Pre-turbo WI installed ...

[puppet]

... and being tested. Slapped together a homemade system that is completely mechanical in it's operation.

I used a discarded paint spray gun head for the delivery end. Modified the inlet pipe on the turbo with an addition (hose grafted on at the elbow) to house the spray head.

The WI side of the head has a spring loaded piston check valve that cracks @ around 1 psi. The air side of the head is plumbed to the turbo nipple ... which now is a "Tee" fitting.

The reservoir is a discarded washer tank out of a daytona and it's mounted on the passenger side fender wall. The bottom outlet of the tank was equipped with brass fittings to attach the 1/4" fuel line with filter. The cap of the tank was replaced with a short section of 2" silicone hose. The top has a 1-1/2" plumbing clean-out fitting glued in. Two sides of the fitting are drilled and tapped for welding tips (1/4-24) One tip is left as is (.025" orifice) and the other was drilled out to 3/32".

1/4" fuel line is used and 5/32" air line. The fuel line exits the tank and runs to a barbed fitting on top of the 1/8" check valve which is screwed into the spray head. The air line to the tank .. in my set-up .. runs from a solenoid. I have a two stage boost control and don't want to give that up. (*This is optional and not required for this to work.) So the second turbo nipple connects to the bottom of the solenoid ... the middle barb to the waste gate actuator ... and the top (or bleed) of the solenoid is connected to the 3/32" welding tip on the tank top via some more 5/32" hose.

When the 2nd stage of boost is switched on, the tank gets pressurized enough to overcome the 1psi check valve on the spray head. The tank has that .025" bleed so it never sees full boost pressure (25psi) and can't burst. The air side of the head then atomizes the mixture just like a spray gun .. very fine mist. The head retains the "volume" screw and I can control the amount of mixture introduced to the turbo inlet .. from an insignificant mist to full on soaking spray. When out of boost, the check valves piston slaps shut cutting off flow and the tank is vented via the .025" welding tip back to atmospheric conditions.

Had all this set up on the bench to test first and it worked pretty good. Set the mist pretty low for starters .. centered the nozzle pattern in the opening and installed it on the engine. It took another 1/2 turn or so of the spray head volume to start feeling anything significant as far as "seat of pants" changes. Last move on the screw netted a surprising jolt of power @25 psi and the car continued to pull real hard with no knock.

I'll be getting some thermocouples here soon to check just how the intake charge is effected by this modification. I'll be sure to follow up after I've got these things together.

[ShadowFromHell]

Are you running a intercooler? If its a log car, this style has been done on them since the dark ages. I like how you fixed the cap problem. I have been wanting to build a mechanical system for years, and have just never done it. My plan was to use a section of 6in PVC for a tank capped on one end, and with a reducer and ball valve on the top to easily fill it and seal it. I also had thought of building a mechanical/electric hybrid. Use a windshield washer pump, and a pressurized tank. That way even thou its a low psi pump, the pressure on the tank side will keep boost from overcoming it. Did you wire up a light to the stock low washer fluid sensor?

[contraption22]

I had a very similar setup on my Horizon when it was a suck through T1, although it had the injector above the throttle body because I am sure the vaccuum between the turbo and the TB would have sucked the reservior dry in seconds.

[puppet]

Are you running a intercooler? If its a log car, this style has been done on them since the dark ages. I like how you fixed the cap problem. I have been wanting to build a mechanical system for years, and have just never done it. My plan was to use a section of 6in PVC for a tank capped on one end, and with a reducer and ball valve on the top to easily fill it and seal it. I also had thought of building a mechanical/electric hybrid. Use a windshield washer pump, and a pressurized tank. That way even thou its a low psi pump, the pressure on the tank side will keep boost from overcoming it. Did you wire up a light to the stock low washer fluid sensor?
It's on a T2 daytona. It has twin stock intercoolers in parallel. I tested last year with a washer pump and it just doesn't have enough power to atomize a spray. I will be wiring up the washer sensor soon. It's a nice "gimme" with the tank.

There's a company that sells air/fluid low pressure spray heads on the net for industrial apps. If a guy didn't have a spare spray gun handy that would be the very next best option.

Reason I did this was all the talk on the www about being able to change the turbos "map" into a larger one given the cooling effect of the fluid. In theory, since the fluid lowers the turbos discharge temps, it won't be blowing super hot air @25psi .. raising the compressors efficiency beyond it's "map". Some people claim to be able to eliminate their IC's entirely as a result. Not entirely sure how much fluid has to be pumped to accomplish that though .. We'll see.

[ShadowFromHell]

Now when you say spray gun, I think paint gun. Is that what you are using? Have any pics? I cant picture this in my head how you would use a old paint gun to make this work. Are you worried about the water pooling in the IC?

[puppet]

Now when you say spray gun, I think paint gun. Is that what you are using? Have any pics? I cant picture this in my head how you would use a old paint gun to make this work. Are you worried about the water pooling in the IC?You are correct ... old paint gun. I have pic's ... need to find a place to host 'em.

The gun was an old Master Mechanic. I broke it down to just the head. Had to cut and tap the area that was the fluid tube connection.

Took the needle tip (rod) and machined the back end for a brass threaded screw (which allows adjustment of fluid flow). This rod normally slides when you trigger the gun but the back side is always sealed. I just threaded that acorn nut seal to accept the brass screw. A 10-32 allows for pretty fine adjustment.

Drilled and tapped the air entrance. This gun, when broken down, allowed the front section to be removed from the trigger section. The air entrance was then an open hole. Inset barb fitting ... done.

"O" ringed of the chamber in the cap that feeds the "horns" so air just exits around the center tip. (round pattern instead of a fan).

This head would suction feed but I wanted more control over it. Reason for the check valve, etc. Plus, tank placement would be more critical then and I didn't feel like dealing with that in an area with limited space. The way the system is now, the tank could be in the hatch and still feed just fine.

I'll see what I can do about pic's ... or mail you some?


Oh ya ... here's that link to some other heads I was talking about:
http://www.bete.com/products/xa-dir.html


ETA: Your question about pooling. Honestly, right now I don't see an issue with that because of the finer mist/spray. We've all seen the shots of guys spraying in a solid stream of fluid into the inlet. Evaporation of something like that would naturally be a lot harder to accomplish. Pooling could be an issue then. The head I modified works just like it did when it was a spray gun.

A fella (riceracing AU down under guy) that designed, built and sells a system like this a (long time now) sprays just plain water most of the time. I remember him stating that he's used other ratios and hasn't seen a whole lot of difference. I'm trying a 50/50 mix of denatured right now and might increase that ratio later on ... if there is a benefit. I do see the alky as evaporating quicker so I'm hedging my bet a little bit.

Like I wrote above .. I tested it from below 5psi to over 25psi and the atomization was consistently fine. There was no way I'd be hooking up a bucket with a hole at the bottom to my set-up.

[contraption22]

Are you sure it's a wise idea to have water vapor flowing through your intercooler?

[puppet]

Are you sure it's a wise idea to have water vapor flowing through your intercooler?
Don't know for sure how far the vapor is getting right now. Pulling IC's to check is no big deal ... but going to give it some time first. I'll see how this plays out.

Have to bear in mind that the flow isn't "always on" ... just when I switch to high boost. Been keeping track of usage @ the tank and after several days, off and on, there hasn't been enough fluid shot through to make any appreciable puddle in the system in my mind. What amounts to 6oz's maybe. I'm betting most of this flashes as soon as it hits the turbo. I can definitely smell alky in the plenum though ... but no wetness in the up pipes.

[contraption22]

Forgot you were running alky.

Then i would REALLY be concerned that you have a pressurized combustible vapor in your intercooler and plumbing. One backfire and boom.

[puppet]

Forgot you were running alky.

Then i would REALLY be concerned that you have a pressurized combustible vapor in your intercooler and plumbing. One backfire and boom.Never heard of this issue Mike ... not from pre-turbo or post turbo A/W mixed injection. If you had examples I could research that would be great. I'll look around the net specifically for this in the meantime.

[1BADVAN]

Never heard of this issue Mike ... not from pre-turbo or post turbo A/W mixed injection. If you had examples I could research that would be great. I'll look around the net specifically for this in the meantime.

they "claim" that if you keep the alcohol mixture under 50% it is non-combustible. From what i remember you said you are using denatured alcohol, which when i messed with it is pretty flammable and burns clear so even if it is on fire the only way to tell is to see things melting or burn yourself by touching it.

I too have heard that running an injection system pre-intercooler can cause issues cause it is just physics that when an air charge is cooled the liquid evaporated in it begins to condense and fall out of it. That is exactly why the A/C runs when you use the Defrost in the winter it cools the air removing the water so it won't fog up the window.

Just my 2-cents i bet it will work fine as long as you are not seeing it pool too much in the ICs but i am interested to see how it works

[mario03SRT]

You are going to beat up your compressor wheel.......

[puppet]

The fluid I'm using right now is 50/50 mix. I wasn't too concerned with flammability at that level. Did consider going more alky later but probably won't take that chance. The output of the heads spray is very fine as it it .. and the volume is low. It's just "misting".

My motive for this, actually, was to see if/how the introduction of cooling here would effect charge temps at the turbo outlet and within the turbo scroll itself. I figure with my turbo (MP+) is mostly out of it's efficiency range @25 psi except during specific rpm levels. That goes for a S-60 too ... and some argue that also applies to a T4 wheel/T3 compressor housing match-up. Garrett states that housing A/R has little to no effect on compressor performance. So that leaves the "so called" extra heat produced by such a combination.

I had a problem over the weekend not related to the WI thing and have the engine torn down right now for a freshening. Should have it back together here shortly. A second hand ported manifold I bought awhile ago had been patched above the starter. PO miss drilled for an EGT there and realized the placement issue so he patched/welded the mistake. Well ... that let go while racing. I couldn't see the problem from below ... forgot about the patch actually and just pulled the head. Nice 5/8" round hole right over the starter. Lucky I didn't burn it down. Anyway, when I get this far into something w/80,000+ miles, I figure what the heck. Pull the pistons, get new, rering the bores, bearings, go through the head, rebuild the turbo etc. ... no big deal.

[puppet]

You are going to beat up your compressor wheel.......Heard that before ... from my reading on it, this issue tends to be over exaggerated. Older tech had injection of one kind or another pre-turbo from the factory without problems. Couple of the larger AI companies have been offering pump/atomization kits for this so I'd gather they're not too concerned either. What's seems the consensus and generally considered a "bad idea", is shooting a solid stream into the blade ... but that was a no brainer. I'm nowhere near that scenario.

Might be a complete waste of effort .... like I said, we'll see.

[amcpacer]

Back when my Laser XE was draw through I ran two water injection nozzles in the plastic elbow right above the throttle body. The water never hurt the turbo blades at all. It did corrode the throttle plate screws away so be sure to check the condition of the screws every so often. I ended up having to put a solenoid at each water nozze to shut of flow immediately when boost dropped to avoid misfire when the throttle was lifted. I ran this system for a couple of years and it worked quite well. Now it is even better with my 3 nozzle setup on my converted TII with the nozzles positioned after the intercooler and before the throttle body.

Definitely do not inject water before an intercooler. The water will precipitate out and pool up and during a hard turn or acceleration a gush of liquid water could cause hydrolock.