Last street legals of 2010, PB's of the year for me and 4cefedomni!

[turbovanman²]

I have been playing all week with the advance curve, thought I had it nailed, no knock on 94 and alky, so I thought, ack. I tried the cams advanced-8 int, 6 ex Wed night but it wouldn't rev out, shut down at 6K but boy did it spool the turbo now and loud, :nod: Put them back to 2 deg advanced. Emptied the tank and added gas and toluene, aprox 4:1 mix, :clap:

Found out my Ostrich is buggered again, won't talk with laptops but will with home computers? Borrowed James so I could change my timing. Guess I'll just take my home computer to the track next year, :lol:

I decided to weigh her again, with me in it, 3675 lbs, last years weight was 3620lbs, WTF, lol.

Boost Geek showed up, no car, and Bakes too for support.

Nice day today but cold, Don is late, he phones me at 5:30, still stuck in traffic, I rip off a run, 15 lbs at the line, felt good but the SES light came on, so backpedaled a bit, 1.9 60ft and 13.9@92.13., 18 psi.

Get back to the pits and another TM member is there, he's got a 90 or 91 Shadow, with a T2 turbo and IC setup, Jeff aka Blueshadow.

We line up next round, I took some timing out at 20 psi, left the boost alone, 2.0 60ft, 14.2@86, it was worse this run, so I had to get out, Jeff ran a 16.8@89, 2.8 60ft on street tires, :lol:

Now I am pissed, so I decide to RETARD the cams for shitts and giggles, 2 and 2, line up with Jeff, same boost, bogs at the line, very rich and rich the whole run, 2.1 60ft and a 14.4@93.5, I turned the boost up to 23 psi and just felt slow, SES light came on in 3rd so I had to get out. Jeff ran a 15.1@93.

So I put it back to 2 deg advanced, take out more timing and line up with 4cefedomni, who finally made it in his Caravelle, he took out the cat and changed out the TII injectors, replaced a bad ox sensor that was stuck lean. I cut a .334 light, him a .730, I didn't know but those changes quickened up his car, he ran 14.3 last time out, I came out of the hole HARD, forgot it was at 23 psi, she was pulling fierce, finally, :partywoot, we both cut almost identical 60 fts, 1.956 to his 1.966, :wow1 It hit 2nd and the light came on, could feel it slow down, so I pedaled out and lowered the boost, but it wouldn't go out, :mad: I could see him coming, damn, it was close, didn't know if I won or not? Got the time slips, 13.6@95 for me, 13.7@97 for him, I beat him by .5 due to my reaction time, hehehhe. Dammit, if I could have kept my foot in, that would have been an easy 12, :(

Get back to the pits, take out MORE timing, but alas, never got another run, they said the track was getting too cold, :mecry: So I'll go to the dyno and see what's going on, sucks, I was finally getting it figured out.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Why would you empty the tank if you had it tuned good on 94 and alky? You just changed your whole fueling setup putting you in the I know nothing about my setup boat. Glad you got a PB but you really should leave things alone and see what it runs instead of changing things all the time. Go out and make 10 passes on the same setup on the street.

[shadow88]

I think buying and tuning on race gas is really what's best for your consistency and overall safety of your engine. Non leadded if you can get away with it.

[Aries_Turbo]

leave the damn cams alone!!!!! :) set them at a little bit advanced (2 deg seems to be good for you) to keep your low revs solid cause every time you change the cam timing, it effects how much timing advance you can run.

every time you change the fuel or the cam timing, you need to remap the ignition because it effects the amount of timing advance you can run.

set the cams at +2 and leave them there for a MONTH! keep the same fuel in for a MONTH!

then take some time to work on the advance table.

remember, if you have an RPM range where it wants to knock at various levels of boost (like from 15-23psi it always knocks at 4300rpm or something like that) you need to take a little timing advance out of the AdvanceFromRpm2/GOVNER table. if you get the knock under control at 15psi by taking a little out at one rpm point, and then it knocks again at 25psi, then take it out of AdvanceFromMapWarmPart and AdvanceFromMapWarmFull tables at that boost level.

keep in mind, you spend alot more time at one boost level after spoolup, than at one RPM point that you blast past on the way to redline.


Maybe the new cams are too efficient and I don't need that much timing?

duh! ive been telling you that you dont need that much timing for YEARS! :) you have a heavy vehicle. you have a HUGE stroke and reduction of knock suppressant material in the head. you cant run 2.2L timing. :)

nice job getting it solidly in the 13's. now get to the dyno for a few days. ride the brakes on the dyno too for extra load.

Brian

[cordes]

Glad to hear you guys had a good time.

[2.216VTurbo]

Simon your post is descriptive, entertaining, chok full of detail but it's like a train wreck. I have to read on but:confused: I'm expecting to read in the next line that coolant sprayed out where the head gasket used to be or that a rod punched a gaping hole in the side of the block. There's just too much going on there, it is entertaining tho;)

Why not just centerline the cams to 121 and 104 where they make best power(or your running modded cams so not sure if they would have the same CL?) When I got my first set of adjustable TIII gears on the Rampage, I tried them all over the place like you are doing. Yeah the top end was better with the IN retarded a bit and the EX advanced but once I CL'd them (I was 11 degrees off on the EX and 10 on the IN when I had them seat of the pants adjusted:o)it just ran way better everywhere. Crickey, set em and forget em. Then make small fuel/timing changes into your 12 sec pass.

[turbovanman²]

Why would you empty the tank if you had it tuned good on 94 and alky? You just changed your whole fueling setup putting you in the I know nothing about my setup boat. Glad you got a PB but you really should leave things alone and see what it runs instead of changing things all the time. Go out and make 10 passes on the same setup on the street.

Because the track and the slicks load it up even more, it knocked on pure C16 last time out, :(

Adding Toluene adds a true 7+ points, so its called being safe, :nod:


I think buying and tuning on race gas is really what's best for your consistency and overall safety of your engine. Non leadded if you can get away with it.


See above and even see the last race log, :amen:



leave the damn cams alone!!!!! :) set them at a little bit advanced (2 deg seems to be good for you) to keep your low revs solid cause every time you change the cam timing, it effects how much timing advance you can run.

every time you change the fuel or the cam timing, you need to remap the ignition because it effects the amount of timing advance you can run.

set the cams at +2 and leave them there for a MONTH! keep the same fuel in for a MONTH!

then take some time to work on the advance table.

remember, if you have an RPM range where it wants to knock at various levels of boost (like from 15-23psi it always knocks at 4300rpm or something like that) you need to take a little timing advance out of the AdvanceFromRpm2/GOVNER table. if you get the knock under control at 15psi by taking a little out at one rpm point, and then it knocks again at 25psi, then take it out of AdvanceFromMapWarmPart and AdvanceFromMapWarmFull tables at that boost level.

keep in mind, you spend alot more time at one boost level after spoolup, than at one RPM point that you blast past on the way to redline.


Maybe the new cams are too efficient and I don't need that much timing?

duh! ive been telling you that you dont need that much timing for YEARS! :) you have a heavy vehicle. you have a HUGE stroke and reduction of knock suppressant material in the head. you cant run 2.2L timing. :)

nice job getting it solidly in the 13's. now get to the dyno for a few days. ride the brakes on the dyno too for extra load.

Brian

I know, I am taking out advance where it knocks, around 20 psi, you should see my table now, its low, :wow1: I showed Bakes what the old 12 sec cal was, its like a huge difference, lol. I am still shocked HOW MUCH timing I've taken out at 20 psi, it just doesn't seem right over last years setup.

I am not removing anything until I hit the dyno, its too much fun on the street with this setup, :partywoot:

Yes I know cam timing effects things, I was playing around, :p


Simon your post is descriptive, entertaining, chok full of detail but it's like a train wreck. I have to read on but:confused: I'm expecting to read in the next line that coolant sprayed out where the head gasket used to be or that a rod punched a gaping hole in the side of the block. There's just too much going on there, it is entertaining tho;)

Why not just centerline the cams to 121 and 104 where they make best power(or your running modded cams so not sure if they would have the same CL?) When I got my first set of adjustable TIII gears on the Rampage, I tried them all over the place like you are doing. Yeah the top end was better with the IN retarded a bit and the EX advanced but once I CL'd them (I was 11 degrees off on the EX and 10 on the IN when I had them seat of the pants adjusted:o)it just ran way better everywhere. Crickey, set em and forget em. Then make small fuel/timing changes into your 12 sec pass.

Cam's are degree'd, that's why I know if I am 2 deg's advanced or retarded.

The 12 sec cal isn't even close to this setup, I run it and it knocks everywhere and is way too lean, :o

My biggest issue is no seat time, but now I have until April to get it figured out, :(

[Aries_Turbo]

I know, I am taking out advance where it knocks, around 20 psi, you should see my table now, its low, :wow1: I showed Bakes what the old 12 sec cal was, its like a huge difference, lol. I am still shocked HOW MUCH timing I've taken out at 20 psi, it just doesn't seem right over last years setup.

last years setup ALWAYS audibly knocked and eventually melted down the old motor. you dont seem to realize that. :)


I am not removing anything until I hit the dyno, its too much fun on the street with this setup, :partywoot:

as long as the CEL stays off then i suppose thats ok for the street.


Yes I know cam timing effects things, I was playing around, :p

Cam's are degree'd, that's why I know if I am 2 deg's advanced or retarded.


youd have much better drag results if you stopped playing around and just worked on tuning. you are starting over every time you turn the key on that van because you change so much stuff continually.

stop playing around, get serious and tune! :)


The 12 sec cal isn't even close to this setup, I run it and it knocks everywhere and is way too lean, :o

My biggest issue is no seat time, but now I have until April to get it figured out, :(

throw that 12 sec cal in the trash. its nowhere near correct for this engine.

you have tons of seat time. every time you get in the van can have a few 1st/2nd gear pulls against the brakes and tune a small section of the map.

i am really glad that you had a good time racing though as much as i harp on you for your insane tuning methods. :) its better than hearing that "it was a total effing waste of time!". :)

Brian

[turbovanman²]

last years setup ALWAYS audibly knocked and eventually melted down the old motor. you dont seem to realize that. :)

It knocked because the pistons were so loose, they were slamming around in the bore, sounded worse than a friggin diesel. :p It never knocked, I couldn't hear any detonation, this engine, you easily can.




as long as the CEL stays off then i suppose thats ok for the street.

Of course, :p



youd have much better drag results if you stopped playing around and just worked on tuning. you are starting over every time you turn the key on that van because you change so much stuff continually.

stop playing around, get serious and tune! :)

Well when you have limited time, you want to try things, its better than giving up and walking away. Now I have time to get it right, :nod:




throw that 12 sec cal in the trash. its nowhere near correct for this engine.

Its there for reference only.



you have tons of seat time. every time you get in the van can have a few 1st/2nd gear pulls against the brakes and tune a small section of the map.

i am really glad that you had a good time racing though as much as i harp on you for your insane tuning methods. :) its better than hearing that "it was a total effing waste of time!". :)

Brian


I will be now, thought I had it but of course, get to the track and it acts differently.

It was fun, sort off, :eyebrows:

Just needed ONE more run, sigh.

[GLHNSLHT2]

I will be now, thought I had it but of course, get to the track and it acts differently.


Of course it does, you changed the setup before going to the track. You seem do that everytime you go to the track then wonder why it runs like crap.

[4cefedomni]

It knocked because the pistons were so loose, they were slamming around in the bore, sounded worse than a friggin diesel. :p It never knocked, I couldn't hear any detonation, this engine, you easily can.

maybe you couldn't hear the knocking over the EXTREMELY loud piston slap you had going on in that motor?
I heard it and it did slap so bad it sounded like a diesel.

[turbovanman²]

Of course it does, you changed the setup before going to the track. You seem do that everytime you go to the track then wonder why it runs like crap.

Your not paying attention, I didn't change the tune UNTIL I did my first run, then I took out more timing. Reading isn't your strong point, :p


maybe you couldn't hear the knocking over the EXTREMELY loud piston slap you had going on in that motor?
I heard it and it did slap so bad it sounded like a diesel.

Maybe, lol, but you can hear detonation, has a different sound to it, plus if it really was detonating, it wouldn't have lasted 2 years, :eyebrows:

[4cefedomni]

Lol you could have measured your piston to bore clearance with a tape measure:p

[turbovanman²]

Lol you could have measured your piston to bore clearance with a tape measure:p

Tape measure? try a 4x4 piece of wood, :lol:

[Aries_Turbo]

It knocked because the pistons were so loose, they were slamming around in the bore, sounded worse than a friggin diesel. :p It never knocked, I couldn't hear any detonation, this engine, you easily can.


i saw the pistons that came out of that motor. you detonated alot.

Brian

[turbovanman²]

i saw the pistons that came out of that motor. you detonated alot.

Brian

That was lean my friend, trust me, my Dawes shut off which means lean and I never bothered to look at the AF gauge, lol. I think I hit 35 psi and I wasn't mapped for anything past 30.

Even if it was detonation, it was because I wasn't mapped for 30+ psi. I melted that motor a few times near the end.

[Ondonti]

Just going to throw this out there.


I have a feeling your cams are junk if they are one you sourced for yourself.
Run the cam at the degree that the grinder specified. Don't change it one degree until everything else is worked out. Cam timing should be the last thing you touch on your van. THE LAST.

If they won't make power at the specified setting, they are junk.

And you know you can't change 3 things at once and ever get any sort of useful data. Its just not that hard to go quick when you have all the right parts. You keep screwing up things by being greedy and impatient.

With a GT35 turbo you should be able to make decent power without having your timing on the verge of detonation. If removing a few degrees kills all power, then you have something wrong.

My big cams were cut to be run on stock centerlines. I ran them +4 degrees because I wanted more low end power. In the end, the bottom end was not worth the huge loss up top, even with my super low rev limiter. Lesson learned. I put them at zero and all of a sudden the car was fast on low boost. The most I might ever do is retard the cams slightly if I can prove on the dyno that it helps overall power when I start looking at 8000+ rpms.
Again, thats the LAST thing in line when it comes to tuning the engine.

I lost 7mph when I went from stock to +8 on 5 pounds of boost. I blamed going from street tires to slicks but you don't go from 107mph to 99 because of slicks. I did change it to +4 and went back up to 103mph. Imagine if i did that at 20 pounds of boost? We are talking potential 20mph loss from me being an idiot with cam gears. At +4 it took 10psi to go 107mph. Me was dumb. The car made crap power until I made quite a few changes but I didn't hit the track, just the dyno. Those changes were pretty much me running a crapload of timing and methanol, and it just was all a bad idea.

Slap in a bone stock longblock and go 117mph on 16 pounds and 125 on 22 pounds. Man, I didnt feel too smart when I pulled that off. I blame a lot of that on the cam timing, me thinking I was helping the bottom end but in reality I was just screwing up my potential.
....
Just to give you an idea of how bad it is to mess with cam timing before you sort everything else.

I also think you should be pulling your plugs quite often. Maybe setup some knock headphones on top of that.
I would make it a goal to do 100mph on pump gas with a safe tune, then get crazy again.

[turbovanman²]

I here what your saying, I did play with them one day as the laptop crapped out and now I one at the track, figured I would try one setting, and it didn't work so no more cam timing changes, :p

They are made for stock specs but as we all know, every engine/combo is different so it doesn't hurt to play.

It still seems to make good power even with the timing pulled back, so now I have like 6 months to figure this out and I did do a 100 mph at low boost, but there was C16 in the tank, lol.

I will use some headphones on the dyno, just to be sure and safe. Thanks.

[Ondonti]

Just run them at zero until the fan stops being fed organic waste matter.

[8valves]

Because the track and the slicks load it up even more, it knocked on pure C16 last time out, :(



If your van is knocking on pure C16 that was fresh from the can, not sitting around for a couple of weeks in a gas jug (---- goes bad), making all of maybe 300HP then you have a SEVERE issue with your setup. And I mean SEVERE.

[turbovanman²]

Just run them at zero until the fan stops being fed organic waste matter.

Huh? :confused:


If your van is knocking on pure C16 that was fresh from the can, not sitting around for a couple of weeks in a gas jug (---- goes bad), making all of maybe 300HP then you have a SEVERE issue with your setup. And I mean SEVERE.

Well it doesn't like timing, so I've taken a ton out, mucho better.

[8valves]

Huh? :confused:



Well it doesn't like timing, so I've taken a ton out, mucho better.


What's your total advance at 20 psi?

[turbovanman²]

What's your total advance at 20 psi?

No idea, I just pull the line down after every run.

[Shadow]

No idea, I just pull the line down after every run.

That's 1 major problem right there! You gotta Stop guessing! Get a DRB2 or something, Anything that will read your timing and other crusial data for proper tuning!

[Aries_Turbo]

simon cmon. you know how to calculate it.

take the timing in the AdvanceFromRPM2 or GOVNER table at the highest RPM point and add it to the value of the AdvanceFromMapWarmFull table.

thats your total timing at 20psi.

Brian

[Ondonti]

Brian, I don't think any of us want to see that number...

[turbovanman²]

That's 1 major problem right there! You gotta Stop guessing! Get a DRB2 or something, Anything that will read your timing and other crusial data for proper tuning!

We've been thru this already, lol. I honestly don't care what the numbers are, I just take the WOT advance map line and move it down a bit after every run. :p


simon cmon. you know how to calculate it.

take the timing in the AdvanceFromRPM2 or GOVNER table at the highest RPM point and add it to the value of the AdvanceFromMapWarmFull table.

thats your total timing at 20psi.

Brian

I didn't know how to figure it out, I'll do that tonight and post up for you enquiring minds, :nod:

[Shadow]

We've been thru this already, lol. I honestly don't care what the numbers are, I just take the WOT advance map line and move it down a bit after every run. :p

Fair enough bro, Knock yourself out! :lol:

[turbovanman²]

Fair enough bro, Knock yourself out! :lol:

Man, that's bad, but actually pretty good, :lol:

[Aries_Turbo]

email me your cal. id like to see it.

Brian

[turbovanman²]

email me your cal. id like to see it.

Brian

Maybe, :o

[GLHNSLHT2]

Just run them at zero until the fan stops being fed organic waste matter.


Huh? :confused:



In otherwords so the Sh1t doesn't hit the fan!!

[GLHNSLHT2]

We've been thru this already, lol. I honestly don't care what the numbers are, I just take the WOT advance map line and move it down a bit after every run. :p

OMFG! With that attitude you shouldn't even be touching the car.

[turbovanman²]

In otherwords so the Sh1t doesn't hit the fan!!

Ahhh, got it.


OMFG! With that attitude you shouldn't even be touching the car.

Why are knowing numbers a big deal? What do I need them for, bragging rights? Who gives a shitt what the numbers are? It doesn't make any difference if I know them or not? If so, please explain.

[Ondonti]

Because your TIII van runs like junk even with a pile of mods and the numbers can indicate what is the real problem.

You can't just run around changing things hoping it gets better. Having watched your old 8 valve stuff, I know that is what you did back then swapping in and out calibrations.
Timing is a very exact science. You get it wrong and you get bad results. Its better to be 5 degrees low then 1 degree too high.

A TIII with a GT35R does not need race gas until over 20 pounds of boost. I am saying it doesn't need 100 octane let alone C16. People are running 30+ pounds of boost on GT35R turbos with 16 valve heads on pump 91 gas and no methanol injection. You can't even run 18 pounds without knock.

Just so you know, running too much timing does not make more power. It actually loses power. The only reason you ever need race gas is if your timing threshold (before power drops off) is in the knock area when it comes to octane. You can always run timing slightly less then optimum.



Do you really think its such a bad idea to start nailing down every little setting on the car?
Your cam centerline, your cams then should be at zero. Your base timing, then what is your total timing advance at WOT. That simple amount of information being accurate WILL make your car run well. 3 simple numbers. I have a feeling your cams and your base timing are the problem right now. The distributor should be set at a known number, permanently marked off, then NEVER touched again. Even if it knocks, never touch the distributor. Do your tuning with ignition advance.
I would also go as far as to say your cams are not degreed properly if they run better when you move them around randomly.


Its easy to run too much timing and think you are doing things right. When i did 516whp and 519ft/lb I was running 48 degrees of total timing. 26 degrees of advance, 22 degrees base timing (stock is 12).
That was on 91 octane with 2400cc's or so of Methanol. 7.0:1 compression. I added 4 degrees of base timing (stock computer back then).
The dyno chart was really choppy (spark blowout) and I didn't actually gain any power. I think I lost 1 hp. I got all excited to drop the spark plug gap that I forgot about the stupid timing I added. Plugs regapped and it make 514. Cranked the boost controller and made like .02psi more boost and did 516 and a few ft/lb more torque.

Now if I had been a smart boy, i would have realized that even 18 degrees of base timing was too much on 20 pounds of boost. But what did I do? I ran 22 pounds. I probably would have made more power if I had removed a LOT of timing! Plus it would not have pushed coolant later on when playing on the street.
So i got away with running 48 degrees of timing but in reality it should have been more like 38 degrees. Even one degree over optimum timing hurts power. One degree also might be the boom boom.

My current spark map is REALLY aggressive in my opinion for 10:1 compression but I take out a bit of timing (0.3-.08 degrees) around my peak torque just to be "safe" and add a little up top.
When your motor goes boom its usually between 4500-5500 when cylinder pressures are the highest (in the average midsize turbo setup for a torquey engine). Just moving the line down is not the right way to do things. First confirm that timing is 100% your issue, THEN worry about getting timing optimum. I suggest running low timing vs running too much ;)

at 20psi boost, I would say that you should not have more then 26 degrees total timing with your compression level and pump gas and boost. That might even be a little high. I have a feeling your timing is more like 50 degrees advanced. Yes I think its that messed up if your cams are really degreed properly.

[Ondonti]

Actually I have a 2.4L timing map here that was quickly done by one of the top tuners in the nation on one of the board members cars.

Don't go above 20 degress TOTAL timing at 20 pounds of boost right now. I don't care what your fuel octane is, you can't get magic power from excessively pressurizing the cylinder as the crankshaft is still moving up. All C16 allows you to do is LOSE more power without knocking. The better your engine and turbo setup, the less timing you need. Bigger turbo? LESS TIMING!

Drop 1.5 degrees of timing for every 3 psi of boost beyond 20psi. So 0.5 degrees for every .5 degree.

This should get you "going" on a good spark map.

Just so you know, the tuner removed 8.5 degrees of timing from the owners original map 20psi that to him seemed good. The owners original map was also running well and was probably well below what you are running.


This means if your base timing is 12 degrees, you can only run 8 degrees electronic advance. Please please please don't BS that you know better and that your tune is fine. Its not.

When you get your car running decent, then you can add some octane ON THE DYNO, and see if adding timing gains power. Then write all this information down as you go so you will know what is safe on pump vs various race gas mixes.
Yes, its possible to go fast on pump gas even if your car is lightly faster on race gas.

[ShadowFromHell]

There is alot to this timing deal. I know its not cal related, but years ago a buddy had a t2 daytona. Straight 3inch exhaust, stock IC, and 13psi it ran a 14.9. We clamped the map sensor, added a set of +20's and dialed it in on a narrow band to 18psi. We left the timing at 14 degree's, because TDG said that what he ran. Dropped it to a 14.7 :(. He sold it, and a year later I bought it back. I had done some reading and dropped the timing to 8 degree's. HOLY CRAP! The car picked up alot of power, and probably would have easily ran into the 13's. It flat SCOOTED! We did not have a scanner, and this was before cals were affordable, so we were tuning the timing blind. The computer was pulling a ton of timing, and we didn't know. Dropped the base and it flew...

I now have a OTC2000, I bought for the sole reason of watching knock.

[turbovanman²]

Again Brent, knowing numbers means squat, maybe for the MS crowd but for stock, not needed. I know I don't need alot of timing but I gotta start somewhere.

My base is 12 deg and don't touch it, unless playing with cam timing which I've stopped messing with.

I took a stock cal and started retarding timing every time out, that's all there is too it, I don't need to know how much timing I am running, its pointless. We've had this discussion before. Every setup is different, and when I retard the timing enough it stops knocking, then I found the magic setup.

As for a scanner, that's why I have the SES light flash, easier to see than a scanner at WOT, :nod:

This is the chart I deal with for timing control so you can see numbers mean nothing. This isn't my current timing curve either, its alot lower.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/Burner%20chip%20computer%20info%20etc/WOTsparkcurve.jpg

[Aries_Turbo]

wheres your AdvanceFromRPM2 table?

[turbovanman²]

wheres your AdvanceFromRPM2 table?

That's from a month ago. Check your email, I sent you my cals last night.

[Aries_Turbo]

ok..... took a look at simons current cal.

at 19.1psi and 6000 rpms, he is running 12deg TOTAL timing on his latest cal.

another cal he sent me looks to be running 3deg advance total at 6k and 19.2psi but i didnt take into account the other modifiers in the cal so it may be a touch more than that.

either way, the setup has major problems and needs alot of mods rolled back.

simon, i bet that if you popped a stock 2.2L TIII motor in there with your turbo, with good tuning, youd go WAY faster then you ever have, even with the decrease in displacement. it will still make crushing torque.

Brian

[turbovanman²]

Interesting.

Well it ran fine with a stock chambers and cams so like I've said, I'll play on the dyno, if the numbers suck, then off it comes and stock stuff goes back on. I have until next April/May to figure this combo out. And like I keep saying, this combo on the street right now is brutally fun, I rarely hit full throttle, I don't need to. :nod:

As for 2.2, never, unless I shave 1500 lbs off it, :eyebrows:

[8valves]

Simon,

Knowing the numbers is everything. It gives you a point of reference to say that the combo is working efficiently, or not.

This is the #1 reason most people's cars, no matter the make or model, suck for what they are. Why do some people's DSM's with boatloads of mods go 12.80's, yet we stick one together with some BS parts and go 11.70's with a 177K mile longblock?

Why does my co-workers stock CAMSHAFT and bottom end 5.0 go 10.80's?

Why does my beater, stock turbo, 8V Daytona make the same power as your 16V, big turbo, all the mods Van at the same boost?

Why do most people's SRT4's flat out suck?

The difference is knowing the numbers. Knowing the finite details that seperate individual setups from all the others out there.

With the advent of "do it yourself tuning" more people have made potentially good setups bad than the other way around.

This isn't a post against you, just stating my opinion in general of the current automotive scene. Sad as it may be.

[turbovanman²]

I see your point but in my defence, this is a rare setup with some unusual mods, lol. It has potential I hope, just need to unlock it if its there.


Why does my beater, stock turbo, 8V Daytona make the same power as your 16V, big turbo, all the mods Van at the same boost?

This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless. Yes Brian, you can quote me, ;)

That's why this year, I really did take it slow, even though I had 4 cracks at the whip, which pissed me off-shoulder messed everything up, I never went passed 20 psi intentionally, and pretty well kept it 18 psi, which is uber rare for me.

[bakes]

Simon what was the duration you had the cams ground too? where's your cam card for them?

[turbovanman²]

Simon what was the duration you had the cams ground too? where's your cam card for them?

I have the specs at work. I'll post them up tomorrow.

[shackwrrr]

12 degrees of total timing and still detonation. The only thing I can think of is something is majorly wrong with the flow of the engine somewhere. Your mixture is dropping out somewhere or its just not mixing properly. You probably have a nice dense mixture on one side of the combustion chamber and a really lean one on the other side. That triflow sounds like it should help but something is messed up. Could it be your injector timing is off? maybe your injecting fuel at a closed valve and its just puddling behind the valve.

[8valves]

What's your cranking compression?

[Aries_Turbo]

Could it be your injector timing is off? maybe your injecting fuel at a closed valve and its just puddling behind the valve.

firing it at the back of the valve is normal operation. if the base timing is indeed set to 12 deg it is normal.

Brian

[shackwrrr]

firing it at the back of the valve is normal operation. if the base timing is indeed set to 12 deg it is normal.

Brian

Not if it does it to an extreme. Ive seen a ford with the spout signal about 90 degrees off make the truck run extremely lean.

[Vigo]

at 19.1psi and 6000 rpms, he is running 12deg TOTAL timing on his latest cal.

I almost fell out of my chair.

[turbovanman²]

12 degrees of total timing and still detonation. The only thing I can think of is something is majorly wrong with the flow of the engine somewhere. Your mixture is dropping out somewhere or its just not mixing properly. You probably have a nice dense mixture on one side of the combustion chamber and a really lean one on the other side. That triflow sounds like it should help but something is messed up. Could it be your injector timing is off? maybe your injecting fuel at a closed valve and its just puddling behind the valve.

I took the quench pads out to lower compression, its in my log and the other race thread, :p

I want to get back on the dyno soon, so then if need be, I can change out the head and fix my leaking intake cam seal.


What's your cranking compression?

155 psi.


I almost fell out of my chair.

Why? Because its so low, lol. Well I guess is its just too efficient, my MPG has jumped, :amen:

[Vigo]

Why? Because its so low,

you answered your own question.. lol.

It's not too efficient, it's all mixed up. I guarantee it will run better @6k rpm with more timing when all other issues are cleared up. Just have to figure out what the other issues are.

[turbovanman²]

you answered your own question.. lol.

It's not too efficient, it's all mixed up. I guarantee it will run better @6k rpm with more timing when all other issues are cleared up. Just have to figure out what the other issues are.

It is more efficient hence the need for less timing and better MPG. It runs better than it ever has to 6K, :nod:

[Vigo]

better does not mean right or best..

Find me any comparable engine design that runs best with 12 degrees of total advance at 6k rpm..

[turbovanman²]

better does not mean right or best..

Find me any comparable engine design that runs best with 12 degrees of total advance at 6k rpm..

Does it matter about timing? If it runs, and makes power, what do it matter? I do agree it is low and maybe the head is my issue, we'll soon find out. If I can make power with no timing, then so be it.

Find another setup like this then we can compare! :eyebrows:

[Aries_Turbo]

It is more efficient hence the need for less timing and better MPG. It runs better than it ever has to 6K, :nod:

bullshit. its not more efficient. you f'd up all your natural knock resistant mechanics of the engine so you cant run adequate timing to make good power.

stop making excuses. you did not make wise decisions when building this engine or any other engine in the history of your van since ive known you.

quit getting swooned by every risky power making idea. everytime someone comes up with some new idea, you want to try it even if its obvious that its a stupid idea.

put a stock R/T engine in there. trust me. stock..... maybe some ARP rod bolts, and main studs and head studs, but thats it.

you say you need the extra torque of the 2.5L but i bet that you dont. match the torque production of the engine with the gearing of the transmission.

an audi a4 has a curb weight between 3400 and 3800 over the years. they have 1.8L to 2.0L turbo engines and ive seen a local dude with a 1.8T and a holset run 12's.

quit wasting your time.

brian

[turbovanman²]

bullshit. its not more efficient. you f'd up all your natural knock resistant mechanics of the engine so you cant run adequate timing to make good power.

stop making excuses. you did not make wise decisions when building this engine or any other engine in the history of your van since ive known you.

quit getting swooned by every risky power making idea. everytime someone comes up with some new idea, you want to try it even if its obvious that its a stupid idea.

put a stock R/T engine in there. trust me. stock..... maybe some ARP rod bolts, and main studs and head studs, but thats it.

you say you need the extra torque of the 2.5L but i bet that you dont. match the torque production of the engine with the gearing of the transmission.

an audi a4 has a curb weight between 3400 and 3800 over the years. they have 1.8L to 2.0L turbo engines and ive seen a local dude with a 1.8T and a holset run 12's.

quit wasting your time.

brian

Oh, snippy.

Yeah, your right, YOU GUYS wanted me to go G head and look where it ended me, years of head banging, so thanks, plus on top another year wasted with TU's cal and you guys kept telling me it was fine, it was my setup until low and behold, Rob sold me a cal and fixed, so back at you bud. :mad: :censored:

This is the only experimental setup, show me what else I did that no one else did?

No 2.2 will ever go in my van. I hate to say this but cruising around TD, I saw Una's post about his 2.0L van, he said it was a dog, so screw that.

[Aries_Turbo]

you know i love ya simon, no matter how bad i yell at you for being a dumbass! :)

3.3 springs, your high flow bullet cat (that was clogged), 26" slicks cause they were cheap, etc...

i dont want you to run a g-head. i hate the g-head on a 2.5L. its terrible to tune between knock and high egts.

the only reason i may have told you to stick with a cal is because you immediately blamed the cal when you were doing other goofy stuff that may have been the reason. i remember yelling at you to get a chip burner and id show you how to do cals. you fought me for YEARS!

dude, a 2.0L is UNDERSQUARE. 3.2ish" stroke, 3.44" bore.

a 2.2L is still oversquare. 3.6ish" stroke, 3.44" bore. its still going to make alot of torque. heres the real reason i think you should run a stock r/t motor. you are good at putting engines together. you are bad at making choices on what parts to use. stick to stock and the choice is made for you. plus youll still get full boost at less than 4000k and the engine will be naturally more KNOCK RESISTANT.

or better yet. put a 2.4L in it with those pistons and rods that you got off of ebay. or sell those pistons and rods to me. hehe. :)

Brian

[Aries_Turbo]

some days i want to be an --- a get a heavy long wheelbase van and do a cheap build on it and beat your times just to be a jerk hehehe.

[cordes]

Bucar, are you suggesting that the 2.5 with a TIII head is an inherently bad combination?

[turbovanman²]

you know i love ya simon, no matter how bad i yell at you for being a dumbass! :)

3.3 springs, your high flow bullet cat (that was clogged), 26" slicks cause they were cheap, etc...

i dont want you to run a g-head. i hate the g-head on a 2.5L. its terrible to tune between knock and high egts.

the only reason i may have told you to stick with a cal is because you immediately blamed the cal when you were doing other goofy stuff that may have been the reason. i remember yelling at you to get a chip burner and id show you how to do cals. you fought me for YEARS!

dude, a 2.0L is UNDERSQUARE. 3.2ish" stroke, 3.44" bore.

a 2.2L is still oversquare. 3.6ish" stroke, 3.44" bore. its still going to make alot of torque. heres the real reason i think you should run a stock r/t motor. you are good at putting engines together. you are bad at making choices on what parts to use. stick to stock and the choice is made for you. plus youll still get full boost at less than 4000k and the engine will be naturally more KNOCK RESISTANT.

or better yet. put a 2.4L in it with those pistons and rods that you got off of ebay. or sell those pistons and rods to me. hehe. :)

Brian

3.3 springs, hahaha, big deal.

Bullet cat worked great for a year or so, now I dont' run one, too much of a hassle.

26" slicks work great, even better now I am running the shorter gears, :p

Still, no 2.2 will go in the van, I've driven a 2.2, I would hate it.

2.4L, not much difference that what I have now, so total waste of time, money and energy.

Dude, I wish you could drive it, trust me, apart from the knock at 20 psi, this thing is a rocket around town, its simply too much fun, :nod:


some days i want to be an --- a get a heavy long wheelbase van and do a cheap build on it and beat your times just to be a jerk hehehe.

I double dog dare you, ;)

But you gotta have the same weight and working a/c, hehehe.


Bucar, are you suggesting that the 2.5 with a TIII head is an inherently bad combination?

Yes, that's what he is saying.

[Aries_Turbo]

no im not. im saying that milling the quench pads off of the head, and long stroke of the 2.5L and unproven cams is a bad combo.

brian

[Vigo]

I agree. There's been so many untested variables thrown into this bag that i cant even venture to guess WHY you have to pull timing back to freaking 12 degrees to get it to not knock. That is seriously messed up, and at this point id be looking at that as a warning sign that you need to back WAY up to basics and move forward in a methodical way that teaches you something rather than making you and us more confused every time you adjust something.

Also, a stock motor 2.2 T3 motor in a van went low 13s a while back. Hell, a stockish t2 setup went 13.4 in one tm member's van, and that was many years ago. Gasketmaster went 11s on a stock bottom end. Sure there are weight differences there but the point is everybody knows your motor isnt making anywhere near enough power to justify all of its advantages versus these other motors, and its ALL because of lack of tuning.

Although, i do agree that the 2.2 is a bad idea in a car that heavy. a VERY bad idea. I think the 2.2 in my spirit is pretty damn weak off-boost, and it'd be off-boost a lot more often if i stuck a big turbo on it. And it doesnt make ---- for torque vs the 2.5.. having had both on 15psi on otherwise stock everything.. the 2.5 was making like 40-50% more torque.

[turbovanman²]

I agree. There's been so many untested variables thrown into this bag that i cant even venture to guess WHY you have to pull timing back to freaking 12 degrees to get it to not knock. That is seriously messed up, and at this point id be looking at that as a warning sign that you need to back WAY up to basics and move forward in a methodical way that teaches you something rather than making you and us more confused every time you adjust something.

Also, a stock motor 2.2 T3 motor in a van went low 13s a while back. Hell, a stockish t2 setup went 13.4 in one tm member's van, and that was many years ago. Gasketmaster went 11s on a stock bottom end. Sure there are weight differences there but the point is everybody knows your motor isnt making anywhere near enough power to justify all of its advantages versus these other motors, and its ALL because of lack of tuning.

Although, i do agree that the 2.2 is a bad idea in a car that heavy. a VERY bad idea. I think the 2.2 in my spirit is pretty damn weak off-boost, and it'd be off-boost a lot more often if i stuck a big turbo on it. And it doesnt make ---- for torque vs the 2.5.. having had both on 15psi on otherwise stock everything.. the 2.5 was making like 40-50% more torque.

Your not paying attention, I know I threw things together, was in a rush, that's been also brought up a 100 times, I know its unproven, I am fully aware it needs tuning, I will be hitting the dyno, I've stated a 100 times now if it doesn't work, the head comes off. Comprende?

[8valves]

An EVO's head only requires around 12* total advance. Since everyone is asking for a comparison. Pent roof chamber, similar to the TIII head. Or at least, before any modifications were made.

Is that cranking compression with the cams where you're running them now, or where they were a long time ago?

Cam profile is make or break. And if you already have an intake leak that you mentioned?

It's your choice, but why even go to the dyno? To learn how much power it's not making? You know that now, because you can't go WOT all the way down the track without it freaking out.

Moreso, because the knock threshold on the dyno will be different than on the track, unless you have a very experienced dyno operator on an eddy current style dyno.

Put stock cams in it, fix any issues, try again. :)

[Ondonti]

haha suck it aaron, I wanted to tell him to put in stock cams first :P
Its obvious they are not performing if his timing is so low.
Not having solid numbers to work with is like throwing away your history books and trying to be a politician. Good luck with that.
Chances are that cylinder head is junk. I never saw the pictures. I don't think I want to.

Let it be a lesson to those out there contemplating "strange" mods. Removing the quench pads to lower compression. Bad.
Modifying the quench pads in order to promote flow, potentially good. Good idea to try if you are not sure what you are doing? No. A smarter way to decrease compression the "ghetto" way would be to grind the piston dish so it fits the quench pads of the cylinder head. This loses zero quench and effectively lowers compression. I know some top honda guys spend a lot of time grinding on their pistons for various reasons.
Removing the quench also allows the edge of your piston dish to become a 360 degree hot spot. :love:

Now, I am never worried about lowering compression. I think people need to learn more about the benefits of a mild to high compression setup.
If you are willing to waste Q16 fuel on your low compression motor, you should have left the compression higher.
Lowering compression not only hurts power, but if you lose your quench and start detonating, you are no longer able to run the ignition timing required to maximize power on the low compression motor. Low compression motors can make near the hp numbers of a higher compression motor, if the setup will allow you to run more timing.

[Shadow]

Find me any comparable engine design that runs best with 12 degrees of total advance at 6k rpm..

The Charger ran great with 12-13deg total advance @ 6000rpm years ago when I was running a 50/50 mix of 94 and C10.......
























@ 38 psi boost! :eyebrows:

[bakes]

155 PSI on the current motor set up. i woud like to see 120psi on a tight motor for boost.

[Shadow]

155 PSI on the current motor set up. i woud like to see 120psi on a tight motor for boost.

Damn! That a lot of boost! What turbo you using? :confused:

[turbovanman²]

An EVO's head only requires around 12* total advance. Since everyone is asking for a comparison. Pent roof chamber, similar to the TIII head. Or at least, before any modifications were made.

Is that cranking compression with the cams where you're running them now, or where they were a long time ago?

Cam profile is make or break. And if you already have an intake leak that you mentioned?

It's your choice, but why even go to the dyno? To learn how much power it's not making? You know that now, because you can't go WOT all the way down the track without it freaking out.

Moreso, because the knock threshold on the dyno will be different than on the track, unless you have a very experienced dyno operator on an eddy current style dyno.

Put stock cams in it, fix any issues, try again. :)

I doubt its the cams but if it wasn't so hard to change, I would throw them in a heartbeat, we'll see, its going to the body shop then I'll have some downtime on it.

Why go to the dyno, why did the horse go to the river? :eyebrows:

Intake fixed long ago.

It was 150 last engine build and went up to 170 at one point.


haha suck it aaron, I wanted to tell him to put in stock cams first :P
Its obvious they are not performing if his timing is so low.
Not having solid numbers to work with is like throwing away your history books and trying to be a politician. Good luck with that.
Chances are that cylinder head is junk. I never saw the pictures. I don't think I want to.

Let it be a lesson to those out there contemplating "strange" mods. Removing the quench pads to lower compression. Bad.
Modifying the quench pads in order to promote flow, potentially good. Good idea to try if you are not sure what you are doing? No. A smarter way to decrease compression the "ghetto" way would be to grind the piston dish so it fits the quench pads of the cylinder head. This loses zero quench and effectively lowers compression. I know some top honda guys spend a lot of time grinding on their pistons for various reasons.
Removing the quench also allows the edge of your piston dish to become a 360 degree hot spot. :love:

Now, I am never worried about lowering compression. I think people need to learn more about the benefits of a mild to high compression setup.
If you are willing to waste Q16 fuel on your low compression motor, you should have left the compression higher.
Lowering compression not only hurts power, but if you lose your quench and start detonating, you are no longer able to run the ignition timing required to maximize power on the low compression motor. Low compression motors can make near the hp numbers of a higher compression motor, if the setup will allow you to run more timing.

Yeah, yeah, it was a guess, in a rush as already explained, it was that or not have it running this year, so I chose the latter. I might just put the quench pads back on, or the exhaust side anyhow. With both quench pads, it would have been at 9.5:1.


155 PSI on the current motor set up

Current of course.

[Shadow]

I might just put the quench pads back on, or the exhaust side anyhow. With both quench pads, it would have been at 9.5:1.

What exactly are these quench pads that you can put in or pull out at your leasure?

[turbovanman²]

What exactly are these quench pads that you can put in or pull out at your leasure?

They aren't leisurely. Took me a couple hours to grind them out, I have a friend who can weld them back in, then I'll simply reshape, lol.

[Shadow]

They aren't leisurely. Took me a couple hours to grind them out, I have a friend who can weld them back in, then I'll simply reshape, lol.

OK that makes a little more sense to me. ;)

[turbovanman²]

OK that makes a little more sense to me. ;)

Hahhahaha, :p

[8valves]

haha suck it aaron, I wanted to tell him to put in stock cams first :P
Its obvious they are not performing if his timing is so low.
Not having solid numbers to work with is like throwing away your history books and trying to be a politician. Good luck with that.
Chances are that cylinder head is junk. I never saw the pictures. I don't think I want to.

Let it be a lesson to those out there contemplating "strange" mods. Removing the quench pads to lower compression. Bad.
Modifying the quench pads in order to promote flow, potentially good. Good idea to try if you are not sure what you are doing? No. A smarter way to decrease compression the "ghetto" way would be to grind the piston dish so it fits the quench pads of the cylinder head. This loses zero quench and effectively lowers compression. I know some top honda guys spend a lot of time grinding on their pistons for various reasons.
Removing the quench also allows the edge of your piston dish to become a 360 degree hot spot. :love:

Now, I am never worried about lowering compression. I think people need to learn more about the benefits of a mild to high compression setup.
If you are willing to waste Q16 fuel on your low compression motor, you should have left the compression higher.
Lowering compression not only hurts power, but if you lose your quench and start detonating, you are no longer able to run the ignition timing required to maximize power on the low compression motor. Low compression motors can make near the hp numbers of a higher compression motor, if the setup will allow you to run more timing.

:p:amen:


155 PSI on the current motor set up. i woud like to see 120psi on a tight motor for boost.

Any particular reason why you'd like to see it there?


I doubt its the cams but if it wasn't so hard to change, I would throw them in a heartbeat, we'll see, its going to the body shop then I'll have some downtime on it.

Why go to the dyno, why did the horse go to the river? :eyebrows:

Intake fixed long ago.

It was 150 last engine build and went up to 170 at one point.



Yeah, yeah, it was a guess, in a rush as already explained, it was that or not have it running this year, so I chose the latter. I might just put the quench pads back on, or the exhaust side anyhow. With both quench pads, it would have been at 9.5:1.



Current of course.

Where is your calculated compression now. Of course, I'm assuming you CC'd the chamber to figure yoru final comression if the goal with removing them was lowering the compression.

My guess would be when your compression "went up" your cam timing was in a different location. If your leakdown test is good, and compression is calculated at 8.5:1, and you were able to achieve 170 psi cranking compression, it sounds to me like your cams were trapping cylinder pressure with their orientation. That would be a big key to detonation issues.

Just because you got it down to 155 doesn't mean the cam timing events still don't promote high cylinder pressures, just less than where you had them adjust before perhaps.

What I'm saying is, in case you weren't sure, cam events will royally screw up a tune up. And I'm talking about the timing events you can't control with gears. THe ones that are ground into the cams

[turbovanman²]

Where is your calculated compression now. Of course, I'm assuming you CC'd the chamber to figure yoru final comression if the goal with removing them was lowering the compression.

My guess would be when your compression "went up" your cam timing was in a different location. If your leakdown test is good, and compression is calculated at 8.5:1, and you were able to achieve 170 psi cranking compression, it sounds to me like your cams were trapping cylinder pressure with their orientation. That would be a big key to detonation issues.

Just because you got it down to 155 doesn't mean the cam timing events still don't promote high cylinder pressures, just less than where you had them adjust before perhaps.

What I'm saying is, in case you weren't sure, cam events will royally screw up a tune up. And I'm talking about the timing events you can't control with gears. THe ones that are ground into the cams


When I cc'ed everything, I would have been at 9.5:1, as stated, I had run out of time, so rather than port another head which would would have put me at 8:1, and spend money I didn't have, I took a gamble and removed the quench pads, lowering me to 8.1:1. This head is ported.

When I checked last, 155 psi, with the cams at 2 deg's advanced.

Yep, I do realize cam timing affects compression, and timing events, ;)

I talked to my grinder and he said the way they are ground and the duration, which I have to dig up, won't cause detonation and he said he's never had a complaint before, so this leads me to believe it is my quench pads. Seriously, if I could figure out how to easily change the ex cam, I would. The intake cam is cake.

The 150-170 was last years engine, with 2 different heads.

[Pat]

When I cc'ed everything, I would have been at 9.5:1, as stated, I had run out of time, so rather than port another head which would would have put me at 8:1, and spend money I didn't have, I took a gamble and removed the quench pads, lowering me to 8.1:1. This head is ported..


What pistons are you running? What the dish volume?

[4cefedomni]

Here's a thought. The cam that is in there is a "triflow" cam. Which stages the opening of the 2 intake valves to create a swirl in the chamber. When you centerlined your cam did you centerline it to one of the intake lobes or did you centerline it to both?
Cause if you centerlined it to one or the other lobes that would put it way off from the actual centerline of the cam.

[turbovanman²]

What pistons are you running? What the dish volume?

Forged JE's, I think 9cc's.



Here's a thought. The cam that is in there is a "triflow" cam. Which stages the opening of the 2 intake valves to create a swirl in the chamber. When you centerlined your cam did you centerline it to one of the intake lobes or did you centerline it to both?
Cause if you centerlined it to one or the other lobes that would put it way off from the actual centerline of the cam.

SHITT, that could be it, I didn't even clue in, :banghead:

I used the first lobe, I'll call the grinder right now and see.

EDIT-Just checked, first lobe is straight up, phew.

He want's to chat about them on Monday, he's just leaving for the weekend.

[Aries_Turbo]

ported schmorted.

put a stock head on there. youll make more power than you are now with the crappy ported messed up head.

if anything, youd want to add more quench, and get a custom piston to match and bias the squish toward the exhaust valves.

Brian

[turbovanman²]

ported schmorted.

put a stock head on there. youll make more power than you are now with the crappy ported messed up head.

if anything, youd want to add more quench, and get a custom piston to match and bias the squish toward the exhaust valves.

Brian

Well I've got like a dozen votes for cams, one for the head, :eyebrows:

If I put the exhaust pad back, it will be exhaust biased, :p

[Aries_Turbo]

Well I've got like a dozen votes for cams, one for the head, :eyebrows:

If I put the exhaust pad back, it will be exhaust biased, :p

i vote for completely stock head plus cams. not just for the head.

you got the bias exactly backwards or you dont know how quench works.

Brian

[crusty shadow]

i vote to take simons die grinder away before he damages anymore rare parts.
oh and stock head and cams. ;)

[Pat]

You sure about 9cc dish? Are they 8v style 2.5 pistons?

[turbovanman²]

i vote for completely stock head plus cams. not just for the head.

you got the bias exactly backwards or you dont know how quench works.

Brian

I do, you want the quench on the exhaust side to promote swirl as it comes OUT of the intake valve facing the exhaust side.

New head guy also said the same.

Stock head, bah!


i vote to take simons die grinder away before he damages anymore rare parts.
oh and stock head and cams. ;)

Why, die grinders are fun, :evil:

[Shadow]

Still, no 2.2 will go in the van, I've driven a 2.2, I would hate it.

From what I can tell, you've never had a tuned P/T period, 2.2 or 2.5. So how do you know that a proper running 2.2 wouldn't Rock your world? ;)

[turbovanman²]

From what I can tell, you've never had a tuned P/T period, 2.2 or 2.5. So how do you know that a proper running 2.2 wouldn't Rock your world? ;)

I've driven a 2.2 turbo and it was meh, now a 2.2 in my slug of a van would suck around town. Like I keep saying, I rarely hit boost in town. When Don gets here, I'll take him for a drive and he can report back. ;)

[Aries_Turbo]

I do, you want the quench on the exhaust side to promote swirl as it comes OUT of the intake valve facing the exhaust side.

New head guy also said the same.

you and your head guy are wrong. if you bias the quench, you want the larger quench pad on the intake valve side of the head as well as the hardware to create swirl.

when the piston comes up, its going to create swirl with the mixture as it shoves it over to the exhaust side.

Frank agrees (he is on the phone right now)

Brian

[Vigo]

An EVO's head only requires around 12* total advance. Since everyone is asking for a comparison. Pent roof chamber, similar to the TIII head. Or at least, before any modifications were made.

Thanks, i did not know that.


@ 38 psi boost!

Zing!!

[turbovanman²]

you and your head guy are wrong. if you bias the quench, you want the larger quench pad on the intake valve side of the head as well as the hardware to create swirl.

when the piston comes up, its going to create swirl with the mixture as it shoves it over to the exhaust side.

Frank agrees (he is on the phone right now)

Brian

Hmmmmmm, interesting.

Of course Frank agree's with you, you 2 are gazers, :p

[bakes]

I just can't believe the amount of26301in this tread:evil:

[Ondonti]

Like I said above, Grind the pistons when you want to decrease compression.


But above all, why would you ruin TIII heads instead of buying the right pistons? Why don't you trade a good TIII head for the right pistons if you can't afford them?
Your van would be faster with 9.5:1 compression. I know you don't believe it but you could make 450whp with 9.5:1 on pump gas with your turbo, maybe more. No Q16 mix in, etc.
Instead, you make 330hp on a good day, and 250hp when it matters.'


If you really want to lower compression and be a cheapo, put BOTH quench pads back to OEM stock, grind on the piston as much as you safely can without messing up quench areas.
Then, whatever your compression is, tune the car for that compression level.
If its 9.0:1, you can make 500-550whp on pump 92 with that turbo.

Take a step away from everything you ever learned from people with slow TD's back in the day. Its all wrong. ALL completely wrong and useless garbage information. If you have not noticed, the Old dogs often lied about their cars anyways, because they made money from being faster then others. Their cars were fast and everyone else listening to them (but not close personal friends) was always slow. Even the shops were like that.

The TIII is a modern style 4 valve cylinder head. The only think you need help from anyone with a 2.2/2.5 dodge for making HP is learning a bit about the capabilities if your bottom end. Nothing else they have to say is important or "special." You would be better off talking to DSM or EVO guys when it comes to making power on that motor.

Before I ask how many turbo builds this "expert" has done, I will say that most DSM/Honda/Nissan guys who happen to be the kings of 4 cyl, run stock or near stock cylinder heads, and the only thing they would grind is the ports. Chambers just get a polish, if anything. We are talking the top high hp guys, not the people whose cars can't make a WOT pass.
There is a reason the cylinder heads have the design they do. When you turbocharge something or increase the HP levels, the need for good quench increases!

[shackwrrr]

Buschur has gone 8's on these heads, pretty self explanatory.

https://secure.buschurracing.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=193_194_289&products_id=1434&osCsid=f13cf97f8d3d14921ce2a487888adcb

bigger quench on the intake side, and well the quench pads are still there.

and before you go find a pic of a H22 head that doesn't have any pads, here is a pic of the piston they use that has quench built in
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c42/exospeedracing/Picture237.jpg

Simon every time someone gives a legit argument about your build that you don't like, you use the :p smiley. Every time I see that I think 7 year old girl with boys picking on her.

[crusty shadow]

after reading those last few posts im getting an image of mr simon driving his van around with a wig on and pigtails.....

[turbovanman²]

Like I said above, Grind the pistons when you want to decrease compression.


But above all, why would you ruin TIII heads instead of buying the right pistons? Why don't you trade a good TIII head for the right pistons if you can't afford them?
Your van would be faster with 9.5:1 compression. I know you don't believe it but you could make 450whp with 9.5:1 on pump gas with your turbo, maybe more. No Q16 mix in, etc.
Instead, you make 330hp on a good day, and 250hp when it matters.'


If you really want to lower compression and be a cheapo, put BOTH quench pads back to OEM stock, grind on the piston as much as you safely can without messing up quench areas.
Then, whatever your compression is, tune the car for that compression level.
If its 9.0:1, you can make 500-550whp on pump 92 with that turbo.

Take a step away from everything you ever learned from people with slow TD's back in the day. Its all wrong. ALL completely wrong and useless garbage information. If you have not noticed, the Old dogs often lied about their cars anyways, because they made money from being faster then others. Their cars were fast and everyone else listening to them (but not close personal friends) was always slow. Even the shops were like that.

The TIII is a modern style 4 valve cylinder head. The only think you need help from anyone with a 2.2/2.5 dodge for making HP is learning a bit about the capabilities if your bottom end. Nothing else they have to say is important or "special." You would be better off talking to DSM or EVO guys when it comes to making power on that motor.

Before I ask how many turbo builds this "expert" has done, I will say that most DSM/Honda/Nissan guys who happen to be the kings of 4 cyl, run stock or near stock cylinder heads, and the only thing they would grind is the ports. Chambers just get a polish, if anything. We are talking the top high hp guys, not the people whose cars can't make a WOT pass.
There is a reason the cylinder heads have the design they do. When you turbocharge something or increase the HP levels, the need for good quench increases!

Brent, buddy, I am tired of explaining why I did what I did, if you don't understand by now, you won't. :( I won't explain it anymore, but I will say, I did what I did as I was on a time schedule, my injury pretty well ruined my spring and summer, it was this or the van didn't run, I felt I made the right choice, you guys disagree, fine, I wanted to race, my son wanted me out there, nuff said. How many of you sat at home bench racing because their crap wasn't ready? BRENT!! So while you guys are busting my chops, I was at the track racing.

The head was near its life cycle anyways so I don't feel bad, I have 3 more, :p

As for my combo, yes, it needs work, I don't disagree, now the season is over, I can hit the dyno, or pull the head off and either put another back on or fix this one, the welding will be free then simply my time to reshape them, big whoop.

Maybe I'll put the quench pads back on and see how she runs at 9.5:1, who knows, it may work, these cams do bleed off compression, :eyebrows:

I'll also add, my last tank got 17mpg beating on it, that's an increase of roughly 4 mpg over my last 3 engine combo's.


Buschur has gone 8's on these heads, pretty self explanatory.

https://secure.buschurracing.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=193_194_289&products_id=1434&osCsid=f13cf97f8d3d14921ce2a487888adcb

bigger quench on the intake side, and well the quench pads are still there.

and before you go find a pic of a H22 head that doesn't have any pads, here is a pic of the piston they use that has quench built in
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c42/exospeedracing/Picture237.jpg

Simon every time someone gives a legit argument about your build that you don't like, you use the :p smiley. Every time I see that I think 7 year old girl with boys picking on her.

See above about my build, take it or leave it. Thanks for the pics.

You guys giving me grief, kinda funny as most things we have today were found by accident or experimentation, going against what everyone said was the right thing to do. Yunick, Garlits, Prudomme all did things they shouldn't have. I am done with explaining this engine to you guys.




after reading those last few posts im getting an image of mr simon driving his van around with a wig on and pigtails.....

Shhhhhhhh, you'll give away my secret, :lol:

[turbovanman²]

Wow, its so quiet in here I can hear crickets, :lol:

[BadAssPerformance]

Take a step away from everything you ever learned from people with slow TD's back in the day. Its all wrong. ALL completely wrong and useless garbage information. If you have not noticed, the Old dogs often lied about their cars anyways, because they made money from being faster then others. Their cars were fast and everyone else listening to them (but not close personal friends) was always slow. Even the shops were like that.

Not sure who you are refering too, but really dont care... just sorry you think this way and are ignorant of the hard work some of us old dogs have done.