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StraX22
07-26-2010, 11:21 AM
This is a continuation of the previous thread located here. (http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43834)
For those just tuning in, I had an ’89 turbo voyager in which I built up a snazzy new motor and then promptly wrecked it. Since the motor was still good I decided to transplant it into a new van. I’ve always liked the 2nd generation vans more than the first so I set out on a journey to find a suitable one to start with. I ended up finding a 1995 Plymouth Voyager in the Dallas, TX area. It was a fun filled 4 hour trip each way to pick it up with the tow dolly. I had bought it with very little information and only a crappy cell phone picture to go off of but luckily I think it turned out well. Here’s what you might have missed in picture form.

The old van after kissing a F150

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC01748Large.jpg

The new van

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC01019Large.jpg

The junkyard parts I scored for the new van

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/0711101615aMedium.jpg

Sport front and rear bumper covers

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/0711101614aMedium.jpg

Removing the locked up 3.0 V6 from the new van from the top. This was the first time either of us attempted it and it seemed to work well.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/CIMG0592Large.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/CIMG0593Large.jpg

Sawzalling off the automatic shifter since it will not be required and because it was being a B

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/CIMG0616Large.jpg

Yesterday We towed it to one of those coin operated car washes and blasted all of the crud out of the engine bay. I then gave it a quick washdown with some soapy water. I now deem it satisfactory for a new motor.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01354Medium.jpg
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01353Medium.jpg

I also took apart the dash to un-install the crappy alarm system and prepare it for any modifications. The design is WAY nicer to work with than the 1st gens.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01355Medium.jpg

The wiring harness will prove to be the most difficult part of the conversion. I still plan on running the ’89 SMEC controller but I also wanted to keep the underhood fuse and relay center. To do this I had to add a few extra wires and replace some of the older connectors. I paid for a year subscription on AlldataDIY for the ’89 and ’95. Having these wiring diagrams are completely necessary. I plan on tying up the harness with black nylon lacing cord to get that old school aircraft look.
I do have an electronics workstation but it is currently loaded up with amplifiers. The couch is always a good standby workstation. :thumb:

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01349Medium.jpg

ShelGame
07-26-2010, 11:53 AM
Subscribed :thumb:

I wanted to go this route myself, but found the deal for my 89 Voyager first. I still keep looking for a 2nd gen to convert, though...

mcsvt
07-26-2010, 11:54 AM
I like where this is going, can't wait to see how it turns out :thumb:

turbokid
07-27-2010, 09:56 AM
looks like a great platform

turbovanman²
07-27-2010, 02:42 PM
Awesome job on cleaning the engine bay, :hail:

We can't do that here, if we tried that, we'd be fined, :(

StraX22
07-27-2010, 07:07 PM
Awesome job on cleaning the engine bay, :hail:

We can't do that here, if we tried that, we'd be fined, :(

Our only concern was that the guy that we guess manages the place doesn't notice or care.:eyebrows:

I am curious to see how the old computer's CCD bus (which according to the diagrams it has but only uses for ABS) interfaces with the 1995 BCM and gauges. I already know that the steering mounted cruise control switches won't work with the '89 computer because it uses a resistance signal to eliminate extra wires. Worst case scenario I'll just mount the the 1995 SBEC somewhere in the dash to act as a passive interpreter.

Vigo
07-27-2010, 09:05 PM
Just in case anybody missed it, theres a factory rear sway bar in those pics, and the trans is a 3.85 FD 523.

I know of some very nice parts that have yet to be mentioned, too:eyebrows:


I think we're pretty much at the point of being ready to tear down the old van.. assuming the harness is finished by the time we do that, it should go back together pretty quickly and end up being a much nicer vehicle than the 89 was, with more comfort, style, handling, gears (:p) and power.

Oh, and since it already has a hitch on it, we wont have to add one so you can start towing MY broken stuff around when it breaks :lol:

Matt86
07-28-2010, 12:06 AM
Excellent choice, the 94-95 minivans are great. They have the better looking dash with dual air bags. The top part of the dash is a bit annoying to remove...lots of black philips screws.

As far as the rear sway bar, the van I got my rear leaf springs off of had one, but my 94' dosn't have the mounts on the axle for the bar.

Awesome project! 2nd gen vans are great.

A.J.
07-28-2010, 12:22 AM
Nice project. I'm interested to see what you do for the SMEC and the BCM communication. I think you'll end up piggy backing the original computer.

A.J.

Vigo
07-28-2010, 03:02 AM
As far as the rear sway bar, the van I got my rear leaf springs off of had one, but my 94' dosn't have the mounts on the axle for the bar.

He is going to use 2 3/4" exhaust clamps to form the base for the axle mounts of the sway bar.

Check out A.J.'s rear sway install write-up for a visual on that.

ShelGame
07-28-2010, 08:43 AM
If you want some help customizing the SMEC to try and get it to send out the needed data over the CCD bus, I can probably help. The routines are basically the same, but the later computers send more data out. I think I can probably modify the SMEC to send out the same data as the later computers.

When you get to that point, let me know...

turbokid
07-28-2010, 09:55 AM
That would be pretty awesome if you could make the computer work. Maybe a little testing for something later down the road :)

ShelGame
07-28-2010, 10:24 AM
I thought about making a CCD bus-based data recorder. The problem is, nobody makes the CCD bus chip anymore. The only way to get them is to salvage them from old Chrysler products. Kind of a PITA...

StraX22
07-28-2010, 08:32 PM
I thought about making a CCD bus-based data recorder. The problem is, nobody makes the CCD bus chip anymore. The only way to get them is to salvage them from old Chrysler products. Kind of a PITA...

Hmmm, I have been eyeing a USB DSO / logic & protocol analyzer...:p

turbovanman²
07-28-2010, 08:38 PM
He is going to use 2 3/4" exhaust clamps to form the base for the axle mounts of the sway bar.

Check out A.J.'s rear sway install write-up for a visual on that.

Mine too, I used a stock 2nd Gen rear bar, I think AJ used a Jeep one.

Vigo
07-28-2010, 11:10 PM
Mine too, I used a stock 2nd Gen rear bar, I think AJ used a Jeep one.

True that.. problem is, i can never seem to remember just how to find EITHER one of your write-ups without digging for it for a few minutes!

Got link?


For myself, im going the overkill/dangerous route and using a 2g Dakota front sway on the back of my van.:eyebrows::confused:

Matt86
07-28-2010, 11:49 PM
He is going to use 2 3/4" exhaust clamps to form the base for the axle mounts of the sway bar.

Check out A.J.'s rear sway install write-up for a visual on that.

Excellent! I'll have to pick some up and wait for it to cool down to go back and get the bar.

A.J.
07-29-2010, 12:48 AM
I used the front sway bar from a '93 Jeep Cherokee on the rear of my van.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3769

I had to move the sway bar link brackets when I installed the class three hitch.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22444

A.J.

StraX22
08-08-2010, 01:14 AM
The new phone books are here!
Here are the new toys I got in the mail thanks to a couple TM members.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01358Medium.jpg

It was my original intention to use a 2 piece intake on the van, but they're pretty hard to come by these days.

The intake had a 52mm throttle body bolted on but it wasn't ported to match.
This is why it's necessary to port match.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01359Medium.jpg

There's nothing like a brick wall to help airflow. :)
I disassembled the throttle body and scribed the inside of it on to the intake. From there I used a carbide bit to wallow out the hole. After I had it opened to the correct diameter I blended it deep into the neck.

Carbide burr chocked up in a corded drill for ease and noise (darn apartments with their people).

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01360Medium.jpg

This is what the rough cutting looked like. I've yet to take a picture of the finished product.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01361Medium.jpg

I still need to port it to match the cylinder head.

BadAssPerformance
08-08-2010, 01:24 AM
Sorry on the damage to the old van but cool project on the new one! :nod:

Got any closer pics of the intercooler core? any markings on the tanks? Got a thread on these...


http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01358Medium.jpg

Vigo
08-08-2010, 02:02 AM
It came with a knock sensor still on it? Score! :p

It came with a throttle bracket still on it? Score! :p
Can haz purchase throttle bracket from you? I actually need one...

turbovanman²
08-12-2010, 07:43 PM
IIRC, 2nd Gen vans had the threaded holes in the frame for the rear sway bar, so score on that, :thumb:

Vigo
08-14-2010, 11:13 PM
Well, we pulled the engine out of the old van this morning.

We've still got a few odds and ends to pull off it.. It will probably be stripped and recycled by the end of the coming week.

We also went to the junkyard and picked up newer style mounts needed for the new van. We found another 523 van and got them out of that.

Heat index was 110 today while we were at the junkyard.. both of us are feeling a bit sick..

Mason has some pics on the camera to post up at some point.

Vigo
08-15-2010, 08:25 PM
Picked up a 568 for the van today. Came with a whole car attached to it. :p

StraX22
08-16-2010, 08:54 AM
The gray van finally gave up it's motor with the help of friends and a lift.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01373Medium.jpg
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01374Medium.jpg
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01375Medium.jpg

Truck full-o-goodies

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01377Medium.jpg

If anyone needs any parts off of the shell before it goes to the scrappers let me or Adam know ASAP.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01378Medium.jpg

Also, we picked up the 568 I plan on using. This will be parted out at some point the short block and rad/ic might also be spoken for. Stay tuned.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01380Medium.jpg

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01379Medium.jpg

Vigo
08-30-2010, 11:32 PM
Well it seems like this van project has been a lot of drudgery, but it keeps inching forward bit by bit! It's going to be way better than the last van but the frustrating part of it has just been getting the time to work on it.. we got about 3 hours of work into it tonight.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02093Large.jpg

Here's the bobble strut bracket i welded on with my $89 HF welder. :D

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02090Large.jpg

Yanked off that nasty old FLEXPLATE and replaced with FLYWHEEL. Definite upgrade :D

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02091Large.jpg

By far the easiest way to spline the trans into the clutch.. stand the motor up and put the trans straight down onto it.

StraX22
09-06-2010, 11:47 PM
Great News!
As of the 1st. the engine was hanging in the engine bay.
As of tonight, it was able to drive under it's own power down the street!
There was a bit of panic when the ASD failed to cycle at the first key on, but we were able to track it down to a fuse under the dash. After that the motor sprang to life with a minimal of cranking. There are still a couple of wonky electrical issues in the cabin / body but they should pose no problem. For all of those wondering, the coolant temp and fuel level gauges worked as was expected, but no speedo. Right now it's just a minor inconvenience.

pictures to follow

Turboomni
09-07-2010, 12:21 AM
Man ! Nice thread here . I had a 89 turbo minivan back in the late 90's, I intercooled it with the available Volvo IC,, Garret turbo upgrade etc,,,anyways this brings back alot of memories and excitment.
Keep up the good work!

oldyeller
09-07-2010, 01:21 AM
Hey noticed that you doing an 89 to a 95 motor swap:eyebrows: Will the air bags work??? and also what wiring did you have to do? I am now swapping an 89 motor and computer into a 94 acclaim and ran into the same problem about the wiring harness. Dont mind if some stuff does not work over the winter Ill fix it next summer but as of right now I need it to be able to move around well. I am swapping out the harness and I think the most of the connections will work I just have to workinto the connections for turn sig, high and low beams and all that!

Any chance of sharing those diagrams??:bump2:

Nice work keep the tecnical stuff simple for ppl like me!!:confused2: hahaha

Vigo
09-07-2010, 01:30 AM
There's no guarantee the diagrams would be helpful across platforms, but anyone can buy a year's (or even a month's) access to a specific vehicle on AllDataDIY. It's about 15-20$ a year for access to one car. Once you have access, you can spend time saving all the diagrams to your computer if you want to.. If you google alldatadiy you can find some coupon codes to knock a few bucks off the cost.

Dave
09-07-2010, 01:55 AM
Good stuff man!! Love the 2nd gens as well. That engine bay and k-frame came out very clean.

More pics of the finished product please! :D

Also, were the motor mounts all the same?

Vigo
09-07-2010, 12:46 PM
Well, the motor mounts were all the newer 'big' style like what you'd find in a 90-up car, too. Everything was stock mounts out of a 90-up 2.5 van, except we had to add the bobble strut bracket to the k-frame.

oldyeller
09-07-2010, 08:53 PM
Wait wont the mounts from the turbo model vans be stronger? Cuz they are made for cars with more power??? Or there is no difference from small to big?

Vigo
09-07-2010, 11:49 PM
There is no difference between the mounts from TBI to turbo as far as strength. For that matter, the strongest stock motor ever sold in a minivan wasnt the turbo motor at all, it was the 3.8L v6.

turbovanman²
09-08-2010, 01:02 AM
Glad to see some progress, I sure love my van, :love:

oldyeller
09-09-2010, 12:56 AM
But the mounts to a 3.8 will not bolt up to a 2.5 turbo?? Will they?

Also I mean by not how much waight and tourqe they can take I mean how stiffly they hold the motor. Or am I not making sence here? Crap I hate typing I always get the wrong point across! :P

135sohc
09-09-2010, 01:27 AM
But the mounts to a 3.8 will not bolt up to a 2.5 turbo?? Will they?

Also I mean by not how much waight and tourqe they can take I mean how stiffly they hold the motor. Or am I not making sence here? Crap I hate typing I always get the wrong point across! :P

These cars use a 2 piece type motor mount. The 1/2 that bolts to the car is the same for everything regardless of the engine/transmission. The other 1/2 that bolts to the block/transmission is the matched part to whatever engine you've got.

StraX22
09-09-2010, 09:33 AM
Also I mean by not how much waight and tourqe they can take I mean how stiffly they hold the motor. Or am I not making sence here? Crap I hate typing I always get the wrong point across! :P

I've never heard of anyone breaking a motor mount without some external influence like a car wreck. The only issues I know of that can be caused by sagging motor mounts are wheel hop and drive train misalignment. With the addition of polyurethane mounts they're pretty much bullet proof.

Heck, Chrysler even did a pretty nasty job welding the passenger side mount to the body on most cars and I've yet to see one break.

Vigo
09-09-2010, 03:17 PM
Got pictures off the camera from Monday.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02248Large.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02249Large.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02251Large.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02247Large.jpg

Apparently i only took pictures of making radiator hoses. The van is all back together now, except the grille is out.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02257Large.jpg

You see the kinda crap i have to deal with out here? Ive been stung by scorpions two or three times just in the last month. Anwyay if you're wondering what that giant blob in the upper right is, its my finger. This one is tiny.. STEALTHY!

turbovanman²
09-09-2010, 07:02 PM
Looking good, :nod:

Scorpions, yikes, :wow1:



I've never heard of anyone breaking a motor mount without some external influence like a car wreck. The only issues I know of that can be caused by sagging motor mounts are wheel hop and drive train misalignment. With the addition of polyurethane mounts they're pretty much bullet proof.

Heck, Chrysler even did a pretty nasty job welding the passenger side mount to the body on most cars and I've yet to see one break.

No doubt, :eyebrows:

135sohc
09-09-2010, 07:10 PM
Welds breaking or the rubber inserts breaking ? I've seen more than a couple broken front mounts and tons of the later big style p-side mounts with the front 'leg' broken from the motor torquing over and ripping it.

Vigo
09-09-2010, 09:45 PM
Yeh the scorpions that normally sting me are like 15X that size :(

I havent seen any welds broken or any of the metal part broken. If i had to guess i would say that most or all that HAVE broken are because one or more sloppy mounts left enough slack that the motor could really bang around and have some momentum.. If the rubber parts are in good condition i dont see how anything else could fail.

oldyeller
09-09-2010, 11:51 PM
Vigo whats the motor in the van? Turbo I, II or what?? And how much power is it putting down?
Ran into any problems or expecting any with cruse now that its stick?



Side note so sorry I hijacked your thread Ill post a new one aobut all my Q's about motor mounts and all that!

Vigo
09-10-2010, 12:04 AM
Well it's not my van i've just been present every step of the way.. its Strax22's van.

It's an 89 common block 2.5 that's been rebuilt (to stock turbo spec), with a 782 head, stock 89 turbo cam, 2pc intake w/ 52mm TB, stock exhaust manifold redrilled the standard T3 turbo flange pattern.. Stock TIII turbo adapted to run on an 8v motor (slightly bigger compressor side and different style turbine housing, still .48 and i think the same wheel)..+40 injectors, AFPR, 2.5" mandrel exhaust all the way back, 6puck ceramic clutch, 568 trans.. i think thats it (phew).

As for the cruise, I think mason said he has to swap the clockspring to an older part because the new style has less wires than the old so he wouldn't be able to use the steering wheel switches to run the 89-style cruise without changing the clockspring out.. so as of right now its up in the air what it would take to get it to work.

oldyeller
09-10-2010, 12:24 AM
Let me know if he can get the controls on the streeing wheel controls to work cuz I would love to get mine to work next year.

Vigo
09-12-2010, 01:02 AM
The man made the trip home today (from my 'shop' to Strax22's place) complete and under its own power!

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02281Large.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02283Large.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02287Large.jpg

It's been a long journey from taking apart the wrecked gray van to getting this one put together and driving but in the end it is something far more unique (and comfortable, and modern).. One of VERY few 2nd gen turbo vans, and a 568 5spd one at that! So this is the end of the hard part.. and the beginning of the FUN part. :eyebrows:

turbovanman²
09-12-2010, 01:07 AM
Awesome, great job guys, :nod: :partywoot:

Dave
09-12-2010, 05:59 AM
Good to see it's under its own power. :nod: Looks like it would be far more comfortable and enjoyable than a 1st gen.

How bad was it on the electronics' side for the swap?

StraX22
09-12-2010, 01:08 PM
The only incompatible thing I've yet to deal with on the electronics side is the cruise control and the speedo (I would imagine I'll have the same trouble with the tach once I switch clusters). The cruise control can be solved one of two ways: swap the clock spring out with one from an earlier car with steering wheel mounted cruise control, or by installing the original ECU up under the dash to act as in interpreter. The gauges will either require me hacking the electronics in the cluster to bypass the CCD bus or once again to install the ECU as an interpreter. Since I still have what's left of the original wiring harness and the original ECU, I'm considering making a stripped down harness for it. There's plenty of room in the dash above the steering column and I have a lot of extra supplies and room to re-pin the bulkhead and harness.
I do have a clock spring I could swap out from the Daytona though....
Edit: Forgot to mention that the building of the harness took me about a week and a half working on it part time. And that was with all of the diagrams and proper tools.

Anywhoo, here's a couple more pics...
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01400Medium.jpg
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01401Medium.jpg
I had to modify the plate that hits the brake light switch since it was almost a half inch off!
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01402Medium.jpg

Did anyone mention that it's been insanely hot here lately?
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01403Medium.jpg

ShelGame
09-12-2010, 01:58 PM
The only incompatible thing I've yet to deal with on the electronics side is the cruise control and the speedo (I would imagine I'll have the same trouble with the tach once I switch clusters). The cruise control can be solved one of two ways: swap the clock spring out with one from an earlier car with steering wheel mounted cruise control, or by installing the original ECU up under the dash to act as in interpreter. The gauges will either require me hacking the electronics in the cluster to bypass the CCD bus or once again to install the ECU as an interpreter. Since I still have what's left of the original wiring harness and the original ECU, I'm considering making a stripped down harness for it. There's plenty of room in the dash above the steering column and I have a lot of extra supplies and room to re-pin the bulkhead and harness.
I do have a clock spring I could swap out from the Daytona though....
Edit: Forgot to mention that the building of the harness took me about a week and a half working on it part time. And that was with all of the diagrams and proper tools.



The SBEC-I does actually have a CCD bus built in. I think it was added because the A604 iwas behind many of the 3.0's. But, they added the CCD bus code ot the turbo computers, too. Obvioulsy, the '90 vans didn't use the bus. But, you may only need to add the wires to the 60-way. It might also need some flags set in the ECU. I can try and walk you thru it if you guys are doing your own cals...

Vigo
09-12-2010, 04:25 PM
If by DOING you mean we can view them in D-cal (et al) and we have a chip burner.. hehe then i guess we are doing.

We actually need some help from you on one we burned for another car, seems to hit launch limiter no matter what we do in the cal flags.. will PM you.

Mason, i googled ' i make it rain ' and this was the best result i think:
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT7Yxz6oALATbpIUAzTK73X3AYOWS2na jkEwBxQu08hwxmr0yw&t=1&usg=__ohMNxUXWK2zq_wFgnTlLzIkh1O8=

ShelGame
09-12-2010, 04:33 PM
If by DOING you mean we can view them in D-cal (et al) and we have a chip burner.. hehe then i guess we are doing.

We actually need some help from you on one we burned for another car, seems to hit launch limiter no matter what we do in the cal flags.. will PM you.

Mason, i googled ' i make it rain ' and this was the best result i think:
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT7Yxz6oALATbpIUAzTK73X3AYOWS2na jkEwBxQu08hwxmr0yw&t=1&usg=__ohMNxUXWK2zq_wFgnTlLzIkh1O8=

Well, worst case I can tell you how to modify the cal for the van to make the CCD bus. I thik it'd be cool if we could make it work. I have it in the back of my mind to do exactly what you guys did - swap the drivetrain out of my 89 and put it into a later model van (should be a much nicer ride). I'd have to do the same sort of computer changes you guys did. So, please post up what all you had to do to convert the van over to the '91 computer :).

Vigo
09-12-2010, 04:43 PM
So, please post up what all you had to do to convert the van over to the '91 computer .

Yeh Mason, if it only took you a week and a half to do it it should only take what..2 or 3 days to explain it, right? Whip us up some OEM-quality wiring diagrams for your new harness too! :p

The donor van here was an 89, not a 91 so it was not just converted to an older SBEC but actually to 89 SMEC.

I think what was done on this van was kind of above and beyond whats 'necessary' just to get the engine running because Mason merged the 95 power distribution center (relay and fuse box) with the old harness, eliminating all of the nasty old fusible links. I think he also kept the airbag sensors and stuff. If you were to skip that part, It wouldn't be much different than anything else.. adapting lighting connectors and making sure the bulkhead connector pinouts match up. The new van does still have the regular old 60-pin bulkhead connector.

StraX22
09-12-2010, 11:28 PM
The SBEC-I does actually have a CCD bus built in. I think it was added because the A604 iwas behind many of the 3.0's. But, they added the CCD bus code ot the turbo computers, too. Obvioulsy, the '90 vans didn't use the bus. But, you may only need to add the wires to the 60-way. It might also need some flags set in the ECU. I can try and walk you thru it if you guys are doing your own cals...

I actually added the appropriate wiring to the 60-way and the bulkhead. I just stole the purple/white twisted pair from the 95 harness. That would be great if you could help out seeing as how I know very little about the SMECs. One thing I like about the 95 setup is the use of a single two speed fan instead of the two fans in the older setup, it seems a lot more elegant.

StraX22
09-12-2010, 11:29 PM
Mason, i googled ' i make it rain ' and this was the best result i think:
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT7Yxz6oALATbpIUAzTK73X3AYOWS2na jkEwBxQu08hwxmr0yw&t=1&usg=__ohMNxUXWK2zq_wFgnTlLzIkh1O8=

lol for randomness :D

A.J.
09-12-2010, 11:53 PM
One thing I like about the 95 setup is the use of a single two speed fan instead of the two fans in the older setup, it seems a lot more elegant.

I think that's a POS design. I've run into a few where the fan shaft gouges the plastic fan blade and makes it unusable. If you ever have to take the fan blade off, have another on hand because if it's damaged and you take it apart you won't be able to put it back together again.

You can buy just the fan blade, you have to buy the whole assembly. I could be wrong on this but I haven't been able to source one so if someone else has, please post up. The ones in the junk yard are usually toast also.

A.J.

turbovanman²
09-13-2010, 01:08 AM
(should be a much nicer ride).

Not sure why you would think this Rob, it uses exactly the same suspension.


I think that's a POS design. I've run into a few where the fan shaft gouges the plastic fan blade and makes it unusable. If you ever have to take the fan blade off, have another on hand because if it's damaged and you take it apart you won't be able to put it back together again.

You can buy just the fan blade, you have to buy the whole assembly. I could be wrong on this but I haven't been able to source one so if someone else has, please post up. The ones in the junk yard are usually toast also.

A.J.

Luckily I have a few suppliers to get this part-the whole assembly, and its very reasonable.

oldyeller
09-13-2010, 01:21 AM
So what your saying for what I am doing is just lights, horn, crusie control, turn sig and all that? I took a look at both fuse panels and each spot has the same name and fuse so I think between my cars its the same! Also since its a 4 bannger to a 4 bannger. Next summer I would like to wire in the air bags. How did you do this? Do they have there own computer under the dash like I thought?
So everything in the van is pretty much working like a clock?

I got all the diagrams from alldata for both cars but is it posiable for someone to simplyfy it for me like yellow wire to blue and stuff like that?

A.J.
09-13-2010, 08:38 PM
Luckily I have a few suppliers to get this part-the whole assembly, and its very reasonable.

I'm looking at it like a typical penny pinching TMer. The fan shroud and blade should be good forever and the motor is the only thing that ever needs replacing. But with the '95 assembly, it's usually the blade that goes first.

A.J.

ShelGame
09-13-2010, 09:22 PM
Not sure why you would think this Rob, it uses exactly the same suspension.


I meant 'nice ride' as in 'nice car'. Not in terms of ride quality.

Though, I bet the 2nd gens are much quieter inside with the firewall sound deadening and other interior enhancements...

turbovanman²
09-13-2010, 09:25 PM
I meant 'nice ride' as in 'nice car'. Not in terms of ride quality.

Though, I bet the 2nd gens are much quieter inside with the firewall sound deadening and other interior enhancements...

Ahh and agreed, the 2nd gen's are much quieter inside. Example, look at the firewall blanket in one of his pics.

StraX22
09-13-2010, 10:24 PM
So what your saying for what I am doing is just lights, horn, crusie control, turn sig and all that? I took a look at both fuse panels and each spot has the same name and fuse so I think between my cars its the same! Also since its a 4 bannger to a 4 bannger. Next summer I would like to wire in the air bags. How did you do this? Do they have there own computer under the dash like I thought?
So everything in the van is pretty much working like a clock?

I got all the diagrams from alldata for both cars but is it posiable for someone to simplyfy it for me like yellow wire to blue and stuff like that?

Yes, on the 95 the airbag system is totally separate from the engine systems AFAIK. If you look at the wire color codes, Chrysler was pretty good about keeping the colors to function identical in these years.
I found the connector views for all of the equipment the most valuable for matching up color to function. On the Alldata site they are located under Diagrams >> Connector views. There's no easy way for me to sum it up because I just went one wire at a time without documenting anything other than checking off the wires that I spliced and the occasional notes on the Alldata pin outs. It also makes a lot more sense when you have both harnesses physically in front of you instead of looking at just the printouts by themselves.

If you encounter any specific trouble spots I'll be glad to help.

StraX22
09-13-2010, 10:26 PM
Ahh and agreed, the 2nd gen's are much quieter inside. Example, look at the firewall blanket in one of his pics.

Heh, it was like being inside of a soundproof room the first time I was in it while it was being pushed. I still need to get more time behind the wheel before I see how it really is.

turbovanman²
09-14-2010, 12:14 AM
Heh, it was like being inside of a soundproof room the first time I was in it while it was being pushed. I still need to get more time behind the wheel before I see how it really is.

Nice, I should dissect a 2nd Gen at the wreckers and see what they used-might be able to use it. I was going to do mine with a Dynamat copy but just don't have the time or money right now, :(

oldyeller
09-14-2010, 01:18 AM
Turbovanman You mean like a cheaper but pretty much the same thing when you say Dynamat copy?

oldyeller
09-14-2010, 01:19 AM
[QUOTE=

If you encounter any specific trouble spots I'll be glad to help.[/QUOTE]



Thanks! I will be asking dont you worry!;)

StraX22
09-14-2010, 09:42 AM
Nice, I should dissect a 2nd Gen at the wreckers and see what they used-might be able to use it. I was going to do mine with a Dynamat copy but just don't have the time or money right now, :(

Aside from the fiberglass padding in the engine compartment it seems to have a thicker jute carpet padding that's even doubled up in some spots, and an actual sound deadening material on the inner door skin instead of just a sheet of plastic. Unfortunately I had to remove the sheets inside the front doors because they crumbled to bits when I went in there to remove the aftermarket power windows.

For non-Dynamat Dynamat the last stuff I used was B-Quiet Extreme ( http://www.b-quiet.com/extreme.html ). We used a lot of it in the car we took to USAC world finals. The only exception is that I would not recommend it for roof use!

oldyeller
09-14-2010, 10:43 AM
StarX22 was the wiring the same in the sence of this red and yellow wire for high beams on the 89 was the same red and yellow wire on the 95? Cuz with my harness' what I can see is that my 94 has a few less wires going into the cabin then the 89.


Also why not on the roof? To heavy? What would you recomend for the roof?

Vigo
09-14-2010, 01:08 PM
Any adhesive that sticks directly to the metal of the roof has to be EXTREMELY heat resistant.. that could be part of it. Usually any kind of peel-and-stick adhesive melts pretty easily.

turbovanman²
09-14-2010, 01:17 PM
Turbovanman You mean like a cheaper but pretty much the same thing when you say Dynamat copy?

Yes, we have a thread on some of the different brands.


Aside from the fiberglass padding in the engine compartment it seems to have a thicker jute carpet padding that's even doubled up in some spots, and an actual sound deadening material on the inner door skin instead of just a sheet of plastic. Unfortunately I had to remove the sheets inside the front doors because they crumbled to bits when I went in there to remove the aftermarket power windows.

For non-Dynamat Dynamat the last stuff I used was B-Quiet Extreme ( http://www.b-quiet.com/extreme.html ). We used a lot of it in the car we took to USAC world finals. The only exception is that I would not recommend it for roof use!

Thanks, I'll check that stuff out.


Any adhesive that sticks directly to the metal of the roof has to be EXTREMELY heat resistant.. that could be part of it. Usually any kind of peel-and-stick adhesive melts pretty easily.

They give specs on melting point and they say its ok for roof use etc.

StraX22
09-14-2010, 02:21 PM
StarX22 was the wiring the same in the sence of this red and yellow wire for high beams on the 89 was the same red and yellow wire on the 95? Cuz with my harness' what I can see is that my 94 has a few less wires going into the cabin then the 89.


Also why not on the roof? To heavy? What would you recomend for the roof?

On the 89, they use violet for the low beams and red for the high beams. On the 95, it's red/orange for the high beams and violet and violet/red for the low beams. The major difference between the two is the way they're fused. The left and right low beams are fused individually at the fuse panel inside the cabin. Violet is for your left headlamp and violet/red is for the right headlamp. The high beams are still grouped together.

The B-Quiet extreme uses an asphalt type adhesive which is incredibly sticky but in the Texas sun it can soften up and peel off an upside down surface. They have products that are specifically made for roof applications.

oldyeller
09-15-2010, 03:18 AM
Cant you use something like an under carpet sound deadining foam or soft Umm "stuff"?

Thanks Strax 22 Ill take a look at the wireing tmrw!


Motors in!! :)

Vigo
09-15-2010, 12:58 PM
Oldyeller if you already got a motor in i think you should start a thread in this section and post up some pictures!

oldyeller
09-15-2010, 05:09 PM
Hmmm ok I did not document it that well I just have a lot of close up pics and stuff like tha to remind me where stuff goes. Where should I post? And yes I will take your edvise! :)

Back on topic lol
So how is the van running? What are the rpms at at highway speeds now that its a 5speed?
I wonder how many MPG you will get now.

Vigo
09-16-2010, 01:12 AM
I am pretty sure the odometer is not functioning since the speedo is not, and the factory instrument cluster does not have a tach... However with my knowledge of MATHEMATICALS ( :p ) i have calculated that with a 3.85fd a568 and 205/55r16 tires, it will do about 2600 rpm at 70mph and 3000rpm at 80.

Anyway, just take some pictures of your van, or whatever you have, and post a new thread in this section (project log section) stating what you've done to it and what you plan to do. That way people will have an easier time finding your info and and this project log does not turn into a 'help' thread that would really belong in another section. Im anxious to see your project!

oldyeller
09-16-2010, 10:14 PM
Ok perfict thanks vigo I hope I did not over ask on this guys thread! :( And yes I will this weekend with pics!)

So wait thats a lower ride tire no 205/55r16, I was planing on 205,65r15 for that good old gas milage so does it have enough power in 5th gear on the highway?


Also when does full boost kick in and how many pounds are you pushing again?

turbovanman²
09-16-2010, 11:11 PM
225/50 is a good size, fills up the fender wells, I run 225/55R16 to exercise the rpm demons on the highway, plus they fill up the fender a bit better. 205/55 is a small tire.

Vigo
09-17-2010, 12:42 AM
A little small for the van, to some.. i dont think Mason's van looks bad as it is.

Tire sizes is a WHOLE conversation in itself but in this case i definitely think a taller tire could get an extra mpg or two.. these motors can easily handle cruising a bit over 2000 rpm at 70 if you got the gearing to get them in that spot.. It's easier with the 3.50 fd trans or even a 2.60 fd auto.

turbovanman²
09-17-2010, 01:11 AM
A little small for the van, to some.. i dont think Mason's van looks bad as it is.

Tire sizes is a WHOLE conversation in itself but in this case i definitely think a taller tire could get an extra mpg or two.. these motors can easily handle cruising a bit over 2000 rpm at 70 if you got the gearing to get them in that spot.. It's easier with the 3.50 fd trans or even a 2.60 fd auto.

2.60 final drive and 225/55R16's is still around 3400-3600 at 70 mph, :(

Vigo
09-17-2010, 01:53 AM
That's in your converter, though.. Because if you run the numbers in a gearing calculator that gearing and tire diameter should only be doing 2400 at 70. Have you hooked up your lockup converter yet?

turbovanman²
09-17-2010, 02:22 AM
That's in your converter, though.. Because if you run the numbers in a gearing calculator that gearing and tire diameter should only be doing 2400 at 70. Have you hooked up your lockup converter yet?

The numbers lie, its not even close to that, I've driven TBI cars/vans and every auto is in the 3000's on the highway.

If I get time in the next few days, I'll quickly hook it up to a toggle switch and see what happens.

oldyeller
09-17-2010, 02:53 PM
You have only tried the 3 speeds I am guess! :P

Vigo
09-17-2010, 11:16 PM
The numbers lie, its not even close to that, I've driven TBI cars/vans and every auto is in the 3000's on the highway.

yes BUT no FACTORY setup has the 2.6fd and VERY few have ~26 inch tires as you do. Most have 3.02 ratio and 24.X" tires.. The numbers dont lie, if your converter is locked up and nothing is slipping the RPM will be very close to the calculated numbers.. unless your factory tach is off.

turbovanman²
09-18-2010, 02:14 PM
yes BUT no FACTORY setup has the 2.6fd and VERY few have ~26 inch tires as you do. Most have 3.02 ratio and 24.X" tires.. The numbers dont lie, if your converter is locked up and nothing is slipping the RPM will be very close to the calculated numbers.. unless your factory tach is off.

Even with the 2.6, its still deep in the 3000's. Now back to the 3.05, its almost 4000 rpm with the same 225/55R16 tires.

I am going to do a temp switch today and see how much the rpm drops, I am going to assume at least 500 due to the slippage I figure it has.

Reaper1
09-18-2010, 10:27 PM
Neat project! :thumb: :thumb:

turbovanman²
09-18-2010, 10:31 PM
Limited testing, LU drops me 400 rpm, :thumb:

oldyeller
09-18-2010, 10:36 PM
on the 3speeds? so its like 2700rpms or so?

Vigo
09-19-2010, 07:05 AM
If there is no slip in the TC clutch or the clutch elements applied in the trans, your RPM number WILL match what the math shows. Period. There is no voodoo between the motor and the ground that will add 1000 rpm to the numbers.. Whether or not your tach is lying to you, is something else. Whether you have the right speedo gear for your tire diameter, is something else.. but the ratios themselves are set in the stone and if nothing is slipping you should get ~2400 rpm at 70mph. Maybe try scanner rpm and GPS mph. :p

So i drove this green van today.. and at 70mph, its at 2400 rpm, just like i calculated.. Amazing!:amen:


on the 3speeds? so its like 2700rpms or so?

Turbovanman has the 3spd in his van so thats what we're talking about in this case.

oldyeller
09-19-2010, 06:50 PM
So i drove this green van today.. and at 70mph, its at 2400 rpm, just like i calculated.. Amazing!:amen:



Turbovanman has the 3spd in his van so thats what we're talking about in this case.

Wait thats your 5speed right in the van? Thats a pretty good number!:thumb: Hmmm how much MPG you think you will get outta her with that kinda rpm?

ShelGame
09-19-2010, 09:04 PM
So, when do you try it with the LU code in the SMEC Simon? If you want to try some custom stuff once you get it working, let me know. I'm sure we can do something fun with it...

turbovanman²
09-19-2010, 09:09 PM
If there is no slip in the TC clutch or the clutch elements applied in the trans, your RPM number WILL match what the math shows. Period. There is no voodoo between the motor and the ground that will add 1000 rpm to the numbers.. Whether or not your tach is lying to you, is something else. Whether you have the right speedo gear for your tire diameter, is something else.. but the ratios themselves are set in the stone and if nothing is slipping you should get ~2400 rpm at 70mph. Maybe try scanner rpm and GPS mph. :p

So i drove this green van today.. and at 70mph, its at 2400 rpm, just like i calculated.. Amazing!:amen:



Turbovanman has the 3spd in his van so thats what we're talking about in this case.

Well your van is special, math does lie. I'll say it again, I've driven many a 3speed and they are all 3000+ on the highway, no LU. My tach is bang on, speedo is accurate.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=52852


So, when do you try it with the LU code in the SMEC Simon? If you want to try some custom stuff once you get it working, let me know. I'm sure we can do something fun with it...

Yeah, I'll hit you up, just using a toggle switch right now, need to find the some more wiring and a part throttle unlock solenoid.

Vigo
09-20-2010, 12:48 AM
Wait thats your 5speed right in the van? Thats a pretty good number! Hmmm how much MPG you think you will get outta her with that kinda rpm?

Not my van/5spd, talking about the green van that is the subject of this thread. I dont own it, i just helped build it and have driven it.

As far as mpg, I dont know. The green van has not been through a full tank of gas as of yet. I also have a turbo/5spd van (a blue '90 model) but it has not been 'legal' since i converted it and only has a few miles on it because of that. When it was a TBI van it avg'd 27 mpg. I did not change the gearing or anything else about the van so when i do get some mileage numbers any difference from the previous 27 should be directly attributable to the turbo swap.


Well your van is special, math does lie.

If your numbers dont match the calculations you should find out why instead of implying that 1+1=3.:confused:

Reaper1
09-20-2010, 01:44 AM
Well your van is special, math does lie. I'll say it again, I've driven many a 3speed and they are all 3000+ on the highway, no LU. My tach is bang on, speedo is accurate.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=52852



Yeah, I'll hit you up, just using a toggle switch right now, need to find the some more wiring and a part throttle unlock solenoid.

I've owned and driven extensively 3 3-speed cars (1 van, 1 'Baron, 1 Laser), 1 4-speed car (90 Daytona), and 3 5-speed cars (92 Shadow V6, 88 Ford T-bird Turbo Coupe, 88 Shelby Z). I've NEVER had math lie about the gearing and rpm. It's simple geometry if everything is working the way it's supposed to and not slipping or is reading correctly.

ALL of the 3-speed cars had high rpm's on the highway. The 'Baron was around 2800@60 and 3500@70 IIRC! The Laser was the same way. I changed the transfer gears on the 'Baron (same trans was in my van) to the .91 set and it made a nice difference. The numbers I just quoted were for stock tire sizes.

The 4-speed was 3000rpm@90. IIRC it was around 2500@70 and 2000@60. It's been a LONG time since I've driven that car though.

My 5-speed cars have all been dead on the money. I've even been able to predict my rpm and speed based on gearing, rpm, and tire size. It's dead on every time.

I will say that if you are relaying on the factory tach in the van...it's probably off. They weren't that good to begin with, and I'm sure age has taken its tole.

...just sayin' :amen:

StraX22
09-20-2010, 09:15 AM
More from this weekend!

Adam fixed my wipers for me, I wired the van to use the VNT Daytona gauge cluster, replaced both outer and one inner tie rod, pulled the clock spring out of the 'tona, and bought a hitch ball!

Here's what I did to the shifter to make up for the lack of the proper shifter mount in the van.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01404Medium.jpg

Stripping the Daytona :(

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01411Medium.jpg

Mega wiper bushing replacing action!

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01413Medium.jpg

Rebuilding the 'tona cluster before installing. I re-soldered all the pins, cleaned the silver plated traces with some fine steel wool, cleaned the light bulbs, and re-assembled with a heaping helping of Deoxit.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01415Medium.jpg

I still need to do a bit of Dremel and Duramix action to make it fit perfectly with the van bezel. The speedo and tach work great although for some reason the odometer isn't functioning. I'll have to dig a bit deeper for that. The fuel gauge appears to work but the oil press and coolant temp are having trouble. For those I just tapped the wires going to the BCM and I think it might be pulling the signal down. I'm going to try pulling those pins out of the BCM connector and see if it changes anything.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01419Medium.jpg

Tada! :love:

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/DSC01416Medium.jpg

The highway manners are astounding, it makes me miss my Spirit R/T a bit. I was going to use Adam's nifty 4x8 utility trailer to help the GF move but halfway through the 45 minute drive the axle on it decided to let loose. I couldn't even tell something was wrong until I noticed all the smoke. It was just a minor annoyance and it all looks repairable.
So the van can tow a 300(ish) pound trailer no problem.

oldyeller
09-20-2010, 11:46 AM
What happen to the axle??? :O Also if its not cable drivin isent the odomiter run by an electric motor? That needs power going to it? At least thats what I think, should something like that.

NICE PICS nad let us know about the cluster and what happens and also about the axle I wanna know why she went. Cant just swap one out from the daytona?

StraX22
09-20-2010, 12:30 PM
lol, it was the axle on the trailer, not the van... or else I would be way more upset! The thing had two U bolts holding the axle to the leaf spring with just regular nuts and lock washers. You can bet that's gonna change!

As for the odometer, it is electric and it appears to be driven off of the same motor that runs the speedometer. I'm thinking there's something jibbered up in the gears that drive the digits because the reset button for the trip meter is kinda crunchy.

turbovanman²
09-20-2010, 01:18 PM
I've owned and driven extensively 3 3-speed cars (1 van, 1 'Baron, 1 Laser), 1 4-speed car (90 Daytona), and 3 5-speed cars (92 Shadow V6, 88 Ford T-bird Turbo Coupe, 88 Shelby Z). I've NEVER had math lie about the gearing and rpm. It's simple geometry if everything is working the way it's supposed to and not slipping or is reading correctly.

ALL of the 3-speed cars had high rpm's on the highway. The 'Baron was around 2800@60 and 3500@70 IIRC! The Laser was the same way. I changed the transfer gears on the 'Baron (same trans was in my van) to the .91 set and it made a nice difference. The numbers I just quoted were for stock tire sizes.

The 4-speed was 3000rpm@90. IIRC it was around 2500@70 and 2000@60. It's been a LONG time since I've driven that car though.

My 5-speed cars have all been dead on the money. I've even been able to predict my rpm and speed based on gearing, rpm, and tire size. It's dead on every time.

I will say that if you are relaying on the factory tach in the van...it's probably off. They weren't that good to begin with, and I'm sure age has taken its tole.

...just sayin' :amen:

Your agreeing with my numbers, so WTF? :confused: Yes, I'd say the stock tach isn't deadly accurate, maybe 200 off but not 1000 rpm that Vigo is saying.

Vigo has this thing about 2500 rpm at 70 mph? Just sayin....







The highway manners are astounding, it makes me miss my Spirit R/T a bit. I was going to use Adam's nifty 4x8 utility trailer to help the GF move but halfway through the 45 minute drive the axle on it decided to let loose. I couldn't even tell something was wrong until I noticed all the smoke. It was just a minor annoyance and it all looks repairable.
So the van can tow a 300(ish) pound trailer no problem.


What don't you like about it? Stock are terrible though, they pitch and wobble, lol. :confused:

StraX22
09-20-2010, 01:41 PM
What don't you like about it? Stock are terrible though, they pitch and wobble, lol. :confused:

There's nothing I don't like about it! Just reminiscing of times past.
Yeah right now the van is a total boat. The rear sway bar and perhaps some Daytona Shelby springs will help.

oldyeller
09-20-2010, 05:31 PM
There's nothing I don't like about it! Just reminiscing of times past.
Yeah right now the van is a total boat. The rear sway bar and perhaps some Daytona Shelby springs will help.

Hhahahah its a van leave it all soft and comffy!! Dont want to harsh a ride!
:D

StraX22
09-21-2010, 12:38 AM
I was right! Pulled the pins for the oil pressure sender and the coolant temperature sender out of the BCM harness and all is well. Still no odometer though, I'll have to take apart the complexity that is the speedo for that one...
Also, rebuilt the drivers side door latch and re-positioned the striker. It now closes as it should and the door switch for the dome lights works!

oldyeller
09-21-2010, 01:04 AM
Be carful when takin those speedos appart, they are made to break when and if someone is messing with them and they are made to pretty much go togethere once so just take ya time! Take pics for the rest of us!! :D hehehe

turbovanman²
09-21-2010, 02:04 AM
There's nothing I don't like about it! Just reminiscing of times past.
Yeah right now the van is a total boat. The rear sway bar and perhaps some Daytona Shelby springs will help.

For sure, the sway bar will help stop it from pitching into the corners. Don't lower it more than 1 inch if you use the stock van struts-

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/vbarticles.php?do=article&articleid=156


Hhahahah its a van leave it all soft and comffy!! Dont want to harsh a ride!
:D

Bah, I love the ride of my van, its firm but not too harsh.


I was right! Pulled the pins for the oil pressure sender and the coolant temperature sender out of the BCM harness and all is well. Still no odometer though, I'll have to take apart the complexity that is the speedo for that one...
Also, rebuilt the drivers side door latch and re-positioned the striker. It now closes as it should and the door switch for the dome lights works!

Sweet, :thumb:

Reaper1
09-21-2010, 04:49 PM
The odo on those clusters are driven by a small motor inside the speedo/odo assembly. The gears are basically the same as the older versions, so usually it's a small platic planetary gear that has disintigrated over time that is driven by the odo motor. There was a guy in the net that sold new gears made out of a better material, but they were like $30.

To get to the odo you have to take the face of the speedo off because that's where the mounting screws are. To do that you have to take the needle off the speedo. Once you've gotten it all fixed up, then you have to find a suitible glue to hold the face back on the speedo and put the needle back on. I found the best way to do that was to follow a friend at different known speeds, leave the clear face off the cluster and adjust the needle as needed. Just be sure to have the windows up as wind seems to mess with the reading of the needle! LOL (BTW, that was before GPS was really prevalent, so a TomTom could probably be the most help now).

Simon, I didn't realize you were still running the stock transfer gears. I thought you'd changed them to the .91's. Sorry for the missunderstanding.

turbovanman²
09-21-2010, 05:01 PM
Simon, I didn't realize you were still running the stock transfer gears. I thought you'd changed them to the .91's. Sorry for the missunderstanding.

I put them back in on this build, I wanted to use 3rd at the track and get out of the hole faster. I think they lowered my rpm by about 300.

Reaper1
09-23-2010, 04:52 PM
Ah...ok! :thumb:

Vigo
10-01-2010, 02:29 AM
So the van can tow a 300(ish) pound trailer no problem.

Last i knew it towed this ~3900 lb combo without breaking down or crashing..

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02386Large.jpg

Reaper1
10-01-2010, 10:27 AM
Looks like a V8 Taurus SHO...

StraX22
10-01-2010, 10:42 AM
Looks like a V8 Taurus SHO...

That's exactly what it is. For $500 I figured it would be useful for upgrading my 4th gen Taurus. V8 TT swap anyone? :evil: (More like soon to be broken AX4N)

I'm not gonna lie, it was a little scary towing it. At one point a bicyclist decided to stop in the middle of a 45mph road. The brakes were locked up on that one. Getting going from a stop was also interesting, couldn't give it too much gas or else it would just do a mid 1st gear burnout.

I need to take some pictures and post up about the 160A Durango alternator install and the power lock actuator install from the Daytona.

Reaper1
10-01-2010, 04:22 PM
Yeah, I'm interested i the alternator thing. I've known about it for a while, but I want to know exactly what's invovled. I looked at the physical part at work, and it looks just like a Nippondenso swap, but I don't know if there's anything else to be on the lookout for. I know I want to upgrade the power wire going to the battery on my car at some point. I personally think it's too small!

StraX22
10-29-2010, 03:34 PM
It's been a while so I thought I ought to post up the pics from the speedo dis assembly. During this whole thing I broke the shaft that the needle rides on, so I found another cluster in the JYard for around $20. Reaper1 was 100% correct that the gears are causing the problem. The speedos were made by VDO and they seemed to use a crappy sort of waxy plastic to mold the gears. I bit the bullet and bought new ones from http://www.odometergears.com/ .

My cluttered workbench! I used a function generator to simulate the speed distance input, works like a charm.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/IMGA0089Medium.jpg
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/IMGA0088Medium.jpg

Here is the assembly

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/IMGA0091Medium.jpg

It had a leaky electrolytic cap that had caused a bit of corrosion. Out of two other clusters I looked at, this cap was bad.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/IMGA0092Medium.jpg
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/IMGA0101Medium.jpg

Started by removing the galvanometer (?) that drives the needle. No surprises here other than the broken needle shaft because I wasn't careful enough.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/IMGA0093Medium.jpg
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/IMGA0094Medium.jpg
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/IMGA0095Medium.jpg
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/IMGA0096Medium.jpg

The motor that drives the odometer was blocked by a molded in light guide. Instead of whipping out the Dremel, I decided to do it the right way. The gauge face peeled off without any problems. I'll be using a few thin dabs of E6000 to re-attach it later.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/IMGA0098Medium.jpg
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/IMGA0099Medium.jpg
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/IMGA0100Medium.jpg

I haven't yet got around to installing the new gears but I will post pics as soon as I do.

Dave
10-29-2010, 08:11 PM
:eek: Jesus dude! Impressive how much you know!

Vigo
10-30-2010, 02:08 AM
Jesus dude! Impressive how much you know!

Oh yeah well i put a cooler tailpipe on it todayhttp://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/index.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/images.jpg

Vigo
11-07-2010, 02:20 AM
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02566Large.jpg
Here's that tailpipe i put on. Its a stocker turbovan dual tip that Mason polished up.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02569Large.jpg
Mason finished up the daytona cluster install today. Used the clear face bezel off the original van cluster and it came out looking pretty factory. I didnt get a good pic of the finished product, i was slacking.. :(
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02570Large.jpg
Then we took it to the NEXT LEVEL!!
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/764px-Over9000exploitable.jpg

MSpaint to amuse myself.:lol:

StraX22
11-08-2010, 11:38 PM
lol mspaint!

RoadWarrior222
11-09-2010, 09:18 AM
StraX22, tyvm for that little tutorial, most interesting. Now I wish I had a signal generator so I could calibrate my tach...... not that I realllllly need it with an auto...

RoadWarrior222
11-09-2010, 09:20 AM
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02566Large.jpg

Hey, what tires are those? They look almost like the Nexen CP661 I've got on my Voyager. (215/60/r15 on pumpers)

Vigo
11-09-2010, 02:40 PM
Nexen N5000

RoadWarrior222
11-09-2010, 04:45 PM
Damn, I wanted to be twins.

StraX22
11-09-2010, 11:09 PM
StraX22, tyvm for that little tutorial, most interesting. Now I wish I had a signal generator so I could calibrate my tach...... not that I realllllly need it with an auto...

I didn't dig into the tach all that much but I plan to soon out of curiosity and to see if it is indeed as inaccurate as people say. it looks like that the factory controller has a fair amount of adjustment.

StraX22
11-18-2010, 06:46 PM
Gas mileage update!

The first tank I checked with the newly working odometer got 23 (rounded up) MPG. Not bad considering I drove it with no concern for fuel economy, and rarely obeyed speed limits on the highway.

StraX22
11-18-2010, 08:27 PM
Okay, I have a confession to make. Instead of pulling the whole motor assembly off the face plate, I just broke off the offending light guide with a pair of side cutters. I did not want to risk breaking another speedo and it doesn't make much difference at night. Also pictured is the replacement cap. I did not have a direct replacement so I made one with a higher capacitance and voltage tolerance fit.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/IMGA0125Medium.jpg

Did I mention my dash lights were intermittent? I went through the entire system trying to find the problem. I even went so far as to disassemble and test the slide potentiometer in the headlight switch cluster. All of the correct voltages were present including the 5v control voltage. It's gotta be something in the BCM. For now I just bypassed the dimmer by jumpering the gauge lights to the "headlight on" signal wire.

Here's the inside of the body control module. That TO-220 device with the large heat sink is the FET that actually does the dimming for the instrument panel lights. I just seems needlessly overcomplicated and silly compared to the old fashioned rheostat on the back of the switch!

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/IMGA0127Medium.jpg

And the backside with various discrete surface mount parts

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/IMGA0128Medium.jpg

turbovanman²
11-18-2010, 08:28 PM
Not bad at all.

How many liters to fill from empty?


Wow, that's alot of crap for a dimmer circuit, :confused:

Reaper1
11-18-2010, 11:39 PM
You gotta remember that the BCM controls other thigns too, like the door locks, dinger, light dimmer, it interprets some signals from the SBEC and possibly the TCM, it has the CCD going through it...all kinds of stuff. It's no wonder they become kind of finiky at their old age! LOL

StraX22
11-19-2010, 09:17 AM
Not bad at all.

How many liters to fill from empty?


Wow, that's alot of crap for a dimmer circuit, :confused:


It usually takes 11-12 gallons (42-45 liters) to fill up when the gauge is on E.

turbovanman²
11-20-2010, 06:11 PM
It usually takes 11-12 gallons (42-45 liters) to fill up when the gauge is on E.

Wow, that's small, mines 60 litres or 16 gallons.

Vigo
11-21-2010, 12:50 PM
Yeh theres gotta be something going on there because as far as i know there were only 16 and 20 gallon tanks.

StraX22
11-22-2010, 01:34 PM
Yeh theres gotta be something going on there because as far as i know there were only 16 and 20 gallon tanks.

Yeah, what's going on is that I don't trust the fuel gauge 100% yet. So far the furthest I've run it out is 14 gal and it was on E for a while.

Saturday, re-assembled the driver's side dash, replaced the starter, and installed the factory rear sway bar.
The sway bar does make a noticeable difference, nothing earth shattering, but noticeable. The whole van feels more stable. I was able to use the factory nuts in the frame rail, and I used 2 3/4" exhaust clamps for the axle mounts. Had to spread out the bushing retainer a teeny bit for it to slide on to the clamp. All and all it was very easy and worth the $30 or so.

turbovanman²
11-22-2010, 02:57 PM
Yeah, what's going on is that I don't trust the fuel gauge 100% yet. So far the furthest I've run it out is 14 gal and it was on E for a while.

Saturday, re-assembled the driver's side dash, replaced the starter, and installed the factory rear sway bar.
The sway bar does make a noticeable difference, nothing earth shattering, but noticeable. The whole van feels more stable. I was able to use the factory nuts in the frame rail, and I used 2 3/4" exhaust clamps for the axle mounts. Had to spread out the bushing retainer a teeny bit for it to slide on to the clamp. All and all it was very easy and worth the $30 or so.

I usually get panicky when the fuel light comes on, last time it was flickering in corners and on the brakes, took 16 gallons to fill it, I've put 17 in before.

2nd gen vans are lucky, you have the nuts in the frame rails for the sway bar.

Vigo
11-22-2010, 03:46 PM
2nd gen vans are lucky, you have the nuts in the frame rails for the sway bar.

Thats true, but anyone who has a drill, a welder, and 6 nuts can spend half an hour to get to the same place.

Most people would probably rather be doing that then jumping through all the wiring hoops to get a turbo 2nd gen.. :D

turbovanman²
11-22-2010, 03:57 PM
Thats true, but anyone who has a drill, a welder, and 6 nuts can spend half an hour to get to the same place.

Most people would probably rather be doing that then jumping through all the wiring hoops to get a turbo 2nd gen.. :D

Hahhha, that's true too. :p

RoadWarrior222
11-23-2010, 11:12 AM
I usually get panicky when the fuel light comes on.

I'm fairly sure mine has at least a gallon in it after the light is on. But I don't check that on a regular basis, I usually fill at a quarter.

Vigo
11-23-2010, 12:53 PM
Yeah, what's going on is that I don't trust the fuel gauge 100% yet. So far the furthest I've run it out is 14 gal and it was on E for a while.

That reminds me.. The only time i ever ran my van out of gas was right after i swapped the gauge cluster and got a different fuel gauge on it. I trusted it TOO much. So, not trusting at first is probably a good idea..

StraX22
11-28-2010, 01:48 AM
Here's some pics of the sway bar install and the assembled dash.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000026Medium.jpg

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000027Medium.jpg

The small rectangular display on the right is my Auber Instruments EGT gauge which I would highly recommend to everyone!! http://www.auberins.com/ Also check their eBay auctions for even better deals.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000028Medium.jpg

Vigo
11-28-2010, 02:05 AM
Your tire crane is lonely. Remind me to give you your spare tire back. :p

Reaper1
11-28-2010, 11:30 AM
I gotta say I never really liked the 2nd gen van dash...until now! That is dead sexy!

StraX22
12-07-2010, 11:45 PM
Not much to say about the van. Picked up a calibration from FWD, gathered up a bunch of inter cooler plumbing bits. Now I just need to mount the darned thing up! After returning from the thanksgiving holidays I noticed coolant was puking out of the water pump weep hole at an alarming rate. Replaced that, and now I just need to swap pulleys on the alternator due to belt alignment issues.

Also, got to help a friend out a bit on his Lancer project.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000087Medium.jpg

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000089Medium.jpg

glhs727
12-08-2010, 01:46 AM
Is that Bill's lancer?

turbovanman²
12-08-2010, 01:53 AM
Here's some pics of the sway bar install and the assembled dash.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000026Medium.jpg

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000027Medium.jpg



May I make a suggestion? You want the end links parallel when sitting, yours are at an angle, so I would rotate the sway bar down a bit to try. I simply moved my link brackets before welding, you don't have that luxury unless you wanted too.

Vigo
12-08-2010, 02:17 AM
Simon, How does the angle change anything?

burnt_toast
12-08-2010, 05:36 PM
One sweet looking van prj, big props yall :thumb:

Makes me crave turbo dodge again.. grr

StraX22
12-08-2010, 11:39 PM
Is that Bill's lancer?

Why yes it is. He's hoping to get it ready for Import Face-Off. http://www.importfaceoff.net/san_antonio.htm

I was wanting to do the same with the van but time may be an issue.

Vigo
12-09-2010, 12:35 AM
I saw the Lancer today.. its not gonna make import face-off, but i think it'll be ready for San Antonio Turbo Mopars Faceoff (which i just invented and conscripted you for). BE READY!!!!!!

turbovanman²
12-09-2010, 12:43 AM
Simon, How does the angle change anything?

It affects how the bar works, I was told this by a few suspension guys.

Johnny also mentions it when putting his sway bars in. If you look at OE, they are all parallel too.

Vigo
12-09-2010, 02:37 AM
Aww man, and here i was thinking that since the shocks were at a jaunty angle it must be best! :p

Vigo
12-13-2010, 03:50 PM
Well, in spite of being out of town all the time Mason still made time for TURBO VAN ACTION last weekend.

Started the intercooler install.

Previously we had noticed that his intercooler with its 4" core depth, was not going to fit in the front end without mods. I suggested moving the radiator/condenser back and notching the bumper support.

Turns out we only needed to move the radiator/condenser.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02656Large.jpg
Pile of parts we were mocking up with.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02659Large.jpg
Moved the lower mounts back an inch or so on both side.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02658Large.jpg
Easy.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02668Large.jpg
Spaced out the upper mounts with longer bolts and a piece of hose.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02661Large.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02662Large.jpg
Cut out the sides for charge piping. Nothing was in the way so it was pretty dang easy.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02666Large.jpg
Voila! Bumper support may get mods for airflow.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02667Large.jpg
I thought 4" core was FTL until i found out it wasnt that hard to fit. Now its FTW!!

Turns out the pile of pipes and couplers on the ground is actually probably 80+% of whats needed. Only a few more pieces of charge pipe stuff, some cutting and fitting, and it will be done.

turbovanman²
12-13-2010, 03:56 PM
Very cool, I like that full size condensor, :nod:

StraX22
01-13-2011, 01:18 PM
Bump from the dead!
Things have been crazy so progress on the van has been slow.

I wanted a little more space for the IC so I took a little off the front bumper. Also fabricated a couple of ghetto mounting brackets.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000137Medium.jpg

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000138Medium.jpg

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000139Medium.jpg

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000140Medium.jpg

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000141Medium.jpg

Also rigged up a newer style coil pack.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000142Medium.jpg

Other things that were done that I don't have pictures of include poly control arm bushings, new used front struts, and new axle seals.

StraX22
01-23-2011, 11:37 PM
Intercooler is operational!

All of these pieces must be enough!

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000271Medium.jpg

Perhaps some welding is in order. Had to fun the ground through a set of jumper cables to keep it from burning through on the "Low" setting.

Stock SS exhaust from a Scion TC FTW!

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000270Medium.jpg

Plus a parts store coupler

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000273Medium.jpg

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000272Medium.jpg

The the hose coming from the outlet of the compressor. A spare part from my long gone Spirit R/T came in handy.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000276Medium.jpg

1st. gen talon BOV

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000275Medium.jpg

Dang! I think this will work.......

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000274Medium.jpg

The finished product.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000278Medium.jpg
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000279Medium.jpg

Big thanks to Adam for putting of a timing belt on a Kia Sorento and Cindy at FWD for letting me steal some scrap piping.

I'm currently soaking a set of used +40s in Sea Foam prior to ultrasonic cleaning. After they're clean and the new filter baskets have been installed I'll finally boost over 11lbs.

Vigo
01-24-2011, 01:11 AM
It's kind of amazing how cleanly the piping turned out in the engine bay. The lower pipe is very inconspicuous and the upper pipe is fairly attractive. Almost everything out front will be nearly invisible behind the bumper cover.

Intercooling a van might be harder than a car, but you know.. its uhh.. worth it because vans are cooler. :D

That Kia was a pita.

11 psi is plenty enough to have fun as it is. I wouldnt be surprised if it ran 15s with good traction. It's trackable now, we should find out. Borrow Bill's slicks perhaps..

StraX22
02-01-2011, 11:21 PM
Thought I'd post up some pics of my injector cleaning setup and in-progress DIY flowbench.

First thing is to remove the filter baskets. I bought a few new ones from injector-rehab.com http://injector-rehab.com/shop/Bosch-EV1-Rebuild-Kit.html

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000312Medium.jpg

This is a simple little driver I threw together around a ULN2803. I added a LED to the output so I could visually verify the output. The connectors came from a 3.0 harness.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000301Medium.jpg

For a cleaning solution I used mostly distilled water with a small amount of simple green and a few drops of Kodak Photoflo as a surfacant.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000310Medium.jpg

the whole rig including an ultrasonic cleaner the GF got me for christmas.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000309Medium.jpg

Here's the parts for the flowbench. A log style fuel rail, 4 graduated cylinders, and a KIA fuel pump (not pictured).

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000311Medium.jpg

turbovanman²
02-02-2011, 02:11 AM
Very cool, like the injector cleaner setup. I have something similar but no sonic part, lol.

Reaper1
02-02-2011, 05:05 PM
I'm in electronics envy over here...

RoadWarrior222
02-02-2011, 05:28 PM
Hmmmmm somewhere here there's an ultrasonic jewelery cleaner I picked up for the wifey, but she's never used it.... bet it would fit an injector or two... it was an old one that was probably $$$ new and looks kinda industrial (compared to how they look now)

When I get a tuit, a round one, I was gonna pump mineral spirits back and forward through mine, but a blast from the ultrasound, and I could frequency double some Van Halen and hook it into the transducer, might loosen things up.

Vigo
02-02-2011, 05:59 PM
Soon +40s will be ready.. FTW!!

Also, the intercooler pipes got painted the front bumper cover is back on.
Here's the plumbing pre-paint.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02958Large.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02962Large.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02957Large.jpg
Also put on a 557 cam gear (was 690). It advanced the cam 4 degrees, so now the turbo spools faster.

Also put in poly rear shackle bushings and inboard rear swaybar bushings.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02959Large.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC02961Large.jpg

StraX22
02-02-2011, 09:35 PM
Hmmmmm somewhere here there's an ultrasonic jewelery cleaner I picked up for the wifey, but she's never used it.... bet it would fit an injector or two... it was an old one that was probably $$$ new and looks kinda industrial (compared to how they look now)

When I get a tuit, a round one, I was gonna pump mineral spirits back and forward through mine, but a blast from the ultrasound, and I could frequency double some Van Halen and hook it into the transducer, might loosen things up.

After that you can melt the brain of some poor 1950s teenager!

I went ahead and ordered a new +40 just in case, and to expedite things a bit.
I got a fever, and the only cure is more boost!


Also, I can't believe neither of us took a picture of the front with the bumper cover back on.

Vigo
02-06-2011, 12:23 AM
And....... here's a picture of a bumper cover. Stealthy spearco!
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03041Large.jpg
Got the +40s, 3 bar map, and FWD cal in it today. Also added like 80% more boost.:eyebrows:

glhs727
02-06-2011, 01:39 AM
And....... here's a picture of a bumper cover. Stealthy spearco!
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC03041Large.jpg
Got the +40s, 3 bar map, and FWD cal in it today. Also added like 80% more boost.:eyebrows:

That is pretty stealthy looking...... I would never guess it could be fast! can;t wait to see the results.

StraX22
02-09-2011, 02:44 PM
Ultimate sadness!!

Within minutes of installing the larger injectors and computer, the majority of the motor oil blew out of the PCV port.
The only parameter I was monitoring was EGT and compared to the stock computer and injectors the readings were around 100deg lower.
The next purchase is going to be a wideband for sure.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000316Medium.jpg
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000317Medium.jpg

These were NOS Mahle 2.5 turbo pistons.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000320Medium.jpg
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000321Medium.jpg
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000322Medium.jpg
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000326Medium.jpg

The cylinder head appears to be unscathed besides what appears to be buildup of molten aluminum. The used MP head gasket held up wonderfully. I need to check the impeller for the turbo to see if anything got through.

Perhaps it's a good time to change things around a bit.

The score:
Vans - 2
Engines - 2

turbovanman²
02-09-2011, 03:33 PM
Damn, :banghead: Your acting like me, stop it, lol. Bummer dude, good time to upgrade to forged though, seriously, worth the money.

Vigo
02-09-2011, 03:40 PM
The used MP head gasket held up wonderfully

Used headgaskets for the win! Spirit's on a used one, 18psi so far.

Im putting a used one on the vnt motor too. hehe.

This is probably a red herring and not helpful in the least but i noticed that where the two outer pistons failed is in the corners of the block that have the LEAST coolant flow (and probably run the hottest).


Damn, Your acting like me, stop it, lol.

At least this thing is so easy to work on.. if this were any of a 100 other kinds of motors it'd have taken all night (or more) and probably pissed us the hell off every step of the way. Gotta love the simplicity of the 8v:thumb:

RoadWarrior222
02-09-2011, 03:46 PM
Damn, :banghead: Your acting like me, stop it

That's siggable. :D

turbovanman²
02-09-2011, 04:00 PM
This is probably a red herring and not helpful in the least but i noticed that where the two outer pistons failed is in the corners of the block that have the LEAST coolant flow (and probably run the hottest).



That has little to do with it and remember, #1 has the most coolant flow, think of the where the pump outlet is? :p

He either leaned out or detonated or both. :(

---------- Post added at 12:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:00 PM ----------


That's siggable. :D

Your welcome, I take donations thru paypal, :p

Vigo
02-09-2011, 07:54 PM
That has little to do with it and remember, #1 has the most coolant flow, think of the where the pump outlet is?


Sure, i was just pointing out that those would be the hottest corners of the block, so it makes sense the pistons would fail there first. The pump outlet is in the front of that cylinder but the back corner is not between the pump and outlet (thermo), so it's in a similar situation to #4, which inspired the #4 cooling mod some people do. I agree it's not the root cause of anything.

glhs727
02-09-2011, 08:13 PM
Are you using a t-3 style water divertor? if not, do you think it would help?

I would like to see the side of the pistons at the top, take some more pictures when you get them out

Vigo
02-09-2011, 08:48 PM
Gotta wait for this darn Texas Cold Snap to get the hell out!! :p

turbovanman²
02-09-2011, 09:37 PM
Sure, i was just pointing out that those would be the hottest corners of the block, so it makes sense the pistons would fail there first. The pump outlet is in the front of that cylinder but the back corner is not between the pump and outlet (thermo), so it's in a similar situation to #4, which inspired the #4 cooling mod some people do. I agree it's not the root cause of anything.

Well still, the rear of #1 will not be stagnant or hot, remember the coolant goes in and will go straight back, then do its tricks etc.
Every piston I've seen fail always fails at the corners, maybe its due to the flame pattern? Not sure but even with different heads, swirl, G or TIII, I melt the corners.



Are you using a t-3 style water divertor? if not, do you think it would help?

I would like to see the side of the pistons at the top, take some more pictures when you get them out

3 digits posted about that and said it would work if you moved the thermostat housing to the end ala TIII.

RoadWarrior222
02-09-2011, 09:45 PM
Gotta wait for this darn Texas Cold Snap to get the hell out!! :p

How cold can it be there?

Just need a couple of these...
http://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/38435/6h/www.improvementscatalog.com/images/en_US/local/products/350x/heated-travel-mug-354403.jpg

Jam the penetrant in one and the brakeclean in the other and keep going, oh, and a wire brush on a cord round your neck to brush them off if they frost instead of evaporating.

Reaper1
02-09-2011, 10:19 PM
He leaned out AND detonatged. His EGT's were low because he was so lean. This would have contributed to detonation due to there not being enough fuel in the charge to cool it and promote even burn.

Vigo
02-09-2011, 10:28 PM
How cold can it be there?

eh, low 20s f most of the day today.


He leaned out AND detonatged. His EGT's were low because he was so lean. This would have contributed to detonation due to there not being enough fuel in the charge to cool it and promote even burn.

I think it's going back together with a fuel pressure gauge.. it'll be interesting to see what that turns up the first time out.

turbovanman²
02-10-2011, 02:50 PM
I think it's going back together with a fuel pressure gauge.. it'll be interesting to see what that turns up the first time out.


What, no AF gauge?

What pistons, forged or cast?

RoadWarrior222
02-10-2011, 10:52 PM
eh, low 20s f most of the day today.

Pffft, now THAT's a low dollar excuse... :D I was working on my car in the low teens today. :p

Vigo
02-11-2011, 01:14 AM
It got up to 40 something day and i was walking around in circles outside trying to find an excuse to be outside. I cant stand being indoors too long. The wind is really what was making the 20s suck so bad. Making my eyes water and all that. When i was fixing my frozen pipes in the little shed outside, it was blocking the wind and then 20f wasnt so so bad.

RoadWarrior222
02-11-2011, 08:26 AM
Just being a prick really, I don't plan on working below about 20 usually, metal starts acting weird, bolts snap easily... especially if it's been sitting at 0 or lower overnight... plus sticking to your wrenches is no fun, I have a hard time doing anything with gloves on.

Mopar318
02-11-2011, 08:36 AM
eh, low 20s f most of the day today.




Your spoiled! I would kill for a low 20's day during the winter to work on my cars. It has been close to -10 all this week, and that does not include the windchill.

Walked out this morning, and its about 12 degrees. Feels like summer!

Vigo
02-11-2011, 11:13 AM
You too can be spoiled if you move to texas... :p

turbovanman²
02-11-2011, 03:04 PM
It got up to 40 something day and i was walking around in circles outside trying to find an excuse to be outside. I cant stand being indoors too long. The wind is really what was making the 20s suck so bad. Making my eyes water and all that. When i was fixing my frozen pipes in the little shed outside, it was blocking the wind and then 20f wasnt so so bad.

Damn, I really hate the cold, tired of our winter here and its actually been pretty mild.

StraX22
02-15-2011, 12:10 PM
Carnage Pics!!!!

All four pistons are down for the count!
I uploaded them at 1024x768 to show detail

Piston Number 1

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000327Large.jpg
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000328Large.jpg
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000329Large.jpg

Piston Number 2

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000331Large.jpg

Piston Number 3

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000334Large.jpg

Piston Number 4

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000335Large.jpg
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000336Large.jpg

I'd like to apologize to everyone for ruining a somewhat rare set of NOS STD size 2.5 pistons.

Big things could be in the works real soon.

turbovanman²
02-21-2011, 04:19 AM
Carnage Pics!!!!


I'd like to apologize to everyone for ruining a somewhat rare set of NOS STD size 2.5 pistons.

Big things could be in the works real soon.

Sweet dude, :hail:

Detonation played a big part in that.

Like I said earlier, stop it, I am the minivan part destroying queen, :p

Vigo
02-21-2011, 09:14 PM
I hear rumor o some kinda BIG TURBO or sumptin' comin down the line. An' i like to be vague in this hurr old west dialec, harrumph.

StraX22
02-21-2011, 09:43 PM
Like I said earlier, stop it, I am the minivan part destroying queen, :p

I don't want to steal your clatter by any means. But we'll see how big of a bang the next setup is gonna give.


I hear rumor o some kinda BIG TURBO or sumptin' comin down the line. An' i like to be vague in this hurr old west dialec, harrumph.

I hear tell tha Venolia's are a comin' down all tha way from Californiaway for tha big hoedown. I wonder who's all else a gonna show? :evil:

oldyeller
02-22-2011, 02:08 AM
Hmmmm if you up the turbo does this mean your gonna needa be selling some sweet parts to help fund the new project??:partywoot::whip:??

turbovanman²
02-22-2011, 02:26 AM
I don't want to steal your clatter by any means. But we'll see how big of a bang the next setup is gonna give.

No worries, always room for another at the party, :partywoot:

StraX22
03-04-2011, 10:56 AM
Got a new toy in the mail the other day.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000342Medium.jpg

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000343Medium.jpg

It's not going on this round, instead I decided to max out the current setup as-is. When I do use it, my attack plan is as follows in no particular order.

Modify firewall
Make a flange and positioning adapter for the factory manifold
Install external wastegate on factory manifold
Rig up a microcontroller to control either a pneumatic or electric actuator based off of throttle position, engine RPM, turbine speed (using built-in electromagnetic sensor), and possibly others to keep it within it's optimal range.
Possibly use the existing motor drive by bypassing all the canbus garbage in the circuit.

I know the pros / cons have been discussed plenty in the past and I am well aware of them. I want to try it out because it's cheap and unusual and for better response in street driving applications.

Who knows, I might not ever get around to using it but it should provide a good exercise for the engineering muscles.


Hopefully this weekend I'll be able to hone out the cylinders and find out if the block needs to be bored out or not. I'm hoping not, because I have a set of standard size Venolia's ready to go on. Things have just been crazy go nuts busy.

turbovanman²
03-04-2011, 06:18 PM
Got a new toy in the mail the other day.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000342Medium.jpg

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000343Medium.jpg

It's not going on this round, instead I decided to max out the current setup as-is. When I do use it, my attack plan is as follows in no particular order.

Modify firewall
Make a flange and positioning adapter for the factory manifold
Install external wastegate on factory manifold
Rig up a microcontroller to control either a pneumatic or electric actuator based off of throttle position, engine RPM, turbine speed (using built-in electromagnetic sensor), and possibly others to keep it within it's optimal range.
Possibly use the existing motor drive by bypassing all the canbus garbage in the circuit.

I know the pros / cons have been discussed plenty in the past and I am well aware of them. I want to try it out because it's cheap and unusual and for better response in street driving applications.

Who knows, I might not ever get around to using it but it should provide a good exercise for the engineering muscles.


Hopefully this weekend I'll be able to hone out the cylinders and find out if the block needs to be bored out or not. I'm hoping not, because I have a set of standard size Venolia's ready to go on. Things have just been crazy go nuts busy.

Very cool. I have one of those too but I am going to sell it, just no use for it anymore.

There are controllers out there to control the VGT using TPS and Map, Fleece Performance.

I would build a header so that you can leave the firewall alone, but that's just me, lol.

1966 dart wagon
03-04-2011, 08:26 PM
Nice thread just read though it all, I like the interior and the daytona cluster looks funny with 3 pedals!

oldyeller
03-05-2011, 10:36 PM
Your gonna bored out the cylinders? You wanna over size the motor or i read wrong? Cuz you have a 2.2 right?

StraX22
03-05-2011, 11:13 PM
Your gonna bored out the cylinders? You wanna over size the motor or i read wrong? Cuz you have a 2.2 right?

It's a 2.5, looks like the old pistons scored the cylinder walls a little bit and I'm going to hone it out a bit to see if I can get rid of them while still staying in tolerance.

oldyeller
03-05-2011, 11:32 PM
WOW Thats gonna be one close hone! Gonna match it to the pistons or what?

And what happened that it scored the walls? Ran with no filter or someting likes that?

Vigo
03-05-2011, 11:36 PM
2 of the pistons partially melted. There are pictures of that a page back.

ShadowFromHell
03-06-2011, 12:17 AM
Got a new toy in the mail the other day.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000342Medium.jpg

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000343Medium.jpg

It's not going on this round, instead I decided to max out the current setup as-is. When I do use it, my attack plan is as follows in no particular order.

Modify firewall
Make a flange and positioning adapter for the factory manifold
Install external wastegate on factory manifold
Rig up a microcontroller to control either a pneumatic or electric actuator based off of throttle position, engine RPM, turbine speed (using built-in electromagnetic sensor), and possibly others to keep it within it's optimal range.
Possibly use the existing motor drive by bypassing all the canbus garbage in the circuit.

I know the pros / cons have been discussed plenty in the past and I am well aware of them. I want to try it out because it's cheap and unusual and for better response in street driving applications.

Who knows, I might not ever get around to using it but it should provide a good exercise for the engineering muscles.


Hopefully this weekend I'll be able to hone out the cylinders and find out if the block needs to be bored out or not. I'm hoping not, because I have a set of standard size Venolia's ready to go on. Things have just been crazy go nuts busy.

I snagged a couple of these while I was working at a dodge dealer. I dont think your going to get one to fit on the stock mani, I think its going to hit the intake. I think the only way to get one of these to fit on a 8v would be a over the tranny header or something similar. I know you have it in your hands, but those things are HUGE! Much larger then a "normal" holset, and from what I have read those are a pretty tight fit. But, more power to you! I would love to see how it works out on one of our motors!

turbovanman²
03-06-2011, 04:01 PM
Your gonna bored out the cylinders? You wanna over size the motor or i read wrong? Cuz you have a 2.2 right?

FYI, 2.2's and 2.5's share the same bore size, the difference is piston pin height and the crank.


I would love to see how it works out on one of our motors!

Someone has to do it soon, :nod:

Vigo
03-06-2011, 04:58 PM
Someone has to do it soon,

Best way to get it done soon will be to badger Strax22 endlessly in this thread! I'll help. :p

turbovanman²
03-06-2011, 07:02 PM
Best way to get it done soon will be to badger Strax22 endlessly in this thread! I'll help. :p


Ok, so I'll get on that bandwagon, GET ON IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ShadowFromHell
03-06-2011, 09:43 PM
I was just out in the garage sizing up the turbo on a CB I have on a stand, its going to have problems clearing the intake, and I didnt mock up a starter, but thats going to be close too. As for using this turbo, and adding a external gate I think its going to be next to impossible on the stock mani. A log header designed for it looks like a MUCH better deal.

---------- Post added at 05:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:40 PM ----------

Also Simon, you said there is a controller available, do you have a link? Or a idea on price?

StraX22
03-07-2011, 02:12 PM
The controller he's talking about is this one: http://www.fleeceperformance.com/product/925c84ae-74bf-403e-86df-ab239691e801.aspx
Looks to not be ideal for a custom application, not to mention expensive!

I was thinking of making a flange adapter that would re-position the turbo for maximum clearance. The firewall will yield to the sawzall!!

No time to work on the motor this weekend I'll try to get to it tonight but I have an entire garage worth of junk from the apartment to organize.

turbovanman²
03-07-2011, 04:39 PM
The controller he's talking about is this one: http://www.fleeceperformance.com/product/925c84ae-74bf-403e-86df-ab239691e801.aspx
Looks to not be ideal for a custom application, not to mention expensive!

I was thinking of making a flange adapter that would re-position the turbo for maximum clearance. The firewall will yield to the sawzall!!

No time to work on the motor this weekend I'll try to get to it tonight but I have an entire garage worth of junk from the apartment to organize.

No, that's not it, its a standalone controller strictly for that turbo, it uses MAP and TPS inputs I believe and around $500, fully adjustable. They could have delayed its release, there are some links floating around this site.

Poor firewall, :(

StraX22
03-21-2011, 09:08 PM
Update with the van.
I’ve been using a cylinder hone in the bores in an attempt to remove some scratches in the sidewall from the previous tenants. My biggest worry is that I am going too far with it.

I have a digital bore gauge but I don’t think I’m using it right because it says that the bore is smaller than stock size!

As a secondary check I measured the gap of one of the top rings and it’s about .020 - .022 with a feeler gauge. The rings are the Sealed Power rings that come with the standard size Venolia pistons from FWD Performance. The part number is E-453K.


http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000499Medium.jpg

I destroyed another set of hone stones by wildly flinging them around the engine compartment so I’ll need to get another set before I continue.
And pics of other goodies waiting to go on….


http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000500Medium.jpg

turbovanman²
03-21-2011, 09:21 PM
I assume 3 bar hone, I hate those, prefer the ball hone.

Measure piston to cylinder clearance with a feeler gauge, not 100% accurate but it will give you a pretty close measurement.

RoadWarrior222
03-21-2011, 10:49 PM
I have a digital bore gauge but I don’t think I’m using it right because it says that the bore is smaller than stock size!

Are you measuring right at the top, 'coz there will be a bore ridge at the top of the bore, where it's narrower. Typically one reams that off before pulling pistons out the top to avoid messing up the rings (If the piston isn't trash).

Vigo
03-22-2011, 12:03 AM
Yeh, i tried to figure out that bore gauge for a good half hour and couldnt get it. Its not a ridge causing the confusion we're suffering.

Reaper1
03-22-2011, 12:25 AM
Did you zero calibrate the gage? There is probably a way that it needs to be zeroed so it reads correctly.

Vigo
03-22-2011, 02:46 AM
Yes, we zeroed it. The stock bore size is ~3.44" / 87.6mm. We setup the gauge with the proper spacers and extensions to have a free length of 3.45". The gauge gives you a negative value from it's fully extended position depending on how much smaller the bore is than it's free length. The problem we were having was that the measurements we got, when subtracted from 3.45" (verified with calipers btw), resulted in a number SMALLER than the stock bore size. The bore gauge itself did read the proper amount when you depressed it.. we verified that too. So if we know the free length WAS 3.45", and we know the gauge is measuring accurately 1:1, and we know the engine bore didnt SHRINK.. then wtf.

Reaper1
03-22-2011, 09:45 AM
The moon is too close! Try again in 15 days! LOL

Reeves
03-22-2011, 09:55 AM
The moon is too close! Try again in 15 days! LOL

^LOL

It's the end of the world as we know it.....

StraX22
03-28-2011, 07:55 PM
Okay, I need some advice. Here's the scoring that's left on the cylinder walls after honing for a while. Will these nicks make much of a difference? I've already wend through two hones and four sets of stones.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000501Large.jpg

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000503Large.jpg

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000504Large.jpg

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000506Large.jpg

The piston still seems reasonably tight. As stated before, I'm having a bit of trouble using a bore gauge. Perhaps I'm just worrying too much about the clearances? As long as the Rings gap properly it should be fine, right?

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000507Large.jpg

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp167/StraX22/P1000508Large.jpg

I've put together a lot of motors fresh from the machine shop but none that have had some un-repaired damage before. I just need a point of reference.

turbovanman²
03-28-2011, 08:45 PM
I mentioned feeler gauge earlier on, did you try that? Those scores are fine.

NO, measure bore clearance, if you its too tight, the piston will scuff, ven's and forged need more clearance than cast. BTW, your cross hatch is too close together, you moved too fast, slow down, and I would finish with a ball hone, much better than a bar hone, :p

Reaper1
03-29-2011, 12:15 AM
I was gonna say...where's the cross hatching!?

Vigo
03-29-2011, 12:19 AM
If the cross hatch is too close together that would mean he moved too slow....

feeler gauge it! Then let's put it back together!

A.J.
03-29-2011, 12:26 AM
For a 45* crosshatch you need to have the spinning speed of the hone slow, and the top to bottom movement fast.

A.J.

turbovanman²
03-29-2011, 02:07 AM
If the cross hatch is too close together that would mean he moved too slow....



Right, lol, :banghead:

StraX22
03-29-2011, 03:47 PM
The feeler gauge I have (parallel type) seems too wide to conform to the curvature of the cylinder wall. That is unless I'm doing it wrong.

I need to pick up a ball hone for the final passes to get the crosshatch in, totally fed up with the bar hones.

turbovanman²
03-29-2011, 03:59 PM
What thickness are you using, it should easily work.

Reeves
03-29-2011, 04:18 PM
I use brass feeler gauges so I don't scratch up the walls. But a bore gauge is your best bet.

Also, what rings you using? Moly rings don't like ball hones very much.

StraX22
03-29-2011, 04:28 PM
I use brass feeler gauges so I don't scratch up the walls. But a bore gauge is your best bet.

Also, what rings you using? Moly rings don't like ball hones very much.

I'm using Sealed Power moly rings (E-453K). Why would they have a problem?

Reeves
03-29-2011, 04:36 PM
Dingle Berry hones leave a pretty rough hone. They etch up the rings pretty fast.

StraX22
03-29-2011, 04:55 PM
Dingle Berry hones leave a pretty rough hone. They etch up the rings pretty fast.

I just ordered a 240 grit from McMaster earlier today. I also have a set of fine grit stones for the 3-bar that are unbroken.

If I have time this evening I'll give it a go.

turbovanman²
03-29-2011, 05:34 PM
I'm using Sealed Power moly rings (E-453K). Why would they have a problem?

Nope.


Dingle Berry hones leave a pretty rough hone. They etch up the rings pretty fast.

Depends on what grit he gets. Ball hones for the backyarder simply work much better than bar hones.

moparman76_69
03-29-2011, 09:23 PM
Dingle Berry hones leave a pretty rough hone. They etch up the rings pretty fast.

Thought I was the only one that called them that. Must be a southern thing.

To the OP you'll be much happier with the ball type hone. I ordered one and was easily able to get perfect crosshatch using a variable speed harbor freight Chinese special drill

black86glhs
04-03-2011, 09:25 PM
With a turbo, itll be lots quieter. Dont try to tighten the gasket while its hot. Go to the dealer and get Mopar gaskets.Huh????

RoadWarrior222
04-03-2011, 10:55 PM
Oh crap, that's my activation phrase... been nice knowing you guys.

moparman76_69
04-03-2011, 11:59 PM
Also, what rings you using? Moly rings don't like ball hones very much.


Dingle Berry hones leave a pretty rough hone. They etch up the rings pretty fast.



Depends on what grit he gets. Ball hones for the backyarder simply work much better than bar hones.

IIRC I got a 320 to use with the moly rings.

oldyeller
04-05-2011, 02:24 PM
I heard from one of my buddys who used to build cars/ motors dragraced and so on that the balls, well not taht great! Maybe on like a weed waker or something ya but he says use the stones, you can even dip the hwole thing in oil and like 15 seconds and your done! Dont score it to deep and all and the stones do a better job! Thats what he said! Not my experiance but his. is hwat he said wrong? Cuz I would say you want just enough scufff on the walls for oil but with a turbo motor dont want them to deep cuz might increase blowby?

turbovanman²
04-07-2011, 02:30 AM
I heard from one of my buddys who used to build cars/ motors dragraced and so on that the balls, well not taht great! Maybe on like a weed waker or something ya but he says use the stones, you can even dip the hwole thing in oil and like 15 seconds and your done! Dont score it to deep and all and the stones do a better job! Thats what he said! Not my experiance but his. is hwat he said wrong? Cuz I would say you want just enough scufff on the walls for oil but with a turbo motor dont want them to deep cuz might increase blowby?

I've built 100's of engines, and honestly, always had issues with bar hones, especially on used engines, they don't get every nook and cranny, and I've had too many come back for rings not seating. Redone with a ball hone, fixed, good compression and no oil burning.

oldyeller
04-13-2011, 12:30 AM
Hmmmm interesting info!

Every use both? like stones first for a few seconds then the balls for a few more seconds? Would that benifit at all?

RoadWarrior222
04-13-2011, 07:46 AM
Stones or balls it's how you wiggle it that makes the rings happy :eyebrows:

StraX22
04-17-2011, 06:20 PM
Ooohkay! I think I'm happy with the piston fitment, it does seem to vary quite a bit but still seems within tolerance. Here's what I measured for ring gaps.
1 - Top .026
Bottom .025

2 - Top .022
Bottom .022

3 - Top .022
Bottom .020

4 - Top .026
Bottom .025

And that's even before filing! I'm thinking about opening up the bottom ring gaps to be the same if not a smidge larger than the top.

Vigo
04-17-2011, 11:23 PM
I just stumbled across this. I didnt do the math though. :p

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/Ben_Lude/76fbc4fd.jpg

Ondonti
04-18-2011, 12:38 AM
Those ring gaps are ridiculously big for not being filed yet, and not consistent. Crap quality?

Follow the chart vigo posted for deciding how much larger you want your 2nd rings. They need to be able to pass ALL the residual blowbye gases from the first ring between compression strokes so the 1st ring does not flutter.

I don't know what to do with your rings when some are 26 and some are 22 for the top. I like my stuff all the same. I would suggest using the largest gap top rings in whatever cylinders you think are the hottest so you can at least pretend you are taking advantage of the situation.

black86glhs
04-18-2011, 12:38 AM
Leave the gaps alone unless you want the two lower ones to match the higher ones. You have plenty of room for expansion. The top end of clearance is around .018" for the top ring, IIRC. Either that or get oversized rings and file them to the correct size gap. Last one I did the gaps were .017-.020 and it ran fine. Blow by wasn't really bad on it either.

Vigo
04-18-2011, 01:17 AM
Those ring gaps are ridiculously big for not being filed yet, and not consistent. Crap quality?

The cylinders are probably not all the same size anymore. They had some scores after the last pistons so the plan was to hone until the marks came out and then measure the bore to see if it was useable or would need a real overbore. They seemed usable so we started checking piston-to-wall clearance and tried to get that in the ballpark, and THEN laid the rings in. So the bores are not all the same size.

Ondonti
04-18-2011, 01:27 AM
So are the cylinders with the bigger ring gaps also seeing bigger piston to wall clearances? I would not have worried so much about those scratches myself. Anything that deep you will either have to live with or bore. Still having the scratch and a sloppy cylinder is not exactly splitting the difference.

Will say it again. 2nd ring always bigger then the top. His rings are already that size Bryan so he is sorta stuck with what he has or needs to bore and order oversize. Big ring gaps really don't hurt things as much as we might think, but 2nd needs to be bigger. If you want to maximize power and durability, thats how you do it.

RoadWarrior222
04-18-2011, 01:23 PM
One thing I would say about the scratches is round the edge of the ring gaps well and try and clock the rings away from them.

Ondonti
04-18-2011, 08:47 PM
One thing I would say about the scratches is round the edge of the ring gaps well and try and clock the rings away from them.

Interesting thought.

Thing is, they suggest not marring the face of your ring at all or the outer coating may chip off. Would the ring really stop at the scratch?

turbovanman²
04-19-2011, 02:46 AM
Will say it again. 2nd ring always bigger then the top. His rings are already that size Bryan so he is sorta stuck with what he has or needs to bore and order oversize. Big ring gaps really don't hurt things as much as we might think, but 2nd needs to be bigger. If you want to maximize power and durability, thats how you do it.

Agreed.

RoadWarrior222
04-19-2011, 08:26 AM
Interesting thought.

Thing is, they suggest not marring the face of your ring at all or the outer coating may chip off. Would the ring really stop at the scratch?
Right, good point. I'd angle it a bit then, rather than full rounding, just to get rid of a "catchy" 90* point. Though with that in mind you probably have to be very careful you don't damage the edge when sizing them normally.

Vigo
04-19-2011, 12:40 PM
The scratches are gone, in any case. He honed until they disappeared. It just so happens that venolia's like such a large clearance that the bores were still useable even after that.

turbovanman²
04-19-2011, 01:17 PM
The scratches are gone, in any case. He honed until they disappeared. It just so happens that venolia's like such a large clearance that the bores were still useable even after that.

That's internet myth, lol. People for some reason assumed that as they list a wide tolerance on the spec sheet. I set mine at .004 or .0045 when I used them with no issues, nice and quiet. .007 is simply too large and they will always make noise, :(

Reeves
04-19-2011, 01:34 PM
Couldn't you call Venoila and find out for sure?

I swear I once found a set of Total Seal rings that were .005" over size for situations like this......they don't seem to exist anymore?

turbovanman²
04-19-2011, 02:53 PM
I thought TS made custom rings in any size?

RoadWarrior222
04-19-2011, 10:50 PM
It's should be easy to get cast iron rings made any size you like... finding somewhere that can also moly spray them might be the rub.

Vigo
04-20-2011, 12:33 AM
That's internet myth, lol. People for some reason assumed that as they list a wide tolerance on the spec sheet. I set mine at .004 or .0045 when I used them with no issues, nice and quiet. .007 is simply too large and they will always make noise,

So what you're saying is that if we use this engine with the specs listed for the venolia's, it will make noise?

Im pretty sure the clearance at the top of the skirt is over .007 on some of them. The bottom of the skirt is ~.005 iirc.

black86glhs
04-20-2011, 12:42 AM
So are the cylinders with the bigger ring gaps also seeing bigger piston to wall clearances? I would not have worried so much about those scratches myself. Anything that deep you will either have to live with or bore. Still having the scratch and a sloppy cylinder is not exactly splitting the difference.

Will say it again. 2nd ring always bigger then the top. His rings are already that size Bryan so he is sorta stuck with what he has or needs to bore and order oversize. Big ring gaps really don't hurt things as much as we might think, but 2nd needs to be bigger. If you want to maximize power and durability, thats how you do it.I meant to specify the top ring gaps should be left alone.:o The second rings need a little filing but nothing extreme. I agree that the slightly larger gaps aren't a major deal.:thumb:

turbovanman²
04-20-2011, 12:58 AM
So what you're saying is that if we use this engine with the specs listed for the venolia's, it will make noise?

Im pretty sure the clearance at the top of the skirt is over .007 on some of them. The bottom of the skirt is ~.005 iirc.

Correct, if you look at the spec sheet, they list a wide range of clearances. I too heard they needed alot of clearance so I set my first Ven's at .007", its friggin loud and almost goes away hot, summer is much better.

I then got a set for the van, set the clearance as mentioned and perfect, :nod: until of course, I did my usual ignore gauges routine, :banghead:

---------- Post added at 09:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 PM ----------


It's should be easy to get cast iron rings made any size you like... finding somewhere that can also moly spray them might be the rub.

I've been doing alot of reading about rings recently and found that with moly rings, the coating can peel off with detonation, I talked to Hastings about that and they agreed. I found a set with a steel top ring, and Hastings laps the ring in so it will seat.

Vigo
04-20-2011, 01:18 AM
I then got a set for the van, set the clearance as mentioned and perfect, until of course, I did my usual ignore gauges routine,


Where are you measuring .0045? At the bottom of the skirt? I dont think Strax22 wants a noisy engine so we need to figure this out.

black86glhs
04-20-2011, 01:27 AM
Where are you measuring .0045? At the bottom of the skirt? I dont think Strax22 wants a noisy engine so we need to figure this out.You better get some .020" over ashtrays then. They will be noisy the way it is.

You could get the skirts knurled. This will raise the surface of the aluminum a little. I wouldn't if it was me. This is a band-aid type of thing. :yuck:
I wouldn't be surprised if .020 overs fit tightly in there now. :nod:

Vigo
04-20-2011, 03:08 AM
I have another std bore block we could use. Just trying to get all the info on ring gaps, piston-to-wall gaps, etc that will work 'well enough' vs just using the other block. If it's super noisy that might not be 'well enough'.

RoadWarrior222
04-20-2011, 09:46 AM
I've been doing alot of reading about rings recently and found that with moly rings, the coating can peel off with detonation, I talked to Hastings about that and they agreed. I found a set with a steel top ring, and Hastings laps the ring in so it will seat.

But those last 10HP you gain from running close to the detonation limit, you'll lose with more friction with rings that survive it, and it's not the only part it's hard on... so you may as well just start being careful. Plus you'll be in for rebores every 30,000 or so until you run out of block.

StraX22
04-20-2011, 07:41 PM
New plan...

I'm going to use the original block out of the '89 silver van, going to pick it up from Vigo's this Friday. I'm going to do some housework with it on the stand and have the machine shop hot tank and check it out.

I set mine at .004 or .0045 when I used them with no issues, nice and quiet. .007 is simply too large and they will always make noise, :(
That sounds like a lot more of a reasonable goal. I'll also gap the rings a lot closer to normal. I should have just taken the lot to a machine shop in the first place but I'd like to think I learned a bit from this little misadventure.
More news to come closer to the end of the week.

turbovanman²
04-20-2011, 08:10 PM
Its good to learn, sometimes it sucks the hard way but you'll never forget, :nod.

I just did a rering on a car with Venolia's, using a feeler gauge, .006" was tight. Cold is noisey, but when fully warm, just a hint and when it gets really hot, quiet.

You measure the pistons 90 deg from the wrist pin and on the skirt, then of course, measure the bore and you'll have your piston clearance.

Vigo
04-20-2011, 08:36 PM
I should have just taken the lot to a machine shop in the first place but I'd like to think I learned a bit from this little misadventure.

True dat about the learning. You never know when all this learnin' might come in handy.