How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

[DrunkenMessiah]

I'm going with a nicely rebuilt 2.2 common block for the new motor in my '87 LeBaron. The current motor is grenaded, but it is attached to a decent A520. Right before I got the car it got a T3 pressure plate, new throw-out bearing and stock Omni clutch installed all of which saw very few miles of use. I'm thinking to beef up my transmission setup I'll be adding a chrome-moly bearing retainer plate (to prevent flexing) and a four-puck ceramic clutch disk (for sick-nasty launches).

This is the friction disk in question:

http://www.fwdperformance.com/Store/Product.asp?IDCatalog=49&ProductID=993

Anyone out there use one of these on the street? I don't need something tame, just livable. I've already gotten used to the fairly significant clutch pedal effort imposed by the T3 pressure plate. Would this combined with the mentioned clutch disk be aggressively fun or just a too-grabby chattering nightmare on the street? I've driven a few fairly aggressive manual transmission cars. My old man got the clutch on his M3 replaced with a 6-puck ceramic unit and its not bad at all (though that car has a hydraulic clutch pedal which makes things easier). How about the one I've got picked out?

Also, any recommendations on where to buy a stand-alone clutch disk? I find that because manufacturers don't want idiots pairing a brand new friction disk with a worn out pressure plate and throw-out bearing they tend to sell clutches only as complete kits. The one at FWD seems kindof overpriced given that you can get a higher-quality ACT 6-puck clutch disk for just over $100, just can't find them for the transaxle I have :-(

[glhs727]

I drove a 4 puck on several daily drivers without an issue. I use a 6 puck ceramic on my current daily driver.

[DodgeZ]

The pucks chew up the flywheel and PP quickly

[Shadow]

I drove on an FWD 4 puck in the Charger for over 5 years. When I took it apart the wear really wasn't that bad. Although I did a 500 mile break-in.

I've seen ppl go through a disc in less than a year and chew the Sh!T out of their flywheel and PP. Wasn't bad to drive at all, just need to leave at slightly higher RPM.

[DrunkenMessiah]

Heh, well I could see where the harder ceramic friction material could be tough on the flywheel and pressure plate. I suppose a lot of that comes down to how talented you are with a manual tranny. I tend to rev-match quite well on the upshifts as well as down-shifts. With the flywheel and input shaft spinning at pretty near the same RPM each time the clutch is re-engaged the only time its gonna see major wear is when coming away from a standing start (or hard launches :D). This is how my old man taught me to drive, he's managed to get 150,000 miles out of the original clutch on his '97 M3 and he doesn't exactly drive without aggression! (Also, he didn't buy it new, who knows how poorly the yahoo who owned it before shifted).

So as long as someone out there has gotten good wear characteristics out of one then I can do it too. I'm going to have to do a fairly long and gentle break-in period as my re-built motor will have all new rings and bearings. Because of that I'll be babying the thing around for the first couple hundred miles anyway.

Any opinions on sourcing a stand-alone performance-oriented clutch disk for the "small spline" A525/A520/A555 transaxles? I'd really like a 6 puck but all I've managed to find is FWDP's stand-alone 4.

[Shadow]

Are you looking for solid hub or sprung? Cause the Dodge sprung 6 puc ACT discs I've looked at are more like 150.00 and that would come from mass production. Solid hub would be cheaper, 120 ish.

[Mopar318]

I drive with a 6 puck ceramic TU clutch. Its not bad to drive at one you get used to it. pedal effor is the same as stock. You do have to leave at a high rpm, other wise you will shake the crap out of your car. I usually give it a quick rev to get the rpms up to 2k, rpm and feather the clutch.

[DrunkenMessiah]

Are you looking for solid hub or sprung? Cause the Dodge sprung 6 puc ACT discs I've looked at are more like 150.00 and that would come from mass production. Solid hub would be cheaper, 120 ish.

Definitely want a sprung hub, a solid hub would be way too chattery on the street. I really like ACT clutches but couldn't find any that fit my car. Perhaps they made clutches for the later large-spline A523/A568 transaxles, I have not seen any for the small spline units. I got excited when I saw this:

http://www.autopartsauthority.com/parts_catalog/index.php?N=5558&Nr=OR(AND(make:Chrysler,model:LeBaron,year:1987),A ND(universal:1))&Vi=10006%204294963358%201589&mk=Chrysler&md=LeBaron&y=1987&No=0&Npp=10

But they list the fit for engine/chassis as "universal" which I know can't be right.


"more revs from a standing start" sounds to be the general consensus, I can definitely live with that.

[Vigo]

its possible to be COMPLETELY smooth with a 4 puck. BUT if you dont give it enough rpm it will shake like a mofo.

So it really depends on how often you drive it..

Like in the aries (4 puck) when i drive it often i get used to it, remember the extra rpm, and its smooth.. but if i get out of it for a few weeks or a month, the next time i try to move it i usually slam/bang my way into motion and go 'oh yeah, gotta remember that extra rpm'. Lol

[Shadow]

Definitely want a sprung hub, a solid hub would be way too chattery on the street. I really like ACT clutches but couldn't find any that fit my car. Perhaps they made clutches for the later large-spline A523/A568 transaxles, I have not seen any for the small spline units. I got excited when I saw this:

http://www.autopartsauthority.com/parts_catalog/index.php?N=5558&Nr=OR(AND(make:Chrysler,model:LeBaron,year:1987),A ND(universal:1))&Vi=10006%204294963358%201589&mk=Chrysler&md=LeBaron&y=1987&No=0&Npp=10

But they list the fit for engine/chassis as "universal" which I know can't be right.


"more revs from a standing start" sounds to be the general consensus, I can definitely live with that.

Ha, universal sprung hub 6 puck for 111.00, no wonder you were drooling!

[turbodaytona87]

I drive daily on a 4-puck, and have for a few thousand miles. Its really not bad.

[86Shelby]

I've driven with 2 of them in my R/T. Niether were real bad to drive, chattery and the extra RPM from a stop that everyone else is reporting. I really like the 6 puck from TU in the car now, a bit smoother engagement than the 4 puck and it grabs just as well as the 4 puck with the slicks. If I hadn't planned on running the car on slicks at the track I would have gone with a full faced clutch and saved some cash most likely

[OmniLuvr]

well, how bout this

how much pwer do you PLAN on making?

what other mods do you have?

and what do you plan on doing with the car? of coarse DD, but do you plan on takin it to the track, AND run slicks?

[DrunkenMessiah]

well, how bout this

how much pwer do you PLAN on making?

what other mods do you have?

and what do you plan on doing with the car? of coarse DD, but do you plan on takin it to the track, AND run slicks?

It is to be a daily driver. I might take it down to the 1/8th mile every now and then but I can never see myself dropping cash on a good set of slicks. However, I plan to run two separate sets of wheels/tires for summer/winter duty, so the street tires I do run will be fairly grippy. The motor is basically a juiced-up TII jobbie based on a 2.2 common block, stock intercooler (for now) and custom calibration from boostbutton. 12 pounds of boost with 16 pounds of over-boost.

The thing is, I believe I've scored a Mexican "C" block with all-forged internals. In the near future the engine will see significant porting, polishing and bigger injectors so that I can push my TII turbo to the edge of its efficiency map. I may even go beyond that well before it is time to change the clutch again. The TI Omni unit I have now was gonna be inadequate no matter what, but I wanted to go with something a little stronger than necessary to support future mods.

[Turbo224]

Its very livable, but certainly not comfortable. I have a four puck in my R/T and its really not bad.

[OmniLuvr]

well, with a stock turbo, and no porting, i cant see you getting over 250 hp, and if you dont plan on using slicks, i dont see you needing anything more then a 6 puck, or even a stockish setup like your running now. my friend just picked up a sprung hub for puck for his charger from a place called clutchnet or clutch.net? i think it was only 120, but its the same scenario as everyone else is sayin, higher rpms or there will be some shakin.

i was making 220ish hp in my omni on a used t2/t3 clutch for over a year, only thing that made it slip was the external oil leak from my head directly onto the clutch. i know there is a pretty big weight diff from an omni to a daytona, but im just sayin. the t2/t3 clutch held up nicely in my tona also, but i only overboosted a couple times to 18psi (with no problems) and ran a constant 14 all the time.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Screw the puck, go w/ a HD full disc. I have a 6-puck in my Daytona, and it's not really bad, but not really great either. If you don't get the revs high enough, or if you don't get it just right, it shakes the hell out of the car, feels like the motor mounts are about to rip out. Now that I'm used to it it's not bad, I can even let it out smoothly at a fairly low rpm, but it's still kind of a pain sometimes. Next one I get will be a full-face disc.

[DrunkenMessiah]

well, with a stock turbo, and no porting, i cant see you getting over 250 hp, and if you dont plan on using slicks, i dont see you needing anything more then a 6 puck, or even a stockish setup like your running now. my friend just picked up a sprung hub for puck for his charger from a place called clutchnet or clutch.net? i think it was only 120, but its the same scenario as everyone else is sayin, higher rpms or there will be some shakin.

i was making 220ish hp in my omni on a used t2/t3 clutch for over a year, only thing that made it slip was the external oil leak from my head directly onto the clutch. i know there is a pretty big weight diff from an omni to a daytona, but im just sayin. the t2/t3 clutch held up nicely in my tona also, but i only overboosted a couple times to 18psi (with no problems) and ran a constant 14 all the time.

If I had a proper T2/T3 setup I wouldn't be worrying about a clutch at all! The better 1700 lbs of clamping force from the T3 pressure plate tends to make a T2 clutch perform very well.

Problem is, the guy who had the car before me replaced the clutch kit right before I purchased the car. Because of some confusion between large spline/small spline clutches and a sortof mail-order parts-return merry-go-round he ended up with a baffling T1/T3 clutch kit! He is certain that it is a T1 Omni clutch disk. Is there any way to visually tell the difference between a stock T1 and stock T2 clutch disk? Perhaps he is incorrect. He was a good guy, but could be fuzzy on mechanical details (reason why I got the car, he couldn't make it run).


Screw the puck, go w/ a HD full disc. I have a 6-puck in my Daytona, and it's not really bad, but not really great either. If you don't get the revs high enough, or if you don't get it just right, it shakes the hell out of the car, feels like the motor mounts are about to rip out. Now that I'm used to it it's not bad, I can even let it out smoothly at a fairly low rpm, but it's still kind of a pain sometimes. Next one I get will be a full-face disc.

I have been looking everywhere for full-faced higher-than-OEM-performance clutches that are sold on their own without a pressure plate. This is really my ideal solution, but I cannot find one anywhere! Do you have any suggestions on where to source one?

[cordes]

I may be wrong, but I don't believe there is a difference between the TI and TII disks. They are the same dia if I'm not mistaken.

[DrunkenMessiah]

I may be wrong, but I don't believe there is a difference between the TI and TII disks. They are the same dia if I'm not mistaken.

Oh, well..... Sh1t. If that's the case then all this scrounging may have been for nothing.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Yeah T1 and T2 disc is the same. FWIW I ran an Advance Auto clutch kit on my GLHS (and in the Daytona for a while) for 2+ years at 15 psi, it never gave up.

[turbodaytona87]

I ran a parts store clutch and the hub cracked, I replaced it with a T2/T3. My four puck is from Clutchnet.

[ShadowFromHell]

Ummm... From what I have seen there IS a difference between a T1 and T2 disc. Physically, they look different. The T1 unit is smooth, and the T2 unit has groves or vents in it. Performance wise, I put together a T1/T3 for a buddy because its what we had and it would slip at 18psi in 3rd at the track. Ive had T2/T3's in a couple shadows and actually put a used one in that same daytona and it didn't slip. Now, at the same time I know napa and a few others show the same part number for a T1 disc and a T2 disc. I think that has more to do with the fact they are interchangeable and doesn't reflect the factory standards.

Maybe Cindy can chime in here? Ive bought both my T2/T3's from her. They are cheap too, last one was like 180 bucks?

[DrunkenMessiah]

Ummm... From what I have seen there IS a difference between a T1 and T2 disc. Physically, they look different. The T1 unit is smooth, and the T2 unit has groves or vents in it. Performance wise, I put together a T1/T3 for a buddy because its what we had and it would slip at 18psi in 3rd at the track. Ive had T2/T3's in a couple shadows and actually put a used one in that same daytona and it didn't slip. Now, at the same time I know napa and a few others show the same part number for a T1 disc and a T2 disc. I think that has more to do with the fact they are interchangeable and doesn't reflect the factory standards.

Maybe Cindy can chime in here? Ive bought both my T2/T3's from her. They are cheap too, last one was like 180 bucks?

Yea, I'd prolly be fine with a T2/T3. I've got a brand new T3 pressure plate and throw-out bearing along with what the previous owner was sure is a T1 omni clutch. I thought that the T2 clutch disk was semi-metallic, with little shreds of copper thrown in with the organic friction material. If I could score a T2 clutch disk all by itself that would surely do me just fine.

[Ondonti]

Its wrong to say a solid hub is going to chatter. That really has nothing to do with the sprung hub. The only thing spring hub really does that you can notice is slam back and forth with your transmission slop, and maybe not break the tires loose when you slam the clutch out too fast at low revs.

Chatter is all about the pucks material and the surface.

Heavy shaking is usually crap motor mounts combined with either low rpm or bad material. My daily is super smooth on a clutcnnet 4 puck until I completely let out the clutch, then the side mounts bang around.

I don't bother with resurfacing stuff because ceramic just eats things. It can cause more chatter to not resurface properly if something was damaged by heat.

[DodgeZ]

It can cause more chatter to not resurface properly if something was damaged by heat.

reference?

[puppet]

There is a difference between a T1 and T2 disc. I think the easiest way to tell is by hub spring count .. all T1's I've seen have 6 small springs (Luk), the T2's have 4 large springs (Sachs/Valeo).

[cordes]

There is a difference between a T1 and T2 disc. I think the easiest way to tell is by hub spring count .. all T1's I've seen have 6 small springs (Luk), the T2's have 4 large springs (Sachs/Valeo).

interesting. What difference is there other than the number of springs in the hub?

[ShadowFromHell]

Did you find a T2 disc? I think I have a decent used used one. Let me know.

[Shadow]

interesting. What difference is there other than the number of springs in the hub?

The springs in the T2 disc are Way thicker!

[puppet]

^ .. yep

[Vigo]

need pics..

[DodgeZ]

http://boostedmopar.com/forums/showthread.php?7185-FAQ-Differences-in-t2-t3-clutches.

[Vigo]

Hmm.. i see the differences in the disc (visual differences at least), but im wondering about the pressure plates. Ive had bunches of turbo pressure plates and have never been able to tell them apart because i usually didnt have them all out at the same time.

[puppet]

The real Sachs plate (MF_124)? is the only plate they ever offered for these (turbo) cars from what they've told me. (that's for their T2 clutches and their T3 offerings) No mention of clamping force differences either ... I asked that too.

[Polygon]

I have a 4 puck in the LeBaron. If I drove it every day I could probably use it more smoothly. I wish it were smoother but it's perfectly livable as long as the PP isn't too heavy.

[slasky]

I have had a 4 puck ceramic and blue TU pressure plate in my charger for a few years. It is not bad to drive on the street once you get used to it. It is a little grabby but OK to deal with. I just pulled my motor out and the clutch, Fly wheel, and pressure plate hardly show any wear. That is after several hundred burnouts and launches at the track.

[Mudman]

Here is a pic of my (I'm assuming factory) old TII clutch disc.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w255/Lancer_Shelby/Rebuild/100_0494.jpg

It was wearing thin so I bought a barely used clutch from somebody and he said it's a TII disc, however it doesn't have the grooves in it.

[MiniMopar]

The stock clutches I've pulled were made by Sachs. I don't think T1/T2 has anything to do with the number of springs in disc. Maybe the early T1s (pre-89) were different. The guy behind the parts counter at the dealer when I ordered the last Mopar clutch I ever bought (made from a '91 T3 PP and an 87 "T2" disc) said the T1 and T2 disc were the same P/N...at least for 87. This was circa 1999.

I beat the snot out of that clutch and it held except for the springs. They got really sloppy and noisy. I replaced it with another T2/T3 with an LUK disc and PP (from Relentless Performance) and it did not hold as well as the Sachs. It was fine on the street, but it would not hold if I launched it really hard. The one time I took it to the track it got quite glazed and took several 100 miles of gentle street driving to get it grippy again.