrous or just higher boost? Either way, being a gas, propane can be injected anywhere you like with even distribution, but I suspect you're concern is the expansion... Well, unless you are doing port injection (very doable, though tricky to jet..), we will need to be probably 6-8inches away, it needs a bit of time to flash/mix with the air so we can get even distribution, much closer and it's inertia may carry it past where it should go...

Without a wide-band it may be difficult to quantify what is happening, or rather to what degree, you'll definitely be able to make it run rich, but how much? Air temp may drop a little, if the ECU picks up on that, it may add timing... It would only really show up under conditions that would normally make the engine ping, otherwise it's kind of like putting 94 octane in a car that only needs 87... might not be a step up at all...

As for cheap nozzles, we sell them for around $10.00, so you should be able to find one for about that, OR, you can cap one side of a Fogger nozzle (fuel ironically), and just use the one side as a dry nozzle...

Mike

[ShadowBrad]

I seem to remember an article(I can't find it now) about a propane powered show/test car. It had an LS engine in it and started life running on gaseous propane making great power. Then they changed the injection system over to a liquid/semi-liquid injection system and picked up some significant power just by changing the injection system. They said the HP increase was due to the cooling of the incoming air, and also due to the fact that the propane in gaseous form took up a lot of volume, where as the liquid took up much less volume that could then be occupied by air. I also believe that when they were using the liquid system that they placed the injectors as close to the head as possible and had them injecting directly into the open intake valve so that as much as possible of the liquid-gas expansion process could take place inside the cylinder and displace as little air as possible. I'll keep looking for this article as I am probably incorrect about some of this, to which I apologize.

I do have these interesting links for you though:
Chip Foose 1,000HP Propane Chevelle (http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/31/sema-2007-1-000-hp-propane-chevelle-by-mothers/)

Prins Alt. Fuel Systems (http://www.prinsautogas.com/en/)
Prins is the company that provided the injectors and I think most of the fuel injection system for the above Chevelle. They have two really nice injection systems. Their VSI(Vapor Sequential Injection), the system used on the Chevelle. And they also have what they call, Direct Liqui Max, which is a direct injection system for use on the newer gasoline DI engines. Really neat stuff.

Propane Performance Industries (http://www.ppidts.com/propanep/about-conformable-tanks.html)
This company was also involved with the fuel system for the Chevelle. They make custom aluminum propane tanks for cars.

[shackwrrr]

I seem to remember an article(I can't find it now) about a propane powered show/test car. It had an LS engine in it and started life running on gaseous propane making great power. Then they changed the injection system over to a liquid/semi-liquid injection system and picked up some significant power just by changing the injection system. They said the HP increase was due to the cooling of the incoming air, and also due to the fact that the propane in gaseous form took up a lot of volume, where as the liquid took up much less volume that could then be occupied by air. I also believe that when they were using the liquid system that they placed the injectors as close to the head as possible and had them injecting directly into the open intake valve so that as much as possible of the liquid-gas expansion process could take place inside the cylinder and displace as little air as possible. I'll keep looking for this article as I am probably incorrect about some of this, to which I apologize.

I do have these interesting links for you though:
Chip Foose 1,000HP Propane Chevelle (http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/31/sema-2007-1-000-hp-propane-chevelle-by-mothers/)

Prins Alt. Fuel Systems (http://www.prinsautogas.com/en/)
Prins is the company that provided the injectors and I think most of the fuel injection system for the above Chevelle. They have two really nice injection systems. Their VSI(Vapor Sequential Injection), the system used on the Chevelle. And they also have what they call, Direct Liqui Max, which is a direct injection system for use on the newer gasoline DI engines. Really neat stuff.

Propane Performance Industries (http://www.ppidts.com/propanep/about-conformable-tanks.html)
This company was also involved with the fuel system for the Chevelle. They make custom aluminum propane tanks for cars.

Nice links, Those PPI tanks are awesome