Turbonator Tuners Guide - Draft

[ShelGame]

I'm starting to write a Tuners Guide for the Turbonator cals. It's long overdue, I know, and the recent thread about MS made me realize that we really need a guide.

Please post feedback/questions on this guide as I post updates. I want it to be as easy to understand as possible - but I also want ot answer the basic question people may have when starting to tune with these cals. I'll publish the final guide when I get at least the main sections completed.

Here's where I'll keep the draft of the Turbonator Tuners Guide:

[cordes]

That's great Rob. I know most of that is pretty deep for me, so we may need Bucar to make some annotations in the margins.

[zin]

This is definitely a good idea, and a good start. I would suggest explaining the more obtuse stuff a bit more...

Mike

[turbovanman²]

Very cool, thanks.

[shackwrrr]

That is nice info to know but my idea of a "guide" is one that anyone can understand. More like, If you are lean at WOT, tune this table. If you are lean at part throttle, Tune this table. On the premise that that you should not tune anything untill it is fully warmed up you shouldnt need to do a whole lot of messing with the warmup stuff since you are going to mess with base fuel numbers but the engine still warms up at the same rate.

Isnt the idea basically pumping efficiency is base fuel and then you have idle/mid/WOT tables to fine tune?

[zin]

On the premise that that you should not tune anything untill it is fully warmed up you shouldnt need to do a whole lot of messing with the warmup stuff since you are going to mess with base fuel numbers but the engine still warms up at the same rate.

I'll agree that tuning should be done on a fully warmed-up engine, but there will be times you'll want to adjust the warm-up parameters, such as when a long duration cam is used, the choppy idle would mess with the ECU due to the constant, large swings in vacuum.

On concept I agree, write for the uneducated/uninitiated.

Mike

[ShelGame]

That is nice info to know but my idea of a "guide" is one that anyone can understand. More like, If you are lean at WOT, tune this table. If you are lean at part throttle, Tune this table. On the premise that that you should not tune anything untill it is fully warmed up you shouldnt need to do a whole lot of messing with the warmup stuff since you are going to mess with base fuel numbers but the engine still warms up at the same rate.

Isnt the idea basically pumping efficiency is base fuel and then you have idle/mid/WOT tables to fine tune?

I just don't want to over-simplify and make the info mis-leading. I'm updating the fuel section now, added a chart, and I'm showing how exactly the cold start and cold load factors work. I guess for pure WOT, I can take them out and put them in a different section...

[ShelGame]

OK, I updated the WOT section to be a little more simple. It's now for normal-operating temperature only. I'll move the A,B,C table explanation to a cold-enrichment section.

Is the WOT section easier to understand now?

[ShelGame]

Isnt the idea basically pumping efficiency is base fuel and then you have idle/mid/WOT tables to fine tune?

Actually, no. There are 3 main 'ideal' PW tables. Which table is used is decided by throttle position - there is a table each for idle, part throttle, and wide-open throttle. The Pumping Efficiency table is a fraction of the 'ideal' fuel vs. RPM. Since the engine never flows it's full potential, you need to reduce the 'ideal' PW by this amount.

[risen]

OK, I updated the WOT section to be a little more simple. It's now for normal-operating temperature only. I'll move the A,B,C table explanation to a cold-enrichment section.

Is the WOT section easier to understand now?

I'm good with either explanation. Looking at a page full of calculations is likely to scare off those who are just beginning. Personally I <3 math, so the old one was just fine by me but I do hear what the others are saying.

Some of the formulas are stashed in the .tbl files or in the code , but having them compiled (<- :) ) in one place would be nice too. See what you got yourself into, now you've got to please everyone ;)

[ShelGame]

See what you got yourself into, now you've got to please everyone ;)

Ha! Always, lol.

I want to make it as easy to understand as possible. But, again, I don't want to mislead. Some things about the Chrysler code just are NOT easy to understand, and I can't make it easy. But, normal operating temperature WOT operation is pretty easy to understand. That's why I started there.

I was just looking thru the MS tuning guide stuff to compare. It's not easy to understand, either, if you ask me.

[turbovanman²]

Rob, I played with Curve B for my cold start issues due to the lumpy cams, Brian said to adjust this and it worked, I had to really drag it down otherwise it just chugged, hasn't seemed to affect anything else, including the WOT fueling.



That is nice info to know but my idea of a "guide" is one that anyone can understand. More like, If you are lean at WOT, tune this table. If you are lean at part throttle, Tune this table. On the premise that that you should not tune anything untill it is fully warmed up you shouldnt need to do a whole lot of messing with the warmup stuff since you are going to mess with base fuel numbers but the engine still warms up at the same rate.

Isnt the idea basically pumping efficiency is base fuel and then you have idle/mid/WOT tables to fine tune?

We have the basics, check out the KC.

This is for more advanced understandings of how each table co-mingles, this is awesome stuff, :hail:

[risen]

Ha! Always, lol.

I want to make it as easy to understand as possible. But, again, I don't want to mislead. Some things about the Chrysler code just are NOT easy to understand, and I can't make it easy. But, normal operating temperature WOT operation is pretty easy to understand. That's why I started there.

I was just looking thru the MS tuning guide stuff to compare. It's not easy to understand, either, if you ask me.

Like I said in the other thread, it ain't special relativity but it ain't cookie baking either. I guess we should be glad chryco didn't use PID for all sorts of stuff like the MS guys did.

[zin]

I was just looking thru the MS tuning guide stuff to compare. It's not easy to understand, either, if you ask me.

I've got a copy of the Holley Commander 950 instructions, they are pretty damn thorough, if you want to take a look at something more "commercial" than MS...

Mike

PS Here's the link to the DL on Holley's site, figure that would be easier than trying to e-mail a 9+MB file!
http://www.holley.com/data/Products/Technical/199R10149-7.pdf

[Shadow]

I'm an idiot when it comes to this stuff and your explanation sounds good to me! :clap:

[ShelGame]

I'm an idiot when it comes to this stuff and your explanation sounds good to me! :clap:

Praise enough for me :thumb:

[shackwrrr]

I understood it alot better now and now I am wanting to read more

[ShelGame]

The Part throttle fuel is in-process. Maybe I'll have it done enough to post up later today...

[DodgeZ]

Nice.

[ShelGame]

Added the P/T section and started the O2 controller description. It's posted as a .pdf in the 1st post now.

I want to expand the O2 controller explanation more, but I need to work on how much detail to get into. It's a complicated system, and I still don't understand it completely myself...

[DodgeZ]

how does the target AF work?

[ShelGame]

How do you mean? In the 3 main fuel tables? Basically, it's just part of the Speed-Density PW calculation. Chrysler chose to put that value in the 3 main fuel tables, rather than a separate lookup.

I have a little section about that in the fuel table flow chart. I might add that equation and explanation to the user guide.

[DodgeZ]

How do you mean? In the 3 main fuel tables? Basically, it's just part of the Speed-Density PW calculation. Chrysler chose to put that value in the 3 main fuel tables, rather than a separate lookup.

I have a little section about that in the fuel table flow chart. I might add that equation and explanation to the user guide.

I guess how to use it in MP tuner.

[ShelGame]

I actually have not played with the AF setup in MP Tuner much. You'd have to ask Morris (wowzer) how that works. But, it should be similar to CHeM2...

[1966 dart wagon]

Thank you very much for the write up.

I knew exactly how to tune my cals in dcal and chem, now i open mptuner and get confused, under the fueling graph. Im pretty lost when using MPtuner, I go setup, scan setup and i get a bunch of numbers, now what....

[wowzer]

the scan setup is used for mpscan. it is NOT for the fueling setup.

to adjust fueling you need to open up a tune, select miscellaneous, then fueling setup. you will see 3 columns of AFRs for the 3 fueling tables. enter your desired afr based on the corresponding psi. remember this is an absolute psi so 0 really equals 14.7 bar VACUUM and 15 is the ~ beginning of boost. make sure you also set the items on the right to correspond to your cars setup.

chem2 had the afrs hardcoded in the program so that is why it seemed easier to set up. (also, looking thru the chem2 code i noticed an error in the calc used, so be careful with chem2. never calculated how much it was off tho).

the afr data is saved with the template so the next time you open up the template the data should be the same.

in the fueling tables the yellow line represents the theoretical pulsewidth calculated based on the afr and other info you entered in that screen above. so if the yellow line is higher than the fuel graph line u r running leaner than desired (pulsewidth is shorter than desired). u will see the data represented in AFR form on the bottom right of the screen.

[1966 dart wagon]

alright I figured out how to go into tune, then opened turbonator 16.7 and recognized stuff from chem/dcal! sweet, you said the yellow line is the 'want to have' afr, well it says its setup for 2 bar, I want 3 bar, 40+s and e85 tune, where do in input that info to change that line?

Thanks for all the help!

-Jack

[1BADVAN]

i really think that the write-up is great! i read it and understood most of it the first time through. I am excited for more! I agree with Rob that there is a point when simplifying things any more will mislead/misinform people of things.

I understood how and why the O2 kicks work, but not really how or why we would adjust them. meaning i understand it it adjust part throttle fuel goals but i don't understand how to decide what part of the different kick boxes you should start with to actually start changing it

[ShelGame]

alright I figured out how to go into tune, then opened turbonator 16.7 and recognized stuff from chem/dcal! sweet, you said the yellow line is the 'want to have' afr, well it says its setup for 2 bar, I want 3 bar, 40+s and e85 tune, where do in input that info to change that line?

Thanks for all the help!

-Jack

At the top, there's a menu option for 'scaling', you can select MAP or injector scaling there.

[wowzer]

At the top, there's a menu option for 'scaling', you can select MAP or injector scaling there.

also, in the fueling setup section you need to confirm that you have set up the injectors u r using correctly as well as the other parameters. in particular, under the "Fuel Type SG" box, select the E85 option. also make sure you have the engine "Liters" selected correctly.

[Aries_Turbo]

When tuning for WOT, typically you set the target A/F using the main fuel
table (WOTTBL).

this statement in section 1.1/WOT Tuning Notes is going to throw people off. not because you worded it wrong or anything, but everyone wants to mess around with the map tables first when beginning tuning when they should be adjusting PEFTBL.

you might want to word it:

"When setting up the calibration for WOT, typically you set the target A/F using the main fuel table (WOTTBL) based on calculations that MPTuner and Chem2 make."

"When tuning actual WOT fuel for the first time, you use PEFTBL"

people that first start tuning are immediately thinking in terms of boost so they want to jump to those map tables and those you adjust if you have some wierdness in the upper boost ranges once the PEFTBL is already dialed in at the lowest boost level possible.

Brian

[1BADVAN]

this statement in section 1.1/WOT Tuning Notes is going to throw people off. not because you worded it wrong or anything, but everyone wants to mess around with the map tables first when beginning tuning when they should be adjusting PEFTBL.

you might want to word it:

"When setting up the calibration for WOT, typically you set the target A/F using the main fuel table (WOTTBL) based on calculations that MPTuner and Chem2 make."

"When tuning actual WOT fuel for the first time, you use PEFTBL"

people that first start tuning are immediately thinking in terms of boost so they want to jump to those map tables and those you adjust if you have some wierdness in the upper boost ranges once the PEFTBL is already dialed in at the lowest boost level possible.

Brian
+1
I agree if this is going to be a real "tuners guide" there should be descriptions on when and why you would adjust things and in what order. Such as this fuel thing, or the timing or O2 kicks.
Maybe you will want to just finishthe explanation of everything just like you are already doing and then go back and explain exactly how and when to use ir, or maybe someone like Brian who knows about the process and is willing can add the "when and why to apply this in tuning" part to help cut down on the work for you??
Just some ideas to throw out.

I cant wait until there is more!!
i hope that makes sense

[ShelGame]

this statement in section 1.1/WOT Tuning Notes is going to throw people off. not because you worded it wrong or anything, but everyone wants to mess around with the map tables first when beginning tuning when they should be adjusting PEFTBL.

you might want to word it:

"When setting up the calibration for WOT, typically you set the target A/F using the main fuel table (WOTTBL) based on calculations that MPTuner and Chem2 make."

"When tuning actual WOT fuel for the first time, you use PEFTBL"

people that first start tuning are immediately thinking in terms of boost so they want to jump to those map tables and those you adjust if you have some wierdness in the upper boost ranges once the PEFTBL is already dialed in at the lowest boost level possible.

Brian

That's a good point. I'll make sure to point that out...

[ShelGame]

+1
I agree if this is going to be a real "tuners guide" there should be descriptions on when and why you would adjust things and in what order. Such as this fuel thing, or the timing or O2 kicks.
Maybe you will want to just finishthe explanation of everything just like you are already doing and then go back and explain exactly how and when to use ir, or maybe someone like Brian who knows about the process and is willing can add the "when and why to apply this in tuning" part to help cut down on the work for you??
Just some ideas to throw out.

I cant wait until there is more!!
i hope that makes sense

Sure, makes sense to include the experience from as many tuners as possible.

Rather than cover the idle fuel, I think I'll get into the spark timing next. Then the boost control. I think the boost control is probably the most mis-understood of the controls...

[1BADVAN]

yeah more experience is nice but i think the main importance would be the actual process of tuning.

I think what you are currently doing is perfect and great, but maybe add a sequence of steps to take to get to the desired tune. Your guide shows how the numbers are calculated which is great and very useful, but i think it could use more explanation of how we can use it. Just like you did with the PEFTBL you said if you are lean or rich in a spot you need to move the closest point up or down. The example makes me understand it WAY better. So maybe add in the O2 kicks section "if you want to lean it out a bit at 2000 rpm you need to adjust the_______" So we can see how to actually accomplish or change what you are explaining, the fuel graphs are pretty intuitive but other stuff isn't

Cause at least for me i understand a little of how the O2 kicks calculate but nothing of how to adjust it. I would think that adding an example or description of how, why, and when to adjust the constants would result in less of the same question being asked over and over.


Or maybe these types of instructions should be put in a separate beginners guide or something?

[ShelGame]

Or maybe these types of instructions should be put in a separate beginners guide or something?

No, I think this type of document is appropriate for that. My intent was to give some guidance on setting up a cal on your own. And, to make it as easy to understand as possible. So, I'll add some of that kind of info.

[wowzer]

...
Or maybe these types of instructions should be put in a separate beginners guide or something?...

it would be easy enough to incorporate the "guides" right into mptuner help screens when completed.

[zin]

it would be easy enough to incorporate the "guides" right into mptuner help screens when completed.

This to me would be the ultimate... Integration of program and "help" file...

Click on a parameter's "help" button/hyperlink (whatever) and you get the scale of adjustment, what it actually does and at what point you should mess with it (if at all).

Seems like this would be a great way to learn in an intuitive way! Of course, you still need some kind of framework going in, like what parameters do you need to have loaded/known before you start, what changes might require you to start fresh... But all and all, I can see me using something like that, especially since it would reduce the dumbazz effect, that's when I flood the board with noob questions...

Mike

[Aries_Turbo]

i should have cataloged all my noob questions somewhere based on topic. i find myself typing things over and over again. :)

brian

[AzShadow]

thanks for this! def gonna re-read the entire thing each time an update is made

[Force Fed Mopar]

The more detail the better for me :)

For instance:


Auto Cal Factors Table
Closed throttle (idle) = cell 12, otherwise:


O2 Controller Cells
Closed Throttle (Idle) = Cell 9, otherwise:

The charts do not have a 12 or 9 on them (respectively). I'm assuming that since it starts counting from 0 that it means 11 and 8 are the 12 and 9 spots, but I don't like assuming things :D

[ShelGame]

Right, because idle is off the charts. Anything lower than R1 or MP1 uses the idle cell.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Updates? Kinda wanting to play with the boost control ;)

[ShelGame]

The boost control is actually pretty simple. I'll see if I can throw somethign together tomorrow...

[DodgeZ]

The boost control is actually pretty simple. I'll see if I can throw somethign together tomorrow...

It is time for me to de-G-valve my car also.

[zin]

It is time for me to de-G-valve my car also.

speaking of boost control... Does anyone know how much pressure the OEM solenoid is good for? I'm talking stone cold reliable as I do not want to take a chance on over-boosting because I tried to cheap out and use the stock stuff... I would really like to though so it doesn't raise the suspicions of the Smog Nazis...

Mike

[1BADVAN]

any eta on an update?

[shelbymonster]

speaking of boost control... Does anyone know how much pressure the OEM solenoid is good for? I'm talking stone cold reliable as I do not want to take a chance on over-boosting because I tried to cheap out and use the stock stuff... I would really like to though so it doesn't raise the suspicions of the Smog Nazis...

Mike

rob made me a cal for 28 psi , so yeah the stock solenoid works in those boost level

[ShelGame]

any eta on an update?

Just busy with other projects right now. Good projects, trust me. Maybe next week I'll get back the guide...

[1BADVAN]

Yeah I know just ancy for many of your projects! This and the T3 code and the SBEC stuff I am all excited for thanks for all you do with this!

[Force Fed Mopar]

Updates? Kinda wanting to play with the boost control ;)


The boost control is actually pretty simple. I'll see if I can throw somethign together tomorrow...

Actually what I meant to say was Wastegate Control :) Didn't realize they were separate tables at first. I'm having issues w/ boost level fluctuation at WOT, doesn't want to hold steady psi, goes up and down 2-3 psi. Part throttle is rock solid at 10ish, which is where I set it.

[1BADVAN]

I saw your new KC article with FAQs about tuning and how you were wondering where to go with the tuning guide. From reading what you post there most people are wondering the basic fuel, timing and boost controls
My thought would be (and i would love to learn it this way) is that you start with a how to tune your car with Turbonator guide. for example similar to an old KC article i read, Start out with minimum, boost , then while logging or watching your fuel, slowly adjust tables a, b, and, c in this way to get the A/F to be consistant.

then explain when to adjust timing and what tables would be best to start with and adjust.,

then explain how to adjust for knock or lean spots you encounter as you start to slowly raise the boost.

I would also love to see a simplified fuel and spark flow chart. like for timing explain ONLY how the tables you need to adjust work for example 'WOT timing'=(advancefromRPM2)+(advancefromMAPwarmFull* multiplier) or whatever it is that way we can see a simple explanation and try to go from that.

I don't know if this makes any sense but i think if there was a process or method of attack explained to go along with the definitions people would know where to start rather than just stabbing at different tables. (cause that is what i did, and still do in ways)