First time to track 101mph

[rpmguy]

Hey I took my shadow for the first time down the track friday night. Ended up with a 13.87 @ 101 street tires. Had a good time spanking two 5.0 and a supercoupe t-bird. Not bad for a 4door auto shadow. Question is I need tires, what size and what make. Im running 15" stock pumpers and would like to mount them. Any Ideas do you guy run tubes in you slicks?

[BIG PSI]

That is a great time especially in the heat of Summer and you being on street tires.
Can you post the entire time slip for me to see ?
What all has been done to your P Body in mods ?
Can you post up some photos of your car car as well ?

But to your question, do you want to run slicks or DOT Drag Radials ?
If you are going to run slicks, I would run M & H:
( http://www.mandhtires.com/store.php?crn=71&rn=331&action=show_detail )

I do not run tubes in my slicks, but that choice is yours.

Great Job
Chuck
I have the exact set mounted on 15" pumpers.

[1FastCSX289]

Thats actually a really good ET for that mph considering youre on street tires. Good driving! :clap:

[rpmguy]

Slip is in the car, will post later. Not a whole lot done. Manual valve body , t3 t4 46 trim. ebay china front mount, 2 1/2 swing 2 1/2 down no cat, side exit. stock swirl and cam. stock cal. running +40 lowered fuel pressure. zener diode .
Been waiting for a cal for paul for a while now, hope to try 3 bar soon.

Was running race fuel, and high boost. not sure on boost , it was off the stock gauge LOL.
guessing around 21-22psi

Fun cars I need slicks. ps I would like to start to post pics of car, but not sure how to do it. Will keep trying

[GLHNSLHT2]

If you get Dwayne to get you an album set up on the PNW-SDAC site you can post pics on here from there. Just right click the pic, find the image info and copy it, then click the little box with the mountain here above the reply box and post the info in the pop up window.

[turbovanman²]

To post photos, either become a member or host thru sites like "photobucket"

Nice time, :nod:

If your using stock wheels, go with the 23's and I think the 24's clear without spacers.

I would also look into a LSD so you don't get the one tire fry or preload the shim and move weight around to help stop it if you don't.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Mod the sway bar

http://www.pnw-sdac.org/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=2586&g2_serialNumber=2

Spins them both equally every time.

http://www.pnw-sdac.org/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=3940&g2_serialNumber=2

[Directconnection]

http://www.pnw-sdac.org/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=3940&g2_serialNumber=2

That's all she got? {trying to use reverse psychology here....}

A redneck friend of mine had an 80's Cutlass with a mildly built 350 (300-325 hp) and would do stoopit stuff with it just to show off. Burnouts and donuts for the cameras... yet we's all jokingly say: "ahh.... ---- Pete.... my camera wasn't ready" or " naw, you only had one tire spinning in 2nd" ;)

So.... let me say it again: "that's all she got?" Pansy arse 1st gear rubber :D

[rpmguy]

I like the look of the sway bar mod. Going to look at doing that. So M/H 24" how wide. Also looking at another mod, should I try the underdrive pully or adjustable cam gear first.

[turbovanman²]

Mod the sway bar

http://www.pnw-sdac.org/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=2586&g2_serialNumber=2

Spins them both equally every time.

http://www.pnw-sdac.org/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=3940&g2_serialNumber=2

Is that with slicks or street tires?


I like the look of the sway bar mod. Going to look at doing that. So M/H 24" how wide. Also looking at another mod, should I try the underdrive pully or adjustable cam gear first.

24's only come in one width I think, 24.5" for M@H.

I would do the UD pulley unless you have a different cam in.

[GLHNSLHT2]

All that was was some brake torque up to 7psi and release the brake and get out of it before slamming into the garage and trying not to get too much attention from the neighbors. It was on streets with the f'd up inner tie rod as you can see from the left side being a bit darker than the right as it had a bunch of toe in when doing that.

Both my running Turbo mopar's have the modded sway bar setup now. And both will spin both like that unless I have the wheel at full lock in 1st gear and am rolling when I jump on it, then you'll get just a bit of inside tire spin.

[rpmguy]

GLHNSLHT2 do you have a pic of the sway bar installed? Confused how to bolt that up. So with that mod you can get a non-posi car to spin both tires? cool need to do it soon

[GLHNSLHT2]

http://www.pnw-sdac.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=2579

click on the pics to read descriptions/part#'s/how-to's on the side of them. It's set up for an 89/90 kmember/arms setup. To do it on an an earlier car the ends might have to be a different length, or holes drilled in your arms. Later would be the same possibly.

[Keito]

I run M&H 7.5/23-15's on my Omni
http://www.mandhtires.com/store.php?crn=71&rn=330&action=show_detail

[rpmguy]

keito, thanks do you screw the rims and run tubes. or do these cars even have problems with slipping the tire on the rim

[Juggy]

keito, thanks do you screw the rims and run tubes. or do these cars even have problems with slipping the tire on the rim

you shouldnt have a prob spinning the slicks lol...no real need for screws...

some run tubes, some dont....

[turbovanman²]

you shouldnt have a prob spinning the slicks lol...no real need for screws...

some run tubes, some dont....

Yep, no tubes or screws, never spun or moved a tire.

[Vigo]

Congrats on the time. Really good e.t. for the mph, as said.. so again, good driving!

[rpmguy]

Ok here is the time slip
60' 2.276
330 6.008
1/8 9.025 81.46mph
1000' 11.650
1/4 13.873
mph 101.46


Let me know what you guys think was leaving soft and the turbo was a little lazy I thought getting to full boost. but that might of help me not blow the tire off in the top of first.

started shifting higher and higher like 5500

last pass would have been better turned boost higher but car just shut off like overboost. then lifted hit again same thing. But on the drive home everything was fine. Not sure what to look at.
Has anybody had a hep sensor go bad at high boost, but then drive fine.

Not overboosting thou map volts 4.54 maxed. Felt like ignition.:confused2:

[BIG PSI]

Your car probably was getting vapor lock.
You have to cool our 2.5 motors down between runs.
I let mine sit about 30 minutes with the cooling fan running and ice on the intake & I/C.
Try that next time...
Also pump up your back tire pressure to 45 psi (less rolling resistance).


To give you an idea, my younger son (Bryan) use to have a 89 Spirit 2.5 auto turbo
with a big front mount, t3/t4 Hybrid stage 3 wheel .63 a/r housing on slicks ran a best of;

1.887
5.523
8.671 @ 77.86
11.362
13.726 @ 97.37

[cordes]

Your car probably was getting vapor lock.
You have to cool our 2.5 motors down between runs.
I let mine sit about 30 minutes with the cooling fan running and ice on the intake & I/C.
Try that next time...
Also pump up your back tire pressure to 45 psi (less rolling resistance).


To give you an idea, my younger son (Bryan) use to have a 89 Spirit 2.5 auto turbo
with a big front mount, t3/t4 Hybrid stage 3 wheel .63 a/r housing on slicks ran a best of;

1.887
5.523
8.671 @ 77.86
11.362
13.726 @ 97.37

I find it almost hard to believe that summer mix gas could vapor lock under 55PSI of pressure. :confused2:

[rpmguy]

You think vapor lock you mean pressure in gas tank or boiling fuel rail? might be but it didnt act like missfire or bad plugs. just as if i shut off the key

[rpmguy]

also car had straight race fuel in it

[Vigo]

Im tending to think that it actually WAS overboost via the map sensor... when were you watching the map volts? Not at track, right?

Does your voltmeter have a min-max function? you might be able to use it to 'log' your highest map volts while at the track next time. It could be that conditions at the track were causing your car to load differently than it does on the street. I dont really understand that fully, but ive heard enough talk about it that i believe it is possible now.. :p

[rpmguy]

I was tunning with an otc and recorded the pass, and banged it again on the return road same thing. otc showing 4.52-4.54 right at problem. not over boost, no code.

[turbovanman²]

I find it almost hard to believe that summer mix gas could vapor lock under 55PSI of pressure. :confused2:

Exactly, vapour lock is a thing of the past with high pressure fuel injection systems. Carb I would say yes, our fuel systems, no. Probably was overboost cutout.


Im tending to think that it actually WAS overboost via the map sensor... when were you watching the map volts? Not at track, right?

Does your voltmeter have a min-max function? you might be able to use it to 'log' your highest map volts while at the track next time. It could be that conditions at the track were causing your car to load differently than it does on the street. I dont really understand that fully, but ive heard enough talk about it that i believe it is possible now.. :p

Most definately, I've tuned on the street, then gone to track and its different. The track hooks so much harder, changes alot of variables.

[22shelby]

GOOD RUN!!! just to give you an idea of how fast that set up can be, i hav a 91 daytona, same turbo f3 auto on a 3 bar cal( a very safe cal) i ran a best of 12.75 at 106 w/ a 1.850 60 foot....and i know it has more in her, just the 160 k sbe is showing itself....

i have prob 20 time slips from last season of 13.21 to 13.50 on a STOCK auto trans w/ the accum blocked...

keep at it!! ull get it down!! drop that 60 down by .10 and ull go 13.50 drop .20 and that set up may see 13.00 ish...

oh btw the 12.75 was on MT 22x8!!!!picked up 4 MPH from the 23s i ran...

[rpmguy]

Vigo you got me thinking, so I wet out to check otc and it did show code 45. Maybe i did overboost. makes no sense no over boost at 20psi then over at 22 have zener. If the boost came on so fast and hard could it blow by the zener for a split second before it could send voltage to ground. otc never showed spike in map volts. time for 3 bar cal if i could one

[rpmguy]

22shelby I need to know more about your combo. 22" tires picked up 4 mph??? damm I was going to try 24" first. I need to order some this week, now i dont know what size to try.

[turbovanman²]

Vigo you got me thinking, so I wet out to check otc and it did show code 45. Maybe i did overboost. makes no sense no over boost at 20psi then over at 22 have zener. If the boost came on so fast and hard could it blow by the zener for a split second before it could send voltage to ground. otc never showed spike in map volts. time for 3 bar cal if i could one

Yes, the track is sticky so it loads the engine more.

[Keito]

22shelby I need to know more about your combo. 22" tires picked up 4 mph??? damm I was going to try 24" first. I need to order some this week, now i dont know what size to try.

He has a heavier Daytona, 22" will get his car moving faster,
but will increase RPM on the top end.
I was running 205/50-15 DR's before the slicks.
Way too much RPM at the end of the track, boost was dropping off.
I installed a .91 transfer grear and brought it down.

I don't screw or use tubes in my slicks either.

[1FastCSX289]

Definitely time for a 3 bar cal. You can buy the 3 bar map for 30 bucks and if you can solder, the computer is basically free. If not, 75 bucks will get you a socketed computer......100 bucks and youre in business and dont have to worry about overboosting and screwing with fuel pressure.

[R/T]

22shelby I need to know more about your combo. 22" tires picked up 4 mph??? damm I was going to try 24" first. I need to order some this week, now i dont know what size to try.

Your results my vary, BUT:

Me thinks 24's are too tall for your set up.

We just tried a set on an auto Shadow we have here, they killed the launch.

The same night our 22" MT's were fine.

I say go with 22's or 23's...... ;)

[22shelby]

its a stock 2.5L on a MP Ghead, w/ a F3 cam... im running a precision IC w 3 inch DP.... the only major mod is a semi built trans in it right now....the stock held up decent but had to go sooner or later.... i have a custom G head 3 bar cal from FWDp that I control the boost(24-26 psi)....

not sure how your launch ing, but i prestage get on the brake and ease into the throttle, get the rpms up to about 3500(+-) just to where it getsinto boost, i creep up staged, instant 1/2 throttle which puts me almost at close to 3800 at 15 or so PSI then drop the hammer.....

on street tires you will roast all the way down on this launch set up, however a properly set up slick should grab enough to land you a real decent 60' number... like i said i went 1.850 on the 60'

how deep into third were you crossing the line,.... like what rpm???

[Keito]

1.85 on a Daytona is pretty good.
What converter are you running to stall 3800?
For reference, what RPM are you going throught the traps?

I agree with R/T, 24's are a little big, but I think 22's
will be a little short.

[22shelby]

1.85 on a Daytona is pretty good.
What converter are you running to stall 3800?
For reference, what RPM are you going throught the traps?

I agree with R/T, 24's are a little big, but I think 22's
will be a little short.

i cross at @ 4000, the convertor i believe is a reworked stocker....it came w/ the mystery trans i bought, but im guessing it right around 3800 or so..... my stock one would start bucking aroun 3200 or so and the brakes couldnt hold it back after 3200, now i see bout 3800-3900- befor it starts kicking

[BIG PSI]

I find it almost hard to believe that summer mix gas could vapor lock under 55PSI of pressure. :confused2:

All I can say in my defense is OBSERVATION.

I have been Drag Racing since I was 18, I am now 55.

If I put ice on the intake and inter-cooler, turn the cooling fan on, and let the vehicle sit for 30 minutes compared to running, getting back into staging and running again ---MY ETs WILL DROP .25 to .30.

All you have to do to prove it to yourself is buy a couple bags of ice, take a cooler with you to the track, and have a fan override switch and TEST !!!

Chuck

[Keito]

All your doing by putting ice on the intake is cooling the charge more.


22Shelby,
Sounds to me you might have .91 transfer gears, I remember
my RPM being much higher before the gear swap.

[22shelby]

All your doing by putting ice on the intake is cooling the charge more.


22Shelby,
Sounds to me you might have .91 transfer gears, I remember
my RPM being much higher before the gear swap.

id like to find out the gearing, but sadly i dont have the knowledge to figure that out.....if anyone could shed some light id gladly take a PM, deff dont want to hi-jack the thread...:thumb:

[turbovanman²]

He has a heavier Daytona, 22" will get his car moving faster,
but will increase RPM on the top end.
I was running 205/50-15 DR's before the slicks.
Way too much RPM at the end of the track, boost was dropping off.
I installed a .91 transfer grear and brought it down.

I don't screw or use tubes in my slicks either.

22's with an auto can be too short, plus it looks funny, lol. I can't remember but I was using my whole powerband with my old 8 valve engine, 24's were better but I was making more power.


Your results my vary, BUT:

Me thinks 24's are too tall for your set up.

We just tried a set on an auto Shadow we have here, they killed the launch.

The same night our 22" MT's were fine.

I say go with 22's or 23's...... ;)

24's should be fine, but 23's are a good trade off.


id like to find out the gearing, but sadly i dont have the knowledge to figure that out.....if anyone could shed some light id gladly take a PM, deff dont want to hi-jack the thread...:thumb:

The only way is to pull the side cover and diff covers off and count teeth.

[22shelby]

The only way is to pull the side cover and diff covers off and count teeth.

ok sweet im not as dumb as i look:eyebrows: thats what i was thinking.....oh btw simon, that mystery phone number the (630) from SDAC was me:thumb:

[turbovanman²]

ok sweet im not as dumb as i look:eyebrows: thats what i was thinking.....oh btw simon, that mystery phone number the (630) from SDAC was me:thumb:

Hahhaa, you guys were funnny, :lol:

[BIG PSI]

All your doing by putting ice on the intake is cooling the charge more.


22Shelby,
Sounds to me you might have .91 transfer gears, I remember
my RPM being much higher before the gear swap.

That is correct and by cooling the charge more the gas molecules get denser and therefore you can get more air and more fuel thus making more power.

Guys---try this and see for yourself.

Make 3-4 passes in a row and watch what happens to your ET & MPH
Then take a 30 minutes break and ice the intake and inter-cooler, go back out and make another pass (but be careful not to get your engine to warm by idling in the staging lanes).

I try to launch around 150-160 degrees.

I see improvements on each of my turbo vehicles.

Chuck

[Vigo]

22Shelby, if you know what rpm you pass through the traps at, the trap speed, and your tire size, you CAN calculate your ratio off of that.

Just going off the vagueness of the numbers i know.. ~4000 rpm crossing traps at 106mph on 22" tires (im assuming 22.5" due to tire growth)..

3.02 FD which is stock turbo trans FD would be only ~90 mph at 4000 rpm
2.78 FD which never came on turbos and has different ring and pinion AND transfer gears than turbo, would be ~96mph at 4000 rpm.
2.60 FD, which can be a turbo trans with the transfer gears from the 2.78 trans put in, is ~102 mph at 4000 rpm.

So, seems like 2.6 FD is probably what you have. The 4mph difference from the math to your trap speed could be a bunch of things, such as the tach being off a little bit, the tire size i assumed could be off a little bit, the input speed of the converter being higher than the output (always true without lockup, and your converter is looser than stock), or a combination of all those and more.. But its the closest option of the 3 most likely options by far.

[rpmguy]

Thanks for all the tips guys, going for the 23" m/h. wanting to get back to the track. whats the lowest mph you have seen with these cars and run a 12.99

[22shelby]

my next run out after the 12.75 was 12.90 at 104.74 :thumb: on a 1.865 1/8th was8.21@84.87

[Dave]

I find it almost hard to believe that summer mix gas could vapor lock under 55PSI of pressure. :confused2:

It is still possible. Fuel get's hot and there's less energy by volume.


Exactly, vapour lock is a thing of the past with high pressure fuel injection systems. Carb I would say yes, our fuel systems, no. Probably was overboost cutout.



All I can say in my defense is OBSERVATION.

I have been Drag Racing since I was 18, I am now 55.

If I put ice on the intake and inter-cooler, turn the cooling fan on, and let the vehicle sit for 30 minutes compared to running, getting back into staging and running again ---MY ETs WILL DROP .25 to .30.

All you have to do to prove it to yourself is buy a couple bags of ice, take a cooler with you to the track, and have a fan override switch and TEST !!!

Chuck

I had it happen in my Spirit when I took it for a very hot drive to Thompson (40 + mile drive one way). Got to the track, uncap the exhaust, sat for maybe 10 minutes and went for a run. The first 2 runs it would cut out every time I got into it. I let it sit and cool off and all was better. Anything is possible that it could have been something else, but personally that appeared to be what was happening.


All your doing by putting ice on the intake is cooling the charge more.

Your cooling off a very hot (very critical) component that the incoming air must travel though. Heat always moves from hot to cold, if the manifold is warmer than the incoming air as your going down the track, that charge air will be absorbed by conduction via the hot intake manifold surface.

[Vigo]

The lowest possible mph ive seen TD's do ~12.99 on is like 99 mph. You MIGHT be able to pull off a 12.99 on the trap speed you have (with slicks), but if you thought the low end was soft on street tires, that probably means you cant do any better than you already have without fixing it. You need to be able to give the slicks all the power they can take to get the most ET advantage out of them.. In fact, that may be the only reason you were able to do so well.. Usually these cars are such torque monsters that they're damn hard to ET on street tires. My aries did 14.5@98 being driven by a guy who claimed to hold the ET record for a stock SRT4 on street tires.

[turbovanman²]

Thanks for all the tips guys, going for the 23" m/h. wanting to get back to the track. whats the lowest mph you have seen with these cars and run a 12.99

My lowest is 12.9@100 mph.


It is still possible. Fuel get's hot and there's less energy by volume.





I had it happen in my Spirit when I took it for a very hot drive to Thompson (40 + mile drive one way). Got to the track, uncap the exhaust, sat for maybe 10 minutes and went for a run. The first 2 runs it would cut out every time I got into it. I let it sit and cool off and all was better. Anything is possible that it could have been something else, but personally that appeared to be what was happening.



Your cooling off a very hot (very critical) component that the incoming air must travel though. Heat always moves from hot to cold, if the manifold is warmer than the incoming air as your going down the track, that charge air will be absorbed by conduction via the hot intake manifold surface.

I just can't see it happening, you have 55 psi of fuel pressure and alot of volume, you turn the key and the fuel in the rail is purged and sent back to the tank so no chance of vapour lock. Maybe you had a sensor glitching out?

I understand icing the intake etc, makes perfect sense.

[rpmguy]

Nice, going to track with slicks next. I will see what the will take for foot brake launch. I do have a hughes converter forgot to mention. not sure on stall yet, never full stall it on street tires. when I ordered it from them they said they had only one part# for my trans. funny thing is on the box it said Stall = Special.

[R/T]

Just for fun, from Gary Donovan's Dodge Garage:

A413 trans ratios!!! :clap:
************************************************** **
Transfer gears-

0.91 (52 and 57 teeth) (later L body)
1.04 (47 and 45 teeth) (Neon)
1.22 (60 and 49 teeth) (early L body with the VW)

In the factory service manual the following possible stock final drive ratios are listed:

2.60 => 0.91 transfer and 2.86 ring
2.78 => 0.91 transfer and 3.05 ring
3.02 => 1.06 transfer and 2.86 ring
3.22 => 1.06 transfer and 3.05 ring
3.50 => 1.22 transfer and 2.86 ring
3.72 => 1.22 transfer and 3.05 ring

And for Neons:

3.19 => 1.04 transfer and 3.05 ring
2.98 => 1.04 transfer and 2.86 ring
************************************************** *****

On Nathan's Shadow- Auto with RMVB, 22" M/T slicks, stock Mitsu we trap at about 4000RPM.

Best so far is 13.89, best MPH is 97+

I'd like to play with the transfer gears and gear down to use that extra 1500RPM in the quarter... :evil:

Need to snag some Neon units at the J yard.....:eyebrows:

[Vigo]

Well, IF my numbers and your tach, etc, are reasonably correct, that would imply you have the 2.78 ratio.. but no turbo cars came with it. Either you have one swapped in, OR you have a 3.02 trans and some of the numbers are off..

The problem there would be that the stock turbo transmission has the 2.86:1 ring and pinion set.

Stock turbo trans: all 3.02 FD.
the 2.78 FD came in SOME tbi cars, never turbo. BUT, some tbis were also 3.02. The only good way to tell between the two from the outside is to pop off the side cover and count teeth on the transfer gears.



Thus the ONLY way to gear it down lower than stock without changing out the transfer shaft (pinion) and ring gear is the 1.22 transfer gears which are pretty rare. The neon 1.04 transfers would not significantly change the gears from the 1.06 you have, and it'd be going in the wrong direction.

If you change out the ring and pinion to the 3.05 set from the tbi trannies and keep the transfer gears you already have, youd get the 3.22 FD.

[turbovanman²]

Well, IF my numbers and your tach, etc, are reasonably correct, that would imply you have the 2.78 ratio.. but no turbo cars came with it. Either you have one swapped in, OR you have a 3.02 trans and some of the numbers are off..

The problem there would be that the stock turbo transmission has the 2.86:1 ring and pinion set.

Stock turbo trans: all 3.02 FD.
the 2.78 FD came in SOME tbi cars, never turbo. BUT, some tbis were also 3.02. The only good way to tell between the two from the outside is to pop off the side cover and count teeth on the transfer gears.



Thus the ONLY way to gear it down lower than stock without changing out the transfer shaft (pinion) and ring gear is the 1.22 transfer gears which are pretty rare. The neon 1.04 transfers would not significantly change the gears from the 1.06 you have, and it'd be going in the wrong direction.

If you change out the ring and pinion to the 3.05 set from the tbi trannies and keep the transfer gears you already have, youd get the 3.22 FD.

Your math won't work as you can't take into effect converter slip. Mine is at like 33-3800 on the freeway due to converter slip, a smaller lighter car will be around 3000 rpm.

I put .91 transfer gears in mine, its a 2.60 final drive and only dropped me about 300 rpm on the highway, damn tool shed.

[Vigo]

Converter slip would make the RPM higher relative to the trap speed, so you can account for it somewhat. It can only go one direction.

[turbovanman²]

Converter slip would make the RPM higher relative to the trap speed, so you can account for it somewhat. It can only go one direction.

Yep, I had a tighter converter made but then my spool up suffered.

Going to a LU this time out.

[Juggy]

Thanks for all the tips guys, going for the 23" m/h. wanting to get back to the track. whats the lowest mph you have seen with these cars and run a 12.99

12.89 @ 98mph in a full weight P body 2.2 5 spd with 23.5" slicks

[Bear]

Thanks for all the tips guys, going for the 23" m/h. wanting to get back to the track. whats the lowest mph you have seen with these cars and run a 12.99

I've gone 13.09 at 99mph.....

And a side note here, I have had an adjustable Zener diode setup go out of adjustment from wheel hop issues slowly over time this may be exactly what happened to you.