CAI or catch can

[nurseswim]

anyone install an aftermarket CAI or catch can on a 2.5 liter turbo?
any suggestions on this idea?

[cordes]

Tons of guys have. I would suggest making sure that you are still pulling vac from the crank case while in boost.

[turbovanman²]

anyone install an aftermarket CAI or catch can on a 2.5 liter turbo?
any suggestions on this idea?

Most of us have. The CAI is all custom, just route a cone filter to the front.

For the catch can, you can remove the factory vent hose, run it to a catch can then use a filter on the catch can or run it to the CAI pipe.

[DodgeZ]

Tons of guys have. I would suggest making sure that you are still pulling vac from the crank case while in boost.

What he said.


there is some more info here.

http://boostedmopar.com/forums/showthread.php?108-FAQ-PCV!!!-Read-before-you-install-an-air-intake.&p=559&viewfull=1#post559

[nurseswim]

any pictures of an aftermarket cai on a 2.5 turbo? thanks for the insight

[nurseswim]

would the CAI hook up to the throttle body, or directly to the turbo- i have seen this both ways on you tube. please advise

[prepared]

Stop.

I highly recommend you read up on how turbos work and more information about our cars before you begin modifications to your car.

Go to the turbo database at www.thedodgegarage.com

Read. Read it again. Come back here if you have questions. Once you understand how things work, you will be able to start modifications!!


To help answer your question:

A CAI will be plumbed to the air intake off your turbo. You will also have to deal with modifying the PCV system once you remove your factory air box. I believe that the factory air intake system, if complete, is adequate at low to moderate horse power levels. I don't see any benefit of a custom CAI until you are really making power.

[BadAssPerformance]

I would suggest making sure that you are still pulling vac from the crank case while in boost.

I agree that this will aid in performance, but is not a requirement.

[DodgeZ]

I agree that this will aid in performance, but is not a requirement.

wow....

[BadAssPerformance]

wow....

Whats wow about? :confused2:

OK, maybe its a bad idea... I only know of two 10 second TM's in Chicago that dont pull vacuum on their crank cases.

[DodgeZ]

Whats wow about? :confused2:

OK, maybe its a bad idea... I only know of two 10 second TM's in Chicago that dont pull vacuum on their crank cases.

you and tommy? You both are using the stock PCV (8valve) system?

[BadAssPerformance]

you and tommy? You both are using the stock PCV (8valve) system?

Correct. No PCV valve on either car.

[DodgeZ]

Correct. No PCV valve on either car.

Did you just go Simon on me?

[contraption22]

I use a factory PVC on my car. One of those things I have been meaning to address.

[prepared]

I've always vented to atmosphere under boost. Of course, this is something I always meant to address but never have.

[bakes]

I know of a couple of non pvc cars running around on the track and one on the street.

[DodgeZ]

I know of a couple of non pvc cars running around on the track and one on the street.

I don't run pvc on my cars either.

[Force Fed Mopar]

There's no way in hell I would run one of these cars on the street w/o a PCV valve.

[BadAssPerformance]

I don't run pvc on my cars either.

Cool.


There's no way in hell I would run one of these cars on the street w/o a PCV valve.

To each his own.

[turbovanman²]

There's no way in hell I would run one of these cars on the street w/o a PCV valve.

Why? Please explain how not running one is bad for an engine! FYI, up until the 70's, engines didn't run one, do you know why they were added?

[GLHNSLHT2]

Here's my CAI for my 2.5 turbo.
http://www.pnw-sdac.org/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1739&g2_serialNumber=4

It get's installed in this cold air box.
http://www.pnw-sdac.org/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=2665&g2_serialNumber=5

http://www.pnw-sdac.org/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1736&g2_serialNumber=7

[turbovanman²]

Here's mine, its since been redone but not as nice as Jay's.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/a7f59b17.jpg

[BadAssPerformance]

My CAI and Catch Can

[cordes]

What is that pre filter deal you have on there JT? Do you have a PN for that filter?

[Juggy]

its just a k&n crankcase filter on the catch can

edit: unless your talking about the dust/water cover on his main air filter??
lots of motorcycle guys use them

[Force Fed Mopar]

Why? Please explain how not running one is bad for an engine! FYI, up until the 70's, engines didn't run one, do you know why they were added?

I didn't say it was bad for the engine :confused2: It's just bad for your wallet, cause you'll be buying oil more often, it's also bad for your friends' driveways when you pull in after getting on it and leak oil on them :eyebrows: And they had PCV systems in the 60's. And I guess for all this mechanicing you say you do, you've never seen a 5.0 Ford that leaked oil all over until the PCV filter was cleaned out?

You guys always use your race cars (vans, whatever ;) ) as examples for what to do on a street car, but there is a big difference in what needs to be done sometimes.

Oh, and PCV is pretty self-explanatory, but if you need it explained Simon, it stands for Positive Crankcase Ventilation, and was added to helped rings to seal, keep seals from leaking as easily, and to help keep oil vapors from venting into the atmosphere and upsetting the tree huggers :thumb: Or at least those are the benefits I see, perhaps you would care to tell us your opinion?

[DodgeZ]

My CAI and Catch Can

JT, that is a nice filter on your catch can. Please explain how it works. Do you typical see a lot of vacuum in your catch can that you want to make sure the in coming air is filtered? Or do just use the filter on the oil vapors before it vents to the atmosphere?

[iangoround]

I don't run pvc on my cars either.



http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg32/ihildreth/f-i-lold-7020.jpg

[DodgeZ]

http://www.2flashgames.com/2fgkjn134kjlh1cfn81vc34/flash/f-i-lold-7020.jpg

I am glad someone caught that one. LOL

[BadAssPerformance]

What is that pre filter deal you have on there JT? Do you have a PN for that filter?

The sock on the K&N? Or the breather on the catch can?


its just a k&n crankcase filter on the catch can

edit: unless your talking about the dust/water cover on his main air filter??
lots of motorcycle guys use them

I added the water cover after SDAC thinking the filter might get wet from the left slick?


JT, that is a nice filter on your catch can. Please explain how it works. Do you typical see a lot of vacuum in your catch can that you want to make sure the in coming air is filtered? Or do just use the filter on the oil vapors before it vents to the atmosphere?

Just use the K&N breather as a breather.... so basically a a high flowing cover on the vent stack of the catch can.... thought the custom can and breather looked a little nicer than the Powerade bottle I used to vent into...

[turbovanman²]

What is that pre filter deal you have on there JT? Do you have a PN for that filter?

You can't run that filter on the catch can, Dodge Z said so, :confused:

That's exactly what I do, :thumb:


I didn't say it was bad for the engine :confused2: It's just bad for your wallet, cause you'll be buying oil more often, it's also bad for your friends' driveways when you pull in after getting on it and leak oil on them :eyebrows: And they had PCV systems in the 60's. And I guess for all this mechanicing you say you do, you've never seen a 5.0 Ford that leaked oil all over until the PCV filter was cleaned out?

You guys always use your race cars (vans, whatever ;) ) as examples for what to do on a street car, but there is a big difference in what needs to be done sometimes.

Oh, and PCV is pretty self-explanatory, but if you need it explained Simon, it stands for Positive Crankcase Ventilation, and was added to helped rings to seal, keep seals from leaking as easily, and to help keep oil vapors from venting into the atmosphere and upsetting the tree huggers :thumb: Or at least those are the benefits I see, perhaps you would care to tell us your opinion?

Just making sure you know what you are talking about.

PCV's don't do jack shitt for ring seal, they are closed during boost and mostly closed at idle or light throttle, and it has nothing to do with helping seals seal. The main and only reason for a PCV is your last comment, its to reburn the HC's being emitted from blowby to reduce pollution.

As for changing the oil more, why? and you just pointed out why a PCV can be bad, your example is bang on.

Again, why does not running one make a difference for street or race and why are they bad examples?

I just asssumed you figured they are bad for not running one as you said there is no "way in hell" you'd run an engine without one, to which I am still puzzled on that? :confused:


What is that pre filter deal you have on there JT? Do you have a PN for that filter?


If you buy the Moroso catch can, they come with one, :eyebrows:

But yeah, as others have said, you just measure the base of the can and order the size you need.

[DodgeZ]

You can't run that filter on the catch can, Dodge Z said so, :confused:

That's exactly what I do, :thumb:



Just making sure you know what you are talking about.

PCV's don't do jack shitt for ring seal, they are closed during boost and mostly closed at idle or light throttle, and it has nothing to do with helping seals seal. The main and only reason for a PCV is your last comment, its to reburn the HC's being emitted from blowby to reduce pollution.

As for changing the oil more, why? and you just pointed out why a PCV can be bad, your example is bang on.

Again, why does not running one make a difference for street or race and why are they bad examples?

I just asssumed you figured they are bad for not running one as you said there is no "way in hell" you'd run an engine without one, to which I am still puzzled on that? :confused:




If you buy the Moroso catch can, they come with one, :eyebrows:

But yeah, as others have said, you just measure the base of the can and order the size you need.

:thumb: god you are smart.

[DodgeZ]

Just use the K&N breather as a breather.... so basically a a high flowing cover on the vent stack of the catch can.... thought the custom can and breather looked a little nicer than the Powerade bottle I used to vent into...

It is pretty bling.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Just making sure you know what you are talking about.

PCV's don't do jack shitt for ring seal, they are closed during boost and mostly closed at idle or light throttle, and it has nothing to do with helping seals seal. The main and only reason for a PCV is your last comment, its to reburn the HC's being emitted from blowby to reduce pollution.

As for changing the oil more, why? and you just pointed out why a PCV can be bad, your example is bang on.

Again, why does not running one make a difference for street or race and why are they bad examples?

I just asssumed you figured they are bad for not running one as you said there is no "way in hell" you'd run an engine without one, to which I am still puzzled on that? :confused:


Do you have boost in your engine constantly on the street? I don't. This is why I have issues with you guys using race cars as examples. On the street, the PCV is working 99% of the time (okay, maybe 89% for some of us w/ lead feet :p) , in which case yes it is helping seal the rings by pulling a vacuum in the crankcase. They are not mostly closed at idle, have you never put your finger over the end of a PCV valve? You are right in that they work less as vacuum decreases, but most street driving is in 10-18"hg, except under acceleration. Are you trying to say that vacuum in the crankcase is not needed or a bad thing?

The oil usage is a deduction to be honest. If the is no vacuum in the crankcase, the oil on the cyl walls isn't cleaned off as well by the rings, particularly on higher mileage engines that have carbon deposits in the lands and don't let the oil rings scrape as well as they should. Maybe it's a stretch :)

yes I've seen cars from the factory w/o PCV valves. '89ish Toyota Camry for example. They are all NA cars, and they are not exactly cars I want to model my turbo car's system after. And faulty PCV systems can cause seals to leak due to pressure build up in the crankcase. I used the 5.0 Ford as an example for a reason ;)

[BadAssPerformance]

Do you have boost in your engine constantly on the street? I don't. This is why I have issues with you guys using race cars as examples.

Granted it dont see much street use, the Z is street driven to cruise nights and such. My Shadow has seen tons of street use since I put it together in 2001 and was my daily driver a couple summers. ... no issues


On the street, the PCV is working 99% of the time (okay, maybe 89% for some of us w/ lead feet :p) , in which case yes it is helping seal the rings by pulling a vacuum in the crankcase.

Looking at this liek a physics equation.... so you're saying the crankcase vacuum is stronger than the force of combustion inside the cylinder? Really, for the vacuum to pull on the rings as you suggest, it would have to be more forceful than the forces of combustion...


They are not mostly closed at idle, have you never put your finger over the end of a PCV valve? You are right in that they work less as vacuum decreases, but most street driving is in 10-18"hg, except under acceleration.

Wow, thats high for a 'cruise' vacuum reading... I agree that it shouldnt be zero except when under load and in boost, but not that high?


Are you trying to say that vacuum in the crankcase is not needed or a bad thing?

I would not say it is a bad thing, but I would also say that it is not mandatory either. As long as there is GOOD ventilation to atmosphere a positive pull is only a bonus.


The oil usage is a deduction to be honest. If the is no vacuum in the crankcase, the oil on the cyl walls isn't cleaned off as well by the rings, particularly on higher mileage engines that have carbon deposits in the lands and don't let the oil rings scrape as well as they should. Maybe it's a stretch :)

Stretch :)


yes I've seen cars from the factory w/o PCV valves. '89ish Toyota Camry for example. They are all NA cars, and they are not exactly cars I want to model my turbo car's system after. And faulty PCV systems can cause seals to leak due to pressure build up in the crankcase. I used the 5.0 Ford as an example for a reason ;)

I know you know these cars and tech in general :thumb: and are not one to argue just to argue like Kevin ;) all I'm saying is that there are multiple ways to skin a cat

Here's the way I see it:

Is PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) good? - yes

Is PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) required? - no - as long as adequate ventilation to atmosphere is available. By adequate, I mean a small little breather element is NOT enough, but an open hose on the port going to a well vented catch can seems to work just fine.

[turbovanman²]

Granted it dont see much street use, the Z is street driven to cruise nights and such. My Shadow has seen tons of street use since I put it together in 2001 and was my daily driver a couple summers. ... no issues



Looking at this liek a physics equation.... so you're saying the crankcase vacuum is stronger than the force of combustion inside the cylinder? Really, for the vacuum to pull on the rings as you suggest, it would have to be more forceful than the forces of combustion...



Wow, thats high for a 'cruise' vacuum reading... I agree that it shouldnt be zero except when under load and in boost, but not that high?



I would not say it is a bad thing, but I would also say that it is not mandatory either. As long as there is GOOD ventilation to atmosphere a positive pull is only a bonus.



Stretch :)



I know you know these cars and tech in general :thumb: and are not one to argue just to argue like Kevin ;) all I'm saying is that there are multiple ways to skin a cat

Here's the way I see it:

Is PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) good? - yes

Is PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) required? - no - as long as adequate ventilation to atmosphere is available. By adequate, I mean a small little breather element is NOT enough, but an open hose on the port going to a well vented catch can seems to work just fine.


I'll just say, what he said. :thumb:

Some race cars use vacuum pumps to pull a high vacuum, much higher than 20 inch's.



:thumb: god you are smart.

Thanks. :clap:

[Force Fed Mopar]

My Daytona runs around 10"hg on the highway at 65-70mph, on flat areas and slight inclines. Of course on a good grade it drops to 0 or a few psi of boost even. This is on a 2.2 w/ a FM475 cam (granted I don't know the exact specs on the cam, like how much bigger than stock it is). 12 degrees initial timing.

If combustion gases are leaking past the rings that bad, then I don't think any form of PCV is going to help :)

I understand your point of if there's good enough ventilation, it may not be needed. But, most of the people asking this question have old, 150k mile engines that have worn rings, gummed up/carboned up valve cover baffles, old hardened seals etc etc. These engines need all the help they can get, and just putting a filter on the valve cover nipple doesn't cut it. Your setup might do so.

My personal setup is a cast TBI cover, with the PCV on one nipple and the other runs to the CAI before the turbo. Even with that I still get some oil in the piping, but I think the issue w/ that is that the TBI cover isn't baffled enough as it wasn't designed to be used w/ the turbo setup, and the curtain that goes under it doesn't block the oil vapor very well. And my engine only has around 30k miles on a total rebuild. I'll be reassembling it this weekend I hope (had a bearing and rod issue), so I'll check it out and report back. Or maybe we should just start a valve cover/PCV discussion thread, as it really doesn't have much to do w/ the original topic of this thread :evil:

[cordes]

The sock on the K&N? Or the breather on the catch can?





The sock and the actual filter for the air inlet to the turbo. That fits really well up there it looks like.

[DodgeZ]

I'll just say, what he said. :thumb:
This is probably the smartest thing you have ever said.


Some race cars use vacuum pumps to pull a high vacuum, much higher than 20 inch's.
You are so full of bad info it isn't funny. Anything that pulls more then 20 inch's of vacuum in the crankcase isn't related to our cars.

"How much vacuum should you use? You should check with your engine builder as there may be some special issues or firm opinions that they may have. In general GZMS recommends no more than 15" of vacuum in a drag race wet sump application without pressure feeding oil to the wrist pins. In our own in house testing, anything over 12" seemed to offer relatively nominal increases in horsepower (maybe 15% between 10" and 15"). "
http://www.gzmotorsports.com/vacuum-pump-guide.html


"The "vacuum" increases the pressure differential across the ring package, producing an improved ring seal. "
http://nutterracingengines.com/racing_oil_pumps/crankcase_vacuum_facts.html



PCV valve sucks out blow by gases that will pollute engine oil. They also suck out water vapors. Most race cars that sit in a garage don't have the whole condensation in crankcase problem...


this link is for you Simon.
http://tinyurl.com/2u5mkte

[GLHNSLHT2]

My Daytona runs around 10"hg on the highway at 65-70mph,

The 2.5 in my tona ran 15-17" of vac at cruise at 70-75MPH. Anything less and I knew something was wrong.

[cordes]

The 2.5 in my tona ran 15-17" of vac at cruise at 70-75MPH. Anything less and I knew something was wrong.

Was it bone stock? MP or custom cal in there? My Daytona with a 2.2 will only run about 10-12" on average. 15" if it's dead flat.

[turbovanman²]

This is probably the smartest thing you have ever said.


You are so full of bad info it isn't funny. Anything that pulls more then 20 inch's of vacuum in the crankcase isn't related to our cars.

"How much vacuum should you use? You should check with your engine builder as there may be some special issues or firm opinions that they may have. In general GZMS recommends no more than 15" of vacuum in a drag race wet sump application without pressure feeding oil to the wrist pins. In our own in house testing, anything over 12" seemed to offer relatively nominal increases in horsepower (maybe 15% between 10" and 15"). "
http://www.gzmotorsports.com/vacuum-pump-guide.html


"The "vacuum" increases the pressure differential across the ring package, producing an improved ring seal. "
http://nutterracingengines.com/racing_oil_pumps/crankcase_vacuum_facts.html



PCV valve sucks out blow by gases that will pollute engine oil. They also suck out water vapors. Most race cars that sit in a garage don't have the whole condensation in crankcase problem...


this link is for you Simon.
http://tinyurl.com/2u5mkte

Ok, so I got the number a bit out, big whoop. Right, and your telling me a simple PCV setup will pull an absolute vacuum in an engine, RIIIIIIIIIGHT, pull the other one, I guess these guys using multi-stage vacuum pumps just need to talk to you about how to setup a PCV system, they must be doing something wrong and spending way too much money. :rolleyes: Try reading your own links.

A warmed up engine doesn't produce water vapour, and any vapour is burned off by the heat of operation unless you drive 5 mins to work. Try again, so you better tell Cummins they are wrong, damn engineers, guess they should call you about how to design their PCV setups. Damn dude, f*ck being a computer geek, offer your vast PCV knowledge to all the OEM's and Race teams, you'd be rich, :thumb:

[Force Fed Mopar]

The 2.5 in my tona ran 15-17" of vac at cruise at 70-75MPH. Anything less and I knew something was wrong.

10"hg is the average, I've seen the same as yours at around 65-70 on flat surfaces, but when you hit a slight incline and have to give it a little more gas, it drops to around 5-10 hg. I also have a 2.2, little less torque to keep it going in the lower revs.

[Force Fed Mopar]

A warmed up engine doesn't produce water vapour, and any vapour is burned off by the heat of operation unless you drive 5 mins to work.

Or unless you live in the colder northern winter areas ;) I've seen it even down here, on my V8's, in the winter time there is a water/oil mix on the dipstick and underside of the oil cap. Particularly when running a cold t-stat, or none at all. And that is with a working PCV system :thumb:

[GLHNSLHT2]

Was it bone stock? MP or custom cal in there? My Daytona with a 2.2 will only run about 10-12" on average. 15" if it's dead flat.

Stock head and intake manny. The exhaust side was well modified. More stock it was 14-15.


10"hg is the average, I've seen the same as yours at around 65-70 on flat surfaces, but when you hit a slight incline and have to give it a little more gas, it drops to around 5-10 hg. I also have a 2.2, little less torque to keep it going in the lower revs.

yea my Auto 2.2 new yorker runs 11-13" at 70. My GLH ran 10-12 but was really tired.

[shackwrrr]

Im a fan of running the exhaust evac. also why does anyone ever need a catch can? I took my stock VC baffle out and sealed it with RTV. I haven't had a drop of oil come out of that line yet. I also ran for a while with the vc port open completely for a while and I never had any problems, Then I went to a "draft tube" where I had a piece of hose on the VC and ran it under the car with a angle cut on it. Now I have the exhaust one set up on it only for ring seal which I have to say is pretty good on mine since it pulls a steady 19in of vac. My jeeps v8 wont even pull 15in.