Brass Shift Fork Pads - A568 - Prototype Review Discussion

[BadAssPerformance]

I know I have mentioned these parts before in the Z's Update thread, however, after discussing these with Tommy, Jackson, etc. and since I just got some updated info and pictures today, I thought I'd just put it all in one thread.

This thread is about Prototype Brass Shift Fork Pads for the A568.

Why brass? The original thought was that they would provide a more positive shift feel and they would be stronger and more durable than the stock plastic pads. Only concern is the frictional properties of brass vs. plastic in regards to the pads' secondary function of slowing the geartrain down between gears.

Brass pads CNC machined out of regular brass bar stock - specific grade unknown.

The test trans is a '91 A568 put together in 2008 with Brass pads on both the 1-2 and 3-4 shift forks leaving stock plastic ones on 5th.

The test vehicle is my '87 Shelby Z 2.4L ~500FWHP

Test prototypes have been subject to approx 200 miles including over 100 trips down the 1/4 mile, typically shifting at 7k RPM. Maybe a dozen of those runs included WOT shifting into 3 and 4.

I have not measured the wear but it is what I would call significant for the amoutn of use. I am contemplating if new plastic ones would have lasted as long or longer?

Pictures below show the stock and brass pads for comparison and current condition including wear.

Discuss.

http://www.badassperformance.com/mrides/z/08_specs/brasspads.jpg

[Juggy]

i think you would be better off designing these in a metal type such as ampco or even one of the biiitchiest metals to machine, mold max!

they have much better wear characteristics

[BadAssPerformance]

Good suggestions, keep them coming. I was thinking harder brass or bronze or something?

I used brass mainly as I needed them made quickly (to get the car togetehr fro SDAC-18) and had material available, and have heard of others using it.

[Juggy]

well the 2 i suggested are copper related. they are much better for heat/wear

berllium (however its spelt) can be found in the mold max, as well as some ampco this is what adds even more strength to the copper

question is, how hard do we need these things??? can it be over done and end up creating more wear elsewhere internally like syncros or what not?

[supercrackerbox]

Subscribed

[Pat]

In the pictures, it doesn't look like they are wearing evenly, which can be part of the reason why you've experienced the shifting problems you've had.

[BadAssPerformance]

Are you looking at the 1-2 pad? yes those are uneven but I can usually hit 2nd... whats uneven about the 3-4 pads? 3rd has been the issue.

ETA: BTW... it had 3rd gear issues when the pads were brand new and had gotten better until recently

[BadAssPerformance]

well the 2 i suggested are copper related. they are much better for heat/wear

berllium (however its spelt) can be found in the mold max, as well as some ampco this is what adds even more strength to the copper

question is, how hard do we need these things??? can it be over done and end up creating more wear elsewhere internally like syncros or what not?

Yeah Berillium is ex$pen$ive but good stuff. Not sure if it wants to be too hard.... Guess I need to look up material yeild strengths

[Directconnection]

Yeah Berillium is ex$pen$ive but good stuff. Not sure if it wants to be too hard.... Guess I need to look up material yeild strengths

I look into lubricity properties 1st. Probably why they used "plastic" Is that nylon or a delrin? I'd look into a graphite composite possibly w/teflon?

Man, I think we need a resident Chrysler Engineer from the old days to shed some insight here for us on time to time (hint hint:thumb:)

[Juggy]

I look into lubricity properties 1st. Probably why they used "plastic" Is that nylon or a delrin? I'd look into a graphite composite possibly w/teflon?

Man, I think we need a resident Chrysler Engineer from the old days to shed some insight here for us on time to time (hint hint:thumb:)

nice thinking!!

uummmm theres another metal that would work pretty good too. but its kind of hard and sticky to machine, i cant even remember what it was called, but the stuff is perforated, its made with all kinds of tiny micron sized holes to allow air to flow through the piece of metal. altho i do not know how big of a micron it would take for oil to allow to "soak" into it, it was more or less designed to flow air.

but after writing that and noticing you mention teflon...are you saying it is best to shed the oil from the pads, rather then absorb?

[cordes]

I've got a set of 525/520/555 pads at the machine shop now. I'm waiting on a quote, but the guy is taking forever. You would think the economy is in full swing the way they are knocking out expensive looking stuff in there.

Anyway, I do think that they need to be made out of a harder material. The guy at the prototype place was recommending hardened bronze, but I don't know what he is basing that off of.

My concern with going too hard is that we will start to wear the slider that it rides in since it is only Al if I'm not mistaken.

Either way, we need to do something. All of the transmissions I'm pulling apart these days have rough looking fork pads even if the gears look good.

[Directconnection]

I've got a set of 525/520/555 pads at the machine shop now. I'm waiting on a quote, but the guy is taking forever. You would think the economy is in full swing the way they are knocking out expensive looking stuff in there.

Anyway, I do think that they need to be made out of a harder material. The guy at the prototype place was recommending hardened bronze, but I don't know what he is basing that off of.

My concern with going too hard is that we will start to wear the slider that it rides in since it is only Al if I'm not mistaken.

Either way, we need to do something. All of the transmissions I'm pulling apart these days have rough looking fork pads even if the gears look good.

They used a "plastic" from the factory for a reason.... NOT because they were being cheap arses. Let's try and find out why (too hard wearing out the synchros?)

[cordes]

They used a "plastic" from the factory for a reason.... NOT because they were being cheap arses. Let's try and find out why (too hard wearing out the synchros?)

Actually, I'm willing to bet that cost was a major contributor in the decision to go with a plastic piece. The cost of raw materials alone would make for a huge price difference, let alone the cost of casting or machining vs. molding plastic. That would make a very large difference spread out over thousands of units to a bean counter.

Are you suggesting that the plastic pads compress somehow to allow for some desired effect on the synchro ring or any of the dogs? Or are you suggesting, as I did, that the plastic is softer than the Al so it won't wear the grove it rides in like another material may?

[MiniMopar]

The pads ride in a groove in the slider. They don't touch the synchronizer (stop) rings. The slider is extremely hard material...it has to be. It is what is taking the material off the dogs of the gears! Synchronization happens due to the friction between the stop ring (which is always engaged with the slider) and the cone on the gear. Push a stop ring against gear in your hand once and try to spin it. It makes an impressive amount of friction for something dripping with oil. The friction between the pads and the slider pales in comparison and since the slider is always fully-engaged to the mainshaft (the wheels), it plays no part in synchronization of the gears anyway.

As for cost not being the issue...I'd have to disagree with that one. :) Once setup with the molds and process, you can pop out thousands of pads for what it costs to machine one of them out of brass or any metal. There may be some wear advantages to plastic but it comes at a big cost: durability.

[BadAssPerformance]

Are you suggesting that the plastic pads compress somehow to allow for some desired effect on the synchro ring or any of the dogs?

I thought about this the first time I missed 3rd with this trans. I think the softness of the plastic allows them to possibly grip the sliders' side walls to help slow the geartrain during shifts maybe?


Or are you suggesting, as I did, that the plastic is softer than the Al so it won't wear the grove it rides in like another material may?

Hmmm... I'll look for wear in the sliders.


BTW everyone, generic "brass" is soft. I wish I knew what grade I was using (it was an unlabeled chunk on the shelf inthe shop) , however most common grades are VERY similar to the hardness of typical engineered thermoplastics like Acetal (Delrin) and PA66 (Nylon) ... I'm thinking about making some out of harder brass now? hmmm...

[MiniMopar]

I thought about this the first time I missed 3rd with this trans. I think the softness of the plastic allows them to possibly grip the sliders' side walls to help slow the geartrain during shifts maybe?

The sliders are always engaged to the main shaft. The main shaft is always engaged to the diff and therefore the wheels. The input shaft is what is being synchronized to the main shaft, so the friction between the pads and the slider has no effect on shifting other than to slow your car down a very tiny amount (plastic brake pads).


BTW everyone, generic "brass" is soft. I wish I knew what grade I was using (it was an unlabeled chunk on the shelf inthe shop) , however most common grades are VERY similar to the hardness of typical engineered thermoplastics like Acetal (Delrin) and PA66 (Nylon) ... I'm thinking about making some out of harder brass now? hmmm...

I think bronze might be ideal, but I don't know how that is to machine or how brittle it can be?

[Directconnection]

Oilite (sp?) is a bronze used for making bushings. They have an oil impregnated into it. Kinda funny when you machine them, as they start smoking like you are using cutting oil. You can see the oil weep out when it gets hot.

[Juggy]

The sliders are always engaged to the main shaft. The main shaft is always engaged to the diff and therefore the wheels. The input shaft is what is being synchronized to the main shaft, so the friction between the pads and the slider has no effect on shifting other than to slow your car down a very tiny amount (plastic brake pads).



I think bronze might be ideal, but I don't know how that is to machine or how brittle it can be?

does not sound like a very good cost effective alternative, it is also more prone to corrosion and i cant see it having very good thermal properties considering it will heat up and cool down with the trans

[black86glhs]

Ballistics nylon? Would that make the trans.......wait for it...........bullit proof???!!!:eyebrows::p:D

[Reeves]

I look into lubricity properties 1st. Probably why they used "plastic" Is that nylon or a delrin? I'd look into a graphite composite possibly w/teflon?

Man, I think we need a resident Chrysler Engineer from the old days to shed some insight here for us on time to time (hint hint:thumb:)

The '2.2 Complete Review' book (1983 or 1984) says they ditched the stock pads for racing, and built the fork up with weld and then machined to fit in the slider.



I've got a set of 525/520/555 pads at the machine shop now. I'm waiting on a quote, but the guy is taking forever. You would think the economy is in full swing the way they are knocking out expensive looking stuff in there.

Anyway, I do think that they need to be made out of a harder material. The guy at the prototype place was recommending hardened bronze, but I don't know what he is basing that off of.

My concern with going too hard is that we will start to wear the slider that it rides in since it is only Al if I'm not mistaken.

Either way, we need to do something. All of the transmissions I'm pulling apart these days have rough looking fork pads even if the gears look good.

My vote is for the bronze.

Slider is not aluminum. It is cast steel or iron iirc.


Oilite (sp?) is a bronze used for making bushings. They have an oil impregnated into it. Kinda funny when you machine them, as they start smoking like you are using cutting oil. You can see the oil weep out when it gets hot.

And, generally speaking, when you see that oil coming out when it's hot, it's about empty.

[turbovanman²]

I have not measured the wear but it is what I would call significant for the amoutn of use. I am contemplating if new plastic ones would have lasted as long or longer?



Do you mean "insignificant"?

All our bikes use a aluminum fork pad but they look like they've been hardened? They never wear, everything else does except that part, :(

I can ask the guy that's doing my gears what he thinks of a material to use, he has some super hard stuff he made my crank keyway out of, :eyebrows:

[zin]

..., but the stuff is perforated, its made with all kinds of tiny micron sized holes to allow air to flow through the piece of metal.

Sounds kinda like sintered bronze...

Glass reinforced Teflon might be good, if you can get it in the right durometer grade... No, I have not a clue as to what that would be, sorry, I'm just an idea man...;)

Mike

[zin]

I just had a thought, it may be irrelevant, but it might make some sense as to why plastic is living where metal is not...

A friend of mine that used to work for JE pistons was quizzing me on strong/hard metals, it seems that the Cup guys where having some issues with pins freezing in the pin boss of the pistons, the solution that seemed to help was to put a "diamond" coating on the pins making them extremely hard on the surface... The more dissimilar the hardness of the two materials were, the better they lived. In this case they couldn't really do much for the piston material as they use standard forgings for a starting point for almost anything... Anyway, just wanted to share that thought.

Mike

[MiniMopar]

You don't want glass in your trans! :)

[BadAssPerformance]

The sliders are always engaged to the main shaft. The main shaft is always engaged to the diff and therefore the wheels. The input shaft is what is being synchronized to the main shaft, so the friction between the pads and the slider has no effect on shifting other than to slow your car down a very tiny amount (plastic brake pads).

I think bronze might be ideal, but I don't know how that is to machine or how brittle it can be?

OK that theory is out the window LOL! "the slider bone is conencted to the shift bone" LOL

Copper is the element.. Brass is Cu & Zinc, Bronze id Cu and Tin... Both have VERY similar properties and a TON of varieties...


Ballistics nylon? Would that make the trans.......wait for it...........bullit proof???!!!:eyebrows::p:D

LOL! Good one!

Hmmm... Kevlar stock is actually cheaper than some of the Brass/Bronze options


Do you mean "insignificant"?

All our bikes use a aluminum fork pad but they look like they've been hardened? They never wear, everything else does except that part, :(

I can ask the guy that's doing my gears what he thinks of a material to use, he has some super hard stuff he made my crank keyway out of, :eyebrows:

Nope, meant significant. I do not think it should be worn like that with that few of miles and runs on it.


I just had a thought, it may be irrelevant, but it might make some sense as to why plastic is living where metal is not...

A friend of mine that used to work for JE pistons was quizzing me on strong/hard metals, it seems that the Cup guys where having some issues with pins freezing in the pin boss of the pistons, the solution that seemed to help was to put a "diamond" coating on the pins making them extremely hard on the surface... The more dissimilar the hardness of the two materials were, the better they lived. In this case they couldn't really do much for the piston material as they use standard forgings for a starting point for almost anything... Anyway, just wanted to share that thought.

Mike

I am not sure plastic would have lived any better?

Interesting theory ... less area would help and allow for possible lubrication.


You don't want glass in your trans! :)

X2! :)


OK, I got some new material on the way... stay tuned!

[turbovanman²]

Nope, meant significant. I do not think it should be worn like that with that few of miles and runs on it.


Ok, hard to see the wear looking at pics.

[86Shelby]

I think Mike's point is right on the money. Using brass, bronze or other metal is simply going to cause one of the pieces to wear quickly. Sintered bronze may be a reasonable idea, but I'd hate to have it crack as I've never seen it used anywhere other than low load shaft bushings.

[Darkapollo]

Just putting out a little wrench for the works here..

Maybe Im not looking at it right.. but are you sure its worn? not just deformed? IIRC soft brass kinda self lubricates when it wears. I might be way off base though. I use brass for a lot of heavy wear parts in RC boats, and when it wears it turns to a dust that acts like little bearings.

Brass is also used for a lot of Synchros in newer manuals because it deforms and makes a better mesh since the two dog gears become perfectly mated.

[BadAssPerformance]

"wear" in my book is defined as material not where it is supposed to be. You are correct in your thinking that it was smashed (yeilded) out of the way as brass is maleable and thats how the stock plastic ones wear as well. I do think that some of it was in fact ground off tho as when a material is compressed it has to go somewhere or get mroe dense and I did not see that on these exactly. The plastic pads squish out of the way... and on the brass 1-2 pads did this but the 3-4 pads are just missing material.

I think the brass originally used was typical soft brass which makes a great bearing, like plastic, but cannot handle the extra load, like plastic. Looking at harder materials now. Need to guess at the hardness of the slider...

[shackwrrr]

http://www.libertysgears.com/services.htm

these guys use bronze. and heavy duty transmissions in tractors and farm equipment have used bronze for years.

I think the reason is mainly price (molded rather than milled) and another reason is noise transfer. The bronze is more likely to transmit drivetrain noise than the plastic.

I dont think there will be any adverse effects of using bronze, your blocker rings( syncro rings) are made of bronze and they dont wear too fast nor do they wear the hub. If you were worried about the slider wearing the bronze you could easily polish the groove and reduce the friction greatly.

Also if you are having problems with crushing the sliders then you really need a rod brake on your shifter. That much load on the shift fork only means that you are pushing it past the gear and that can cause other damage too. Maddog STS can install a rod brake on your shifter.

"The fact is, bronze is stronger and harder than any other common metal alloy except steel. It does not easily break under stress, is corrosion resistant, and is easy to form into finished shapes by molding, casting, or machining."

That is why it is used in valve guides, valve seats, synchros, and bushings. Its the hardest thing you are going to get that wont wear steel. I dont see the need for oilite though since you already have oil in the trans. A good quality Beryllium copper(a bronze variation) would be a good choice.


http://machinedesign.com/article/bronze-and-copper-alloy-bearings-1115
http://www.russianbells.com/founding/bronzealloy.html

[Darkapollo]

I wonder how those would have held up under less abusive situations? Slamming gears is hard on ANY trans. Im willing to bet most of the damage came from the 1320..

[BadAssPerformance]

http://www.libertysgears.com/services.htm

these guys use bronze. and heavy duty transmissions in tractors and farm equipment have used bronze for years.

I think the reason is mainly price (molded rather than milled) and another reason is noise transfer. The bronze is more likely to transmit drivetrain noise than the plastic.

I dont think there will be any adverse effects of using bronze, your blocker rings( syncro rings) are made of bronze and they dont wear too fast nor do they wear the hub. If you were worried about the slider wearing the bronze you could easily polish the groove and reduce the friction greatly.

Also if you are having problems with crushing the sliders then you really need a rod brake on your shifter. That much load on the shift fork only means that you are pushing it past the gear and that can cause other damage too. Maddog STS can install a rod brake on your shifter.

"The fact is, bronze is stronger and harder than any other common metal alloy except steel. It does not easily break under stress, is corrosion resistant, and is easy to form into finished shapes by molding, casting, or machining."

That is why it is used in valve guides, valve seats, synchros, and bushings. Its the hardest thing you are going to get that wont wear steel. I dont see the need for oilite though since you already have oil in the trans. A good quality Beryllium copper(a bronze variation) would be a good choice.


http://machinedesign.com/article/bronze-and-copper-alloy-bearings-1115
http://www.russianbells.com/founding/bronzealloy.html

Yea, I'd put money on stock being plastic for cost. And really in "normal" driving there is not much load on them to cause them to wear like this.

Got a MadDog STS right here... had it in when the trans was put in. I backed the rod brakes off as I thought they might haev been keeping it out of gear and still missed 3rd, put a stocker in and I started hitting 3rd... I shift fast and think the STS was just too fast for me to time it right. Not sure if the rod brake would reduce pad wear too much.

Yep, I read a lot about brass and bronze today... there are an amazing amount of options too.


I wonder how those would have held up under less abusive situations? Slamming gears is hard on ANY trans. Im willing to bet most of the damage came from the 1320..

I'm guessing they would last as long as the plastic ones, maybe a little longer? Really common brass is similar yeild strength and harness to Acetal so it makes sense it would last about the same.

Definitely abuse from the 1/4... over 100 passes in 200 miles.. so ~13% of the mileage is at WOT and shifting like a madman, LOL

[shackwrrr]

Yea, I'd put money on stock being plastic for cost. And really in "normal" driving there is not much load on them to cause them to wear like this.

Got a MadDog STS right here... had it in when the trans was put in. I backed the rod brakes off as I thought they might haev been keeping it out of gear and still missed 3rd, put a stocker in and I started hitting 3rd... I shift fast and think the STS was just too fast for me to time it right. Not sure if the rod brake would reduce pad wear too much.

Yep, I read a lot about brass and bronze today... there are an amazing amount of options too.



I'm guessing they would last as long as the plastic ones, maybe a little longer? Really common brass is similar yeild strength and harness to Acetal so it makes sense it would last about the same.

Definitely abuse from the 1/4... over 100 passes in 200 miles.. so ~13% of the mileage is at WOT and shifting like a madman, LOL


I would say that alot of the shift pad breakage is from overshifting. I would take that maddog and take the spacers out and install a stock shifter and just use the rod brakes and see how your shift fork pads hold up. The polishing would probably help alot too since the groove is fairly rough.

[BadAssPerformance]

I would say that alot of the shift pad breakage is from overshifting. I would take that maddog and take the spacers out and install a stock shifter and just use the rod brakes and see how your shift fork pads hold up. The polishing would probably help alot too since the groove is fairly rough.

On the 1-2 where the mterial was smashed out of the way I could see this, but on 3-4 where the material is missing I think its more from running on the slider. Good idea to polish... and I was thinking about putting the STS back in.

[cordes]

"wear" in my book is defined as material not where it is supposed to be. You are correct in your thinking that it was smashed (yeilded) out of the way as brass is maleable and thats how the stock plastic ones wear as well. I do think that some of it was in fact ground off tho as when a material is compressed it has to go somewhere or get mroe dense and I did not see that on these exactly. The plastic pads squish out of the way... and on the brass 1-2 pads did this but the 3-4 pads are just missing material.

I think the brass originally used was typical soft brass which makes a great bearing, like plastic, but cannot handle the extra load, like plastic. Looking at harder materials now. Need to guess at the hardness of the slider...

When I stop by the machine shop next time I'll have the guy test the hardness of the sliders. I now know the ring gear is between a 50 and 55 on the rockwell scale. According to all the machinists I've talked to so far, "Wow, that's pretty hard".

[Reeves]

"Wow, that's pretty hard".

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25179&thumb=1 ('http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25179')

[puppet]

A word of caution on using Beryllium copper ... it's pretty toxic. As in don't breathe it or get any on your person when machining it. They used it a bunch as seats for Titanium valves for the extra cushion but the toxicity has become even too much for those guys to even deal with.

If you want something hardened ... look these guys up:
http://www.lovattprocesses.com/index1.htm

[BadAssPerformance]

Yeah, I heard that about beryllium... also, not tryiong to go too hard... just harder than before.

[MiniMopar]

On the 1-2 where the mterial was smashed out of the way I could see this, but on 3-4 where the material is missing I think its more from running on the slider. Good idea to polish... and I was thinking about putting the STS back in.

When you look at the contact area between the two designs (1-2 and 5 versus 3-4), it makes sense the 3-4 pad would wear faster and also why they break. I don't know why they are designed this way (with the bevel and all). The only thing I can figure is that there is some problem with the design of that fork/shifter and it flexes. If that's true, you don't want too wide of a contact area or it will put uneven pressure on the slider, which will then put uneven pressure on the stop ring.

They really beefed up the other pads compared to the old trannies, so I can't imagine they would make the 3-4 pads so dinky on purpose.

[black86glhs]

Yeah, I heard that about beryllium... also, not tryiong to go too hard... just harder than before.

Crush a Cialis tablet and sprinkle it on the soft bronze. :thumb:
Should make it harder and last longer!!!!!:leghump::whip:

[Reeves]

Crush a Cialis tablet and sprinkle it on the soft bronze. :thumb:
Should make it harder and last longer!!!!!:leghump::whip:

Call your machinist if your pad lasts more than 4 hours.

[BadAssPerformance]

When you look at the contact area between the two designs (1-2 and 5 versus 3-4), it makes sense the 3-4 pad would wear faster and also why they break. I don't know why they are designed this way (with the bevel and all). The only thing I can figure is that there is some problem with the design of that fork/shifter and it flexes. If that's true, you don't want too wide of a contact area or it will put uneven pressure on the slider, which will then put uneven pressure on the stop ring.

They really beefed up the other pads compared to the old trannies, so I can't imagine they would make the 3-4 pads so dinky on purpose.

Seriously... the tie-fighter shaped pads were obviously done for a reason or several reasons... but durability was not one of them?


Call your machinist if your pad lasts more than 4 hours.

LOL, you funny guys :D

[rbryant]

I don't know much about shift pads but...

If I had the time and energy I would do the following to try and learn:

Look at transmissions from more expensive cars and see what they did... What did BMW or Mercedes do with their designs? What about the imports.

Nothing against the NV designs but they just had more of a budget constraint sometimes. What do the newer dodge manual transmissions use?

I would then try to find a transmission that has a similarly designed fork to ours and see what they did for pads and research if there were problems with it.

-Rich

[tryingbe]

I'd be happy if there are OEM plastic pads available.

[Aries_Turbo]

does anyone know what the actual plastic is and what the hardness is?

anyone know about plastics that can be cast fairly easily?

ie, get some polymer mixes, make some molds and cast a crapload of these rather than whittling down metal?

brian

[MiniMopar]

Injection molding is actually quite expensive to do small runs of. You need access to very expensive equipment, molds that cost 1000's of dollars to have made, and the right materials. Once you are setup you can make millions of them, which brings the price down. But who is going to buy them? Just ask the odometergears.com guy....

[Aries_Turbo]

i wasnt talking real big production, i was talking a small scale, in the garage thing.

not big fancy CNC derived molds, but old fashioned, take an intact pad, smear mold release on it, then make a mold out of something quick and easy, then cast a bunch one by one in cheap, quick setting epoxy and then use them make a bigger mold the same way as the first that has, say 10-20 capacity. then work on getting a good polymer to use.

im just wondering what polymer would be a good choice.

brian

[black86glhs]

Acetal is going to be your best bet. I'll put money on the factory ones made from it. That is what I would look into.

http://www.dynalabcorp.com/technical_info_acetal.asp

[Aries_Turbo]

hmmm doesnt look like something that can be brewed in the garage lol.

now, if someone were to get a cad drawing of the pads needed, i have a friend with a CNC machine. i could get him to whip up a quote. dont worry, its not a large operation... the CNC is in the garage... he also has a dyno in his yard lol.

or make a DIY CNC machine lol.

Brian

[135sohc]

I'd be happy if there are OEM plastic pads available.
:amen:

[black86glhs]

I'm going to take a look at the 555 shift pads when I get the other trans out of my car. I know a guy that has a 4 axis machine. Might ask him if he could make something.

[Shadow]

What about Bronze Silicon, same as the stuff they use for HD guides? Prob as strong of a bronze as your going to find + not as britol.

[Aries_Turbo]

what about a harder durometer polyurethane? can that handle oil and some heat? its easy enough to cast at home.

http://www.sdplastics.com/polyuret.html

looks like its ok to 225 F for short durations. i dont think our manual boxes get that hot right? maybe in a road race situation with a quaife/OBX but thats detrimental for the gear lube/oil anyway so a cooler and pump should be added at that point.

Brian

[black86glhs]

what about a harder durometer polyurethane? can that handle oil and some heat? its easy enough to cast at home.

http://www.sdplastics.com/polyuret.html

looks like its ok to 225 F for short durations. i dont think our manual boxes get that hot right? maybe in a road race situation with a quaife/OBX but thats detrimental for the gear lube/oil anyway so a cooler and pump should be added at that point.

BrianDidn't think about that. Hmmmm, that might work. I agree the manuals trans is not going to see temps that high.

[thefitisgay]

subscribed :thumb:

[Twizter68]

I would stay away from any sintered bronze or similar materials; sintering is the process where the metal powder is heated up almost to the melting point, then pressed into whatever shape/form it's needed to be in, then finish machined. It's cheap to do, but not very long lasting under high wear situations; that's why it's used in low load bushings. Sintered material would crack and pulverize in this use.

Ditto on beryllium, except it's a known carcinogen. We use it for EMI protection on aircraft (fantastic conductor) but we have to use a hole punch for making rivet holes...not allowed to drill it! To think, all those years I sucked up beryllium dust changing brakes on A-6E's.....

[BadAssPerformance]

What about Bronze Silicon, same as the stuff they use for HD guides? Prob as strong of a bronze as your going to find + not as britol.

After looking at the brass pads and seeing them get squished like the plastic ones do (and determiing that soft brass and acetal have similar hardnesses and yeild strengths) , I ordered up some harder bronze. Only $150 for a foot of this shipped to my door :o

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25254&thumb=1 ('http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25254')


what about a harder durometer polyurethane? can that handle oil and some heat? its easy enough to cast at home.

I'm pretty sure plastic was used for production for two reasons

1 - Cheapest way to do high volume parts
2 - If the pad comes apart the bits have a better chance of just getting squished in the gears instead of binding or explodign them like a chunk of metal tends to do.


I would stay away from any sintered bronze or similar materials; sintering is the process where the metal powder is heated up almost to the melting point, then pressed into whatever shape/form it's needed to be in, then finish machined. It's cheap to do, but not very long lasting under high wear situations; that's why it's used in low load bushings. Sintered material would crack and pulverize in this use.

Ditto on beryllium, except it's a known carcinogen. We use it for EMI protection on aircraft (fantastic conductor) but we have to use a hole punch for making rivet holes...not allowed to drill it! To think, all those years I sucked up beryllium dust changing brakes on A-6E's.....

Yeah, sintered bronze would not be good for these due to the loading on them. Works great for shaft bushings tho.

Beryllium is a neat metal that I've only worked with once. Figured I'd go basic instead of something as exotic tho.

[black86glhs]

You taking the bronze to someone and having them carve out the pads or are you doing it free hand?

[MiniMopar]

I'd be game to help you test a set of bronze 3-4 bushings, JT. ;)

[BadAssPerformance]

CNC most of it, then set the height on a Bridgeport then file corners.

[BadAssPerformance]

I'd be game to help you test a set of bronze 3-4 bushings, JT. ;)

A568? In your daily driver? ... Hmmm. That sounds like a plan.

[MiniMopar]

A568? In your daily driver? ... Hmmm. That sounds like a plan.

Yup and yup. I have one set of plastic pads left and am getting really tired of shifting without a 3rd gear.

[BadAssPerformance]

Damn... How long do they last? Sounds like a good test car for sure.

[Reeves]

I'll send you a set of brand new 525/520/555 shift pads so you have the pattern to make them as well. Then I'll test them for you as well :amen:

[puppet]

Just digging around looking for some feedback on the "aftermarket" pads .... seems replacement materials aren't all they're cracked up to be. Couple posts from guys that rebuild for a living see just as much wear or more with bronze replacements. The nylons used in stock form have better wear properties.
Example:http://www.camaroperformers.com/camaro-tech/transmission/camp-0907-chevy-t56-transmission/photo_15.html

I think Brian is on the right path ... finding a tougher nylon with good wear properties ... and try not to miss a shift :P

Just had another thought ... any of New Process' later model manual transmissions share this pad? ... something close in size?

[MiniMopar]

Damn... How long do they last? Sounds like a good test car for sure.

One nasty missed shift is all it takes. First set (new after tranny rebuild) got trashed at the Grove. 2nd set got trashed at SDAC18 (trashed the 1-2 pads shortly after...try driving daily without 2nd OR 3rd). This set (I assume it's the pads) got trashed after a "spirited" incident.

The lesson? If you are missing shifts, figure out why. In my case, the brass on 3rd is done. Even after I put new pads in the last time, it didn't like high RPM shifts. All it took was one attempted power shift and it was over.

[BadAssPerformance]

+1 miss shifts abuse them... and shifting in general. There was almost no wear on the 1st side of the 1-2 pads, go figure, I dont downshift this car hard.

[135sohc]

When these are worn down could that be causing a 'notchy' feeling when pushing to 3rd & 5th ?

[BadAssPerformance]

On an A568? A555 = notchy by design

[135sohc]

A523 so 568 for comparison

[bfarroo]

I think some of the plastics out there are the way to go. We use some different plastics at work for conveyors and friction areas that are so tough that you can't sand them with a 36 grit disk on a bench sander. You have to machine it. There has to be something out there that is a little stronger than the stock plastic but able to hold up to more abuse.

[Directconnection]

Couple posts from guys that rebuild for a living see just as much wear or more with bronze replacements. The nylons used in stock form have better wear properties.
Example:http://www.camaroperformers.com/camaro-tech/transmission/camp-0907-chevy-t56-transmission/photo_15.html

I think Brian is on the right path ... finding a tougher nylon with good wear properties ... and try not to miss a shift :P


Hmm... didn't I say this back on page 1? Then, I got shot down as plastic was used because it was cheaper....

There are so many different plastics, and the such.... look in the Machinery's Handbook... (mine isn't here with me... it's at work) thay may give out all the technical hoopla and properties. I say... find something tough like Nylon, but maybe with Teflon impregnated....

[BadAssPerformance]

Agreed, there are some cool plastics out there.

BUT

In the 1980's plastic was used... because it was cheaper.

And today... because it is cheaper... at least than brass.

Who said that the old performance book said they welded up the ends and cut the fork to the pad size? If you own a plastic mold and badass plastics were available you could sample them easily... just sayin'

[Directconnection]

Agreed, there are some cool plastics out there.

BUT

In the 1980's plastic was used... because it was cheaper.

And today... because it is cheaper... at least than brass.

Who said that the old performance book said they welded up the ends and cut the fork to the pad size? If you own a plastic mold and badass plastics were available you could sample them easily... just sayin'

The '80's weren't 1952, dude! And technically... the 568 was "1990s" ;)

In the 80's... 1983... ACS made the "Z-Rim" It was a plastic racing BMX wheel made of Zytel I believe. So, technically, they were doing kewl things back then:D But I am sure the plastics technology has improved many times over.

What I meant to say in my previous post about the Machinery's Handbook:they give you all the property characteristics of just about any metal available... and I believe they do the same for plastics, too.

Google might be our friend ;-)

In the medical field, a lot of the lab machinery and equipment used Delrin. One item we made was a manual machine used to press lab test trays together for storage (help me on this Alan) Corning was the company we made them for. Delrin was used for the cam that the handle attached to, which rode against a stainless steel follower. Delrin does seem a tad bit softer than the nylons we used in other applications, but the nylon doesn't have the lubricity quality of Delrin.

[BadAssPerformance]

The '80's weren't 1952, dude! And technically... the 568 was "1990s" ;)

In the 80's... 1983... ACS made the "Z-Rim" It was a plastic racing BMX wheel made of Zytel I believe. So, technically, they were doing kewl things back then:D But I am sure the plastics technology has improved many times over.

What I meant to say in my previous post about the Machinery's Handbook:they give you all the property characteristics of just about any metal available... and I believe they do the same for plastics, too.

Google might be our friend ;-)

In the medical field, a lot of the lab machinery and equipment used Delrin. One item we made was a manual machine used to press lab test trays together for storage (help me on this Alan) Corning was the company we made them for. Delrin was used for the cam that the handle attached to, which rode against a stainless steel follower. Delrin does seem a tad bit softer than the nylons we used in other applications, but the nylon doesn't have the lubricity quality of Delrin.

Right, and the plastic in an A568 is different than an A460?

Zytel™ = Nylon = 1960's

I have access to far better material resources than google. ;) heck, if I pull a favor I can find out exactly what the OEM pads are made of. Looking closely it kinda appears they used a coupel different materials.

Delrin™ = Acetal = 1960's

I laugh everytime I see that one shifter add that says "uses space age Delrin™" .. well, the space age was the 60's :nod:

With plastic, the fact of the matter is you can get almost anything imaginable if you want to pay the price... teflon filled, glass filles, etc. MILLIONS of choices.

If there is a need, I could make stock replacements in an actual injection mold out of Delrin (or whatever they are made of) for a fairly reasonable price (if we made a crapload of them, LOL) ... yes, I have the resources.

BUT, this thread is not about that. Its trying to develop a badass shift fork pad that can survive me beating the hell out of it. :nod:

[Aries_Turbo]

if delrin and zytel are the space age 60's, what are you doing playing around in the bronze age? (3300-400 BC) lol

youve already proven that brass cant handle it, and others have said that bronze in other trannies havent held up that well either.

id try making a mold yourself from a brand new pad (or a brass one that youve already made) and try finding a poly mix like the ones i posted.

i think you are going to be taking it back apart when the bronze begins to wear.

metal on metal isnt going to be as slick as metal on some type of plastic.

brian

[cordes]

Have the bronze ones hard chromed?

[MiniMopar]

We are splitting hairs a bit here about "ages". Just because you can make a serviceable bushing out of plastic doesn't make it better than bronze. A lot of stuff is made out of plastic instead of metal these days because it is "good enough" and far, far cheaper. That doesn't make it better. On the other hand, I don't think anyone is arguing that there aren't plastics better then bronze or whatever. I'm sure they exist. If someone knows something specific, great!

As far as finding out what the originals are made out of...who cares other than for posterity?

[Directconnection]

if delrin and zytel are the space age 60's, what are you doing playing around in the bronze age? (3300-400 BC) lol

youve already proven that brass cant handle it, and others have said that bronze in other trannies havent held up that well either.

brian

Hahaha! Good point ;) But on the flip-side.... just because it's an older material doesn't mean it is not capable of anything other than low rpm/SFM bushings.

What *WE* need to do is find out *WHY* the bronze ones wore out, vs the "inferior" 1960's era plastics :D Seriously, we need to find out "why" and then we can choose the right material from there.

[2.216VTurbo]

While skimming thru these pages, I'm thinking the whole time PEEK (Polyetherehterkeytone) would be perfect for this application. We use it for most of the spinal spacers, intervertibral spacers etc. The stuff is tough as nails and very machineable (I've heard they use it for bearing materials on the space station) but one small downside is that it costs more than gold ounce for ounce.:confused: There is only one manufacturer in the world (patented formula) http://www.invibio.com/biocompatible-polymers/peek-optima.php We do use Delrin for the sterilizable trays that hold the implants but it's way too soft for pad material.

[Directconnection]

While skimming thru these pages, I'm thinking the whole time PEEK (Polyetherehterkeytone) would be perfect for this application. but one small downside is that it costs more than gold ounce for ounce.:confused:

My friend's machine shop does lots of prototype and one-off multi-axis government work, and I believe makes parts from this stuff. Just ONE sheet that is like 1/4" thick, and like 10" x 18" or so was in the tens of thousands of $$$ I can't remember if it was like $20k or.... but wetoddid to work with that stuff. No "extras" in the run are allowed... if he screwed up one job, he'd have to work a looong time before he broke even at only $500 paid for each job.

[BadAssPerformance]

Ya know, sometime you guys like listening to yourself talk and not read ;) ... did you miss this post from Page 2? Well, i think somewhere I noted that 3-4 also appeared to be squished as well... not MIA material


"wear" in my book is defined as material not where it is supposed to be. You are correct in your thinking that it was smashed (yeilded) out of the way as brass is maleable and thats how the stock plastic ones wear as well. I do think that some of it was in fact ground off tho as when a material is compressed it has to go somewhere or get mroe dense and I did not see that on these exactly. The plastic pads squish out of the way... and on the brass 1-2 pads did this but the 3-4 pads are just missing material.

I think the brass originally used was typical soft brass which makes a great bearing, like plastic, but cannot handle the extra load, like plastic. Looking at harder materials now. Need to guess at the hardness of the slider...

Now I'll address your concerns.


if delrin and zytel are the space age 60's, what are you doing playing around in the bronze age? (3300-400 BC) lol

LOL, good one. ...and I dont think anyone argues that ther are better versiond of both


youve already proven that brass cant handle it, and others have said that bronze in other trannies havent held up that well either.

1 - I used Brass before, not bronze
2 - The brass was soft brass, similar yeild strength and hardness to Delrin™ or Nylon™ no wonder it got squished the same!?


id try making a mold yourself from a brand new pad (or a brass one that youve already made) and try finding a poly mix like the ones i posted.

For one-offs its WAAAAY easier to just CNC it, even plastic. I would only make a mold for making 3 or 4 digit quantities


i think you are going to be taking it back apart when the bronze begins to wear.

Keep thinking :thumb:


metal on metal isnt going to be as slick as metal on some type of plastic.

In some cases... in lubricated cases metal on metal can work quite well.... any metal on metal sliding interfaces in your engine? :rolleyes:


We are splitting hairs a bit here about "ages". Just because you can make a serviceable bushing out of plastic doesn't make it better than bronze. A lot of stuff is made out of plastic instead of metal these days because it is "good enough" and far, far cheaper. That doesn't make it better. On the other hand, I don't think anyone is arguing that there aren't plastics better then bronze or whatever. I'm sure they exist. If someone knows something specific, great!

As far as finding out what the originals are made out of...who cares other than for posterity?

+1


Hahaha! Good point ;) But on the flip-side.... just because it's an older material doesn't mean it is not capable of anything other than low rpm/SFM bushings.

What *WE* need to do is find out *WHY* the bronze ones wore out, vs the "inferior" 1960's era plastics :D Seriously, we need to find out "why" and then we can choose the right material from there.

See above.. soft brass is soft... live and learn, my bad... I chalk it up to R&D :nod:


While skimming thru these pages, I'm thinking the whole time PEEK (Polyetherehterkeytone) would be perfect for this application. We use it for most of the spinal spacers, intervertibral spacers etc. The stuff is tough as nails and very machineable (I've heard they use it for bearing materials on the space station) but one small downside is that it costs more than gold ounce for ounce.:confused: There is only one manufacturer in the world (patented formula) http://www.invibio.com/biocompatible-polymers/peek-optima.php We do use Delrin for the sterilizable trays that hold the implants but it's way too soft for pad material.

PEEK is some baddass shnitt :nod: stronger than many metals even steel...

BUT, a tad cost prohibitive...

[cordes]

If this PEEK is a patented deal we could look at the patent and reverse engineer it.

[puppet]

How about Teak .... or pine.

[Reeves]

Who said that the old performance book said they welded up the ends and cut the fork to the pad size? If you own a plastic mold and badass plastics were available you could sample them easily... just sayin'

It wasn't the Performance Handbook, is was the 2.2 Review by Hot Rod.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25317&thumb=1 ('http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25317')



BUT, a tad cost prohibitive...

LOL.

[shackwrrr]

I still dont see why you guys dont like bronze? Its been used in transmissions ever since transmissions have been invented its not going to hurt anything. Also, something I just thought of, do you think that the pads being somewhat loose on the fork could be leading to their breakage?

I was thinking of brazing the pads onto the forks, but can you braze bronze to aluminum.

the T56 guys have had this problem for years
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/manual-transmission/1289535-t56-shift-fork-pads-bronze-stock-nylon.html

And here is a clutch fork from a john deere "B", Same Idea and its bronze.

http://vintagetractors.com/Resources/B1620.JPG

This is like spending a week trying to figure something out and when you tell somebody they say, Dude, I knew that already.

[cordes]

I still dont see why you guys dont like bronze? Its been used in transmissions ever since transmissions have been invented its not going to hurt anything. Also, something I just thought of, do you think that the pads being somewhat loose on the fork could be leading to their breakage?

I was thinking of brazing the pads onto the forks, but can you braze bronze to aluminum.

the T56 guys have had this problem for years
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/manual-transmission/1289535-t56-shift-fork-pads-bronze-stock-nylon.html

And here is a clutch fork from a john deere "B", Same Idea and its bronze.

[IMG]http://vintagetractors.com/Resources/B1620.JPG

This is like spending a week trying to figure something out and when you tell somebody they say, Dude, I knew that already.

They aren't shifting that tractor while moving are they? The only thing I see shift on the fly is the old Olivers.

Also, the shift forks are steel.

Have we tested the hardness of the sliders yet?

[shackwrrr]

They aren't shifting that tractor while moving are they? The only thing I see shift on the fly is the old Olivers.

Also, the shift forks are steel.

Have we tested the hardness of the sliders yet?

That is the clutch release lever so it is under considerable load from the spinning clutch and spring pressure.

[cordes]

That is the clutch release lever so it is under considerable load from the spinning clutch and spring pressure.

I see.

[MiniMopar]

I still dont see why you guys dont like bronze? Its been used in transmissions ever since transmissions have been invented its not going to hurt anything. Also, something I just thought of, do you think that the pads being somewhat loose on the fork could be leading to their breakage?

Not sure about that, but one thing that does seem to contribute is reusing forks that have been running without pads for a while. The slider digs a nice groove into the fork and that leaves an uneven surface behind the pad, which probably makes it fracture.

[MiniMopar]

Have we tested the hardness of the sliders yet?

I mentioned it earlier. I haven't done any sort of testing, but i would expect them to be at least as hard as the gears themselves. i.e. very hard.

[cordes]

I mentioned it earlier. I haven't done any sort of testing, but i would expect them to be at least as hard as the gears themselves. i.e. very hard.

I know the ring gear of a 525 is somewhere between 50 and 55 on the rockwell scale. If the sliders are similar we could go with a pretty hard material if we needed to.

[Aries_Turbo]

that was quite a lengthy dissection just for a ball bust. :)

bronze is probably just fine.

i just want to play with making molds and trying different materials cause i think it would be fun.

if this works, you gonna have a run made? i have a 568 and a bunch of 523 that i need to go through.

Brian

[BadAssPerformance]

Ya know, I'm glad I didnt make a run the first time... would never hear the end of it if they wore at all, or how they worked in a GLH but not in a Shadow ;)

If they seem to last this time, sure can make a run, still have most of the golden log left, LOL

[Reeves]

or how they worked in a GLH but not in a Shadow ;)


LOLz!

[MR. X]

I want a sets of the bronze ones for the A568 and A555.

[black86glhs]

I want a sets of the bronze ones for the A568 and A555.2 sets for me!!!:thumb:

[onerippinturbo2]

i'll go for 2 sets of the bronze as well!

[MR. X]

Prices?

[Lotashelbys]

Hey JT if we figure out what we should make them out of are you gonna make a run or should I have my guy do it?

[BadAssPerformance]

Thanks for the interest everyone. First things first I'm working on figuring out the right material, then we'll look into price and a batch of them. :thumb:

Made some new 1-2 pads out of the bronze so we'll see how it does there vs. the brass too.

[Reaper1]

Subscribed....I wanna see where this goes!

[BadAssPerformance]

UPDATE

Since there are a couple other threads out there about pad issues or looking for pads I thought I would update this thread

I am experimenting with Bronze now as it should be waaaay better (stronger) than brass which actually has similar properties to the engineered plastics the OEM pads are made of. Looking back at the brass though, I feel that it lasted as long or longer than the plastic would have in the same 7000 rpm shift-missing environment :o

Miss a hard 7000 RPM shift and no pad is gonna have a good time no matter what material. I race my car a lot and I want the best material that can live with missed shifts cuz they do happen when racing all out.

Did the brass pads make me miss shifts? Nope. After installing the bronze pads I figured out I had a shifter cable bushing expire :(

Since the Z is down for a while we now have a pair of 3-4 pads installed in local daily driven A568 Daytona... more updates to come. :thumb:

[MiniMopar]

I'm looking forward to the day when we can build up a fully 3rd-class trans (all bronze ;).

[Force Fed Mopar]

Subscribed

[Reaper1]

Nice upate JT!!

[135sohc]

Any new test results ?

[BadAssPerformance]

UPDATE... New material working MUCH better than old material, see side by side picture and notably less wear. These have had more runs and missed shifts on them too. I put worn pads back in to get more testing on them.

Current test sample on on left, old prototype on right

34069

[Reaper1]

Yeah, I'd say that's working better!

[Ondonti]

Started my Duster up and it wants to move forward in Neutral. I guess I need to start paying attention because the hard to shift into 1 3 5 seems to be fatal now!
I don't wanna rebuild :P

BTW, just because OEM doesn't have the parts, what about aftermarket suppliers?
Nothing slightly similar but less expensive to PEEK ?

[135sohc]

Any aftermarket supply is just old oem stock that was purchased and put in the kit while they were still available to purchase.

[zin]

You might be surprised by what Doorman has/makes ... not that. I've checked.

Mike

[BadAssPerformance]

Started my Duster up and it wants to move forward in Neutral. I guess I need to start paying attention because the hard to shift into 1 3 5 seems to be fatal now!
I don't wanna rebuild :P

BTW, just because OEM doesn't have the parts, what about aftermarket suppliers?
Nothing slightly similar but less expensive to PEEK ?

What oil do you have? heavy oil can have enough viscous shear to do that.

No PEEK out there LOL...

[Ondonti]

What oil do you have? heavy oil can have enough viscous shear to do that.

No PEEK out there LOL...
Well its just 5w30.
I missed a FLAT shift August 2010 before racing my friend so I ended up granny shifting in paranoia against him. I drove the car home and then onto a trailer then it sat since the rear window popped out on the trip back to WA.
Car had always been hard to put into 1, 3, 5. Wonder if I bent something. I have had a few bad misses. Or I wonder if the oil turned to sludge while sitting :P After noticing the problem on a startup last week, I couldn't get into 1, 3, 5 with the motor off until I freaking fought for it and had the clutch in.
I thought about putting this OBX trans into my Spirit but not a broke trans.
I should have got that bearing tool for the 5 speeds. I have 2 that need work inside and now maybe 3.
PEEK just sounds either pervier or sexier depending how you look at it.

[BadAssPerformance]

Being that 1, 3 and 5 are all forward, maybe its a cable adjustment or wear issue?

[tryingbe]

BTW, just because OEM doesn't have the parts, what about aftermarket suppliers?



DORMAN

Get on webchat and ask the rep to sign it up for parts they can possibly make. More people ask, the better chance it'll be made.

http://messenger.providesupport.com/messenger/dorman.html

[2.216VTurbo]

What oil do you have? heavy oil can have enough viscous shear to do that.

No PEEK out there LOL...

So you know that Polyether Ether Keytone cost more than gold ounce for ounce(maybe not at $1900tho:D) but they use it in NASA for bearing surfaces and in spine surgery for artificial spacers. The stuff is awsome.Good to 650+ degrees f, durable, lightweight, nearly indestructable... Lets just suppose I could lay my hands on some that is unmachined, you got someone that could make pads and not burn much material? It machines like a dream, easy on cutters and stiff enough for tolerances in the .0005 range:) First set for you JT, second set for me:eyebrows:

[BadAssPerformance]

Hmmm... interesting. Hard part is the "not burning thru the material.... would depend on the size of the stock.

[tryingbe]

Shift fork pads for 1-2 is gone.
Shift fork pads for 3-4 and 5 is still available.

[135sohc]

Shift fork pads for 1-2 is gone.
Shift fork pads for 3-4 and 5 is still available.

If your referring to the black one used on the 520/555 thats not true anymore... ;)

[BadAssPerformance]

If your referring to the black one used on the 520/555 thats not true anymore... ;)

Doh!

BTW... if you have a set of NOS black and grey I'd be interested in borrowing/buying so I could measure them up...

[Reaper1]

If your referring to the black one used on the 520/555 thats not true anymore... ;)


OK...SPILL!!! I'm down for a set if there is one to be had!

[tryingbe]

If your referring to the black one used on the 520/555 thats not true anymore... ;)

I was at the dealer and in front of their parts catalog checker program, unless you bought them all today.

[135sohc]

From the information provided by the local dealership back in may the inventory at the central warehouse in MI was all there was left in chryslers supply system and I said 'all of them' when the guy asked how many. According to their locator service at the dealership level there were around 40 of them left scattered throughout the country. Sample calling of 4 dealers they wanted between $2.50-$6.00 each + ups.

[Reeves]

I do believe I have a set of whitish clear, grey, and black one's JT if you'd be interested in making some bronze ones.

[tryingbe]

I'm sure this machine can make us some..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZboxMsSz5Aw

[BadAssPerformance]

I do believe I have a set of whitish clear, grey, and black one's JT if you'd be interested in making some bronze ones.

Sweet. I'd like to borrow then to get dimensions... can you bring them this weekend?

[Reeves]

I'm sure this machine can make us some..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZboxMsSz5Aw

We have a few of those similar to that. We actually have made some production parts with them.


Sweet. I'd like to borrow then to get dimensions... can you bring them this weekend?

Sure. You might want to call to remind me though. LOL.

[Reaper1]

That printer is SCHWEEEET!!

[Reeves]

We have a few of those similar to that. We actually have made some production parts with them.



Sure. You might want to call to remind me though. LOL.

I got them with! Will be in Indy tomorrow evening.

[onerippinturbo2]

jt, i got brand new nos gray ones i would be willing to loan them for measurements and to allow the porduction of bronze ones for the community. i too have a fair amount of fork inserts(black) (clear/white/natural) whatever they call it and just 1 set of the gray ones. lmk if you want them, but like i said, just on loan, not for sale.

[BadAssPerformance]

I got them with! Will be in Indy tomorrow evening.

Sweet! BTW, did you get into the Comfort Inn?


jt, i got brand new nos gray ones i would be willing to loan them for measurements and to allow the porduction of bronze ones for the community. i too have a fair amount of fork inserts(black) (clear/white/natural) whatever they call it and just 1 set of the gray ones. lmk if you want them, but like i said, just on loan, not for sale.

Thanks for the offer man! Sounds like Reeves has them tho :thumb:

[onerippinturbo2]

well, if you find that the ones reeves has are used and want nos ones, just let me know!

[Reeves]

well, if you find that the ones reeves has are used and want nos ones, just let me know!

Hahaha....well, to be honest, I have a new white one, a new grey one, and a very slightly used black one with me. I didn't have time to dig in my pile for a brand new black one.

[onerippinturbo2]

well at least you had a nos grey one, the black ones are still pretty abundant.:amen:

[135sohc]

Yesterday me and another member had a discussion on a few things and this thread was the primary subject. I suggested and we both agreed that these fork inserts are a consumable item and that we (as in the collective group of interest within this thread) are not accepting the fact that these parts are going to be a wearable item, especially when doing high rpm clutchless shifting and general abuse thats going to be present when drag racing. This thread has gone round and round with debate looking for the perfect material that just doesnt exist, atleast not within the price point this group is expecting them to be.

"Bronze" fork pads exist for the Tremec T-56 and they are considered a normal replacement item on those transmissions, because they can take the abuse of a hard shift without fragmenting and ejecting like a stock plastic one. But they are still going to wear under normal usage, possibly more than stock plastic but something that we may just have to live with.

just my thoughts/observations. And does anyone know the composition of the oem pads ?

[BadAssPerformance]

Agreed. The reason I made bronze ones wasn't so they would last forever, but more so they dont get beat-to-hell on missed shifts. For all around use, plastic is great.

Hard to compare our transaxles to a T56 as ours were made for omni's, not Vipers LOL ;)

I would put money on the OEM pads being Acetal (Delrin) or PA66 (Nylon) but woudl have to do the burn test on them to narrow it down... unless I can swing some favors from the company Tech Center, then we could find out the name of the person who walked by the molding press at 2:34pm the day they were made, LOL :D

[135sohc]

Not comparing at all (because there is no comparison lol) But rather as an example since those units are 5000x more common, have a good aftermarket following and when you google 'bronze fork pads' they come up most frequently in discussion on the pros and cons of each material.

[shackwrrr]

Any word on if these are going to hit production? I really need/want some.

[BadAssPerformance]

I'm planning on it... Reeves loaned me some A555 ones, just need to get them drawn up and path written

[shackwrrr]

Awesome, my 568/523 hybrid is begging for a set with double synchro springs. I just wish someone could commercially offer crash box modification too. Oh and carbon 3-5 blocker rings aswell ;)

[stewdaddy23]

Gear shift fork insert - Chrysler Corporation synthetic resing material is "Torlon". http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5027672.html
found this on the web

[cordes]

Great find!

[BadAssPerformance]

Neat find! Not sure if that pertains to our pads, or other ones Chrysler used?

PAI is simialr to Nylon (PA) but different properties... There appears to be several grades of Torlon available too

http://www.solvaysites.com/sites/solvayplastics/EN/specialty_polymers/Spire_Ultra_Polymers/Pages/Torlon.aspx

Also, the different pads appear to be different materials, like the 3-4 pads for the A568 break brittle and the other pads squish, more ductile

[cordes]

http://www.designwithtorlon.com/

[135sohc]

Neat find! Not sure if that pertains to our pads, or other ones Chrysler used?

PAI is simialr to Nylon (PA) but different properties... There appears to be several grades of Torlon available too

http://www.solvaysites.com/sites/solvayplastics/EN/specialty_polymers/Spire_Ultra_Polymers/Pages/Torlon.aspx

Also, the different pads appear to be different materials, like the 3-4 pads for the A568 break brittle and the other pads squish, more ductile

That entire patent listing IS all about our transmissions! more specifically the 3-4 fork pads why the 91+ 3-4 shift fork pads are designed why they are.

[Force Fed Mopar]

So maybe we can buy a block of Torlon and have new pads cut/machined at a machine shop?

[black86glhs]

I have an inquiry into that as we speak. Akron is big into polymers and there are plenty of small shops around here. News at 11. :D

[AZTurbo]

Another material to check out: Vesconite. It's used as a polymer bearing material that was designed to replace oilite bushings. I've used it many times, and it machines well and is quite lubrous and very wear resistant. The amount of friction it creates/feels is very dependent on surface finish of the bearing surfaces. If the surface is rough (sanded) then it gets grabby. I know the material is available, we buy it in 25mm diameter bars sourced domestically, and it's not overly expensive the last I checked.

That torlon webpage is enough to make me boycott their product! g'dam..

[Reeves]

Any updates? Especially for A520/A555? :)

[shackwrrr]

Got a hybrid waiting for a set of these

[5DIGITS]

Has the A543 or T350 been looked at for available parts?
The 543 is the 523/568 transmission with a bell housing modification for the 3.0L and the T350 may share some common shift components.
I cannot remember which one I have been pulling shift forks from but they are 100% brass, with no pads, and work great.

On another note, I have welded pads on shift forks and have added a third pad to the 12 o'clock position (assuming the current pads are at 3 and 9 o'clock) on other projects.
This decreases side loading of the fork on the shaft and reduces shift effort and throw distance.
If it works in other applications, it may work well for the 523/568.

[135sohc]

I thought the 543 went away after 94 when the P body stopped production ? and after 94/95 the only car that got the 3.0 was the minivans and those were never released in this country with a manual transaxle.

T350/T355 (caliber/jeep twins) from what I found posted on neons.org uses a regular steel/cast iron fork and plastic inserts that are basically thermo-staked onto the fork and the entire fork gets serviced, atleast thats what Ed Peters has posted over there.
.
T850 is brass/bronze forks. heres a picture of the 1-2 fork http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=387746

Heres a 3-4 http://rage-tek.com/product.php?productid=16218&cat=1009&bestseller

[BadAssPerformance]

Update... still need to pull the trans out of the Z to see how they look after last season. Need to do this before pulling the trigger on the material. Stay tuned


Has the A543 or T350 been looked at for available parts?
The 543 is the 523/568 transmission with a bell housing modification for the 3.0L and the T350 may share some common shift components.
I cannot remember which one I have been pulling shift forks from but they are 100% brass, with no pads, and work great.

On another note, I have welded pads on shift forks and have added a third pad to the 12 o'clock position (assuming the current pads are at 3 and 9 o'clock) on other projects.
This decreases side loading of the fork on the shaft and reduces shift effort and throw distance.
If it works in other applications, it may work well for the 523/568.

Interesting, got pics?

[5DIGITS]

Interesting, got pics?
It's been a while but I know have a few forks floating around here.. when I find one I'll take a pic and post it.

[shackwrrr]

I tested an old shift fork and it takes brazing rod very well. I wanted to build up some braze then machine it down. This would have taken some expensive machine work though

[BadAssPerformance]

Bumping the thread... Thanks to Jackson bugging me and lighting a fire, these are in the works. I think I've got them all drawn up now, and another member in the community is looking to machine these up for us. Working on material and machining costing soon. I'll also dig into the trans soon to review the prototypes.

The question is, with all of the "plastic pad" comments in this thread, does anyone seriously want plastic ones? And does anyone know what the exact material for each is, or do I need to do some experiments to determine that? Since they will be machined, can do bronze or plastic...

Discuss

[135sohc]

My reservation towards the metal/bronze is how well are they going to last over the long haul. Plastic has proven that. So far bronze survives the hard impacts but still wears faster because its a softer metal than the original torlon plastic chrysler used.

256,156 miles @ removal vs 0 miles.
38818

[shackwrrr]

I like the metal idea. The way I drive, there's a good chance the trans is coming out before 200k

[Lotashelbys]

Bumping the thread... Thanks to Jackson bugging me and lighting a fire,

Damn him! lol I need to get over to the shop that I had make me a proto set out of the alloy 630 Nickle-Aluminum-Bronze and get them and get them in a trans. I wish I would have made 3 for each fork actually.

He also needs to start that 568 upgrade therad that he keeps thinking about doing.....

[BadAssPerformance]

My reservation towards the metal/bronze is how well are they going to last over the long haul. Plastic has proven that. So far bronze survives the hard impacts but still wears faster because its a softer metal than the original torlon plastic chrysler used.

256,156 miles @ removal vs 0 miles.
38818

So 256,156 miles without missing 2nd gear, awesome :clap: How did the 3-4 pads look?

Which pads are Torlon? 1-2 and 3-4 are each distinctly different materials. And then what are the other ones made out of? I would guess the 1-2 (568) material is similar to the grey and black A555/520 pads, just different color for ID


Damn him! lol I need to get over to the shop that I had make me a proto set out of the alloy 630 Nickle-Aluminum-Bronze and get them and get them in a trans. I wish I would have made 3 for each fork actually.

He also needs to start that 568 upgrade therad that he keeps thinking about doing.....

^^^ yes he does! lol.... did you do the 12-oclock 3rd pad like 5Digits mentioned?

I'd like to see how he did the protos, 2pc?

Anyone out there got connections on material? I made the bronze protos out of round and thats not the best use of material... this shtuff is $125/foot :eek: Can anyone get bar stock of Bronze 630 alloy?

[lengel]

$125 per foot! what diameter was that? mcmaster carr has 6ft of 1" dia for $272. Thats the best I have found so far.

[BadAssPerformance]

It was the largest diameter Mc(race)Master Carr sells... shtuffs spensive

[135sohc]

So 256,156 miles without missing 2nd gear, awesome :clap: How did the 3-4 pads look?

Which pads are Torlon? 1-2 and 3-4 are each distinctly different materials. And then what are the other ones made out of? I would guess the 1-2 (568) material is similar to the grey and black A555/520 pads, just different color for ID

There were a few missed shifts in there ;), like hitting 2nd instead of 4th when downshifting @ 45+ mph... The 3-4 pads were recycled and put into the 568 that is currently in the car. At the time of removal they were in the same condition as the used parts pictured. That 568 has been opened up for inspection a few times and they are still in satisfactory condition.

The 91+ 3-4 fork pads are Torlon for sure. The patent chrysler filed for them indicated Torlon by name as the material, which specific grade is not given however.

[BadAssPerformance]

I'll look into Torlon, that is a pretty specific material, so probably not too many options. Any Chrysler info on what all of the othe rpads are made out of? I've got quick tests I can do to determine if nylon or acetal, etc, but that wont determine if there are any modifiers in them... and I dont have as many favors left at the corporate tech center to get a TGA or IR spectroscopy done LOL

[135sohc]

I like the metal idea. The way I drive, there's a good chance the trans is coming out before 200k

I should say that in no way am I asking/expecting anything to last as long as those parts did, that 523 had a very gravy operating life and was treated well. I just dont want something thats not going to last 20k of normal everyday driving where you could very easily run the shifter through the pattern several dozen times a day potentially.

[Reeves]

135sohc,
How's the other place doing on the pads you sent them?

[135sohc]

Being extremely slow.

[BadAssPerformance]

Who ya got makin what? Not enough of us to do this more than once... team effort?

[135sohc]

Who ya got makin what? Not enough of us to do this more than once... team effort?

I sent the gearbox.org company a 1-2/5 568/523 pad for quoting. At the time I had not heard of anyone within the community who would actually be the mfg (Lengel) and not going to an outside person. I am all for keeping this a team effort and within the community since its not looking like this company has any interest in doing this.

[BadAssPerformance]

I sent the gearbox.org company a 1-2/5 568/523 pad for quoting. At the time I had not heard of anyone within the community who would actually be the mfg (Lengel) and not going to an outside person. I am all for keeping this a team effort and within the community since its not looking like this company has any interest in doing this.

Gotcha, thanks for the info. There is a plan in place in the community right now so let's see if we can make that happen.

[Reeves]

There is a plan in place in the community right now so let's see if we can make that happen.

That guy Jackson needs to thank me for suggesting Lengel..... LOL

Also, anyone working on the 520/555 pad which is what I'm interested in? Especially the 1-2 pad.

[Reaper1]

Oh, this is getting GOOD!! I am REALLY keeping my eye on this one!!

[135sohc]

That guy Jackson needs to thank me for suggesting Lengel..... LOL

Also, anyone working on the 520/555 pad which is what I'm interested in? Especially the 1-2 pad.

Yes.. Also just curious is there a need for the black pads on the 3-4 & 5th forks ? With them still being available for around ~$2~ each. Would anyone buy them or just continue to use the oem pads for those.

[Reeves]

Yes.. Also just curious is there a need for the black pads on the 3-4 & 5th forks ? With them still being available for around ~$2~ each. Would anyone buy them or just continue to use the oem pads for those.

I would buy both.

[black86glhs]

I tried to get someone here in Akron(which is supposed to be big into polymers) but never heard back from anyone, either. Rather Lengel make the $$$$ than some company anyway. I am interested in the 1-2 shift pads, too.

[BadAssPerformance]

Looking at the all of the following...

555/520 1-2 & 3-4 (Grey Black)
90 568/523 3-4 (natural)
91+ 568/523 1-2 & 3-4 (natural wide and brown tie fighter)

I will have the sketches to Lengel when I get back to town...

I will test some of the pads to determine current material

[Reeves]

Looking at the all of the following...

555/520 1-2 & 3-4 (Grey Black)
90 568/523 3-4 (natural)
91+ 568/523 1-2 & 3-4 (natural wide and brown tie fighter)

I will have the sketches to Lengel when I get back to town...

I will test some of the pads to determine current material

Excellent! (as long as it doesn't turn into your tubular header project.....)









LOL....jk.

[Ondonti]

Both replacements to keep cars on the road AND a good performance lower miles product seem like a good idea. Keeping cars on the road is a good thing but some of us like smashing things.

[BadAssPerformance]

Excellent! (as long as it doesn't turn into your tubular header project.....)

LOL....jk.

LOL... funny guy :p

OK, looks like we have a bunch of pads on the list, and the 2 NS1 pads would be the priority... Craig, do you have part numbers for the two missing them in this list? Also, do you have an NOS 90 3-4, the ones I have are slightly abused so dims are off

4XXXXXX White A525?
4269038 Grey 1-2 A520/555 (NS1)
4295519 Black 3-4-5 A520/555
4471343 White Wide 1-2-5 A523/568 (NS1)
4XXXXXX White 3-4 A523/568 1990 only
4543715 Brown "H" 3-4 A523/568 91+

---------- Post added at 10:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 PM ----------

Pricy, but Torlon is available...

http://www.mcmaster.com/#torlon/=h3yvp4

Still gotta determine what the other pads are made of, prolly do that tomorrow

[135sohc]

The 1990 3-4 is 4471342, its also NS1 and I dont have any of them. Cliff R might, I'll send him an email and ask.

2514621 is what I get when looking in the pre 87 fiche for the 525/465/460. depending upon the year theres alot of variation in where its used. never seen one of them in person to know what exactly is different about it.

[BadAssPerformance]

OK, cool. The white (natural) one Reeves loaned out I thought was the 90, but he said its a 525... makes sense looking at the used 90 pads I have The 525 natural one is same as a black one except ~1mm less width.

Thinking of it from the start... first the Earth cooled, then the dinosaurs roamed the planet.... LOL... then the 460/465/525 used the natural pad (natural material is cheapest) they realized they needed more material thickness and upped the width 1mm and made those black (next cheapest color) then the 520 and 555 needed a stronger 1-2 fork so they got gray pads which have a wider chanel for the thicker 1-2 fork but the same overal width... Then with the 523/568 they went back to natural as the wider 1-2 pad and offset mount 3-4 couldn't be confused with the others because they were different... then came the 91+ where they made the fork thicker and less pad so needed Torlon for strength...

[135sohc]

Sounds about right... lol.

It is enough to make your head hurt reading through the parts fiche and all the minute running changes and then deciphering what part# corresponds to what assembly# ect... to get the right part# for the proper pad.

[BadAssPerformance]

Yeah, I bet...

[BadAssPerformance]

OK... just spent way too much time in th epart sbook LOL.. the best I can make of it is as follows:

A460
4295519 Black 1-2 (HD) 3-4
2514621 Natural/White (LD) 3-4

A465/A525 LD (thru 87)
4295519 Black 1-2
2514621 Natural/White 3-4, 5

A525 HD (thru 87)
4295519 Black 1-2, 3-4, 5

A520/A555 (early 1987)
4295519 Black 1-2, 3-4, 5

A520/A555 (late 1987 + 1988-89) A525 (88-90)
4269038 Grey 1-2 (NS1)
4295519 Black 3-4, 5

A523/543/568 (early 1990)
4471343 Natural/White Wide 1-2, 5 (NS1)
4471342 Natural/White 3-4 A523/568 (1990 only!) (NS1)

A523/543/568 (late 1990 + 1991+)
4471343 Natural/White Wide 1-2, 5 (NS1)
4543715 Brown "H" 3-4

[135sohc]

Looks about right. I think on the really early stuff they used the white pads on all positions (early fsm I have here hints at it) but thats splitting hairs for this purpose of breakdown.

[black86glhs]

I take it you guys are planning on making them all out of Torlon? I really don't think they need to be different colors. Should be able to tell if they fit or not by the size or the design. Could just write on them with a sharpie to mark the shift fork location.

[135sohc]

Just for conversation/discussion sake within this thread there being referred to by color, (I think?)

Plastic will probably be too cost prohibitive, buying it and then cutting most of it away to make the part will make lots of very expensive waste.

[BadAssPerformance]

Looks about right. I think on the really early stuff they used the white pads on all positions (early fsm I have here hints at it) but thats splitting hairs for this purpose of breakdown.

Due to the mid year and trans modle differences, IIR the FSM or 2.2L book said when you tear into it to "match color and size accordingly" LOL...


I take it you guys are planning on making them all out of Torlon? I really don't think they need to be different colors. Should be able to tell if they fit or not by the size or the design. Could just write on them with a sharpie to mark the shift fork location.


Just for conversation/discussion sake within this thread there being referred to by color, (I think?)

Plastic will probably be too cost prohibitive, buying it and then cutting most of it away to make the part will make lots of very expensive waste.

I'll figure out what the others are made of... Torlon cost more than bronze! :eek:

Yeah, part number, color and shape ID work...

2514621 Natural/White narrow
4295519 Black
4269038 Grey (NS1)
4471343 Natural/White Wide (NS1)
4471342 Natural/White Regular width, offset notch (NS1)
4543715 Brown "H"

[Aries_Turbo]

it would be nice to get the resin and cast new torlon ones. at the same time make bronze ones for durability for those that beat the gearbox hard.

[bakes]

it would be nice to get the resin and cast new torlon ones. at the same time make bronze ones for durability for those that beat the gearbox hard.

thats what i was think make a injection mold and pop them out no waste or if there is it goes back into the supply

[BadAssPerformance]

it would be nice to get the resin and cast new torlon ones. at the same time make bronze ones for durability for those that beat the gearbox hard.


thats what i was think make a injection mold and pop them out no waste or if there is it goes back into the supply

For the quantities we're talking about machining makes more sense than molding... I've looked into it

[Ondonti]

Thinking about the machining, I wouldn't want to spend more on work then on the base material. Spending a lot to make something sub par seems wasteful of resources in the long run. What is the current thought on material cost vs workmanship costs?

[BadAssPerformance]

Thinking about the machining, I wouldn't want to spend more on work then on the base material. Spending a lot to make something sub par seems wasteful of resources in the long run. What is the current thought on material cost vs workmanship costs?

You must have missed where several think that the original materials are the best ones to use... I disagree witth this and think bronze works great, but if folks want plastic, because these will be machined, once the tool path is written, various materials can be cut

Material Update...

Tested the following with the following results (95% confident in these):

4295519 Black ------------------------- PA66
4471343 Natural/White Wide (NS1) ------ PA6

I do not think there are any heavy fillers (like glass) in either one but hard to tell if anything else with a basic method I use.

There are some slight differences betwen PA66 and PA6 and various reasons why each was chosen. There are also 100's of different brands, formulatrions, and variations of each. Unless we can find out the exact material, it probably wouldn;t make sense to use anything exotic and just get a machineable grade of PA66... thoughts?

Also, anyone got any connections at Mopar HQ in MI? If these parts are all going to go NS1 and we can somehow get in contact with the molder and/or get a hold of the molds, I have a local shop that can run them cheap for us.

[black86glhs]

I'll take bronze. I just want some that work. If you can make them for all the 555 pads, bronze is just fine with me.

[Ondonti]

I don't mind people having their own opinion about what they think works well but it makes no sense to put a bunch of effort into something and purposely choose to use the "cheaper" material because it might work. We already polish enough turds with even keeping these cars around.
Machining does make it easy. You can get some made out of Fimo and then the rest out of good stuff.

[black86glhs]

The sad part is that injection molding is not hard to do. A lab setup would be perfect or a small testing extruder would be nice to get a hold of.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

[Ondonti]

Better beat china to the molds. Scrap = $

[shackwrrr]

Bronze has been used in transmissions since transmissions have been around. Its also extensively used in high performance transmissions in every sport out there. Don't know what the big deal about it is in our transmissions.

[135sohc]

Bronze has been used in transmissions since transmissions have been around. Its also extensively used in high performance transmissions in every sport out there. Don't know what the big deal about it is in our transmissions.

The 'big deal' is the lifespan of said parts is a big unknown. Everywhere I have been reading about bronze fork pads there is the same divided opinion as here with the real world results showing the bronze does not last anywhere near as long as the oe plastic for a part being used for a vehicle that is not being driven exclusivly 1/4 mile at a time.


Excerpt on the topic:

http://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-transmission/1289535-t56-shift-fork-pads-bronze-stock-nylon.html

Here's my view on this subject.
I have built well over 1000 T56s myself (no exaggeration) in the last 6 years. My first impression was that every T56 needed the bronze pads. I used to believe in them, but not so much now.
First, make a note of this.. The stock fork pads ere engineered to be able to glide in the groove in the sleeve. They are composed of a synthetic nylon, not just a generic "plastic". The sleeves on all synchro assemblies are constantly turning any time the car is running. I would say that 80-90% of the T56s that I've rebuilt have 75k-125k miles and have never been opened up. Sure I have found broken and brittle pads. A small percentage of these T56s have had the pads destroyed to the point that they have fallen out of place, causing damage to the shift fork. This is after a LOT of miles as well as years and years of use and abuse, of course. However, the majority (60-65%) of the T56s that I've opened up had minimal to average wear on the fork pads.
Bronze fork pads are completely different, as its a soft metal. A soft metal, which rides in a groove in the sleeve, which is hardened steel. It does not have the ability to glide and resist wear, since its a soft metal riding on a hard metal. Instead, the sleeve wears into the pad much quicker than it would with the stock pads. Granted, the bronze is much more solid than the nylon, its not really doing much good.
I've gone back through three different T56s that had bronze pads, and found that the side walls were worn through anywhere from 30-60%. One of these trannys only had 5000 miles since the initial rebuild & the pads were worn 50% through. This causes there to be extra play between the fork and slider, which would make the shifts a little sloppy. I will post pics of them as soon as I get a chance. I'll do my best to bring my camera to the shop Monday and get them posted Monday night.
So, my final conclusion is that there are pros and cons with both types of fork pads, so it's not really worth spending the ~70 bucks on the bronze ones. Plus I really don't like the idea that there is more play in the trans with the bronze pads, so that is why I don't recommend them. However, I do keep them in stock for anyone who requests them.

Any time I run into things like this, I do my best to design something better. So, it looks like I have yet another project in the works. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:ls1tech.com/get/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_stretch.gif
I'm thinking a superior nylon-type material (non-metal), thats much better than the stock pads. Looks like I have some homework to do! Luckily I have access to 4 unique top-notch machine shops, so I do all the engineering, and have them do the production. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:ls1tech.com/get/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_wink.gif

-Jason

If a part can survive 6x down the track but not 6k of real world driving where you could very well be shifting dozens of times a day it is of no better a replacement than the oem plastic. I know I am in the very minority opinion but that is my criteria for whether or not it is something I am ready to open my wallet and drop some serious $$$ on getting a bunch of these for myself and some shelf stock for whoever else comes along asking me about rebuild/freshening up a transmission for them. I have turned away people because of a lack of fork pads, believe me I want these BAD but I dont want to be the guinea pig or put my name and reputation on something I have built and have it fail on someone at the worst opportune moment. Not to mention our transmissions are not really designed to be taken apart and put back together more than a few times. Dimensions get worn from repeatedly scraping and resealing surfaces, bolt threads get worn and loose ect.

[lengel]

I read that exact thread about a week ago on the ls1 forum. My main question is what alloy of bronze was being used. I am not saying yay or nay on these yet. But to really find out if they are going to last, they need to be tested on a trans thats going to see alot of miles, but at the same time we dont want it to take 5 years to test these things. Any suggestions

Adam

[Aries_Turbo]

if menegon still was doing his courier job, he'd be a perfect candidate to test.... :)

i only put on 30k a year on a vehicle typically and i switch up vehicles all the time.

Brian

[Pat]

I read that exact thread about a week ago on the ls1 forum. My main question is what alloy of bronze was being used. I am not saying yay or nay on these yet. But to really find out if they are going to last, they need to be tested on a trans thats going to see alot of miles, but at the same time we dont want it to take 5 years to test these things. Any suggestions

Adam

Don't try to sell them as OEM style replacement parts with an expectation that they will have OEM style longevity. Sell them as a race car part with the expectation that they may have to be inspected/replaced periodically.

I don't see a need to invest the time, effort and cost in trying to develop a part that will last 200k miles when so few (and I mean can probably count on one hand) potential buyers are building cars to drive that many miles...cater to the buying market, which are for the most part the hobbiest and race car builders.

Pat

[shackwrrr]

I understand the bronze is softer than the sleeve but the plastic is too. You could try polishing the groove in the sleeve.

And what about the bronze that valve seats and guides are made from, its a lot harder than just bronze.

If the srt4 3-4 fork doesn't break first how many miles does it last, its bronze.

[lengel]

Don't try to sell them as OEM style replacement parts with an expectation that they will have OEM style longevity. Sell them as a race car part with the expectation that they may have to be inspected/replaced periodically.

I don't see a need to invest the time, effort and cost in trying to develop a part that will last 200k miles when so few (and I mean can probably count on one hand) potential buyers are building cars to drive that many miles...cater to the buying market, which are for the most part the hobbiest and race car builders.

Pat

Very well said!

[Pat]

Very well said!

...and count me on the list of buyers. I'll be building one or two 568's in the very near future and will certainly be looking for fork pads.

[BadAssPerformance]

The 'big deal' is the lifespan of said parts is a big unknown. Everywhere I have been reading about bronze fork pads there is the same divided opinion as here with the real world results showing the bronze does not last anywhere near as long as the oe plastic for a part being used for a vehicle that is not being driven exclusivly 1/4 mile at a time.

I would expect that most who "upgrade" to Bronze are not using their cars as basic transportation... Also, everyone with an LS1 or T56 *thinks* they are a race car driver... also, as Adam asked, what grade of bronze did they use?


Excerpt on the topic:

http://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-tra...ock-nylon.html

Here's my view on this subject.
I have built well over 1000 T56s myself (no exaggeration) in the last 6 years. My first impression was that every T56 needed the bronze pads. I used to believe in them, but not so much now.

Wow, that many in his town need rebuilds.. thats 3-4 a week!?



First, make a note of this.. The stock fork pads ere engineered to be able to glide in the groove in the sleeve. They are composed of a synthetic nylon, not just a generic "plastic".

First off, how can nylon "glide in a groove" better than metal? Main and rod bearings are metal... Does that mean the issue is pad lubrication more than material and *maybe* a plastic pad works better dry?

"Nylon" is a DuPont branded trade name for PA (Poly Amide) materials.. there are PA6, PA66, PA12, PA6/12, and hundreds of brands and versions of each with additives, friction modifiers, etc.



The sleeves on all synchro assemblies are constantly turning any time the car is running. I would say that 80-90% of the T56s that I've rebuilt have 75k-125k miles and have never been opened up. Sure I have found broken and brittle pads. A small percentage of these T56s have had the pads destroyed to the point that they have fallen out of place, causing damage to the shift fork. This is after a LOT of miles as well as years and years of use and abuse, of course. However, the majority (60-65%) of the T56s that I've opened up had minimal to average wear on the fork pads.

OK, so 40/60 whether the driver (A) knew how to drive and/or (B) raced the car...




Bronze fork pads are completely different, as its a soft metal. A soft metal, which rides in a groove in the sleeve, which is hardened steel. It does not have the ability to glide and resist wear, since its a soft metal riding on a hard metal. Instead, the sleeve wears into the pad much quicker than it would with the stock pads.

Wear in a bearing application is calculated by a combination of coefficient of friction, force applied, and cycles (n) Unless shifting, the sides of the pads should see minimal force, so the otehr two components do not matter as much...


Granted, the bronze is much more solid than the nylon, its not really doing much good.
I've gone back through three different T56s that had bronze pads, and found that the side walls were worn through anywhere from 30-60%. One of these trannys only had 5000 miles since the initial rebuild & the pads were worn 50% through. This causes there to be extra play between the fork and slider, which would make the shifts a little sloppy. I will post pics of them as soon as I get a chance. I'll do my best to bring my camera to the shop Monday and get them posted Monday night.
So, my final conclusion is that there are pros and cons with both types of fork pads, so it's not really worth spending the ~70 bucks on the bronze ones. Plus I really don't like the idea that there is more play in the trans with the bronze pads, so that is why I don't recommend them. However, I do keep them in stock for anyone who requests them.

Any time I run into things like this, I do my best to design something better. So, it looks like I have yet another project in the works.
I'm thinking a superior nylon-type material (non-metal), thats much better than the stock pads. Looks like I have some homework to do! Luckily I have access to 4 unique top-notch machine shops, so I do all the engineering, and have them do the production.

-Jason

I'm guesing re-opening a trans in 5k miles the car was not a typical daily driver

Why not investigate the root cause, like why the nylon lives longer due to lack of sufficient lubrication?


If a part can survive 6x down the track but not 6k of real world driving where you could very well be shifting dozens of times a day it is of no better a replacement than the oem plastic.

Different applications for different needs... daily driver, use whatever you want, I would suspect either one to last well as long as they are sufficiently lubricated. Ever see a stock shift fork pad burned up cus the fluid was low?


I know I am in the very minority opinion but that is my criteria for whether or not it is something I am ready to open my wallet and drop some serious $$$ on getting a bunch of these for myself and some shelf stock for whoever else comes along asking me about rebuild/freshening up a transmission for them. I have turned away people because of a lack of fork pads, believe me I want these BAD but I dont want to be the guinea pig or put my name and reputation on something I have built and have it fail on someone at the worst opportune moment.
Not to mention our transmissions are not really designed to be taken apart and put back together more than a few times. Dimensions get worn from repeatedly scraping and resealing surfaces, bolt threads get worn and loose ect.

What? never had any of those problems with many openings... heck, they were designed to be servicable in the car even!


I read that exact thread about a week ago on the ls1 forum. My main question is what alloy of bronze was being used. I am not saying yay or nay on these yet. But to really find out if they are going to last, they need to be tested on a trans thats going to see alot of miles, but at the same time we dont want it to take 5 years to test these things. Any suggestions

Adam

Yeppers... what kind of bronze is key (just like what kind of nylon the stock pads are is key) as the original brass smashed with a couple missed shifts but the bronze lasted MUCH better... BTW, when I picked the bronze I looked a lot at the materials and the original brass I used has a similar strength to PA66, meaning if you miss a couple shifts with plastic, it's toast too. The Bronze I selected (which I was delighted to find that Jackson's buddy recomended the same material!) is MUCH harder and can deal with the abuse better, this is proven in my trans.


Don't try to sell them as OEM style replacement parts with an expectation that they will have OEM style longevity. Sell them as a race car part with the expectation that they may have to be inspected/replaced periodically.

I don't see a need to invest the time, effort and cost in trying to develop a part that will last 200k miles when so few (and I mean can probably count on one hand) potential buyers are building cars to drive that many miles...cater to the buying market, which are for the most part the hobbiest and race car builders.

Pat

Well said :clap: Enough racers like bronze... thats in the works. :thumb:

Anyone who wants plastic... there are some options, but unless we want to take a SAWG on the grade of PA material, we need do one of the following:

1) Figure out the exact materials (yes, at least 3 have been used) and those can be machined as well
2) figure out who made them and get them to make a batch
3) figure out who made them and get them to unload the molds and give us the material and I'll get the local shop to make a batch


ETA:

BTW, if anyone has a desire for pads and too much free time, its easy to test the 200k miles, just need a spare slider and fork and fixture designed to hold he fork while spinning the slider with an electric motor (drill?) ... Use rpm and cycle count to represent 200k miles and apply *almost* zero side load to the fork for consistancy, no need for excessive side load if this is not a race application.... needs to be poorly lubricated like in the trans, etc..

[Reaper1]

I was actually about to suggest a test rig! LOL

For me, looking at this from the perspective that I do drive the car on the street often, and I like to road race and auto-cross, this is a LOT more shift cycles than drag racing. Now, true, you do not shift the same in road racing as you do drag racing, BUT, there is downshifting that occurs.

For the rest rig I'd say we could do it a few different ways.

The most important thing is to make sure that the force applied to the fork and slider are at the maximum of what would be considered "acceptable". To measure that using a scale and making it so it read the force applied to the fork would be the way to go, then simply duplicate that on the rig.

We also need to know what RPM to spin the rig at. I'd say to figure that out based on the upper limit of what most people shift at. I think Warren Stramer is around 8400rpm IIRC. So, make sure it spins 9000 just to be on the safe side. (or whatever would be equivalent to 9000 rpm at the crank).

For the lubrication I'd use Red Line MTL, or Shock Proof. That seems to be a good fluid and is widely used. Use a pump and a sump and simply squirt it, or spray it on the assembly during operation. The oil needs to be at operating temp, so it needs to be heated somehow and monitored. (this will require the rig be at least semi-enclosed to prevent a huge mess)

The actual testing could be done a few ways. One way would be to run it through a set amount of cycles (shifts), the measure the wear and relate that to millage.

Another would be to apply the force constantly (keeping an eye on heat build-up) of the parts. We could then apply a set "maximum" amount of time that force would normally be applied to the part and figure out the wear vs. time which could also give us service cycles. It also gives us a test for the worst case scenario of a missadjusted cable, shifter, or a driver who doesn't know stick very well to see what kind of abuse it will actually take.

We could also take a look at different designs while we are at it and see if we can improve on the stock style. Maybe a larger contact area to reduce the amount of localized stress? Maybe a lubrication groove? What about the 3rd pad modification? I see a LOT of potential here IF we can get this together. I really wish I had the money, time, and the tools because I think it would be a fun project! :)

[BadAssPerformance]

I was actually about to suggest a test rig! LOL

great minds, lOL...


For me, looking at this from the perspective that I do drive the car on the street often, and I like to road race and auto-cross, this is a LOT more shift cycles than drag racing. Now, true, you do not shift the same in road racing as you do drag racing, BUT, there is downshifting that occurs.

The severe damage occurs during drag, road course, auto X, or a trip to the grocery story whenever a shift is missed. I think for severe impact like a missed (read: locked out so force applied to fork) shift we can all agree that PA pads will not take the abuse as a bronze pad, if anyone questions this, please post your analysis of why a lower MPa material will take more force

This test would be more of a "long term wear" test, so force is not as important and should be held constant rather than varied so not to add more error test-to-test


For the rest rig I'd say we could do it a few different ways.

The most important thing is to make sure that the force applied to the fork and slider are at the maximum of what would be considered "acceptable". To measure that using a scale and making it so it read the force applied to the fork would be the way to go, then simply duplicate that on the rig.

Yep, would just have to measure force to slide the slider over the syncro & gear


We also need to know what RPM to spin the rig at. I'd say to figure that out based on the upper limit of what most people shift at. I think Warren Stramer is around 8400rpm IIRC. So, make sure it spins 9000 just to be on the safe side. (or whatever would be equivalent to 9000 rpm at the crank).

Stramers got an automagic... otherwise we would already have all this solved, LOL! ;) DJ's probably 8500? For a long term durability test, whatever 45mph wheel speed equates to, back galculated to the intermediate shaft?


For the lubrication I'd use Red Line MTL, or Shock Proof. That seems to be a good fluid and is widely used.

Fluid is a whole other variable... Maybe Plastic should use factory fill ATF and Bronze use MTL? LOL... just kidding, really should do multiple, but I would start with MTL


Use a pump and a sump and simply squirt it, or spray it on the assembly during operation. The oil needs to be at operating temp, so it needs to be heated somehow and monitored. (this will require the rig be at least semi-enclosed to prevent a huge mess)

I've never look too close, are the pads submerged or above the oil level? Guessing above which the spray idea works ok to simulate oil slosh, but if submerged, could just have it in a pool of fluid... the fiqture is starting to sound like a spaer trans, LOL


The actual testing could be done a few ways. One way would be to run it through a set amount of cycles (shifts), the measure the wear and relate that to millage.

Could, but if we are talking ong term wear, contant force and cycles are all that is needed and simple so less to F up beteen samples


Another would be to apply the force constantly (keeping an eye on heat build-up) of the parts. We could then apply a set "maximum" amount of time that force would normally be applied to the part and figure out the wear vs. time which could also give us service cycles. It also gives us a test for the worst case scenario of a missadjusted cable, shifter, or a driver who doesn't know stick very well to see what kind of abuse it will actually take.

Yep... ever see a spinning disk wear test? Most plastics that are designed for earing material are evaluated thisway... force + n cycles, then measure wear


We could also take a look at different designs while we are at it and see if we can improve on the stock style. Maybe a larger contact area to reduce the amount of localized stress? Maybe a lubrication groove? What about the 3rd pad modification? I see a LOT of potential here IF we can get this together. I really wish I had the money, time, and the tools because I think it would be a fun project! :)

I'm sure the 3rd pad works well... the fact the forks are loose ont he rails is one way that wold help...

yeah, lots of pad shape design opportunity here, but I'm not sure if it woudl be worth it LOL

[Reaper1]

The pads are not submerged. They are splash fed.

Oh, I forget to mention that I have a transmission right now that has failed fork pads on EVERY fork due to the wrong fluid being used! I got this transmission in a parts car MANY years ago and was told that it drove. I never did try to drive it to verify this. Anyway, long story short it looks like 90W gear oil was used and it FRIED every single fork pad to the point that when it is in gear it is VERY hard to turn the transmission over. In neutral it's not nearly as bad. This is in a 1990 A543 BTW.

[135sohc]

the fact the forks are loose ont he rails is one way that wold help...


because of your gorilla shifting hands maybe... comes back to how you drive it :D

mine are not loose at all. nor are any of the others I have come across. Third pad is an idea I am modifying a junk set of forks to accomodate/test.

[Lotashelbys]

Third pad is an idea I am modifying a junk set of forks to accomodate/test.
I really liked the idea of the 12 oclock pad as well. I modified a few 1-2 and 3-4 forks the other night to install the third pad. Easy to do with a file. I want to throw them in a trans in my DD here soon to "test" the idea out. Holding it in your hand with a slider up against it is WAY more stable than just the factory 2. I sent JT A pic of the 1-2 fork with the third pad installed maybe he can post it........

[Ondonti]

5,000 miles vs 200,000 miles is not really valid. I have never put 200k miles on anything, or possibly in my life total, but I had no problem putting 5k miles on a car that I drove about 100 times. 50-100 mile round trips add up fast. Throw in 50 passes and if you don't miss a shift you won't need a new pad if your pad doesn't wear itself out doing basic shifts.

Lighter clutch and flat shift electronics would help more with missed shifts (solving the problem) then getting stronger parts to prevent the consequences of an unaddressed problem.

What I see is nothing about how long a properly shifted oem pad would last. I would like to get 20-30k out of a rebuild barring catastrophic failure.
Seems like the trial is over before anything was shown.

Also, to say that the only people who want functional shifter pads are drag racers is completely invalid. It is true that road/drag racers are more likely to spend money on a product that someone works their butt off to make.
I think I can count on my hands the number of 5 speeds that are beat up on a regular basis to a stress level that validates asking for a high performance product. Sad to say but everyone else would be rocking something they never take advantage of, or would fall into the "I have a T56 so I am a race car driver who needs a race transmission" mentality. Its the same exact thing you just made fun of. The same people are probably also more likely to suffer failures without obtaining results.
Even one of those 5 speeds brags that its a street car that is regularly street driven. Sounds like he needs to invest in 10 future rebuilds.

Or if a bronze material can be found that can function very well for 30k in a fun car and 50k+ in a boring longhaul few shifts kinda car then it sounds like an agreeable solution that saves the life of many cars. I don't really know what a reasonable amount of mileage is to decide this but 5,000 and 200,000 are obviously numbers people are using to sway opinion.

[DodgeZdad]

I understand the bronze is softer than the sleeve but the plastic is too. You could try polishing the groove in the sleeve.

And what about the bronze that valve seats and guides are made from, its a lot harder than just bronze.

If the srt4 3-4 fork doesn't break first how many miles does it last, its bronze.

My 850 3/4 shifting fork with over 100,000 miles and hundreds of WOT shifting had very little wear. The third gear snycro pad cracked and was chewed up in the gears.

[Shadow]

Might have missed it, but did anyone post the original part #'s of the original pads from Chrysler and are they still available? I really need to open up my trans and see what's going on in there. No problems yet, but if I'm on the verge of something going, I'd like to nip it in the but before it nips me........

[135sohc]

5,000 miles vs 200,000 miles is not really valid. I have never put 200k miles on anything, or possibly in my life total, but I had no problem putting 5k miles on a car that I drove about 100 times. 50-100 mile round trips add up fast. Throw in 50 passes and if you don't miss a shift you won't need a new pad if your pad doesn't wear itself out doing basic shifts.

Lighter clutch and flat shift electronics would help more with missed shifts (solving the problem) then getting stronger parts to prevent the consequences of an unaddressed problem.

What I see is nothing about how long a properly shifted oem pad would last. I would like to get 20-30k out of a rebuild barring catastrophic failure.
Seems like the trial is over before anything was shown.

Also, to say that the only people who want functional shifter pads are drag racers is completely invalid. It is true that road/drag racers are more likely to spend money on a product that someone works their butt off to make.
I think I can count on my hands the number of 5 speeds that are beat up on a regular basis to a stress level that validates asking for a high performance product. Sad to say but everyone else would be rocking something they never take advantage of, or would fall into the "I have a T56 so I am a race car driver who needs a race transmission" mentality. Its the same exact thing you just made fun of. The same people are probably also more likely to suffer failures without obtaining results.
Even one of those 5 speeds brags that its a street car that is regularly street driven. Sounds like he needs to invest in 10 future rebuilds.

Or if a bronze material can be found that can function very well for 30k in a fun car and 50k+ in a boring longhaul few shifts kinda car then it sounds like an agreeable solution that saves the life of many cars. I don't really know what a reasonable amount of mileage is to decide this but 5,000 and 200,000 are obviously numbers people are using to sway opinion.

Amen... Read my mind and save me the typing... :hail:

NOWHERE have I stated that I expect/want something to last 200k+ but I darn well want it to last a reasonable amount of time for the price and amount of effort required to replace it. Is that too much to ask ??? :confused2:


My 850 3/4 shifting fork with over 100,000 miles and hundreds of WOT shifting had very little wear. The third gear snycro pad cracked and was chewed up in the gears.

I asked the question elsewhere and nobody seems to know what the alloy of brass/bronze they used. Because whatever it is would probably be the ideal material to use for these pads.



Might have missed it, but did anyone post the original part #'s of the original pads from Chrysler and are they still available? I really need to open up my trans and see what's going on in there. No problems yet, but if I'm on the verge of something going, I'd like to nip it in the but before it nips me........

They were posted a few pages back.

[Shadow]

Believe it or not, I actually read the first 4-5 pages before I asked that! lol Of course, I did it backwards as all I needed do was flip back one page to 10 where it was nicely layed out. :mad::lol:

[BadAssPerformance]

because of your gorilla shifting hands maybe... comes back to how you drive it :D


NOWHERE have I stated that I expect/want something to last 200k+ but I darn well want it to last a reasonable amount of time for the price and amount of effort required to replace it. Is that too much to ask ??? :confused2:

Definitely how you drive it... Like I said, destroyed pads in 2 miss shifts, or 200k miles and still OK.... for a lightly shifted, well treated, well maintained trans that plastic pads lived for 200k in, I bet the pads could be mae from just about any material and last 200k.


mine are not loose at all. nor are any of the others I have come across. Third pad is an idea I am modifying a junk set of forks to accomodate/test.

"loose" is a relative term. my forks were not visibly loose at first, and I didn't notice they were until I saw the angular wear on the pads.... I them pressed on the fork and noticed the oil between the form and rail squish out.. maybe ~.001 gap was there? not much at all.. it pivots on the roll pin, but when you take the .001 from there and magnify it over eh length of the fork, it increases to cause the angular wear.


I really liked the idea of the 12 oclock pad as well. I modified a few 1-2 and 3-4 forks the other night to install the third pad. Easy to do with a file. I want to throw them in a trans in my DD here soon to "test" the idea out. Holding it in your hand with a slider up against it is WAY more stable than just the factory 2. I sent JT A pic of the 1-2 fork with the third pad installed maybe he can post it........

Your prototype pic is attached :thumb:


I asked the question elsewhere and nobody seems to know what the alloy of brass/bronze they used. Because whatever it is would probably be the ideal material to use for these pads.

I thought Plastic was the ideal material to use? ;)

Anyone got any pics of T850 bronze fork pads?

[135sohc]

I thought Plastic was the ideal material to use? ;)

Well it works, sort of... cant argue with that :eyebrows:

Anyways on just a another bit of information since this topic is here to stay.
Awhile back (december 2010) before I knew the differences in the 90 vs 91+ 3-4 fork & pads when I did my first transmission that is currently in the car now. I threw in a set of the 'H' shaped pads to replace the junk smashed up 90 only unique 3-4 pads. Those pads fell off and while I noticed something was off I continued driving the car probably another 500 miles until I opened it up. Probably maybe 700 miles total without the 3-4 pads and just the fork directly on the slider ring/collar. Fair amount of wear on the fork, within a few thousand miles of normal rowing gears it would have been eaten away better than 50% that is how soft the forks are. I guess there just a cast steel with very little hardness. Especially if just using a file could notch them out.

How much vertical clearence is between the synchronizer collar/ring and the fork when everything is installed ? Gravity isnt going to work with us and if theres alot of room for it to 'fall down' between the inner rib on the fork and the collar ??? Not sure if thats an issue or if anyone else thought about it and already checked it out and found it to be a non issue.

http://www.performanceautowerks.com/catalog/popup_image.php?pID=1600 1-2
http://www.performanceautowerks.com/catalog/popup_image.php?pID=1601 3-4

[Force Fed Mopar]

What would be wrong with machining them out of tool steel or something?

[Lotashelbys]

I guess there just a cast steel with very little hardness. Especially if just using a file could notch them out.

How much vertical clearence is between the synchronizer collar/ring and the fork when everything is installed ? Gravity isnt going to work with us and if theres alot of room for it to 'fall down' between the inner rib on the fork and the collar ??? Not sure if thats an issue or if anyone else thought about it and already checked it out and found it to be a non issue.


Im pretty sure the 1-2 and 3-4 forks are cast iron. The 5th gear fork is a hardened steel as the file would not touch it and they look totally different than the 1-2 3-4s.

If you are referring to the 12 oclock pad falling off I dont think it can. The slider captures it and it could only fall "down" a few thousands the way it looked to me the other night when I was playing with the 3rd pads on the fork....

[135sohc]

What would be wrong with machining them out of tool steel or something?

If the rockwell hardness of the slider rings could be identified and then create a piece that is just softer than that it would probably work. only other thing being it should be a good fit on the fork so its not able to rattle around and wear away the fork underneath it from the movement.

[Force Fed Mopar]

If the rockwell hardness of the slider rings could be identified and then create a piece that is just softer than that it would probably work. only other thing being it should be a good fit on the fork so its not able to rattle around and wear away the fork underneath it from the movement.

Seems like a better alternative to me :) Could have the sliding surfaces polished same as the slider groove. Or make them slightly small and have them coated in nylon or something. How hard would it be to determine the hardness of the sliders?

[BadAssPerformance]

Im pretty sure the 1-2 and 3-4 forks are cast iron.

Yep, cast iron.. this is one reason why they need pads, cast wears too easy

[BadAssPerformance]

Here's soem pics of the prototypes that were in the car last season Witht he abuse they went thru, i think they are holding up fine. Going to put them back in and runt hem again this year.

39468394693947039471394723947339474394753947639477 3947839479

[Reaper1]

With the way that groove is worn in there it really does look like a 3rd pad to stabilize the fork would go a long way in helping shift quality, effort, and parts longevity.

[135sohc]

What is the material ?

[BadAssPerformance]

With the way that groove is worn in there it really does look like a 3rd pad to stabilize the fork would go a long way in helping shift quality, effort, and parts longevity.

The forks float on the rails (manufacturing tolerances) and pivot on the roll pin (not sure if the 555/520 bolt style has this problem as the botl wedges in there) to allow it to do that. Once the groove is worn, due to the fork angulating, it stays consistant, as these look the same as the last inspection.


What is the material ?

Bronze 630 alloy... I selected this cuz after the brass (softer than nylon) was squishes to crap, it was the strongest (psi) bronze I could find ... amazingly enough, Jackson's machinist buddy said he made fork pads out of it before, so maybe its the goods?

[135sohc]

so maybe its the goods?

I hope so.

I just hate the way they designed the entire 3-4 shift fork/synchronizer/reverse idler and getting stuck with that underspec'ed fork as a result. Should have just spent the extra $5 and made these transmissions a damn 5 speed from the start and put the reverse between 4 & 5 so theres no shift fork in the way and not have to whittle the end down to that tiny unsupported tip. Looked on mcmaster-carr the other night for a bolt with an unthreaded 'pilot' tip sort of like how the 520/555 uses to hold the shift forks assembled and to drill/ream/tap the 523/568 to use some threaded fasteners vs roll pins. Those roll pins kinda scare me. They loosen up with repeated removal/installation and if one decided to fall out into your spinning gearset its game over.

[Reeves]

I added the 3rd pad in the 12 o'clock position on my A555 on the 1-2 selector and the 3-4 selector. So far, I'd say it's a win. Simple to do with a file and it does take out some rock. Have about 120 street miles on it so far and about 5 passes on the track with no misshifts to speak of yet. That combined with new shifter cables from PushPull.com seems to have def helped shift quality.

[Lotashelbys]

I added the 3rd pad in the 12 o'clock position on my A555 on the 1-2 selector and the 3-4 selector. So far, I'd say it's a win. Simple to do with a file and it does take out some rock. Have about 120 street miles on it so far and about 5 passes on the track with no misshifts to speak of yet. That combined with new shifter cables from PushPull.com seems to have def helped shift quality.

Ya the 12 oclock pad has to be better in every aspect. My next trans in gonna cut the fork for 4 of them. Going 10 and 2 oclock.....

[BadAssPerformance]

When I had the trans apart I was going to do the 12o'clock pad but thought I'd like to test the bronze parts more in the stock only locations so just put it back together. I'm thinking we need a new pad design for the 12o'clock on 568/523 3-4 fork too... maybe can fit a full u-channel in there instead of the "H" type... have to look at the dims I sent adam, but I think one of the older pads is the right width?

[bfarroo]

So are you going to be making these anytime soon JT? I probably won't have the trans apart this summer but it would be a nice winter project.

[BadAssPerformance]

Yep.. sometime soon... I sent the sketches dimensions for each pad to Adam and he's gonna see what he can do

[black86glhs]

Remember you said you wanted to send me some 555 pads to do some performance testing. I am close to getting it back together.......hint,hint.:D;):thumbup:

[BadAssPerformance]

LOL... As far as I'm concerned, no more protot testing needed :thumb:

[83rampage]

I added the 3rd pad in the 12 o'clock position on my A555 on the 1-2 selector and the 3-4 selector. So far, I'd say it's a win. Simple to do with a file and it does take out some rock. Have about 120 street miles on it so far and about 5 passes on the track with no misshifts to speak of yet. That combined with new shifter cables from PushPull.com seems to have def helped shift quality.

I'm curious how you did this. I've got an 88 A520, and an 89 A555 apart right now, and the the 1-2 shifter fork on both do not have a thick enough casting between the 2 pads to ever get a 3rd pad to seat properly unless you are actualy putting the pad right beside one of the originals. I was thinking when you say the 12 oclock position it is right between the 2 pads.

Are there different 1-2 shift forks (i.e. different year) that are thick enough to do this?

[Reeves]

I'm curious how you did this. I've got an 88 A520, and an 89 A555 apart right now, and the the 1-2 shifter fork on both do not have a thick enough casting between the 2 pads to ever get a 3rd pad to seat properly unless you are actualy putting the pad right beside one of the originals. I was thinking when you say the 12 oclock position it is right between the 2 pads.

Are there different 1-2 shift forks (i.e. different year) that are thick enough to do this?

Does the 1-2 shifter fork on yours have black pads or grey pads? Either way, you have to use a black pad in the 12'oclock spot.

[135sohc]

I picked up a busted and beaten 90 568 just for this test/fitment evaluation. The 90 3-4 shift fork pad on the 568/543/523 is unique to that year as is the fork. You cannot use one without the other, the later H-shaped pads will fall off the earlier slightly wider fork and the earlier pads will not fit onto the later fork and then try to install it. So I got out a pair of the black fork pads used on the 525/520/555 ect. Dimensionally they are identical, the mounting 'nib' is off center on the 90 3-4 pad vs center on the black pad and the 90 3-4 pad has one end slightly curved in to clear the reverse idler setup, but thats it. I did notice the black pad maybe didnt fit quite as well into the fork slot but when I tried another pad and changed to the opposite side it fit like a glove... So maybe just a touch with the jewelers file and it should be good to go.

[135sohc]

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/135SoHc/th_Picture056.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/135SoHc/?action=view&current=Picture056.jpg)

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/135SoHc/th_Picture058.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/135SoHc/?action=view&current=Picture058.jpg)

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/135SoHc/th_Picture060.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/135SoHc/?action=view&current=Picture060.jpg)

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/135SoHc/th_Picture061.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/135SoHc/?action=view&current=Picture061.jpg)

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/135SoHc/th_Picture065.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/135SoHc/?action=view&current=Picture065.jpg)

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/135SoHc/th_Picture062.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/135SoHc/?action=view&current=Picture062.jpg)

[135sohc]

Maybe 3-4 strokes with a regular mill bastard file and the two side pads fit like a glove. The center position took maybe 5 minutes to file the notch and fit the pad into place. I did tack them into place with a drop of superglue and test fitted into the transmission. Fit like it was meant to be... Transmission in the car is leaking from the end plate now so I think tomorrow I'll open it up and swap the 3-4 forks to see how this one works, change 3rd since the newer 568 has a slightly better 3rd gear.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/135SoHc/th_Picture067-1.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/135SoHc/?action=view&current=Picture067-1.jpg)

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/135SoHc/th_Picture068.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/135SoHc/?action=view&current=Picture068.jpg)

[Reaper1]

Wow! That looks good!

[Ondonti]

?
At what point are our shift forks going to need to be upgraded with all these other helpful changes?

[94GTC]

I have a couple of questions to ask about the wear. I have seen this wear in OTR shift forks, and it is almost always in a long nose and not so much in cab overs. You are not by chance holding the shifter in 3rd while you are waiting to grab a gear are you? When you have your hand on the shifter while the engine is spinning, say 7k, you are putting a constant side load on the pad. A little OT, but the plastic pads in the brown "race trucks" don't hold up at all compared to the bronze forks. Sign me up for a couple sets.

[lengel]

Started making some a568 3-4 pads! This is as far as i got. This bar(6"long 1"diameter) will do 30 pads, and i have another bar machined to the same point as this one, so that will be 60 pads total.
http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/bethany017/Picture002-1.jpg

[135sohc]

Nice :clap: :nod:

Are you going to do anything with the 90 only 3-4 pad ?

[lengel]

Nice :clap: :nod:

Are you going to do anything with the 90 only 3-4 pad ?

I was going to start with the 91+ a568 first, and if theres demand for other transmissions I can look in to making them as well.

[BadAssPerformance]

Nice work! :clap: Thanks for making thsi happen!

[Reaper1]

I want a full set for A555!

[lengel]

Got the 3-4 pad done! Heres a picture of them next to stock pads. If your interested in buying 91+a568 pads look for my thread in the group section.


Adam


http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/bethany017/101_2455.jpg