Here's a story that might SWAY your opinion!

[Shadow]

As some of you may or may not know, I have been busy AGAIN this season! Missed SDAC....again, haven't even made it to the local track this year. Well this past wknd was the last race wknd of the year around here and to he!! if I was going to miss that! After all, we've got a new clutch set-up to prove out here!

So I've been getting the Charger ready over the last week or so, wanted to dyno to see how far into the 500's I was before going out and Really turning up the wick! :eyebrows: No dice as they were too booked to take me. :mad:

Got a launch control unit and wanted to install it in the car, but info came too late from manufacturer to finish.

Wanted to dble check my AFR's @ 35psi before running and even ran out of time for that! Just glad I was able to make the only TD meet in 2 or 3 years around here and get the new clutch combo broken in and ready to go! lol

So where was I? Right, I was getting the car ready to run and I had concidered taking the front sway bar off to loose some weight. I had tried this years ago and it really had no effect one way or the other. (might have actually helped back then, because the track was pretty uneven several years ago)

Well I decided to leave well enough alone because I really don't like removing weight from over the tires, nough said!

We headed out to the track Sat morning, wanted to get there bright and early, go through tech and be the first ones running and Really take advantage of the full day of TnT to get things set up and really shake the car down. After all, after trapping 136mph last year on a slipping clutch at only 35 psi with the new F4 cam, I really wasn't sure what was going to happen when all that power actually made it's way to the tires!

Was a beautiful fall day, temp was going to be good (a little cold the night before as you may have seen in Kreels thread) and very little wind.

The birds were singing and I was a little nervous to be launching the car on a solid hub 650+WTQ capable clutch on 26" slicks for the first time. Specially after reading about Ondonti's snapped axels! (remember, I've never broke an axel in the Charger, just sheared a solid U-joint in half!)

Well the place was dead, damn, I was going to prob get 20+ passes in, Great!

I pull into the burnbox, crank the e-brake and let'r buck in 2nd gear, bouncing off the 7400rpm limiter and through my helmet and ear plugs I hear something. Like a clunk? I stop where I am expecting to not be able to move forward (broken axel already?) but everything seems fine.

I pull to the line and tell myself to take it easy, I'm starting the slick hard @ 12psi to get some slip, slow engage and Then let it go! Tree starts to drop, I mash the gas, let out the clutch AND spin the slicks through 1st. I nail 2nd and holy Freak! Never felt the car grab clutch like that before....Ever! Almost felt violent, but after it hit I roast the slick and am heading toward the left gaurd rail like I'm on ice! I get out of it, correct, get back into in and into third, then 4th and I'm through the traps.

Thought I saw some smoke on the left side of the car up top, but everything seems normal.

There's a guy waving me over on the return rd and he looks kind of panicky.

Did you break? Drop fluid?

Nope, cars cool, everything seems fine.

He looks bewildered, that was an awfull lot of smoke that came from your car!

So they send a crew to walk the track to check for carnage as I return to the pits. My timeslip says 12.0 @ 128mph and I'm thinking, did I really take it That easy? MPH really looks down.

The bro gets to the car and the first words from his mouth, Head gasket! It's gone, isn't it? Not to my knowlege, Is there any smoke coming from the car.

Brent reiterates the same thing I heard from the tech, there was a bit of smoke and then when you hit 4th it just billowed out of the car?

WTF? I get out of the car and the first thing I notice is my left front tire slightly forward and a couple nasty grooves in the slick. I take a closer look and see that the slick was trying to weld itself to the front inner fender and my plastic fender liner is melted to S#IT! Well that explains the smoke!

So, I take a look under the car and my "old style" A-arm, ya know, the ones I upgrade for everyone but myself, is broken clean through the back pivot rod!

Damn! That's it, I'm done. The day is shot and it serves me right for waiting till the last race wknd to try to put it all together!

I stare at the car for a minuite or two and Q what to do. Take it easy for the rest of the wknd? Cabins only 15min from the track, but my shop is over 100 miles away.

Well, he!!, I need some answers, cause I'm not buying that I just up and broke that A-arm because of the solid hub disc. Those arms have well over 300 hard launch passes on them and I'm willing to bet that it was half cracked through to begin with!

We load up the Charger and book it to the shop. Pull the carnage apart and take a look. Sure enough, the flat portion of the rod was cracked and rusted at least 1/2 way through and then comes the clean break.

So the arm would have broken last year If I would have had a clutch that wasn't slipping.

Darndest thing is that swaybar, ya know, the one I was going to remove!

Funny how things turn out, it was the worst day I've ever had at the track, first time we had to leave because of breakage. Yet it was a miricle that I pulled off a full pass with that arm broken and 500+WHP on slicks pulling that left suspention forward and somehow it stayed together!

The swaybar is what saved me! If I had removed that bar there would have been nothing holding that a-arm back. Pretty sure it would have literaly drove Through the front end and pivoted on the front joint and who knows where I'd be? Rolled? Don't know!

What I do know is I'm deff going to upgrade the suspension over the winter and will prob run a sway bar just for extra safty! This Should make Everyone who bought the upgraded crossmembers from Rich Real happy!

A word of caution, anyone running high HP in one of these cars with old syle a-arms, keep the swaybar in there at the track and keep and eye on the back rod/pivot!

As s#itty as it was to have to leave on the last wknd of racing, I knew something sometime would give. I still concider the lucky streek alive and well knowing this could have been a lot worse!

[Pat]

Wow. Glad you are OK.

[54inches]

Excellent story. Can't wait to see what you run with suspension on the car.

[ohiorob]

Thank god you didn't get hurt. things could of gone real bad. I took out my sway bar last winter but I'm not going to put it back in. I think the rust is what did you in. I'm going to check my front end this winter. you got me very concerned .

[RoadWarrior222]

As I read to "clunk" while torqued up, but no instant carnage, my mind was running though suspension stuff like, K-frame crack, split or loose rear bushing... I've had a few control arms on and off but I've never seen one rusted at that rear pivot pin... it could be however, that the bushing was a bit loose and that huge washer helped saw through it, or that corrosion from that washer kinda electrolytically ate into it, because I've seen those go pretty bad.

Good job you had your steering rack on tight too, lots of folks come across theirs being loose or the bolts rusting out of the K frame, if the rack or tie rod had let go you'd have gone straight into the wall. When ya think of all the nasty ways that could have ended, you could say you lucked out.

[Shadow]

Pics of the carnage......

Too bad I didn't get any before I took it apart. Amazingly everything moved back in place and the a-arm was only 1/4" or so seperated. Again, that swaybar was a Godsend! :nod:

[Kreel]

That was pretty crazy! I was on the return road when you started heading toward the rail. By the top of the track there was nothing but smoke behind you. I thought for sure the motor kicked it in :yuck:

[Shadow]

Thank god you didn't get hurt. things could of gone real bad. I took out my sway bar last winter but I'm not going to put it back in. I think the rust is what did you in. I'm going to check my front end this winter. you got me very concerned .

The part wasn't "rusty" if that's what you think I ment. What I ment was I could tell by the surface browning (rust) on 1/2 of the break that it was like that before I ran. I just finished it off! (you can see the clean part of the break in the pics)

[Shadow]

As I read to "clunk" while torqued up, but no instant carnage, my mind was running though suspension stuff like, K-frame crack, split or loose rear bushing... I've had a few control arms on and off but I've never seen one rusted at that rear pivot pin... it could be however, that the bushing was a bit loose and that huge washer helped saw through it, or that corrosion from that washer kinda electrolytically ate into it, because I've seen those go pretty bad.

Like I mentioned to Rob, the part was is good shape and nothing lead to this but hard launching and stress created by it. There is no rusting or pitting or gauling of any kind. You can see where the piece was 1/2 broken through (brown from surface rust) and where I finished it off. (clean broken steel)



Good job you had your steering rack on tight too, lots of folks come across theirs being loose or the bolts rusting out of the K frame, if the rack or tie rod had let go you'd have gone straight into the wall. When ya think of all the nasty ways that could have ended, you could say you lucked out.

Exactly, this Could have been Very ugly and to think I Almost took that sway bar out! I'm talking I was under the car and getting ready to unbolt it and suddenly decided against it. I concider myself extreamly lucky!

Like I said, it was the worst day we've had at the track, but I look at it just the same as if our "lucky streek" is still in tact!

[BIG PSI]

Wow Rob, glad you did not get hurt and the car was safe.

Can you do me a favor and post up some photos of your motor ?

Chuck

[Shadow]

That was pretty crazy! I was on the return road when you started heading toward the rail. By the top of the track there was nothing but smoke behind you. I thought for sure the motor kicked it in :yuck:

I think that's what everyone was thinking, including the bro! Funny that I didn't notice all that smoke, guess I needed to look in the rear view!

[Shadow]

Wow Rob, glad you did not get hurt and the car was safe.

Can you do me a favor and post up some photos of your motor ?

Chuck

No problem, anything in particular, or just some E/C shots?

[bakes]

Have a pic of the tire to see how close you came to a blow out????

[Shadow]

Wow Rob, glad you did not get hurt and the car was safe.

Can you do me a favor and post up some photos of your motor ?

Chuck

How's this?

[Shadow]

Have a pic of the tire to see how close you came to a blow out????

Again, I should have taken pics before we took it apart! When I first looked at the slick on the car I was sure it was Toast! But after carefull inspection none of the groves are as deep as the wear hole.

Fortunatly one of the grooves (the deepest one) passes right over one of the wear holes so it was easy to make a safe call!

[turbovanman²]

Damn dude, we gotta renane you "drama queen", lol. :lol:

That strut rod breaking is not that uncommon, I've had a customer with a minivan have that problem and one i bought for parts also had a broken on. The customer one was weird, he wasn't even complaining but I took it for a drive and it would pull on and off the gas, then hitting the brakes it would track straight? Took us awhile to figure it out and when you looked at it, it sat normally, :confused:

[Shadow]

Damn dude, we gotta renane you "drama queen", lol. :lol:

That strut rod breaking is not that uncommon, I've had a customer with a minivan have that problem and one i bought for parts also had a broken on. The customer one was weird, he wasn't even complaining but I took it for a drive and it would pull on and off the gas, then hitting the brakes it would track straight? Took us awhile to figure it out and when you looked at it, it sat normally, :confused:

HA! I was going to sit on the second part of the story for a week, but when Bakes asked for pics of the slicks I was sure it wouldn't be too long before someone came on and Q'd why they were caked with crap and not smooth! :D

[turbovanman²]

No kidding, lol.

You need to change your sig time.

I like your valve cover vent setup, very unique, :nod:

[Shadow]

No kidding, lol.

You need to change your sig time.

I like your valve cover vent setup, very unique, :nod:

That's funny! I whipped that together years ago with odds and ends laying around the shop to END my PCV issues once and for all! Which it did!

Always ment to clean it up with some AN lines and such, but I think it actually adds to the Mystique and Shock value of the car.

I lift the hood and even ppl in the TD know think that there's not much done under there! :eyebrows:

[Reeves]

Thank god you didn't get hurt. things could of gone real bad. I took out my sway bar last winter but I'm not going to put it back in. I think the rust is what did you in. I'm going to check my front end this winter. you got me very concerned .


The part wasn't "rusty" if that's what you think I ment. What I ment was I could tell by the surface browning (rust) on 1/2 of the break that it was like that before I ran. I just finished it off! (you can see the clean part of the break in the pics)

I don't run a sway bar either anymore. Haven't in a few years.
What do you think caused the first half of the crack?

[turbovanman²]

Why don't you guys run sway bars? I thought that would make it worse for traction?

[glhs875]

Great runs!! That thing most certainly hauls butt!

Quickly I must add!:thumb:

[Shadow]

I don't run a sway bar either anymore. Haven't in a few years.
What do you think caused the first half of the crack?

I don't know? Was it there for 11 years since this car originally went together?

I was thinking that it just slowly started and got worse till it was weak enough for it to break completely. But who knows, could have been a factory defect or maybe picked up a hairline crack that was never noticed?

Simon says he's seen this movie before. maybe he has some answers.

[turbovanman²]

I don't know? Was it there for 11 years since this car originally went together?

I was thinking that it just slowly started and got worse till it was weak enough for it to break completely. But who knows, could have been a factory defect or maybe picked up a hairline crack that was never noticed?

Simon says he's seen this movie before. maybe he has some answers.

My thought is due to the way that strut bar flex's, its just a metal thing, its like bending metal, over time, it simply breaks.

[Shadow]

My thought is due to the way that strut bar flex's, its just a metal thing, its like bending metal, over time, it simply breaks.

Add to that every time I launch Hard it gets a real good tug forwards, maybe opened something up? I usually put 5-10000km's on the Charger every year on the street. (cept the last two years prob 1/2 that) The roads in MB are brutal and in desperate need of repair. Maybe street driving took it's toll?

[turbovanman²]

Add to that every time I launch Hard it gets a real good tug forwards, maybe opened something up? I usually put 5-10000km's on the Charger every year on the street. (cept the last two years prob 1/2 that) The roads in MB are brutal and in desperate need of repair. Maybe street driving took it's toll?

Its possible? or maybe we just have to say, "its just one of those things"? :(

[Reeves]

Why don't you guys run sway bars? I thought that would make it worse for traction?

Doesn't seem to change traction much either way. If anything, I think it may have helped traction a tad.

Makes axle swaps MUCH quicker! :nod:

[RoadWarrior222]

I would be wondering though, if running without the swaybar for periods of time, put extra stress on that pivot/strut.

[Shadow]

Doesn't seem to change traction much either way. If anything, I think it may have helped traction a tad.

Makes axle swaps MUCH quicker! :nod:

Agreed, I seemed to notice back before they resurfaced the track, when I took the S/B out the suspention followed the uneven surface better, if that makes sense. + on the axel swaps as well.

Still freaks me out that I was that close to removing it! But I'm not going to start second guessing now.


I would be wondering though, if running without the swaybar for periods of time, put extra stress on that pivot/strut.

That's a good point, although I only ran without it a couple times and that was at least 3 or 4 years ago.

[fleckster]

I don't run a sway bar either anymore. Haven't in a few years.

No wonder your Omni autocrosses like a pig! I guess I'm not surprised that you swapped ends! lol

[rbryant]

That is a pretty scary story glad to hear that no major damage was done to you or the car.

I guess the stub not only binds in the bushings it actually flexes slightly and work hardens over time...

One thing that you might consider is using a non turbo lbody swaybar. I think they are only 7/8" so you still have some swaybar in the car. I heard but can't verify that the EARLY lbody swaybars were actually hollow so they would be even softer.

So do you want a dual pivot frame for next season? ;)

-Rich

[Shadow]

That is a pretty scary story glad to hear that no major damage was done to you or the car.

I guess the stub not only binds in the bushings it actually flexes slightly and work hardens over time...

One thing that you might consider is using a non turbo lbody swaybar. I think they are only 7/8" so you still have some swaybar in the car. I heard but can't verify that the EARLY lbody swaybars were actually hollow so they would be even softer.

So do you want a dual pivot frame for next season? ;)

-Rich

There's the kicker, I made my first dual pivot frame back in 97 when I was building the original twin turbo car.(an 86 S/C) It's still bolted to that shell in storage to this very day!

If I didn't have the ability and/or hadn't already built these I would deff have bought one of yours! I followed that thread pretty good and right down to shipping I think you remained integral and as fair as humanly possible! :thumb:

Either way, when the car comes out next year, it's going to be dual pivot for sure! :nod:

[RoadWarrior222]

Or you could section two K frames, flip one on top of the other, box in the steering rack, fab the rest up and have dual wishbone front suspension..... which probably wouldn't do a lot but put 100lb over the driving wheels :D

I'd have a good look at that axle, make sure it didn't get any abnormal loads on it, or get a groove ground in it on the K frame or anything.

[Shadow]

I'd have a good look at that axle, make sure it didn't get any abnormal loads on it, or get a groove ground in it on the K frame or anything.


We did, and then I ran 10.89 on it! :drum:

[rbryant]

There's the kicker, I made my first dual pivot frame back in 97 when I was building the original twin turbo car.(an 86 S/C) It's still bolted to that shell in storage to this very day!

If I didn't have the ability and/or hadn't already built these I would deff have bought one of yours! I followed that thread pretty good and right down to shipping I think you remained integral and as fair as humanly possible! :thumb:

Either way, when the car comes out next year, it's going to be dual pivot for sure! :nod:

That's cool. All along I was more interested in showing people how to do the frames than actually making them. I am making a few bucks right now if nothing else goes wrong but the shipping is not going to be fun at all.

Did you make yours out of tube or do it similar to the ones I am making by modifying a non lbody dual pivot frame?

-Rich

[Shadow]

That's cool. All along I was more interested in showing people how to do the frames than actually making them. I am making a few bucks right now if nothing else goes wrong but the shipping is not going to be fun at all.

Did you make yours out of tube or do it similar to the ones I am making by modifying a non lbody dual pivot frame?

-Rich

Modified non l-body dual pivot like yours. Slight difference on how I did the "leg" that needs moding, but pretty much the same thing.

I've prob done 4-5 over the years including the one we did this spring for a TIII S/C we're building.

A few ppl have asked me to do this for them as well, but if you think shipping for you is brutal, just try shipping something that size across the bourder.

For that reason alone I only make these in shop when needed, like most of the stuff I do.

Even more reason to commend you for stepping up and getting these made for ppl who need/want them. :thumb:

[RoadWarrior222]

A few ppl have asked me to do this for them as well, but if you think shipping for you is brutal, just try shipping something that size across the bourder.

Yup, use a damn fortune in KY jelly to get it up a Mexican's butt.... then they want $10 extra :rolleyes:

[thedon809]

I like your dipstick holder.

[Ondonti]

What direction did your car pull. When I had a slick rubbing on my strut, it pulled left like crazy, glad it was only on 5 pounds and 7:1 motor that day. I lost like 8mph at the 1/8th with it rubbing.

[Shadow]

What direction did your car pull. When I had a slick rubbing on my strut, it pulled left like crazy, glad it was only on 5 pounds and 7:1 motor that day. I lost like 8mph at the 1/8th with it rubbing.

That was the subject of some debate. The car head right for the left gaurd rail when I nailed 2nd. We were thinking if the control arm is broken in the rear, the left tire moving forward Should move the car to the right.

I guess the rubbing and slowing of the left tire was greater than the couple inches further forward.

[RoadWarrior222]

Could have had some interesting adventures with that, lift off suddenly it heads for the opposite rail, panic and brake and it flips the other way again....

[turbovanman²]

Even more reason to commend you for stepping up and getting these made for ppl who need/want them. :thumb:

No doubt, :hail:

[Shadow]

Could have had some interesting adventures with that, lift off suddenly it heads for the opposite rail, panic and brake and it flips the other way again....


luckily I had absolutly no clue what was going on. It was also very fortunate that it was a shakedown run and I think I started the slicks somewhere between 12 and 14psi.

When the car headed for the rail, I simply lifted (just enough to stop the spinning) Corrected and got back into it.

At the time it simply felt like I had nailed 2nd a little too aggressively with the new clutch and it spun the slicks like I was on a skating rink!

[Reeves]

I heard but can't verify that the EARLY lbody swaybars were actually hollow so they would be even softer.

So do you want a dual pivot frame for next season? ;)

-Rich

I know that some k-cars had a hollow sway bar. I grabbed one from a junk yard once and cut it, and put it in my OMNI for a while. I later went back to stock. Then I just got rid of sway bar all together. I don’t think a L-body ever came with a hollow bar…but I may be wrong.


Either way, when the car comes out next year, it's going to be dual pivot for sure! :nod:

You guys don’t experience more wheel hop/wobble with the dual pivot K-frames? I’ve been a fan of the stub strut for this reason. I’m only talking straight line torque. No doubt the dual pivot is better in every other way.


At the time it simply felt like I had nailed 2nd a little too aggressively with the new clutch and it spun the slicks like I was on a skating rink!

Ain’t that fun? I mean….your ET sucks….but it’s still fun :p

[Shadow]

You guys don’t experience more wheel hop/wobble with the dual pivot K-frames? I’ve been a fan of the stub strut for this reason. I’m only talking straight line torque. No doubt the dual pivot is better in every other way.


I wondered this myself, the Charger has always launched so smooth and the biggest reason I never changed was I didn't want to mess with something that worked so well. Specially after hearing so many braking axels and getting wheelhop with newer style suspension.



Ain’t that fun? I mean….your ET sucks….but it’s still fun :p

I've spun the slicks in 2nd, but never quite like that! Was deff a blast, but I think it freaked some ppl out when they saw me heading for the rail! :wow1:

[Ondonti]

I have stock bushings etc. My axle breaks this year were on video and nothing seems to move, maybe I should look a little more carefully. Only one is on good quality vid.

[RoadWarrior222]

Maybe a little bit of lateral give damps the wheelhop, I know on my DD I just started noticing more hop now I replaced a balljoint that had a little slop in it.

[bakes]

I have stock bushings etc. My axle breaks this year were on video and nothing seems to move, maybe I should look a little more carefully. Only one is on good quality vid.

If the Vid shows the burn out look there too for wheel hop you might have damaged the axle shaft there and just finished it off on the launch.

[Shadow]

After looking at DJ's slowmo video on launch, I think we all need to get us somodat! :nod:

[turbovanman²]

You guys don’t experience more wheel hop/wobble with the dual pivot K-frames? I’ve been a fan of the stub strut for this reason. I’m only talking straight line torque. No doubt the dual pivot is better in every other way.


I've run both and honestly think the cast does a better job.


After looking at DJ's slowmo video on launch, I think we all need to get us somodat! :nod:

No doubt, :partywoot: