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Kreel
07-20-2010, 12:27 AM
I know I've been saying it awhile but I have finally come to create a project log for my AWD build. First off I want to say that I've officially completed the AWD conversion for a 3.0L and have been driving it around for a few days. I have several hundred km's on it with no signs of failure yet. Since I'm breaking in a new clutch it has not undergone and serious abuse yet. Soon though, real soon :thumb:

I've been working on this project for ~3 months. For this project I started with a 1991 Dodge Grand Caravan LE with a factory 3.3L w/ AWD. I'm not particularly thrilled by the lackluster performance of the 3.3/3.8 engines. To be fair, most of it is due to A-604. I am, however, a fan of the 3.0L engines and their potential. The addition of a 5-speed transmission was enough for me to go through with this project. AWD was just icing on the cake. Since nobody had 100% confirmed that the PTU will fit behind a 3.0L I figured I'd try it out. Lostaboost had done a lot of the heavy lifting as far as the diff is concerned. If it weren't for him I probably wouldn't of tried in the first place. I did things a little differently which I'll try to explain. I took a fair amount of pictures so if you don't see something or want me to explain something further I will try my best :thumb:

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/CaravanAWDProject003.jpg

Here's the van with the 3.3L before I pulled it out. Holy crap was that painful. I'll gladly pull 5 3.0L engines before one 3.3L.

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/CaravanAWDProject008.jpg

Donor car. It was cheap and paid for itself even though I had to travel 8 hours to get it. Factory 3.0L 5-speed under the hood.

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/tvstand023.jpg

I couldn't resist cleaning it up. I ended up having a couple dropped valve guides so I yanked the heads, had them replaced, did a little porting, cleaning, etc, etc.

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/PTU005.jpg

PTU mounted to the 5-speed transmission. Instead of drilling and tapping the case I opted to weld on extensions and re-drill holes into the adapter plate. It ended up working out ok. I did have to grind a bit from the PTU to make the bolts fit. I used the upper left bolt as the guide just like lostaboost.

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/PTU008.jpg

Here's a closer look at the modified adapter plate.

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/PTU015.jpg

I shaved just a bit out of the PTU. I actually had 1 PTU snap on me when I was putting a bolt in. I'm not sure if it was pinched or if I just took to much material out. The second PTU I didn't take near as much out and I shaved the bolts to make it fit more easily.

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/TransmissionDifferences006.jpg

Just a comparison to show the difference between the AWD diff (left) and 5-speed diff (right).

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/A-543PreMod004.jpg

This was one of the initial mock-ups just to show myself that it would work.

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/PTU010.jpg

Here is the modified AWD diff. This is where I did things differently than lotsaboost. Instead of modifying the ring gear I opted to modified the diff. So I had the machine shop add a ring so my ring gear would sit centered. It was recommended to me that the amount I was taking off would not provide a large enough lip to center the ring gear. It's hard to tell but I had 35 thou taken off the diff. What I did was checked the wear pattern for the stock diff, then compared it to the wear pattern for an unmodified diff and determined how much I needed to take off. After machining it was pretty darn close to a stock wear pattern. It's a bit of a rough measurement but as far as I'm concerned, if I'm able to do a 5k launch in a 4000 lb van and not shear the teeth off then this should be acceptable. Worst case scenario I put an auto in ;)

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/PTU012.jpg

One thing I noticed when I had everything bolted up is that the diff bolts came real close to the case, REAL close. So close that I actually had to grind them to make them fit. Again, it's a little hokey and there are better ways to do things, but I feel that I'm not affecting the integrity of the bolt.

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/PTU004.jpg

The 3.0L exhaust is very close but not quite the same as the 3.3L exhaust. It sits lower and protrudes closer to the firewall. All I did was chop out the cat and weld in a slightly shorter straight pipe. It is really tight back there with maybe 1/2" of clearance between the exhaust and the k-frame so I have urethane mounts keeping the engine in place. With stock rubber ones it would surely smash and break the exhaust. It still might but so far it is holding up.

So there you have it. It's a far cry from the 10+ pages of updates on TD but it is a start. I believe in sharing this knowledge and I'd love to see more AWD projects down the road. I'm certain there's more things that can improved upon from what I've done. I'll keep updating this thread as progress goes on.

I'm about half-way through breaking in my new clutch. I've got some small issues to work through but I should be attempting some wicked launches shortly. If it survives on the street I'll be taking it to the track. I'll also be installed MS2 shortly to see what kind of gains I can get. My engine is mildly modified but I expect to see some decent numbers. Even without launching this van feels considerably faster through first and second than my old 3.0L duster. At least it feels that way :p And if I can't get good numbers NA then I'm going to slap an m90 on it :D

turbokid
07-20-2010, 01:58 AM
m90 would be sick. say hello to awd burnouts =)
Awd may someday be common place. Least I hope =)

turbovanmanČ
07-20-2010, 02:32 AM
Thanks for sharing, :thumb:

Now you need a blower or turbo, :evil:

ohiorob
07-20-2010, 05:54 AM
Awesome project :thumb:. It must be a blast to drive.

RoadWarrior222
07-20-2010, 11:12 AM
Awesomosity!

Matt86
07-20-2010, 08:50 PM
That is AWESOME! I knew it could be done with some minor modifications. Interesting you chose a LWB van, I would have gone with a SWB to make up for the minor HP/torque drop the 3.0 swap has but AWD SWB vans are damn near impossible to find.

I bet that sucker will do great in the snow. I have no snow down here so AWD is useless but no more tire spins on take off!

Kreel
07-20-2010, 09:11 PM
That is AWESOME! I knew it could be done with some minor modifications. Interesting you chose a LWB van, I would have gone with a SWB to make up for the minor HP/torque drop the 3.0 swap has but AWD SWB vans are damn near impossible to find.

I bet that sucker will do great in the snow. I have no snow down here so AWD is useless but no more tire spins on take off!

Thanks! I did have a SWB van but it was rusted to hell so I opted for 1 of the 2 LWB AWD vans I have. If performance was my #1 choice I would have transferred the SWB AWD to a Caravan CV. Instead I chose the luxury LE trim complete with Infinity sound system and power everything :D

I'd guesstimate that my 3.0L is putting out more power than the original 3.3L. Stock is what, 160/190 for the 3.3L? I'm probably close to 170/200. If I do cams and exhaust and MS2 that'll be even higher :thumb:

Vigo
07-21-2010, 12:01 AM
Stock is what, 160/190 for the 3.3L?

Most 3.0 fans wouldnt admit it, but yes, i think you are right based on the way my dynasty ran and some numbers crunching. The old ones are rated stock at 150/180. I think in 94 they rerated them to 164/192 or something like that. Allpar would know.

RoadWarrior222
07-21-2010, 09:41 AM
I don't think they had the same output more than 2 years running, they were up and down according to where they fit on the marketing diagram that year.

I have driven a handful of 3.3 and 3.8s they just feel a lot different, there's "no drama" pull there, but it's boring. Must be the curve shapes or something. 3.0s just feel more perky, I think the 3.3/3.8 are for people scared of taking an engine over 3000 RPM. Sure you must be able to "do something" with them, but somehow it's a soulless motor. Think it's because they put the cams in the wrong place and somewhere in your butt dyno processing circuits you fear bending pushrods.

Reaper1
07-21-2010, 04:36 PM
I don't think they had the same output more than 2 years running, they were up and down according to where they fit on the marketing diagram that year.

I have driven a handful of 3.3 and 3.8s they just feel a lot different, there's "no drama" pull there, but it's boring. Must be the curve shapes or something. 3.0s just feel more perky, I think the 3.3/3.8 are for people scared of taking an engine over 3000 RPM. Sure you must be able to "do something" with them, but somehow it's a soulless motor. Think it's because they put the cams in the wrong place and somewhere in your butt dyno processing circuits you fear bending pushrods.

THAT is funny stuff right there! LOL


Good job on the swap, Kreel! It's really cool that not only did you get it done, and running, but you're driving it around as well!

Now, get that clutch broken in and lets see some launch videos! ;)

cobra2411
07-21-2010, 04:43 PM
Boing!

Forced induction would be killer, although there is someone selling 10:1 pistons and cams for the 3.0...

Kreel
07-21-2010, 05:34 PM
THAT is funny stuff right there! LOL


Good job on the swap, Kreel! It's really cool that not only did you get it done, and running, but you're driving it around as well!

Now, get that clutch broken in and lets see some launch videos! ;)

Thanks :) It really is a blast to drive. I'm still being pretty gentle on it while I'm breaking it in. Launch time will come shortly and there will be vids. I should have MS2 installed soon so I'll test out launch control at at the same time :thumb:


Boing!

Forced induction would be killer, although there is someone selling 10:1 pistons and cams for the 3.0...

Yeah, I tried but missed out on those. However, the second I get my hands on an m90 I'll be mocking it up on top of the plenum :D

Vigo
07-21-2010, 05:42 PM
Hey guys, i got an idea!! Lets take the 3.0 motor and put longer runners, smaller plenum, add .8L, keep the same throttle body, same size exhaust manifolds, etc, and see what happens!

Well, thats a 3.8. You get more torque, but thats it. Because just like a 3.0 gets power from going to a 52mm throttle body which is still too small for a 3.0, the 3.3/3.8 are choked by the stock intake and the same size throttle body with more displacement.

When mitsu put 10:1 pistons, higher-rpm cams, and a ~60mm tb on the 3.0, they got 160hp at the crank. When Dodge put better-sized intake tract on the 3.8, it made 215hp at the crank.

But since the 3.3/3.8 manifolds are one piece and you cant just unbolt them and knock out a divider to double the plenum volume and bolt on an upgraded throttle body without even porting the plenum opening.. nobody improves the 3.3/3.8 intake side, so they are held back by that. If dodge made it as easy on 3.3/3.8 as on 3.0, people would do it and there would be results to talk about.

j4278h
07-21-2010, 09:23 PM
why not take the newer improved plastic intake and bolt the complete thing onto a 3.8?

Kreel
07-21-2010, 10:32 PM
Hey guys, i got an idea!! Lets take the 3.0 motor and put longer runners, smaller plenum, add .8L, keep the same throttle body, same size exhaust manifolds, etc, and see what happens!

Well, thats a 3.8. You get more torque, but thats it. Because just like a 3.0 gets power from going to a 52mm throttle body which is still too small for a 3.0, the 3.3/3.8 are choked by the stock intake and the same size throttle body with more displacement.

When mitsu put 10:1 pistons, higher-rpm cams, and a ~60mm tb on the 3.0, they got 160hp at the crank. When Dodge put better-sized intake tract on the 3.8, it made 215hp at the crank.

But since the 3.3/3.8 manifolds are one piece and you cant just unbolt them and knock out a divider to double the plenum volume and bolt on an upgraded throttle body without even porting the plenum opening.. nobody improves the 3.3/3.8 intake side, so they are held back by that. If dodge made it as easy on 3.3/3.8 as on 3.0, people would do it and there would be results to talk about.

No, the biggest thing holding back the 3.3/3.8 is it's amazing amount of transmission choices ;)

I don't want to turn this thread into a 3.0 vs 3.3/3.8 debate. That's not what this thread is about. Start up another one and I'll come in fists swinging :thumb:

zin
07-22-2010, 01:17 AM
Looking good!:thumb: Personally I don't have much experience with the V6s, but I'll bet if you do forced induction, or a 50-75HP shot of nitrous, it WILL get with the program, and test the integrity of your mods! :D

In fact, adding nitrous is one of the ways Ford "torture tested" some of their cars and trucks (mostly trucks), I know because I sold them the stuff!

Anyway, it's looking good and I'm very interested in how your PTU/diff adaption mods work out.

Mike

RoadWarrior222
07-22-2010, 10:29 AM
Because just like a 3.0 gets power from going to a 52mm throttle body which is still too small for a 3.0,

Sixes can cope a liiiiittle better with a smaller TB, than a i4 or v8 can... Just because the next cylinder is just picking up flow while the previous one is tailing off. This tends to give you a more constant induction velocity. I think actually there might be a slight advantage in keeping the TB just small enough to keep induction momentum more constant. More so on a six than others. I think therefore you are not too badly off with a TB that would be "optimal" on a 2.0 i4 or that has nominal HP rating of about 2/3 what you're trying to make.

I'm thinking out a plenum mod that turns linear induction momentum into circular, and sort of stores it temporarily, then lets it switch between banks easily. Basically imagine a plenum with the divider only half cut, such that vortexes are encouraged to form either side, and the bottom of one can feed the top of the other through kind of figure 8 cross in the middle. Seems to me that just opening up the plenum has one cylinder trying to haul the air into it, then the opposite cylinder working against that, well at an angle, but it seems like it's changing the flow direction through too sharp an angle to be very efficient. It's no turbo but I think it can get the VE up and possibly allow slight ram effect overpressure. Anyway, I think it's the difference between trying to put a semi-truck through a 6 box maneuvering course, or a kind of chicane, or instead popping it into the 3rd dimension and having a neat "wall of death" effect that flips it over backwards instead of trying to haul it round sideways.

Vigo
07-22-2010, 01:08 PM
I don't want to turn this thread into a 3.0 vs 3.3/3.8 debate.

You didnt.. i was mostly responding to RW222's comments, though i didnt quote him to make it obvious.

Anyway, i dont see anyone debating my points on what holds back the 3.3/3.8, so i dont think your thread got turned into a debate.;)

Kreel
07-22-2010, 01:55 PM
You didnt.. i was mostly responding to RW222's comments, though i didnt quote him to make it obvious.

Anyway, i dont see anyone debating my points on what holds back the 3.3/3.8, so i dont think your thread got turned into a debate.;)

Nah, it's all good. I just wanted to catch it before it did turn into a debate ;) Although I admit it could have easily been me who kept things going. We'll save that for another day...another thread :p

Matt86
07-22-2010, 10:22 PM
I think a GM 3.8 Supercharger would fit quite nicely under the hood of a 2nd gen minivan. I had an extra 3.8 SC sitting around and with some creative modifications to the 3.0 upper intake plenum would make it work.

I noticed a huge burst of performance when I did the A543 swap in my 94, good enough for me, I remember what torque steer is now! I think its the fastest of my two vehicles, and the least suspecting :)

W.P._Turbocars
07-23-2010, 01:18 AM
thanks for the write up. will definately help with my awd rampage swap

Kreel
07-23-2010, 09:01 AM
thanks for the write up. will definately help with my awd rampage swap

No problem. You want to go with the auto, correct? You likely already know, but using an A-604 is even simpler as you just swap over the diff and PTU components from an AWD van. No machining necessary (at least in that department ;)).

lotsaboost
07-23-2010, 05:18 PM
AW Yea! Another one. I knew if I'd start lurking again I'd see something good. Good job Kreel. :clap:
Mod's, AWD Forum maybe?

Carlos

Kreel
07-25-2010, 04:07 PM
AW Yea! Another one. I knew if I'd start lurking again I'd see something good. Good job Kreel. :clap:
Mod's, AWD Forum maybe?

Carlos

Thanks Carlos. I couldn't have done it without your guidance first :clap:

Not much to update. I'm picking away at the small things when I have time. Clutch break-in is still on-going. It's probably broken in by now but I'll keep going just to be sure. I've actually been spending more time working around the house then on the van, lol.

On a slightly related note I was going to the junkyard for some stuff. About 10 feet in I notice a 97ish grand prix. I look at the side and it has GTP badging. Sweet! I look under the hood and there sits an unmolested m90!!! Half an hour later I'm sailing down the road with a supercharger in the back. It's a lot bigger and heavier than I figured. It's tempting, but I'm going to try and not rush into mounting it on top of the plenum.

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/m90Supercharger002.jpg

turbokid
07-25-2010, 05:53 PM
LOL m90=fun with awd.
Hows the AWD working out so far?

Kreel
07-25-2010, 07:53 PM
LOL m90=fun with awd.
Hows the AWD working out so far?

Haha, that's the plan :thumb: So far I haven't noticed any issues with the AWD. I've been bopping around town, went for an hour trip on the highway, aggressive driving, granny driving. Launches are the last thing I need to put it through :eyebrows:

Vigo
07-25-2010, 10:07 PM
Haha, i wish my m90 had the TB coming right off of it. I need to build an adapter inlet pipe for mine before i can run it on a 3.0.

Keep us updated!

Kreel
08-20-2010, 09:27 AM
Update: I dropped my K-frame and had a better bobble strut bracket welded on. I also re-sealed a couple leaks on the transmission while I had the K-frame out. I dumped the oil and there was definitely some shavings in it. I expected there to be some wear-in period. I have a pic on my computer but it really didn't look bad at all for the first 500 km.

Oh, and I've installed MS2 now. The van is running and has a rough tune on it. It has a ways to go but I'd say that the power feels like it's close to stock.

I've done a couple 4k launches. Basically the front tires go "err", I move about 5 feet, then I bog :o Soooo, I need to get a wideband on and figure out how to get my low down power back before I start upping the launch RPM. I must say though, for a 4000lb NA minivan this thing hauls :thumb:

Juggy
08-21-2010, 05:18 PM
sweet van!
got some pics???

would love to see ya takin it down the track. you'd smoke all 4 tires off the line and silence the complete grandstands leaving everyone wondering; WTF just happened there?!?! i must be dreaming :lol:

Kreel
08-23-2010, 11:26 PM
sweet van!
got some pics???

would love to see ya takin it down the track. you'd smoke all 4 tires off the line and silence the complete grandstands leaving everyone wondering; WTF just happened there?!?! i must be dreaming :lol:

Thanks. I need to work on my tune a bit more before taking it down the track. I'm hoping to go in 2 weeks :eyebrows:

...and I washed my van off and took a pic. It actually looks not bad from far away :thumb:

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/Aug2010AWDCaravan005.jpg

W.P._Turbocars
08-24-2010, 01:17 AM
No problem. You want to go with the auto, correct? You likely already know, but using an A-604 is even simpler as you just swap over the diff and PTU components from an AWD van. No machining necessary (at least in that department ;)).

Well man I can't go the easiest way out. It'll be getting a 4 puck, 5 speed and a Holset. :thumb:

Ondonti
08-24-2010, 02:11 AM
haha cool on the modified adapter plate. that is what I wanted to do. I wanted to be able to swap transmissions without modifying them.
What about a little bit of welding on the PTU to replace the supports you have to cut out? I was hoping no cutting would be required but I didn't ever check. Did it break while you were bolting it down? Also did you use a solid mount for the PTU or the rubber thingy? Do you have stockish engine mounts? Worried about breaking that PTU now that you say you broke one just bolting it on.

I don't quite catch you on the ring gear mod there. Took 35 thousandths off from the top side so the ring gear would sit slightly lower? Thats all you did? :)
Don't share that silly scaredness about the ring gear teeth mang! I don't wanna hear that negativity :P ;)

Did the same shop modify your driver side bearing cup? I am sorta paranoid about getting that done. How much was your machine work total? I would rather mail off my parts then get screwed locally.

Sharing is the 3.0 way ;)


I still have a huge project on my hands for my weird rear end setup. Backburner ain't even warm. :D

BTW I have a nice aggressive n/a timing map from mopar3.0. My timing map only has 4 n/a data points. I also have Nathans base spark tune.

You should have at least 38 degrees total timing (including base) at WOT above 3500 or 4000 rpms. Low timing = yuck performance. Wideband that baby!
Get it running decent before you slap on the m90.

WOT tuning on the megasquirt is super easy, so adding the m90 on a solid tune will just run raped right off the bat. Its all the drivability crap that I am hating. I am hating my accel enrichments right now. But when you go WOT it stops mattering :thumb:

Kreel
08-24-2010, 09:28 AM
Hehe, so many questions. I'm always willing to share so just ask :thumb:


haha cool on the modified adapter plate. that is what I wanted to do. I wanted to be able to swap transmissions without modifying them.

Thanks, I was going to modify the transmission since my TIG can't do steel that thick. But my father-in-law took care of that :eyebrows: I can't remember if I posted the pics here but I did need to grind a little out of the PTU for the bolt heads since the adapter plate bolts are for the 5-speed pattern, not the auto.



What about a little bit of welding on the PTU to replace the supports you have to cut out? I was hoping no cutting would be required but I didn't ever check. Did it break while you were bolting it down? Also did you use a solid mount for the PTU or the rubber thingy? Do you have stockish engine mounts? Worried about breaking that PTU now that you say you broke one just bolting it on.


So I have a couple things holding in the PTU. On the auto you have that bracket going from the diff pan to the PTU. I just tweaked the bobble strut bracket so it ties into the transmission and the PTU. On the other side there's the bracket that ties into the dog bone going down to the K-frame and another bracket going to the block. The bosses are way different from a 3.3L to a 3.0L but I was able to get another bracket made that serves the same purpose. I'm actually in the middle of tweaking it right now so I'll post pics once it's done. The original dog bone is still used as per stock. Nothing actually has to be done to the PTU to make it work. The block is extremely close to the PTU so I ground a bit out of one of the bosses on the block. You could grind the PTU too if you're really worried. When I broke the first PTU I'd guess it was some freak accident. I hadn't touched the block at this point and I was probably pinched on it which didn't help anything when I tried to bolt it down. The material is very thin in that area so it doesn't surprise me that it broke; it just pissed me off! My engine mounts are urethane filled with a solid bobble strut. I wouldn't run with anything less. The tightest area is the exhaust with maybe 1/2" of clearance. I tweaked the stock exhaust my cutting the cat out and replacing it with straight pipe. It works, but it's TIGHT. Stock mounts would destroy the pipe very quickly.



I don't quite catch you on the ring gear mod there. Took 35 thousandths off from the top side so the ring gear would sit slightly lower? Thats all you did? :)
Don't share that silly scaredness about the ring gear teeth mang! I don't wanna hear that negativity :P ;)

Did the same shop modify your driver side bearing cup? I am sorta paranoid about getting that done. How much was your machine work total? I would rather mail off my parts then get screwed locally.

Sharing is the 3.0 way ;)


Yes, that's all I did :D My goal was to line up the wear pattern the same way as the stock 5-speed. I checked stock, I checked an unmodified AWD set-up, I calculated the difference, crossed my fingers, and sent it out for machining. That's it! I didn't even have the bearing cup machined. As far as I could tell there was minimal difference between the 5-speed and auto bearing plate. I know lotsaboost did more than me, and maybe that is the better way to do things; but, I've survived over 1000km so far. I inspected things at 500km and there have been no signs of failure. Only time will tell. My machine work on the diff was around $150.



I still have a huge project on my hands for my weird rear end setup. Backburner ain't even warm. :D

BTW I have a nice aggressive n/a timing map from mopar3.0. My timing map only has 4 n/a data points. I also have Nathans base spark tune.

You should have at least 38 degrees total timing (including base) at WOT above 3500 or 4000 rpms. Low timing = yuck performance. Wideband that baby!
Get it running decent before you slap on the m90.

WOT tuning on the megasquirt is super easy, so adding the m90 on a solid tune will just run raped right off the bat. Its all the drivability crap that I am hating. I am hating my accel enrichments right now. But when you go WOT it stops mattering :thumb:

Yeah, I've felt what no timing feels like, lol. I keep throwing timing at it and it keeps liking it. Wideband will probably go on tonight. m90 is hopes and dreams right now. I'll probably mock it up and maybe run it a little bit before winter. It won't be full out until next year though. Time is what I really need. Man, if only I could have just a full week-end to sit in the garage and tinker with this...

zin
08-24-2010, 07:25 PM
Thanks. I need to work on my tune a bit more before taking it down the track. I'm hoping to go in 2 weeks :eyebrows:

...and I washed my van off and took a pic. It actually looks not bad from far away :thumb:

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/Aug2010AWDCaravan005.jpg

Are those snowflakes 5 x 100? or are they the larger 5 x 114? I would expect they are the larger pattern, but...

Mike

RoadWarrior222
08-24-2010, 09:16 PM
There would be a buttload of work getting AWD to 5x100.

Kreel
08-24-2010, 09:39 PM
Are those snowflakes 5 x 100? or are they the larger 5 x 114? I would expect they are the larger pattern, but...

Mike

They are the uber rare 5 x 114 snowflake rims, original to the van :thumb:

zin
08-25-2010, 04:51 PM
They are the uber rare 5 x 114 snowflake rims, original to the van :thumb:

That's what I figured.... I've just never seen a set that size, still a 15" rim, right?

I'm still undecided on converting the pattern to 5 x 100, it would let me use the Centurions, but might not let me run the 11" brakes, plus, I'd have to get another set of wheels.... but that's just me getting the cart before the horse...

Mike

Aries_Turbo
08-25-2010, 05:56 PM
I'm still undecided on converting the pattern to 5 x 100, it would let me use the Centurions, but might not let me run the 11" brakes, plus, I'd have to get another set of wheels.... but that's just me getting the cart before the horse...

Mike

im using dual bolt pattern wheels so i dont have to do anything.

brian

Juggy
08-25-2010, 06:14 PM
Thanks. I need to work on my tune a bit more before taking it down the track. I'm hoping to go in 2 weeks :eyebrows:

...and I washed my van off and took a pic. It actually looks not bad from far away :thumb:

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/Aug2010AWDCaravan005.jpg

i think you need some daytona struts and springs! how do they lower the rear? just flip the leaf spring over?

not a big fan of the running boards, but to each their own :nod:

zin
08-25-2010, 06:40 PM
im using dual bolt pattern wheels so i dont have to do anything.

brian

:p Mr Schmarty Pants!

Come to think of it, that might be a good way to go if you wanted to have "track tires" available for two cars with different patterns...

Mike

Aries_Turbo
08-25-2010, 07:38 PM
:p Mr Schmarty Pants!

Come to think of it, that might be a good way to go if you wanted to have "track tires" available for two cars with different patterns...

Mike

hehe.

that is part of the reason i have 2 sets of dual bolt pattern wheels. one for the awd stuff, the other so a friend and i can share slicks for his 3g eclipse and my remaining fwd cars.

Brian

Kreel
08-25-2010, 09:07 PM
i think you need some daytona struts and springs! how do they lower the rear? just flip the leaf spring over?

not a big fan of the running boards, but to each their own :nod:

I think I need some koni's actually :thumb: I don't want to lower it much, if at all. The AWD's have beefier leafs in the rear and I want to keep it that way. I'll probably just get bigger tires to fill up that wheel gap, lol.

I honestly don't care about the running boards. They were there when I got it, and until I start fixing up the body they'll likely stay there. Plus it adds to the sleeper look ;)

Ondonti
08-25-2010, 09:16 PM
So you just swapped in an driver side auto bearing retainer without modifying anything? Good thinking :)

I thought it seemed real different.

Kreel
10-02-2010, 08:00 PM
The results are in; the stock AWD components can take abuse! I was able to make it out to the local track today and went through a dozen passes. Unfortunately I'm still dealing with some issues that really prevented me from getting some good times.

The day started off really cold. I was one of the first to go down the track. First launch was @ 4k. It felt like I blew away the tires...2.8 60 ft confirmed that. Second launch about the same. Slightly better 60 ft. I took it back to the pit, aired down the tires to 30 psi (205/70 R15 all seasons). Added some fuel, bumped up timing across the board. Next pass down I hooked better but nearly the whole way down the track the van is stuttering. This happened nearly the rest of the day to some degree. My guess is that I need to re-gap my spark plugs because I have so much advance. The most timing I ran was 36* at WOT @ 4k+. I didn't even get to step it up to 38* It was like the engine cuts out intermittently...so I progressively backed off on timing. I lost a lot of power doing this and my E/T's show it.

As the day went on my 60 ft's came down as I got my technique down. 28 psi in the tires combined with 5k+ launches netted several 2.4 60 ft's. Not bad for a 4000 lb minivan, but still lots of room for improvement. I actually ended up getting too much traction and bogged on almost every launch save for the first few. Just to make things interested I launched bouncing off the limiter. It still bogged, and that launch was close to 7k by the time I dumped the clutch.

So where did that leave my times? I netted a best of 17.7 @ 76 mph. I think I have a lot left on the table with my tune. Anytime I'm at 5k+ the tach just CRAWLS up. When I was stuttering I could actually see my tach dropping and feel me slowing down. So a tune + better driving should net mid-high 16's. Add in some cams, headers, and exhaust and it's a solid high 15 second minivan. Top if off with a supercharger and the skys the limit :eyebrows:

Overall I'm very happy with how the van performed. I did want to get a 16 second slip. Can't win 'em all. Although, it has gone through over 20 4k+ launches which I think is a testament to its durability. I have a video too! I'll try to get it up tonight :thumb:

turbovanmanČ
10-02-2010, 08:23 PM
Nice, :D

Really suprised on the high 60ft's though, figured AWD would be around 2.0 or better.



There would be a buttload of work getting AWD to 5x100.

Why, use bolt on adapters, I use a set for spacers but you can get them to alter your bolt pattern too, IE 5x114-5x100.


They are the uber rare 5 x 114 snowflake rims, original to the van :thumb:

I had a set, lol, came off the 90 John Deer van, Johhny at PB bought them.


I think I need some koni's actually :thumb: I don't want to lower it much, if at all. The AWD's have beefier leafs in the rear and I want to keep it that way. I'll probably just get bigger tires to fill up that wheel gap, lol.

I honestly don't care about the running boards. They were there when I got it, and until I start fixing up the body they'll likely stay there. Plus it adds to the sleeper look ;)

They still have Van Koni's so your in luck, but don't lower it more than 1 inch otherwise you'll bottom out the strut mount on the strut tower, :(

Kreel
10-02-2010, 08:55 PM
Nice, :D

Really suprised on the high 60ft's though, figured AWD would be around 2.0 or better.



Yeah, I think I can get it down to a 2.0 with practice. There wasn't much difference in how it "felt" from a 2.4 to a 2.8. And I can definitely feel it bogging about 20 feet off the line. I'd guess I'm losing at least 2/10ths from that bog alone. Fix the tune, fix the launch, fix the driver, and I'll see some sweet 60ft's :thumb:

Also keep in mind that my race weight is likely close to 4000 lbs. A stock DSM is ~700 lbs lighter and can cut 1.8/1.9 60 ft's. If I can hit 2.0 without any additional mods I'll be very happy.

Aries_Turbo
10-02-2010, 10:24 PM
i dont know if you are going to be able to get a 2.0 60ft without more power. you have 150ish hp in a heavy van vs a lighter dsm with 210 stock. it takes power to get to the 60ft beams faster. supercharger should do it though. :)

you running a stock ECU?

good to hear the stuff can take beatings though. :)

Brian

Kreel
10-02-2010, 11:34 PM
i dont know if you are going to be able to get a 2.0 60ft without more power. you have 150ish hp in a heavy van vs a lighter dsm with 210 stock. it takes power to get to the 60ft beams faster. supercharger should do it though. :)

you running a stock ECU?

good to hear the stuff can take beatings though. :)

Brian

I don't have it ATM due to my tune, but once I get things sorted out I should be around 180/200 hp/trq plus a wider powerband. Comparing myself to 1g DSM with 195hp it's not too far off. The weight is where the difference is which is why I don't think I'll ever hit 1.X numbers without boost. I'd be ecstatic to hit a 2.0 in a full-weight minivan without boost on street tires :p

I have the stock ECU in place to help control my dash, alternator, cruise control, and AC. Megasquirt does the rest :thumb:

turbovanmanČ
10-03-2010, 04:23 AM
i dont know if you are going to be able to get a 2.0 60ft without more power. you have 150ish hp in a heavy van vs a lighter dsm with 210 stock. it takes power to get to the 60ft beams faster. supercharger should do it though. :)


good to hear the stuff can take beatings though. :)

Brian

Good point and no doubt, :thumb:

Vigo
10-03-2010, 02:33 PM
Glad you made it to the track.. its better to know what's NOT working and fix it, than go around assuming it's good. Sounds like your launch technique is going to take a lot more practice.

I also think you will need more power to get to a 2.0 60'.

I got 2.5 60's in my tbi/5spd van, and i think that was power limited because i got several what i would call perfect launches, some with more wheelspin or clutch-riding than others and couldnt break past 2.5 with 100hp :p

Kreel
10-03-2010, 04:44 PM
Glad you made it to the track.. its better to know what's NOT working and fix it, than go around assuming it's good. Sounds like your launch technique is going to take a lot more practice.

I also think you will need more power to get to a 2.0 60'.

I got 2.5 60's in my tbi/5spd van, and i think that was power limited because i got several what i would call perfect launches, some with more wheelspin or clutch-riding than others and couldnt break past 2.5 with 100hp :p

I'm glad too. It was the absolute last chance I had before the track closed for the year. I wish I wasn't rained out earlier in the year because I still had the stock computer and I wanted to compare tunes. I know it sounds bogus right now, but I feel like I have a TON of power left on the table. The "butt dyno" between 28* and 32* was noticeable, and it started breaking up when I went to 34*. I'm targeting 38* once I get things cleared up. And yes my driving sucked. Just too many variables going on to really nail it down :o

And the moment you've all been waiting for. A video! Enjoy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW-SG9sbEK0

Reaper1
10-03-2010, 06:30 PM
Interesting that the front wheels spin as much as they do before the viscous couple does its job. I would have figured it would have been tighter than that. I'm even more interested to know how it does with more power behind it.

RoadWarrior222
10-03-2010, 07:12 PM
Yarr, what fluid is in that?

Vigo
10-03-2010, 08:02 PM
In what? The viscous coupling?



Looking at the vid, my first thought is the track surface must have been pretty cold.. what did it warm up to on that run in the video?

I think i heard Brent mention one time that he was running 38* of timing because he had no timing control with the stock computer, so i am assuming that that's the max total timing in the OEM tune, plus or minus a few for your base timing setting. If your AFRs are good there has to be something going on in the ignition side for it to be breaking up..

Reaper1
10-03-2010, 08:13 PM
I'm interested to know what they used in the viscous coupling as well. From what I understand, most use a type of silicone fluid that actually increases its viscosity as it encounters shear. I've heard that there are companies that rebuild these units and that there are different fluids and possible ways to beef them up. Makes ya wonder what the possibilites are! :)

RoadWarrior222
10-03-2010, 08:23 PM
Add more cornstarch? :D

Kreel
10-03-2010, 10:49 PM
You can actually feel the VCU kicking in. The video is a bit hard to see but you can see the front tires spinning before the rears do. On the street you can hear the tires chirp for 1/2 a second before the rear tires start hooking. Now I don't know if my VCU is "tired" from 300k on the clock, or if this is normal? We'll see how it stands up to abuse :eyebrows:

The track was freezing in the morning. It was 1* overnight and only around 8* by the time I made the first passes. Later in the day like the pass in the vid I think it was around 12*.

Vigo
10-04-2010, 12:06 AM
That definitely was impacting your traction big time. Unfortunately in your area i guess there'll be no opportunities to test traction on a warmer surface for.. half a year? lol

Shadow
10-04-2010, 12:51 AM
Nice vid! Was cool seeing you at the track, too bad I couldn't stick around! :(

Kreel
10-04-2010, 01:46 AM
That definitely was impacting your traction big time. Unfortunately in your area i guess there'll be no opportunities to test traction on a warmer surface for.. half a year? lol

Lol, that's Winnipeg. From +40 to -40 in 6 months :p


Nice vid! Was cool seeing you at the track, too bad I couldn't stick around! :(

Yeah, it was great to see you there too. Too bad about what happened to your car. Did you get it fixed up and racing on Sunday?

Turbulence
10-04-2010, 01:47 AM
The track was freezing in the morning. It was 1* overnight and only around 8* by the time I made the first passes. Later in the day like the pass in the vid I think it was around 12*.

That would be celsius correct?

Martin

turbovanmanČ
10-04-2010, 01:55 AM
The track was freezing in the morning. It was 1* overnight and only around 8* by the time I made the first passes. Later in the day like the pass in the vid I think it was around 12*.

Already that cold, damn, makes me glad I pay what I pay to live here, sometimes, :o



Lol, that's Winnipeg. From +40 to -40 in 6 months :p



Yeah, it was great to see you there too. Too bad about what happened to your car. Did you get it fixed up and racing on Sunday?

Oh, oh, what happened?

Ondonti
10-04-2010, 06:14 AM
In what? The viscous coupling?



Looking at the vid, my first thought is the track surface must have been pretty cold.. what did it warm up to on that run in the video?

I think i heard Brent mention one time that he was running 38* of timing because he had no timing control with the stock computer, so i am assuming that that's the max total timing in the OEM tune, plus or minus a few for your base timing setting. If your AFRs are good there has to be something going on in the ignition side for it to be breaking up..

26 = computer advance, 12 = OEM base timing.

Dropping to 28 degrees = huge power loss.
I didn't see anything about what your AFR was. If he had datalogged we would have a massive amount of data to work with.

What is the spark plug and plug gap and are you using New OEM wires or "performance ones" or what? Are your coil settings correct? Dwell settings? Base timing correct?

Megasquirt does not seem to ignite as well as the stock computer for me. 14psi was blowing out spark on a .30" gap for me using a 48,000 volt Ford 5.0 coil. I have the old discontinued ignition circuit that doesn't handle a lot of coil dwell. I was looking for into and it seems the neon guys have this same problem, that the OEM computer has HUGE dwell settings that the megasquirt with low power circuit cannot achieve. I think there are a few people running a chip that allows a much hotter Dwell but doesnt reset like the new current chip (I have the chip that is dead when it overheats AND sucks for dwell).
The coil does have its own good power supply, not using any OEM coil wiring.

I would worry more about getting the motor to make a clean pull with full timing then obsess about the AWD. Spinning the fronts = not bogging as hard so its not exactly a bad thing.

I would make sure the base ignition timing is correct then do a compression check for kicks. When the spark plugs are out, verify the gap and take a picture of them with them in order so we can look at each cylinder.
Make sure your coil wiring is very solid.

Kreel
10-04-2010, 10:12 AM
26 = computer advance, 12 = OEM base timing.

Dropping to 28 degrees = huge power loss.
I didn't see anything about what your AFR was. If he had datalogged we would have a massive amount of data to work with.

What is the spark plug and plug gap and are you using New OEM wires or "performance ones" or what? Are your coil settings correct? Dwell settings? Base timing correct?

Megasquirt does not seem to ignite as well as the stock computer for me. 14psi was blowing out spark on a .30" gap for me using a 48,000 volt Ford 5.0 coil. I have the old discontinued ignition circuit that doesn't handle a lot of coil dwell. I was looking for into and it seems the neon guys have this same problem, that the OEM computer has HUGE dwell settings that the megasquirt with low power circuit cannot achieve. I think there are a few people running a chip that allows a much hotter Dwell but doesnt reset like the new current chip (I have the chip that is dead when it overheats AND sucks for dwell).
The coil does have its own good power supply, not using any OEM coil wiring.

I would worry more about getting the motor to make a clean pull with full timing then obsess about the AWD. Spinning the fronts = not bogging as hard so its not exactly a bad thing.

I would make sure the base ignition timing is correct then do a compression check for kicks. When the spark plugs are out, verify the gap and take a picture of them with them in order so we can look at each cylinder.
Make sure your coil wiring is very solid.

Part of my problem was getting MS resets so I couldn't datalog. I fixed the problem and it was working the night before. When I went to the track I started getting noise immediately. I don't know what went wrong but it REALLY pissed me off. I had a wideband on and AFR's ranged from 10:1 to 13:1. I didn't play around much with the VE tables simply because I couldn't datalog. Too many things going on at once :o

The wires are aurora's, maybe a year old. Spark plugs are some champions, stock heat range. Gapped to .32" IIRC. Coil and dwell are set up correctly. Base timing set to 10* as is my trigger angle.

I would've loved to make a clean pass but because of my issues I said screw it and started paying more attention to the AWD. I checked compression last week and it was a solid 160. A couple cyl's were 158 and one was 164. Spark plugs didn't show much since the motor is running so rich at idle.

RoadWarrior222
10-04-2010, 11:01 AM
I always found 10* base is a bit pedestrian with a tendency to fall on it's face under high load in stock setup. Though if I was getting serious spark problems and had MS I'd go looking at which 6 banger EDIS setup to steal.

Kreel
10-04-2010, 11:50 AM
I always found 10* base is a bit pedestrian with a tendency to fall on it's face under high load in stock setup. Though if I was getting serious spark problems and had MS I'd go looking at which 6 banger EDIS setup to steal.

That's the same thing UnaClocker mentioned on the other site. I think I'll move to EDIS sooner rather then later. Regardless, I still want to figure out this problem for any other people who want to MS a 3.0L.

Shadow
10-04-2010, 09:18 PM
Oh, oh, what happened?

See my thread in the street story/race story section. Didn't want to jack up this thread.

Kreel
10-05-2010, 12:29 AM
Here's another video that my brother took with his iPhone. I don't have a 9 second car running beside me so it's a bit easier to hear :thumb:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYgv1nW5NDw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYgv1nW5NDw

Vigo
10-05-2010, 11:27 AM
That looked a lot better than the other one.. seems like you could have launched a little bit higher on that one.

What kind of clutch is in there again?

Kreel
10-05-2010, 12:35 PM
That looked a lot better than the other one.. seems like you could have launched a little bit higher on that one.

What kind of clutch is in there again?

It did look better. It was a slower run but I think that's one where I had the timing upped and the car just broke up in 3rd gear.

Clutchnet 6-puck solid hub. Pretty easy to drive but it's like a light switch if I'm not paying attention.

Vigo
10-05-2010, 02:13 PM
Is it on a stock pressure plate?

Ive driven Strax22's 95 turbo van with a sprung 6puck and it does seem to engage much nicer and less suddenly than the sprung 4 puck in my aries.. I have not driven a solid hub clutch yet, but i think my next clutch disc will be one.

Although, on a really heavy AWD vehicle i would probably go with a stiffer pressure plate and keep an organic disc because the ceramic pucks will glaze over if you get them hot (i.e. slipping on launch, maybe) and they dont come back from that unless you take them out and scuff it off.

What are your feelings about running shorter tires at the track?

Kreel
10-05-2010, 09:32 PM
Is it on a stock pressure plate?

Ive driven Strax22's 95 turbo van with a sprung 6puck and it does seem to engage much nicer and less suddenly than the sprung 4 puck in my aries.. I have not driven a solid hub clutch yet, but i think my next clutch disc will be one.

Although, on a really heavy AWD vehicle i would probably go with a stiffer pressure plate and keep an organic disc because the ceramic pucks will glaze over if you get them hot (i.e. slipping on launch, maybe) and they dont come back from that unless you take them out and scuff it off.

What are your feelings about running shorter tires at the track?

Yep, stock pressure plate. I'm sold on the 6-puck for a nice streetable clutch. The solid hub takes a bit to get used to but overall I think it's better. Less weight and no springs to pop out :thumb:

I've been pretty careful not to slip the clutch much while launching. My strategy is probably adding to the bogging. My thoughts are to dump the clutch quickly. I want to load up the VCU as fast as possible to get power going to the rear wheels.

If I was staying NA then I'd better match my tires. Right now they're over 26" tall! Something closer to 24" but much wider would be more ideal IMO.

Shadow
10-06-2010, 12:28 AM
Yep, stock pressure plate. I'm sold on the 6-puck for a nice streetable clutch. The solid hub takes a bit to get used to but overall I think it's better. Less weight and no springs to pop out :thumb:

I've been pretty careful not to slip the clutch much while launching. My strategy is probably adding to the bogging. My thoughts are to dump the clutch quickly. I want to load up the VCU as fast as possible to get power going to the rear wheels.

If I was staying NA then I'd better match my tires. Right now they're over 26" tall! Something closer to 24" but much wider would be more ideal IMO.

Why don't you want to slip the clutch?

Kreel
10-06-2010, 12:41 AM
Why don't you want to slip the clutch?

I shouldn't say I don't want to slip it at all...just minimize time spent slipping it. At least in comparison to a FWD. I want my rear tires to engage as quickly as possible and in order to do that I need the VCU to heat up and grab. I don't have any tests or comparisons to tell how fast the VCU engages when slipping vs. not slipping the clutch. My guess is the faster the clutch engages the faster the VCU engages. On top of it all I don't want to glaze my clutch hence why I dump it more often then I probably should :o

Shadow
10-06-2010, 12:49 AM
I shouldn't say I don't want to slip it at all...just minimize time spent slipping it. At least in comparison to a FWD. I want my rear tires to engage as quickly as possible and in order to do that I need the VCU to heat up and grab. I don't have any tests or comparisons to tell how fast the VCU engages when slipping vs. not slipping the clutch. My guess is the faster the clutch engages the faster the VCU engages. On top of it all I don't want to glaze my clutch hence why I dump it more often then I probably should :o

K, was just making sure you knew that it's alright to slip a ceramic or cerametalic clutch, specially a 6 puc. I never Dump the clutch on the Charger, but I never ride it either. What I call slip is just an easy let it out till it starts to engage and then as fast as your foot lifts.

Kreel
10-06-2010, 01:00 AM
K, was just making sure you knew that it's alright to slip a ceramic or cerametalic clutch, specially a 6 puc. I never Dump the clutch on the Charger, but I never ride it either. What I call slip is just an easy let it out till it starts to engage and then as fast as your foot lifts.

Ah ok, we're on the same page then :thumb:

Ondonti
10-08-2010, 05:01 AM
Well I wouldn't slip that setup because the plate is probably just on the verge of holding on during a 7000 dump, even if the disc is good.

I don't have MS reset problems........but everything is wired to one common grounding block. Everything. Not so great piggyback installs might lead you to half butt some of that. When I did my piggyback install as my practice install, I still ran new power wire directly from the battery with a relay to a little fuse block (chopped up stocker), so everything was cleaned up (not visually at the time, but electrically).
Local Neon guy parted out his cars multiple times because he could never get away from reset problems. He really didn't understand that the problem was him, not megasquirt. I remember asking him for some advice and then I realized he really had no idea what he was doing, he just followed someone else's directions and thought it was impossible to do anything but a piggyback.

The standard DIY style install is not a problem, and its not EDIS solvable. Resets are unrelated to your distributor. Its all about your wiring assuming your box is happy. Me and mopar3.0 are both running completely standalone. The only thing you can't get to work in standalone is the OEM tach. Everything else works if you wire it up, even the speedo. I just dropped a cheap tach into the same spot as OEM cause I don't care how it looks at this point. Even voltage regulation is easy to wire up.

Aries_Turbo
10-08-2010, 08:23 AM
grounds are important with a MS.

separating logic/sensor power and ignition/injector driver power is even more important.

the flyback power for the injectors should come from something like the fuel pump relay, not the MS board. same thing with the coil power.

Brian

Ondonti
10-08-2010, 10:24 PM
I have mine all run off a fuse block so everything gets its own power supply from a much larger diameter wire.

Kreel
10-11-2010, 01:05 AM
My resets are coming from noise from the alternator. I knew that since day one. My install is far from clean and I'm tapped into a lot of wires. On my CSX I'll be doing a standalone so I can actually make the wiring look decent :eyebrows: I don't why it didn't hit me to run the MS 12v on it's own relay! I'll probably do that first. My grounds are "ok" ATM. I'm pulling my van into the garage in a few weeks to take care of this a bunch of other little things that have been creeping up. My small leak at the PTU has turned into a larger leak :mad: I don't think it happened as a result of drag racing because I was good for a few days and many miles after I finished.

The 7k launch was an accident. I just remember seeing it hit 6.5k and rising so I estimated it was around 7k when the clutch grabbed. I won't be doing this on a regular basis. I could see regular 5k launches at the track though. Thoughts on upgrading my pressure plate? I chose this disc because I knew boost would be on the plate in the future. My expected power output is 300hp, 350hp tops. I expect the disc to hold but I was always leery on the stock PP. Being a budget build I shrugged it off at the time :p

Ondonti
10-11-2010, 09:02 AM
The disc will last as long as it doesn't slip from the weak plate. Slip and it will quickly wear down every slip, and it will never hold properly again. Once it does slip, just stop beating on it. The disc will hold again when you get a plate that is strong enough, without repucking.

Stock Turbo II plate would be a good cheap upgrade.

Or try cindy's cheap dual plate ($150? and it fits on the disc you already own), that will be enough to hold with your 6 puck. Its not crazy like the one I have.
I don't know much about her current single plate offerings when it comes to affordability or function.

Kreel
10-11-2010, 09:36 AM
I almost forgot I have a stock T3 PP sitting in the garage. My brother upgraded to a dual diaphragm so he has no use for it anymore. It held over 275 ft/lbs of torque on the dyno...I don't see any reason not to use it :D

Ondonti
10-11-2010, 10:10 AM
So i would say shoot for that, if THAT slips, then worry about spending more.

Scared to see whats up with your transfer case :(

Kreel
10-11-2010, 10:44 AM
I'm pretty sure I know what it is. First time around I re-used the old seal so naturally it leaked :mad:. Second time I used a new seal, but I did everything in the van so I probably fudged something up while installing the PTU. This time I'll take out the engine and inspect things up close. WAAAY back when I first removed the PTU from the 3.3L it was banging around and scratch up the surface of the adapter plate. I didn't think much of it then but it's probably the source of my leak. I should specify that even though the drip looks like it's coming from the PTU I'm 99% certain it's actually leaking oil from the transmission.

Ondonti
10-11-2010, 11:36 AM
What fluid do you have in the Tcase?
What did you use to seal the adapter plate?
Even using Great Stuff I always seem to get a little tiny tiny drip around the diff.

Kreel
10-11-2010, 11:51 AM
Off the top of my head I have 75w85 gear oil. I have a new OEM seal coupled with blue RTV all over the place. I'm thinking when I tear it open again I'll actually spend the time to do it properly :amen: Maybe use an anaerobic sealer around the PTU seal and the adapter plate?

Reaper1
10-11-2010, 01:22 PM
Blue RTV sucks! I hate that stuff! I like "The Right Stuff" or MOPAR ATF sealant. Both are expensive, but both work VERY well!

RoadWarrior222
10-11-2010, 01:34 PM
Black Permatex is the charm for me, have had the ext housing and diff cover off and back on again with that, sealed perfect. Never had anything I personally sealed up with it, leak again ever, well okay, about 9 years 80,000 miles is the oldest job I remember doing with it.

Vigo
10-12-2010, 12:42 AM
Gotta say ive never had love for blue rtv either...


I have what i THINK is a stock t2 plate and a 4puck in the aries and it was slipping right around the 350lb ft mark. Impressive all things considered but i think a 300hp 3.0 is going to be making that much torque and likely a lot more. Plus the 4 vs 6puck thing.. I dont think any stock plate is going to get you there with a 300hp 3.0 hooked up to all 4 wheels of a 3600lb vehicle.

Kreel
10-12-2010, 01:09 AM
Gotta say ive never had love for blue rtv either...


I have what i THINK is a stock t2 plate and a 4puck in the aries and it was slipping right around the 350lb ft mark. Impressive all things considered but i think a 300hp 3.0 is going to be making that much torque and likely a lot more. Plus the 4 vs 6puck thing.. I dont think any stock plate is going to get you there with a 300hp 3.0 hooked up to all 4 wheels of a 3600lb vehicle.

Yeah a stock 3.0L plate isn't going to cut it. 4 wheels hooking up isn't going to help either ;) I'm going to upgrade to a stock T-III plate and keep the 6-puck and go from there. My future power level is just an estimation. I'm figuring with 8-9 psi + a few more supporting mods (headers, 3" exhaust, and cams) it should bring me around 300 at the crank. A pulley change and meth injection to get me around 15 psi safely should yield 350. When I start feeling crazy THEN I whip out the twin-charged plan :evil:

Hehe, all plans at this point. We'll see what the winter brings.

Shadow24
10-12-2010, 12:03 PM
Kreel,

Kudos on the build so far! guess you will beat me to the supercharged AWD goal though. It should be a blast with the torque of the S/C and the AWD...its what im hoping to eventually get to do to my P-body.

In regards to the MS and a tach, you can set up one of the spare outs to produce a tach signal and IIRC on TD somewhere one of the MS'ed guys said a 680K resister inline would produce a signal the stock tach can use...I have an aftermarket one as im revving to 7200 already and may be revving higher than that later.

BTW, If you need any help or input on the MS, feel free to message :) been running my MS-II for about 3 years now

Kreel
10-12-2010, 01:31 PM
Kreel,

Kudos on the build so far! guess you will beat me to the supercharged AWD goal though. It should be a blast with the torque of the S/C and the AWD...its what im hoping to eventually get to do to my P-body.

In regards to the MS and a tach, you can set up one of the spare outs to produce a tach signal and IIRC on TD somewhere one of the MS'ed guys said a 680K resister inline would produce a signal the stock tach can use...I have an aftermarket one as im revving to 7200 already and may be revving higher than that later.

BTW, If you need any help or input on the MS, feel free to message :) been running my MS-II for about 3 years now

Thanks! To be fair my van with factory AWD which solved the hardest part of the equation. It also cost a fraction for what customizing a non-AWD vehicle will cost. We'll have to see who's the first to do an AWD P-body ;)

Ondonti
10-12-2010, 10:13 PM
I would just run the TIII plate until it slips once if you are okay with removing things again. I know I am cheap enough to do things wrong the first time, every time haha. My time is what I can afford.

Shockproof fluids are popular with a lot of T case worriers.

I think my leaks are caused by putting the 3 pieces of the diff cover back together and having RTV get wiped out of a spot or 2 as it comes together, or the oil is from the engine or the axle seals that are 4 years old.

Kreel
10-12-2010, 11:34 PM
I know I am cheap enough to do things wrong the first time, every time haha.

Haha, I know exactly what you mean :amen:

moparman76_69
10-19-2010, 12:16 PM
Could you take some pics of the rear axle setup if you get time?

Kreel
10-19-2010, 04:17 PM
Could you take some pics of the rear axle setup if you get time?

Sure. It uses de dion rear suspension with leaf springs. It's actually a really simple set-up. All 100% stock too. Pictures speak louder than words so I'll snap some pics if I get home before dark tonight.

moparman76_69
10-19-2010, 04:50 PM
Cool I've seen pics of the rear diff but not of the actual axle setup, I'm thinking I may want to put AWD on my 1st gen turbo 5speed and want to see how it works back there.

RoadWarrior222
10-19-2010, 05:34 PM
You'll probably need as much of the back end as you can get including the tank.

Kreel
10-21-2010, 12:03 AM
So I'm starting to plan ahead for future mods. Before the supercharger goes on I want to add a few supporting power mods first. Namely cams, headers, and exhaust. Head porting would be nice too but it's just not in the cards right now. I'm just looking for opinions right now.

Cams: crower regrinds. After spending some time looking at what the L67 guys do I'd like to get a 114* LSA and somewhere around 210-220* duration. Maybe keep exhaust duration slightly higher over intake. I'd love to get the lift up but I'm limited by stock valvetrain parts. Even so, this set-up should yield some performance gain for NA but really show its colors with the supercharger.

Headers: build them myself. Now the cheap part of me wants to do a simple log that flows slightly better than stock. The other side wants to do full long tube, 18" headers with 1.5" ID primaries, 2" secondaries, merging into a 3" exhaust. In reality I'll probably fall somewhere in between.

Exhaust: 3" custom built. Not much needed here. It's basically a straight tube attached to a muffler and a couple bends over the axle. I won't have a cat but for a muffler I like the sound of a magnaflow. Performance is not key in this area so I'd probably get the longest one I can find.

zin
10-21-2010, 03:36 PM
Cams: crower regrinds. After spending some time looking at what the L67 guys do I'd like to get a 114* LSA and somewhere around 210-220* duration. Maybe keep exhaust duration slightly higher over intake.

Sounds like a good place to start, especially with the other mods you have planned...

As to the heads, you can gain a fair amount without doing too much, just cleaning up casting flash and maybe opening up the bowls a bit... You should be doing a valve job anyway so you can disassemble the heads, go to town with some cartridge rolls (burrs are too aggressive), then have a shop finish up the valve job for you! Not much $$ and definitely worth the effort IMHO.

Mike

Ondonti
10-22-2010, 07:08 AM
Mike Mulhern tried to make a header using cheap 1.75" pipe for primaries that he knew was too big. It gained 5hp over stock manifolds. Problem is that our exhaust ports are too big at the exit for 1.5" pipe. You really need to step down the header right after the flange so you are not stuck with oversized primaries.

I wouldn't bother with a better log. I mean, I make good power and I still use the POS stock front with some porting, which is our bad manifold.
Do it right or don't bother.
Yes there is power to be made if you can optimize everything, but a lot of work on the wrong setup is a bad idea.

I wouldnt worry so much about increasing timing, that is where the lifters will start to be pissed off if they can't take up all the slack.

RoadWarrior222
10-22-2010, 07:44 AM
I'll make up these puppies when I go to headers...
http://www.mpgheads.com/PortPlate/PortPlateDetail.htm

Kreel
10-22-2010, 10:22 AM
Mike Mulhern tried to make a header using cheap 1.75" pipe for primaries that he knew was too big. It gained 5hp over stock manifolds. Problem is that our exhaust ports are too big at the exit for 1.5" pipe. You really need to step down the header right after the flange so you are not stuck with oversized primaries.

I wouldn't bother with a better log. I mean, I make good power and I still use the POS stock front with some porting, which is our bad manifold.
Do it right or don't bother.
Yes there is power to be made if you can optimize everything, but a lot of work on the wrong setup is a bad idea.

I wouldnt worry so much about increasing timing, that is where the lifters will start to be pissed off if they can't take up all the slack.

Interesting. I think I'll avoid a log setup then. So then I should start with 1.75" primary for the first inch or 2 and step down to a 1.5" for the remainder? It should flow fairly well but I'll still retain most of my low-end torque.

Cam's are another interesting subject. Our stocker is brutal so anything is better than nothing. From what I read increasing the LSA will help out the supercharger. Now increasing that as well as duration will definitely bring the lifters to the point where they aren't happy. I've heard all the problems you've had with yours and the washer "fixes" and I don't want to go down that route. Eventually I would do things properly with solid lifters, new springs, etc but for this van I want a drop-in replacement regrind. Maybe lower duration to have a better LSA? Or keep the LSA stock and get as much duration as I can? I'll probably talk to whoever is going to do my regrinds first and get their perspective, but I'm all ears for suggestions right now ;)

Reaper1
10-22-2010, 02:23 PM
KMP was trying out an exhaust port wedge in one of their long term vehicles, but something happened to it IIRC. I don't think it had anything to do with the wedge though. I'm still waiting to see what they say about them. I know in those old fords, and the old 426 Hemi's that this type of thing actually helped quite a bit depending on what you were doing.

I remember years ago I inquried about this on the 2.2/2.5 heads because they suffer from an exhaust port floor that is too low. One of the better head porters thew a nicely ported head on the flowbench and tested with clay. It made some difference, but not a lot as far as raw flow is concerned. Now velocity and flow quality are something completely different, and those could not be quantifiably tested on the flow bench. I still would like to see what happens on a running car!

zin
10-22-2010, 08:42 PM
From what I read increasing the LSA will help out the supercharger. Now increasing that as well as duration will definitely bring the lifters to the point where they aren't happy.

Definitely spread the LSA, that helps cut down on the overlap, which will help keep more of the charge air in the cylinder rather than blowing it out the exhaust. More duration shouldn't be a problem for the lifters IF it isn't an aggressive ramp, same for lift. The problem comes when you hit the lifter too quick and/or with too heavy a spring (those two kinda go hand-in-hand...).

Duration has the biggest effect on the RPM range that the engine will be most efficient, assuming heads/intake/exhaust are capable of the RPM range your cam is designed for, otherwise it's a big pile of "suck"... If you were to go a step or two up from stock with a 110-114 LSA you should be pretty happy, as will your computer. The added duration shouldn't be too choppy if you spread out the LSA... Should be quite a good runner with decent street manners as well.

Well, there's my .02!

Mike

Ondonti
10-22-2010, 10:06 PM
I think you can do 1 5/8 to start as long as things line up and you have not done any porting on the flange area of the exhaust port. I don't know what the diameter of the Columbia River Mandrel bends SOHC 12v flanges are.

Ramp speeds etc are not a problem for our lifters at this point, its the amount of material removed from the base circle. The lifters get "maxed on pump up and that is a bad thing. They start failing. I had to use 1 washer in each lifter. I removed the washer from a few when looking for a different problem and those valves got beat to crap, and they were my nice Ferrea valves :yuck:

Big_P
10-24-2010, 12:10 AM
would SOHC 3.0 Mitsu exhaust manifolds fit our 3.0?

RoadWarrior222
10-24-2010, 09:54 AM
Yup, it's the matter off routing of the pipes after that that usually screws us. On a mitsu they will go under the motor and the oil pan is a different shape.

Vigo
10-25-2010, 12:29 PM
I only know of one person who put a mitsu rear manifold on the front of one of these 3.0s.. and he ran that exhaust pipe under the motor and under the k-frame even. I keep wanting to try it but it seems like it would be pretty difficult to get the pipe back up to merge with the other side before it goes through the k-frame because of clearance on either side of the passenger axle. With AWD it would be impossible.

In other news i bought my AWD van rear-end setup yesterday.

Kreel
10-27-2010, 02:06 PM
I did a rough measurement on the SOHC flanges I have. It looks like a 1 5/8 ID. I also have some 1.75" pipe whose ID will match the flange almost perfectly. So I'll have to order some 1.5" pipe to step down to. Or I could do a triple stepped header and go 1.75" --> 1.625" --> 1.5" with potential a length break-down of 2" --> 4" --> 6". That'll give me 12" primaries that I *should* be able to make fit. The rear will be tighter because of the PTU unless the headers go straight to where the down-pipe is. Meh, it's all guesswork right now. I might make some card-board mock-ups just to see what I can make fit first of all.

RoadWarrior222
10-27-2010, 02:40 PM
Well if you bend it yourself with a bit of a crush bend and it works out the area of a 1.5" pipe in the corners, you can hammer the rest oval to match...

It might end up tuned to high and low end then when at the low end the column that approximates the largest circle inside the oval resonates, with the ends of the lobes stagnant, and then further up when the whole volume is used.

Ondonti
10-31-2010, 11:04 PM
I think you will want them much longer then 12"

Kreel
11-01-2010, 12:48 AM
I think you will want them much longer then 12"

Idea #1 was to keep them short enough so I could get them to collect right before the crossover. I think I should go with idea #2 which is to screw the crossover and collect the front bank right at end of the crossover, potentially creating 24"+ primaries. Aren't mopar3.0's grand prix headers like this? Now 2 feet of primaries on the rear bank takes up a lot of room and would effectively replace my downpipe. The AWD downpipe is a lot different then any other and it is TIGHT. This also means that any time I want to pull the engine I have to take off the rear header at a minimum. It's not a huge deal but an annoyance nonetheless ;)

Kreel
12-28-2010, 05:16 PM
What's better then having 1 m90? 2 m90's of course! :p

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/2m90s.jpg

I saw it in the JY and it was too tempting to resist. I'm not sure if I'll sell it, rebuild and port it, or save it for a future project.

It warmed up to -5 today so I started to pull the engine. I still need to wait on my cams, 4 more solid rockers, and 4 more valves anyways so I'm still stuck anyways. It's kind of nice not rushing things for once. I can't recall what I've posted on this site but the plans for my heads have changed. Long story short I'm using G54B valves with 4G15 solid rockers, schneider springs, and a wild regrind.

...and here are the pics of the rear end as promised. It's nothing great but it should give you an idea of what's under there.

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/Minivan007.jpg

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/Minivan001.jpg

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/Minivan002.jpg

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/Minivan003.jpg

shayne
12-28-2010, 05:24 PM
hey man, nice pics, thanks very much.

RoadWarrior222
12-28-2010, 06:20 PM
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/Minivan007.jpg
Don't use that pad on the lift/jack, looks like it will punch through soon (or fall off)

turbovanmanČ
12-28-2010, 06:26 PM
I'll make up these puppies when I go to headers...
http://www.mpgheads.com/PortPlate/PortPlateDetail.htm

Those look interesting and they definately look like they should work nicely, :nod:



Cam's are another interesting subject. Our stocker is brutal so anything is better than nothing. From what I read increasing the LSA will help out the supercharger. Now increasing that as well as duration will definitely bring the lifters to the point where they aren't happy. I've heard all the problems you've had with yours and the washer "fixes" and I don't want to go down that route. Eventually I would do things properly with solid lifters, new springs, etc but for this van I want a drop-in replacement regrind. Maybe lower duration to have a better LSA? Or keep the LSA stock and get as much duration as I can? I'll probably talk to whoever is going to do my regrinds first and get their perspective, but I'm all ears for suggestions right now ;)


I have some available and I can get you anything ground, barring the limits of the stock cams, of course, :p

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?11413-For-you-N-A-3.0L-guys-stage-1-and-race-cams!&highlight=cams

Kreel
12-29-2010, 12:30 AM
Don't use that pad on the lift/jack, looks like it will punch through soon (or fall off)

Actually the whole van is very solid. The PO (who was also the original owner) had it undercoated for many, many years. The difference is night and day between my van and 95% of the other old vans out there. There's some surface rust forming and the only parts it's rusted through is right at the driver's feet. If the PO used a decent floor mat there wouldn't have been any rust holes.



I have some available and I can get you anything ground, barring the limits of the stock cams, of course, :p

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?11413-For-you-N-A-3.0L-guys-stage-1-and-race-cams!&highlight=cams (http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?11413-For-you-N-A-3.0L-guys-stage-1-and-race-cams%21&highlight=cams)

Those are wussy regrinds :lol: J/k, because I'm not limiting myself to the stock valvetrain I don't need a cam that plays nice with one. The regrind I'm going for would completely decimate a stock valvetrain. If you can get custom regrinds done at a good price then I'm all ears. I have a set sitting with Crower now, but I'll likely be doing more custom regrinds in the future. Plus sending parts within Canada will be a bit cheaper on the wallet.

Kreel
07-02-2011, 12:33 AM
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/33Portedheadtop.jpg

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/33Portedheadchamber.jpg

Finally got these puppies back! BIG thanks to Ed for putting up with me and all my questions, concerns, and all the other roadblocks that came along for the ride :pSoooo...what you're looking at is possibly the biggest, baddest 12v SOHC head out there. Improvement over stock ranges from 10% to 35% depending on lift. The top # IIRC is 240 cfm @ .500 on the intake. At a high level Ed has performed a stage 2 port job with +3/+3 G54B valves. Those are LSx springs sitting on top. Not pictured are my 4G15 solid roller rockers.

The idea for the valves came a LONG time ago (2+ years?). I didn't really have the means to do anything with it so I shelved it. When the 4G15 rockers were discovered I started thinking again and started up some rough measurements. It looked feasible on my side so I sent everything Ed's way and he worked his magic. I can't take credit for the hard work - actually doing the real measurements and flow analysis. If Ed wants to chime in on all the details for the machining that went on he can feel free to contribute it here.

One piece of the puzzle remains - the cam :o I had everything worked out with Crower. I had been busy at work so I really wasn't pushing them to get things done asap. I phoned Monday and my cam is MIA :confused2: The guy I was in contact with quit so I'm pulling my hair out to figure out what's going on. I *was* planning to pick up the heads and the cam at the same time but now I have to put things off again. I've been WAY to busy to work on the van anyways, but still :(

In any case, expect more updates in the near future. I'm dying to get these heads installed and the supercharger going. The list of parts needed is very small now. The track opened a month ago and I'm already kicking myself for not being there yet. I promise that the van will get there before the summer is up :amen:

Vigo
07-02-2011, 01:11 AM
Yowza! Sexy!

RoadWarrior222
07-02-2011, 09:26 AM
I phoned Monday and my cam is MIA :confused2: The guy I was in contact with quit so I'm pulling my hair out to figure out what's going on. I *was* planning to pick up the heads and the cam at the same time but now I have to put things off again. I've been WAY to busy to work on the van anyways, but still :(
Bummer, hope that gets straightened out.

What was the guy's name though? Maybe he lost a pair of mine and a pair for Adam and Brent too... :thumb:

Vigo
07-02-2011, 09:40 PM
Bwahahaha i like that thinking..

moparman76_69
07-02-2011, 10:04 PM
Out of curiosity what ratio is your transmission?

Kreel
07-03-2011, 08:51 AM
Bummer, hope that gets straightened out.

What was the guy's name though? Maybe he lost a pair of mine and a pair for Adam and Brent too... :thumb:

The guys name was Matt. When I was talking with Dave Crower last week it sounds like his leaving was not a "clean" break.


Out of curiosity what ratio is your transmission?

It's a 3.77 ratio transmision.

Reaper1
07-03-2011, 12:30 PM
Nice heads! Sucks about the cams though....

Kreel
07-06-2011, 12:00 AM
It took a week but the cams have been found! They're supposed to be done and shipped out by the end of the week :D

Ondonti
07-06-2011, 06:16 AM
Fuh, I really wanted my name on that list at your expense. I want more info on how everything fits but like you, I have no time to apply anything to my fun car at this point. I really want lsx springs but I don't have those valves, and I don't think want a set of those valves since the machine costs are so high that a little more money can bring in custom valves that can deal with more heat if I ever rock the house (probably never).
Interested in how your cam feels when you drive.

What is your installed spring pressure right now? Install height? retainers? Normal Ls1 locks?

BTW, you ever consider a reverse hybrid trans? I think your heavy van would be perfect for a 1991 era short gear with 3.85 final drive.
I would be interested in the same thing if I really got deep into drag racing this car and trying to maximize performance in the 1320. My 4th gear is going to go WAY too far when I up the rev limiter again. Hope you guys realize that a 3.0 at its real rev potentials will never top out 4th at the track...and hopefully never on the freeway.

moparman76_69
07-06-2011, 07:36 AM
It's a 3.77 ratio transmision.

You have currently working AWD? I thought to get the AWD to work you had to use a 3.50.

Vigo
07-06-2011, 10:52 AM
The awd system on the van is sort of weird. If you take the gear ratio of the transfer case and multiply it by the gear ratio of the rear differential, the result is a 1:1 ratio. So, whatever the input to the transfer case is (3.77 trans), the AWD setup will just replicate that at the rear wheels.

moparman76_69
07-06-2011, 11:57 AM
thas how i was thinking it worked but after talking to someone at sdac he stated the overunning clutch would operate correctly that way so i was going to pull everlthing apart to verify what was what, i still might do it and start an info thread so we dont clutter up awd build threads with this stuff

Kreel
07-06-2011, 08:27 PM
Fuh, I really wanted my name on that list at your expense. I want more info on how everything fits but like you, I have no time to apply anything to my fun car at this point. I really want lsx springs but I don't have those valves, and I don't think want a set of those valves since the machine costs are so high that a little more money can bring in custom valves that can deal with more heat if I ever rock the house (probably never).
Interested in how your cam feels when you drive.

What is your installed spring pressure right now? Install height? retainers? Normal Ls1 locks?

BTW, you ever consider a reverse hybrid trans? I think your heavy van would be perfect for a 1991 era short gear with 3.85 final drive.
I would be interested in the same thing if I really got deep into drag racing this car and trying to maximize performance in the 1320. My 4th gear is going to go WAY too far when I up the rev limiter again. Hope you guys realize that a 3.0 at its real rev potentials will never top out 4th at the track...and hopefully never on the freeway.

It certainly has been the most expensive part of my project, but not too bad for price :o I think of these heads as a stepping stone towards all-out custom valved heads. I didn't want to drop the $$$ for custom if something in my setup doesn't work out. I think if Crower gets the cam right (I told them *many* times about the base circle issue) then everything should just fall into place :D Oh, and these heads WILL rev. My power should be dropping off around 7-7.5k but I suspect the heads could take 8k all day long. This is all hopes and dreams right now but I will make that a reality.

Can't recall the details off the top of my head but It's around the 120# range, 1.75ish install height with LS1 locks.

I'm waiting for the day my brother gives up on his spirit r/t to get my 3.85 final drive :eyebrows:

Ondonti
07-07-2011, 04:22 AM
Well there have to be people smoking the hybrid trans crack pipe who are throwing those things away without ever doing a gearing calculation to figure out what kind of gearing would actually make them go faster....

That kinda makes me unhappy that you got your install height so high but Ed was saying with OEM height valves its only 1.57" :( That means you can fit some crazy lift in there!
Permission to hate? Hate hate hate. Now I am gonna get real jealous when things don't work out for me the way I want. Did your stems get undercut? Head shop back in Utah was saying he could undercut OEM valve stems for the TIII valves when I was working on a project for Bansheenut. Later I ended up not wanting to do that because TIII valves are microscopic for their displacement and it would be polishing a turd. Wonder if Ed could get any gains with an undercut OEM 3.0 valve. Glad you are doing the testing ;)

Have you guys figured out if there is a cam lift/overlap point where the valves will hit?

Guessing your blower will run out of steam before anything else. If you start liking this setup, you might really like the step up up to a screw blower and crazy efficiency. My friend did his own blow through water to air intercooler for his 1uz v8 toyota 4 runner build. Thats another fun thing to consider. He was using an m112 blower because at 4400 feet the m90 could only create about 3 pounds of boost on 4.0 v8.

Kreel
07-07-2011, 01:29 PM
Well there have to be people smoking the hybrid trans crack pipe who are throwing those things away without ever doing a gearing calculation to figure out what kind of gearing would actually make them go faster....

That kinda makes me unhappy that you got your install height so high but Ed was saying with OEM height valves its only 1.57" :( That means you can fit some crazy lift in there!
Permission to hate? Hate hate hate. Now I am gonna get real jealous when things don't work out for me the way I want. Did your stems get undercut? Head shop back in Utah was saying he could undercut OEM valve stems for the TIII valves when I was working on a project for Bansheenut. Later I ended up not wanting to do that because TIII valves are microscopic for their displacement and it would be polishing a turd. Wonder if Ed could get any gains with an undercut OEM 3.0 valve. Glad you are doing the testing ;)

Have you guys figured out if there is a cam lift/overlap point where the valves will hit?

Guessing your blower will run out of steam before anything else. If you start liking this setup, you might really like the step up up to a screw blower and crazy efficiency. My friend did his own blow through water to air intercooler for his 1uz v8 toyota 4 runner build. Thats another fun thing to consider. He was using an m112 blower because at 4400 feet the m90 could only create about 3 pounds of boost on 4.0 v8.

Craziness! I'd love a 3.85 ratio in my van. It'll help getting 4000 lbs of steel moving too :o

So my install height is actually higher on the intake then the exhaust because of a difference between the G54B valves. I can't recall at what point (ie. before/after LS1 locks) but intake could potentially lift to 0.500"+ and exhaust 0.480". If everthing works out as expected then using custom valves you could push the install height even higher and see 0.600"+ lift. AFAIK nothing was done to the stems.

Max lift during overlap while still maintaining some space between the valves is 0.100". Now this won't be much of an issue for me since I don't want a lot of overlap in my cam to begin with. Where it *could* be an issue would be some all-out NA with a ton of overlap rev'ing to 10k...

I'm already planning for a m112 hybrid. Not sure if I'll do AWIC or the hybrid first :eyebrows: But...I have a long ways to go before I consider either of those options

Ondonti
07-08-2011, 02:46 AM
That hybrid seems kinda pricy. 200% more and get the screw blower lol. I wish the price was lower on those.

turbovanmanČ
07-08-2011, 03:32 AM
Are you going to run the new combo n/a or do it all at once?

Kreel
07-08-2011, 08:35 AM
That hybrid seems kinda pricy. 200% more and get the screw blower lol. I wish the price was lower on those.

Maybe...I honestly haven't looked into screw blowers. All I know is $$$


Are you going to run the new combo n/a or do it all at once?

The original plan was to run n/a (with new setup), then supercharged. With it already being July I might have to change things...stay tuned.

Ondonti
07-09-2011, 04:18 AM
If you could swing it, you might love it. 2k in the hole over the cost of what you are talking about, but a fraction of the drive losses and more efficient then most turbo compressors, plus the instant response of the roots. I have a friend with one on his little 2.0 ABA VW. I would go research it a bit and see what kinda gains oem roots guys make with straight up swaps. My guess would be 20%.
I know this is straight from a company but:
http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/twinscrew-vs-roots-fromcatalog.pdf

Then this is their actual test
http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/TWINSCREWvsROOTS.pdf

One way to qualify some of these numbers. If you move more CFMs and that air is more dense (cooler) you are moving a lot more oxygen. They do cheat on the numbers by running more boost and saying its okay because their outlet temps are still lower.

Ondonti
07-09-2011, 05:07 AM
http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Pricelist_pg/links/PriceList.pdf

Scroll down to the straight up supercharger cost and its not as much as I thought.

Kreel
07-22-2011, 10:44 PM
Sadly no real update. I've been given 3 different dates for when the cams would be finished but somehow they keep stalling. I've gone from mildy upset to extremely pissed!

Ondonti
07-23-2011, 04:49 AM
My guy ;)

Kreel
07-23-2011, 09:14 AM
My guy ;)

Lol, don't rub it in.

Vigo
08-01-2011, 10:50 PM
Guessing your blower will run out of steam before anything else.

I was reading a thread recently where someone was making close to 500hp on an m90 with a different case casting.

Look at the difference in the inlet between the m90 i have (oval on the left) vs the aftermarket case's intake:
http://www.cartechbooks.com/cartech//SA89/T_B_03_04.gif
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/MP199Small.jpg

Kreel
08-04-2011, 10:09 PM
O.M.G. My cams finally shipped! I won't have them in my hands until sometime next week. Now let's see if they listened to my instructions properly...

@Vigo - Interesting. I haven't seen many people break 500hp on an m90. In fact, the only one that comes to mind is ZZP's car which had some insane heads using a GenV m90. I think it could rev to a whopping 7k, lol

Ondonti
08-06-2011, 04:14 AM
Did you ever figure out what your fluid leak was?

Kreel
08-07-2011, 05:38 PM
Did you ever figure out what your fluid leak was?

I have an idea that it was the seal for the adapter plate. Honestly I haven't looked at it in months so I won't even look at it until I start putting things back together.

TheCanadian007
08-08-2011, 12:42 PM
Progress! :)

Kreel
08-13-2011, 06:18 PM
Well, I picked up my cam today. Long story short Crower f'ed up my cam. They didn't listen to what I was asking and now that cam might not even be useable, let alone what I originally wanted. I provide details later when I know more.

EDIT:

I'm going to post pics after if they look decent (cam card info isn't available online yet) but here's the run-down of the MANY things they did wrong.

-only 0.100" taken off of the base circle after regrind. I requested MANY times both via e-mail and the phone to have a MINIMUM of 0.150" taken off. Because they failed to do this my intake valves are ever so slightly being held open. This automatically makes the cams a pair of paperweights.

-Even after telling them many, many times that this is a 3.0L SOHC engine with a 1.5 rocker arm ratio they managed to screw up and think it's a DOHC with a 1.75 rocker arm ratio. The reground to my height requirements based on the wrong ratio so my lift is actually LESS then stock now.

-duration is 223/232 @ 0.050 (278/284 total)...much higher then what I suggested. This is supposed to be a street/strip supercharger cam. To me this seems closer to a race cam then a street cam.

-lobe centerline is set at 106...no idea why they changed this.

-LSA didn't change. I wanted them to increase.

So as if things weren't tight enough for time I have to deal with getting ANOTHER set of cams. Quite frankly I don't want to deal with Crower ever again. I'll be sending a strongly worded e-mail right away and if they want to fix everything for me on their dime then great. If not I'll have a set of cams out to Brent's cam guy next week.

Kreel
08-13-2011, 11:38 PM
See how many problems you can find with this cam card :confused:

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/CamCard.jpg

Reaper1
08-14-2011, 12:23 AM
Wow, wtf!?

Vigo
08-14-2011, 12:49 AM
At this point i think you should make them get it right as punishment, whether or not you feel like ever supporting them again. You deserve to get what you asked for on what you paid for, and letting them off the hook doesnt help ANYONE, least of all the next guy who ends up in your position because you didnt hold Crower's feet to the fire to fix their errors.

Aries_Turbo
08-14-2011, 08:39 AM
gather your documentation (emails detailing what you wanted) and place it in comparison to the BS that they sent you. send it to them and say this is what i wanted, this is what you sent me.... now do what i wanted like you should have in the first place. oh yeah, and since you are wasting my time again, do it on your dime.

Brian

Kreel
08-14-2011, 09:13 AM
At this point i think you should make them get it right as punishment, whether or not you feel like ever supporting them again. You deserve to get what you asked for on what you paid for, and letting them off the hook doesnt help ANYONE, least of all the next guy who ends up in your position because you didnt hold Crower's feet to the fire to fix their errors.


gather your documentation (emails detailing what you wanted) and place it in comparison to the BS that they sent you. send it to them and say this is what i wanted, this is what you sent me.... now do what i wanted like you should have in the first place. oh yeah, and since you are wasting my time again, do it on your dime.

Brian

Yep, I've got over 50 e-mails of back-and-forth going over everything. I have PLENTY of documentation and they still screwed up. I sent them an e-mail last night basically saying they sent me paperweights. I'm giving them the option to make things right. We'll see what happens...I'm hoping they'll just agree with me and regrind me another cam free of charge. If they don't I'll have to take things to the next level.

Although this cam is useless for my built heads it *might* work on a stock-valve head. Just to get things running I might throw it in a different set of heads just to see how it performs.

RoadWarrior222
08-14-2011, 10:04 AM
Ugh, that sucks...

They seem like they were supposed to be a circle track NA cam, idle at 2000, power all the way up top... but yah, rocker ratio screw up means they are probably not going to be as good as a stock cam.

How the F can you be in the cam business and get confused about whether you have a SOHC cam or a DOHC cam in front of you though????

Kreel
08-15-2011, 10:12 PM
Talked to Crower today and hopefully sorted things out. They "claim" the guy grinding the cam didn't want to go any deeper then 0.100" for fear of going through the heat treating. Back when I was talking back and forth this came up (I actually brought it up first), but they felt that because I have roller rockers and this engine isn't going to be going another 100k I would be ok. They even offer a treatment to the cams if I was really worried about it.

There wasn't much response to the whole DOHC/SOHC thing and the rocker arm ratio getting messed up. They're willing to fix it all free of cost plus shipping back to me AND a 2 day turn-around. I'll believe it when I see it. I'm also having them back off on the duration a tad. Unfortunately this all means I won't even be putting anything back together until September now. Summer is slowly slipping away :(

Vigo
08-16-2011, 02:43 AM
Well if you get some tires that work better on cold pavement, winter fun should not be a problem.

turbovanmanČ
08-16-2011, 03:37 AM
That really sucks, :(

Ondonti
08-18-2011, 06:26 AM
My guy heat treated mine...included.

I like how they used the wrong centerline just like they did on the Rick Lozier cams.
Now, based on that, how could they screw up SOHC vs DOHC when they used the bad SOHC centerline number? Your lobe seperation is now what your centerline should be :P

Funny thing about my cam guy is he thought we have 1.5 rocker but thats because nobody really knew it was 1.6 on the hydraulics.
That kinda duration will idle at 1000 rpms or less, it just needs MS to run well.

Kreel
09-06-2011, 11:30 PM
Update: I complained enough and got Crower to fix their mistake + shipping back to me in Canada free of cost. They promised me a 2 day turnaround time (which they did) then failed to ship them until today. Everything was done exactly as per my e-mails this time so there's no chance they screwed it up (hopefully). I should have the cams early next week so I can start re-assembling by mid-September. Don't have any idea how I'm going to make it to the track, even in NA form. I have a LOT of work to do + reassemble the engine in under 2 weeks. Pretty bummed about that :(

In other news my brother finally built my adapter plate. It only took 10 months of bugging him to get it done...but beggers can't be choosers :p

turbovanmanČ
09-07-2011, 02:13 PM
That's awesome, :nod:

You'll be ready for snow racing, lol.

What adapter plate?

Kreel
09-07-2011, 10:01 PM
That's awesome, :nod:

You'll be ready for snow racing, lol.

What adapter plate?

Hehe, I took it out a couple times in the snow last year...lots of fun ;)

The adapter plate I'm referring to is my m90-to-intake adapter. Can't remember if I went into details with mock-up pics in this thread. In any case I will post pics once I have the adapter plate in my hands.

turbovanmanČ
09-07-2011, 11:46 PM
Ok, kinda remember, hard keeping track, lol.

Kreel
09-11-2011, 05:37 PM
Cams have cleared customs and should be here by Tuesday :D

Also, here's the adapter plate that took forever to get built. There's still more work to do on it but at least I have it in my hands. The final cuts/holes should be quick and easy.

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/m90/m90adapterplate1.jpg

Rough mock-up. Can't wait :p

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/m90/m90adapterplate2.jpg

Ondonti
09-11-2011, 06:00 PM
Now you just need to machine the OEM plenum flat and superglue.


Have you thought about making a big mouth plenum with the older style top OEM plenum piece.

RoadWarrior222
09-11-2011, 07:41 PM
Or flip a lower intake, saw some off, weld it into a box plenum with the SC dangling underneath, caged in by the runners....

Kreel
09-16-2011, 10:01 AM
Finally got my cams last night. The cam card is better this time, but not perfect. The base circle was ground correctly which was the biggest problem. Now after trying to install them the intake is held open ever so slightly :confused: I figured all my calculations were correct, but it looks like it's sitting on the underside of the rocker arm now. Sigh. So I'll be able to make it work with a couple more "tweaks" but I definitely won't have it running before the last track date.

RoadWarrior222
09-16-2011, 10:34 AM
Nice, makes me wonder if I could actually do worse with sandpaper and eyeball. :D

But umm, are you using hydraulic or solid lifters, since shouldn't hydraulic self adjust? ... and if you have those, do you pull 'em fully pumped? and actual turning the engine over would have 'em settle down? Just saying, before you go hacking bits off something that didn't need bits hacking off.

Aries_Turbo
09-16-2011, 12:19 PM
i thought he was doing the solid setup?

brian

turbovanmanČ
09-16-2011, 12:43 PM
Looking good.

Next time hit me up for cams, I'll get it right the first time, :D

Kreel
09-16-2011, 12:54 PM
Nice, makes me wonder if I could actually do worse with sandpaper and eyeball. :D

But umm, are you using hydraulic or solid lifters, since shouldn't hydraulic self adjust? ... and if you have those, do you pull 'em fully pumped? and actual turning the engine over would have 'em settle down? Just saying, before you go hacking bits off something that didn't need bits hacking off.

I'm using solid lifters.


i thought he was doing the solid setup?

brian

Bingo :D


Looking good.

Next time hit me up for cams, I'll get it right the first time, :D

Lol, I don't even want to think about the next set of cams yet. I haven't driven my van in over 10 months and I'm itching to do something with it!

Shadow
09-17-2011, 09:58 AM
Finally got my cams last night. The cam card is better this time, but not perfect. The base circle was ground correctly which was the biggest problem. Now after trying to install them the intake is held open ever so slightly :confused: I figured all my calculations were correct, but it looks like it's sitting on the underside of the rocker arm now. Sigh. So I'll be able to make it work with a couple more "tweaks" but I definitely won't have it running before the last track date.

Damn, was hoping to see you at the track in the next couple weeks. :(

Kreel
09-17-2011, 09:49 PM
Damn, was hoping to see you at the track in the next couple weeks. :(

I know, I know :( I've been dying to try and make it to the track all year. Instead of life easing up it seems to just throw more on the plate, lol. When are you planning to go to Gimli next? I might try to sneak out to watch you make that 9 second run :eyebrows:

Shadow
09-18-2011, 12:31 AM
I know, I know :( I've been dying to try and make it to the track all year. Instead of life easing up it seems to just throw more on the plate, lol. When are you planning to go to Gimli next? I might try to sneak out to watch you make that 9 second run :eyebrows:

Easy now, I said my goal for the Charger was to put it into the nines, I also said that I wasn't expecting to accomplish that in one year! lol

I'm hoping to get out next wknd. It's the wifes B-day and what better way to spend it! (that's what she said! lol)

Ondonti
11-14-2011, 12:36 AM
How is the van doing? What exactly is contacting. I didn't see a specific statement on that. To RW's comment, even my cams are too much for OEM lifters to make up and I have a larger base circle then Kreel. Mine were ground aggressively but not in an attempt to gain clearance. I was using washers and it caused problems since 3.0 hydraulics are really not compatible. The lash ended up damaging my high dollar custom valves and since finding that and barely being able to save the valves, I have not assembled that head again.

I have been daily driving the solids and I seem to have a VSS or guide failure. When I take it apart I will have a better idea on reliability for the solid rockers. I decided to not add oil passages to them. 190,000 mile cylinder heads that are probably from 1991 so that would be pre OEM guide fix. I am pissed about my car but I hope it at least provides good info. A head builder I know thought that the biggest risk with the rockers was wallowing out the guides if there was too much friction between lifter and valve (not adding oil squirting holes). I had squeaking problems but when I inspected further it seems it was a high spot on my re-profiled rockers contacting the OEM retainer. Hoping its not related to the solids.

Not brilliant to put a huge cam and untested custom setup solid lifters into your daily. :banaride:

turbovanmanČ
11-14-2011, 01:50 AM
Not brilliant to put a huge cam and untested custom setup solid lifters into your daily. :banaride:

How else are you going to test it? ;)

Kreel
11-14-2011, 02:02 PM
How is the van doing? What exactly is contacting. I didn't see a specific statement on that. To RW's comment, even my cams are too much for OEM lifters to make up and I have a larger base circle then Kreel. Mine were ground aggressively but not in an attempt to gain clearance. I was using washers and it caused problems since 3.0 hydraulics are really not compatible. The lash ended up damaging my high dollar custom valves and since finding that and barely being able to save the valves, I have not assembled that head again.

I have been daily driving the solids and I seem to have a VSS or guide failure. When I take it apart I will have a better idea on reliability for the solid rockers. I decided to not add oil passages to them. 190,000 mile cylinder heads that are probably from 1991 so that would be pre OEM guide fix. I am pissed about my car but I hope it at least provides good info. A head builder I know thought that the biggest risk with the rockers was wallowing out the guides if there was too much friction between lifter and valve (not adding oil squirting holes). I had squeaking problems but when I inspected further it seems it was a high spot on my re-profiled rockers contacting the OEM retainer. Hoping its not related to the solids.

Not brilliant to put a huge cam and untested custom setup solid lifters into your daily. :banaride:

Uh oh, someone caught me not making updates ;) Truth be told I haven't done any work on the van since I last made an update. Opportunities keep presenting themself which I cannot pass up on. It's great for paying down the bills so I can invest more money into the van...not so great for actually getting any spare time to work on the van right now. Everything is sitting there in my garage, taunting me! I also had 3 wonderful days of driving the company car (*cough* 2009 Nissan GT-R *cough* :love:), but that's a story for another day.

The underside of the rocker arm is actually contacting the retainer now. This is only happening on the intake side. I'll need to grind a little of the underside off (~1mm) so everything will clear. The whole valvetrain is VERY tight (ie. very little adjustment left). I'm confident everything will work out in the end though.

turbovanmanČ
11-14-2011, 02:23 PM
Good job your still alive, after watching the news last night, it was touch and go, :( :banghead: :eyebrows:

Ondonti
11-19-2011, 01:57 AM
I will be updating my holset thread soon with pictures of my lifters/valves after maybe 2k miles. My geometry is now proven to be unhappy. 100% now that I will be removing my solids. Craziness on a daily where the cam is so big it can't idle when cold without very high warm idle rpms and terrible MPGs.

Hoping things look a little better on my Ferrea head. I need to look at my old valvetrain pictures and do some thinking.

Edit, Pictures are posted on my Holset thread and also in the BoostedMopar 3.0 valvetrain thread. I do have my wonders if my Ferrea valves are as hardened as our oem valve. Maybe these rockers would destroy what is left of my Ferrea valve stem tips instead of getting destroyed.

Force Fed Mopar
02-17-2013, 02:20 AM
Did you ever get this van back together? I just got a '91 SWB AWD van, so I'm snooping through through all the AWD threads :nod: