Why no 4 speed auto swaps?

[zin]

Given the cost of gas, and the fact that any engine will last longer with lower RPMs in cruise, I'm curious as to why there is a distinct lack of info regarding 4 speed swaps. I know that they never came with the 2.2L, but that's never stopped the determined. As you can likely guess I'm interested in doing one of these myself and would like to avail myself of anyone's previous expereance, before I reproduce any mistakes! Thanks for any and all input.

Mike

[turbovanman²]

Well, they actually did make the 4spd for the turbo motor in Mexico so yes, its possible. The draw back is, yes, money. The A604 tranny is also weaker so it will cost alot to develop the stronger parts for it. The other note is the tranny is computer controlled, so that has to be wired plus the computer shifts like crap and no one yet has broken the code to reprogram it. It has been mentioned that MegaSquirt could run it but no one has made the jump due to yes, you guessed it, MONEY, :eyebrows:

[Whorse]

Don't forget that most people willing to go to those efforts for those reasons are often willing to settle with a 5spd. Not all, but enough. Ever driven a 3.8L minivan with a tranny starting to go? There just aren't tough chrysler tranny's for the smaller engines.

[Ondonti]

Well, they actually did make the 4spd for the turbo motor in Mexico so yes, its possible. The draw back is, yes, money. The A604 tranny is also weaker so it will cost alot to develop the stronger parts for it. The other note is the tranny is computer controlled, so that has to be wired plus the computer shifts like crap and no one yet has broken the code to reprogram it. It has been mentioned that MegaSquirt could run it but no one has made the jump due to yes, you guessed it, MONEY, :eyebrows:

Simon, you are wrong on this one, sorry. Talk to Dean Stillie and he can educate you on which transmission has MUCH Beefier parts.
Beefy parts is not the problem at all.

[turbovanman²]

Maybe so but if they can't live behind a weak V6, how can they live behind a 300 hp 4 cylinder, :confused:

[zin]

Simon, you are wrong on this one, sorry. Talk to Dean Stillie and he can educate you on which transmission has MUCH Beefier parts.
Beefy parts is not the problem at all.

Well, any info on what the weak links and fixes are would be helpful in deciding if this is a path to follow or not. I might have an idea or two on how to run the thing once I understand how it's all working. Also, if the beefy parts aren't the problem, what seems to be the issue? I was expecting a fitment problem (did I mention my project is an L body?), or the need for an adapter plate, etc.

Anyone have a link or info regarding the ratios, gears and final drives? How about interchangeability among other trannys?

Thanks for input so far guys, please keep it coming.

Mike

[The S is Silent]

Run a search on neons.org for it...the subject has been brought up at least once there. From what I have read, and backed up by Simon, is that the trans is not strong at all, and the only development that has been done to make it last longer has all been electronic.

[show-off]

A604 is a pile of junk. You can build them semi strong for 2k or so, but why waste your money. I just replaced mine in my Avenger. They are not good in the 4 or 6 cylinder cars. my .02

[WVRampage]

What about the lock up converter?

[turbovanman²]

What about the lock up converter?

Its worth 2-300 rpm, not worth the money unless you already have one.

[WVRampage]

Its worth 2-300 rpm, not worth the money unless you already have one.
OK thats what I figured thanks for the info.

[MopàrBCN]

Maybe so but if they can't live behind a weak V6, how can they live behind a 300 hp 4 cylinder, :confused:
Exactly, those trannies where just crap. I dare to say that in Europe, where the 3l V6 was quite popular, hardly anyone still got his original tranny put in. They all had to be rebuilt - many after just 50 000 km (33 000 Miles).

[Boogieman142]

weak v-6 huh simon, must not be talking about mine. LOL. Well the 604s were and still are junk thats why nobody uses them. now one going after 33k miles they are not that bad. I had mine in my lebaron for 110k miles and i pulled it out for a 5 spd, not because it blew but because it got boring to drive. The car rides so smooth and you don't feel the shifts that i was dozing off, now i have the 5 spd to play with which if driven right will yield more mpg(depending on the fd ratio, i lost some (3.77)and am about to lose more with a 3.85) I would stick with a stick but thats just me, others use autos on theirs.

[Stevien1]

If you build the 604/41TE CORRECTLY with late model internals it's a pretty good trans. People that use junk parts and don't have any common sense are usually the ones that have repeat failures! ;) If I had a case to fit a 2.2/2.5 and the ability to "tune" the TCM software, I'd be running one right now in my van!

-Chuck James

[JDAWG]

wonder if a drb could change anything, well depending on the year of the tcm

[Bardo]

you think cryo would help anything?

[86Shelby]

If I had a case to fit a 2.2/2.5 and the ability to "tune" the TCM software, I'd be running one right now in my van!

I bet a SchafferShifter could be made to work. Wouldn't be smooth, but it'd prolly work...:eyebrows:

[zin]

I bet a SchafferShifter could be made to work. Wouldn't be smooth, but it'd prolly work...:eyebrows:

I was thinking I might be able to run the shift solenoids directly, or some such non-sense. Of course I was also hoping that there would be parts from another trans (say a 904) that could be used to beef-up the unit. I like the 3-speed ok, but I miss the low revs and milage (only 18 right now) that the sticks get.

Seems like alot of the issues with these units is the computer trying to out trick itself. How many of the problems these things have are really related to the hard parts? Is it mostly just burnt-up friction material and seals?

Thanks again for all the input guys!

Mike

[boost geek]

I spent $2400 to get my 4 speed tranny rebuilt in a 92 Voyager, still shifted like crap. Every 2 months I had to take the input speed sensor out and clean it to make it shift again. The 3.3 engine was great, the tranny was a lump of manure with an aluminum coating. Got rid of it and bought an Odyssey, yup, hated it so much I went Honda. It's also 5 times the van that Dodge was, lots of power, awesome handling, let the flaming begin!:evil:

[Clay]

If gas mileage is your reason, then stick with a 5 speed. Typically a manual will get better gas mileage than an auto because you can adjust your RPMs manually to match the best fuel consumption. The last gear in a 5 speed is usually an overdrive as well, which is probably close to what an auto overdrive would be. So in the end its probably a wash for fuel consumption.

clay

[Bardo]

see i wanted to do a auto cause of the RMVB and the fact of when its shifting from 1-2-3 theres no drop in boost. then again WAY down the line im looking to run about 25-30 psi. :evil:

[zin]

If gas mileage is your reason, then stick with a 5 speed. Typically a manual will get better gas mileage than an auto because you can adjust your RPMs manually to match the best fuel consumption. The last gear in a 5 speed is usually an overdrive as well, which is probably close to what an auto overdrive would be. So in the end its probably a wash for fuel consumption.

clay

The Omin already has the 3speed auto in it, as converted by the previous owner. I do have a complete 5-speed set-up from a 89 CSX VNT car, but I like not having to deal with clutch problems and like that my wife can drive it to, just would like to get some better milage and not go down the road at 4000 (I like to drive fast). As it is, it seems like the biggest issue with the O/D trans is the computer control trying to be super smooth or know more than you do. If a manual valve body or shifing could be done, it might not be the steaming pile it seems to be. Maybe a Pick a Part 1/2 price sale and a wild hair will combine to have me try this thing out.

Does anyone know what major issues I'll have to address? Is there a case that will bolt to the 2.2/2.5? Will a 413 flex plate work with the o/d's converter?

As always, any and all info/suggestions appreciated.

Mike

[Dodge Aries K]

The problem with the idea of manually shifting the 604 is that it CAN NOT be done. There is no hydraulic switching of the gears. It's all done by the computer solenoid pack which as you hear doesn't just open or close. It pulsates to shift the gears. (Hence the Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz-tick sound) Plus finding the casing to mate to the 4 cyl is gunna be tough. But then you also need the TCM to work with the transmission which has to be hooked into the SBEC that supports having the TCM there and possibly a BCM as well...

It gets way too complicated on the electrical side of the spectrum, regardless if the 604 was bullet proof or a steaming pile of manure (which is the second almost all the time)

[fleckster]

With 4 cylinder turbo cars already knocking down 30mpg on the highway, what more do you need? Are you guys that greedy? We already have great performance and good economy. We have our cake and we get to eat it too! Now there are even people who want the ingrediants the cake was made with while having the cake and eating it too.

If you want good mileage, stick with the stick! 5 speed turbo cars get 30+mpg. If you aren't getting quite as good as you would like, try swapping in the "hybrid" differential gears. If you have 3.85 or 3.87, try swapping in the 3.55 ratio from the A-520 or A-523.

Even the autos aren't bad. My A-413 in my LeBaron GT Turbo 'vert without lockup has no problem knocking down 30mpg driving 70mph on the interstate. Trying to reinvent the wheel with putting a 41TE in is about like most of the hybrid gas/electric vehicle hype. You would have a good investment upfront that you would have to drive 10 years or 150,000 miles with fuel prices over $3/gal to come close to recooping the investment. Besides, most of the final drive ratios in 4th gear aren't any better than the 31TH so you don't gain much of anything at speed. The only benefit (and that would be slight) would be around town with the shifting.

[turbovanman²]

With 4 cylinder turbo cars already knocking down 30mpg on the highway, what more do you need? Are you guys that greedy? We already have great performance and good economy. We have our cake and we get to eat it too! Now there are even people who want the ingrediants the cake was made with while having the cake and eating it too.

If you want good mileage, stick with the stick! 5 speed turbo cars get 30+mpg. If you aren't getting quite as good as you would like, try swapping in the "hybrid" differential gears. If you have 3.85 or 3.87, try swapping in the 3.55 ratio from the A-520 or A-523.

Even the autos aren't bad. My A-413 in my LeBaron GT Turbo 'vert without lockup has no problem knocking down 30mpg driving 70mph on the interstate. Trying to reinvent the wheel with putting a 41TE in is about like most of the hybrid gas/electric vehicle hype. You would have a good investment upfront that you would have to drive 10 years or 150,000 miles with fuel prices over $3/gal to come close to recooping the investment. Besides, most of the final drive ratios in 4th gear aren't any better than the 31TH so you don't gain much of anything at speed. The only benefit (and that would be slight) would be around town with the shifting.

I agree to disagree, the overdrive on a Minivan would help immensly.

[zin]

With 4 cylinder turbo cars already knocking down 30mpg on the highway, what more do you need? Are you guys that greedy? We already have great performance and good economy. We have our cake and we get to eat it too! Now there are even people who want the ingrediants the cake was made with while having the cake and eating it too.

If you want good mileage, stick with the stick! 5 speed turbo cars get 30+mpg. If you aren't getting quite as good as you would like, try swapping in the "hybrid" differential gears. If you have 3.85 or 3.87, try swapping in the 3.55 ratio from the A-520 or A-523.

Even the autos aren't bad. My A-413 in my LeBaron GT Turbo 'vert without lockup has no problem knocking down 30mpg driving 70mph on the interstate. Trying to reinvent the wheel with putting a 41TE in is about like most of the hybrid gas/electric vehicle hype. You would have a good investment upfront that you would have to drive 10 years or 150,000 miles with fuel prices over $3/gal to come close to recooping the investment. Besides, most of the final drive ratios in 4th gear aren't any better than the 31TH so you don't gain much of anything at speed. The only benefit (and that would be slight) would be around town with the shifting.


Well, IF I was getting 30+mpg, I might not be so interested, but right now it's about 18-20, so overdirive is looking good to me. Plus I don't like flogging the engine @ 3500+ going down the highway. The manual isn't an option as the wifey needs to be able to drive it, so I'm back to the OD. The case shouldn't be a big deal, fabing up an adapter plate isn't too hard. The shifting might be a challenge, if it really requires the pulse width modulation; though I suspect it's only done to smooth out the shifts and adjust the shift harshness. One nice thing is that it doesn't appear to use bands, it just engages another element, kind of like a turbo 400. That will make manually actuating the solenioids a bit easier. It's looking more and more like I'll just have to be the guinea pig on this one:o As for having your cake and the ingredients, hell, I'd like to have the individual elements!:eyebrows:

[turbovanman²]

If I keep my van long enough, I might look into doing it also. Just need a hookup in good old Mexico for the case.

[zin]

If I keep my van long enough, I might look into doing it also. Just need a hookup in good old Mexico for the case.

I'm in So-Cal, that's practically Mexico.:D What would we want to get? I've got some customers that go down south often, so he might be able to pick up stuff.

Mike

[turbovanman²]

You need him to search out a Mexican Turbo 2.5L 4 speed case, maybe grab the harness and both computers!

[fleckster]

Well, IF I was getting 30+mpg, I might not be so interested, but right now it's about 18-20, so overdirive is looking good to me.

I think the first thing I'd do is figure out why you are only getting 18-20mpg. Even if you do a trans swap, the problem you have now will still be there. Fixing the current problem would probably be easier and cheaper too. I would start with a good tune up. New plugs and wires and a cap a rotor. This would be a good time to upgrade the wires to a nice set of Magnacores or something similar. Next, and probably the biggest culprit in you being robbed of better fuel mileage is a new O2 Sensor. Just because it's not throwing a code doesn't mean it's not bad and making you run richer than you need. I believe about the cheapest price is at sparkplugs.com and you can get them for about $35-$40. Then if you can get away with it were you live, ditch the converter and open up the exhaust.(You are in CA so that's out!)

Unless you are making 300hp or more and having to run +40% injectors or much higher fuel pressures, you shouldn't be down in the 18-20mpg range on the highway, and I doubt it even then. It only takes something like 50hp to hold highway speeds and that only requires a reasonable amount of fuel. You should be at least in the mid 20s. In closed-loop mode the feedback from the O2 should be doing better for you.

[turbovanman²]

I think the first thing I'd do is figure out why you are only getting 18-20mpg.


If he has a Minivan, that mileage is awesome, :thumb:

[fleckster]

He said he has an Omni.

[lotsaboost]

Why no 4 speed auto swaps?

You can check these guys out. They have some info on the 41TE.

http://catalog.exileracing.com/product_info.php?cPath=163_164_184&products_id=589&osCsid=0bba66525b262b8873965ab5be5e9012

Carlos

[Birddog]

I'm not as dumb as this sounds....Dosen't the topic question's answer have something to do with a bunch of unnecessary weight aside from the $$$ to make the auto shift fast or be strong enough???

[turbovanman²]

He said he has an Omni.


I didn't see that, :p

But if anyone is looking in with a Minivan, the info is good, :nod:

[Boogieman142]

my car on a level section of ground doesn't even take that much hp to hold speed. according to a dyno it doesn't even take 20hp

[turbovanman²]

my car on a level section of ground doesn't even take that much hp to hold speed. according to a dyno it doesn't even take 20hp

That doesn't take into effect the wind resistance and drag of the rear tires.

[zin]

I think the first thing I'd do is figure out why you are only getting 18-20mpg. Even if you do a trans swap, the problem you have now will still be there. Fixing the current problem would probably be easier and cheaper too. I would start with a good tune up. New plugs and wires and a cap a rotor. This would be a good time to upgrade the wires to a nice set of Magnacores or something similar. Next, and probably the biggest culprit in you being robbed of better fuel mileage is a new O2 Sensor. Just because it's not throwing a code doesn't mean it's not bad and making you run richer than you need. I believe about the cheapest price is at sparkplugs.com and you can get them for about $35-$40. Then if you can get away with it were you live, ditch the converter and open up the exhaust.(You are in CA so that's out!)

Unless you are making 300hp or more and having to run +40% injectors or much higher fuel pressures, you shouldn't be down in the 18-20mpg range on the highway, and I doubt it even then. It only takes something like 50hp to hold highway speeds and that only requires a reasonable amount of fuel. You should be at least in the mid 20s. In closed-loop mode the feedback from the O2 should be doing better for you.

I suspect that you are correct about the O2 sensor, I'm planing a conversion to the heated version in the hopes that it will last longer and give better perfromance. I've already done a full tune-up (which included a new one wire O2), but as you may have read elsewhere, a series of bad MAP sensors has pretty much killed it (and the cat). I will be thrilled if the O2 will make that big a difference, but I'm a bit pessimistic. And still I really like the idea of an O/D, and, as is the case with most things automotive we do, it's not really motivated by cost savings.

[Boogieman142]

That doesn't take into effect the wind resistance and drag of the rear tires.

That was wind resistance, and front end drag, rear end wouldn't be a lot more

[zin]

You need him to search out a Mexican Turbo 2.5L 4 speed case, maybe grab the harness and both computers!

Next time he's in I'll ask him to look for some of these and what he can get them for. I suspect that he'd have to get the whole trans, but that wouldn't be such a bad thing. The next thing will be if it can be made strong enough to live in your Mini. I wonder if the OBX will still fit?

Mike

[ottawa rogue]

With 4 cylinder turbo cars already knocking down 30mpg on the highway, what more do you need? .

Gee, i'm only getting 24, but i think my trans. may have something to do with that .
UPDATE-i'm suddenly getting better mileage, i've gone almost 1 month on a quarter of a tank! amazing what a blown trans will do for mileage:D

[turbovanman²]

Next time he's in I'll ask him to look for some of these and what he can get them for. I suspect that he'd have to get the whole trans, but that wouldn't be such a bad thing. The next thing will be if it can be made strong enough to live in your Mini. I wonder if the OBX will still fit?

Mike


Not sure but as they say, money talks, :eyebrows:

[TurboJerry]

The 604 is a sound trans mechanically, the Electronics suck. Doing an electric shift manual VB would solve that issue. The cruise rpm will not drop so much though. I woulden't want to lugg it either......