View Full Version : Lost 4th gear
SebringLX
07-19-2010, 12:12 PM
Saturday I was cruising along at 55mph when a truck in front of me started slowing down to turn. After the truck got out of my way and I went to hit the gas again, I wasn't gaining any speed. Hit the gas a little more, saw the RPMs climbing, but still not gaining any speed. It was like I was in neutral. I threw it into autostick mode, it showed I was in 4th. I tried to down-shift, but it wouldn't respond. Had to pull over. Put it in park, put it back in autostick mode, shifted into 2nd, and 3rd just fine. Tried putting it in 4th, same thing happens, it's like being in neutral, couldn't down-shift out of 4th. This time the CEL came on. Had to pull over, put it in park again, and then back into auto-stick, and drive the rest of the way to the car show in 3rd. :(
On the way home, even more issues. When coming off the highway, it wouldn't down-shift into 2nd, then the gear indicator box disappeared. It went into limp mode, stuck in 2nd until I pulled over, turned the car off, then back on. Then I could get back in and out of every gear up to 3rd, although going into 3rd seemed to be slow. Also after a little while of cruising at 65 in 3rd gear on the highway, which put me over 3500rpms, it started dumping fuel. My wideband was reading 11.2:1 the most of the way home. Fuel wouldn't go back to normal until I turned the car off and back on again.
This morning when I moved my car so I could drive my truck to work, there was a softball size spot of trans fluid on the driveway. :( I'll be taking it back into the trans shop tomorrow morning I guess.
I'm going to crawl under the car when I get home from work and see if I can spot where the fluid is leaking from. Could just the fluid leaking be causing all these issues? I'm hoping it's just that, 'cause they'll fix that for free... I am kind of afraid I may have blown the clutches for 4th gear away when I accidentally hit 4th doing a burn-out at the track. :(
turbovanmanČ
07-19-2010, 02:59 PM
Maybe its the solenoid pack leaking? I can't remember if you replaced it earlier but its possible its full of metal from the TC letting go.
SebringLX
07-19-2010, 03:21 PM
Maybe its the solenoid pack leaking? I can't remember if you replaced it earlier but its possible its full of metal from the TC letting go.
I did replace it, but it was a couple weeks before the TC blew up. They were supposed to have cleaned everything up when I had the TC taken care of...
turbovanmanČ
07-19-2010, 04:27 PM
I did replace it, but it was a couple weeks before the TC blew up. They were supposed to have cleaned everything up when I had the TC taken care of...
You can't clean them out.
Bardo
07-19-2010, 04:56 PM
You have a pm
SebringLX
07-19-2010, 04:59 PM
You can't clean them out.
Can you tell if they are still good or not? They cost $150, and there was only 1 in all of Rockford when I bought the one on there now last month... The one I replaced was not on the car when the TC blew up...
turbovanmanČ
07-19-2010, 05:06 PM
Can you tell if they are still good or not? They cost $150, and there was only 1 in all of Rockford when I bought the one on there now last month... The one I replaced was not on the car when the TC blew up...
I would say the only way is to get the wheels in the air, then use a scanner to activate each gear, if you can't get 4th or other gears, then you'll have to verify electrically and if so, then its internal.
shadow88
07-19-2010, 05:35 PM
Sounds like the OD clutch burnt. I wouldn't be surprised if you have a gear ratio error in 4th code.
However, topping up the fluid would be my first priority.
SebringLX
07-19-2010, 06:55 PM
Yeah I'm topping the fluid off in the morning before I take it back to the shop. I drove the truck to work today, picked up 2qts of ATF+4 on the way home.
Ok so the leak is NOT coming from the solenoid pack. It's coming from the back side of the transmission. I couldn't pin point it exactly, but there's a big black panel on it, on the back side (not the pan that's on the bottom), and it's coming from there somewhere. There are 2 corner points on the bottom of the trans just below that panel near the passenger side axel that the fluid is hanging from before it drips off.
I started the car and let it get up to operating temp, then checked the fluid. There are 4 holes on the dip stick. The fluid was at the 3rd hole, right below where it says HOT, so I don't think it needs that much fluid. How much do you guys think I should use to top it off?
maybe 1/3 quart? It doesnt need much if its reading there.
That black cover on the back is the diff cover. Its just a stamped cover with silicone to seal. Unless they used a gasket.. in which case they should use silicone next time :p
Depending on who is buying it and where it is coming from, you can get aftermarket solenoid packs for $75 at shop cost from transmission parts houses. Ive also gotten ISS/OSS sensors as cheap as $6/pc. :p
I once drove a 3kgt with that problem. I dont like THAT 4spd auto much but one awesome thing about it is that you can just take off the passenger tire and unbolt the whole 4th gear clutch pack and it falls off in your hand! I popped it off and that cluth pack was toast. Im guessing yours is too.. I honestly dont think it's physically possible to make 4th gear strong in a 604, because there are not many clutches, they arent very big, and you cant put a crapload of pressure to them (a la our 3spds).
If you burnt it up by accident, that sucks, but on the other hand you know how not to do it ever again. At least you got a 12sec slip :)
SebringLX
07-19-2010, 07:36 PM
It looked like a black silicone sealant around it to me. The 41TE is on the drivers side in the Stratus/Sebring, so I don't think you can just pop the passenger side off on this car to do what you're saying.
There are upgraded clutch packs for 4th gear now, and some places will add a 5th clutch pack to it too...
It doesn't look like clutch plates are very expensive.. less than $5... What's the difference between a clutch plate and a clutch pack? If it's just the 4th gear clutches that went out, would that damage anything else in the trans? I'm just trying to figure out if I'm looking at another full rebuild, which I can't afford, and just had done anyway, or if they should be able to just replace the clutches for 4th and make sure everything is sealed properly...
I'm always very careful to never boost in 4th, but on that particular burn-out, it zipped through 1st, 2nd, and 3rd very quickly. It only hit 4th for a second, but it went into it with the tires spinning at 90+MPH and boosting 24psi.
turbovanmanČ
07-19-2010, 08:01 PM
The clutch's consist of a fiber disc and metal disc, so you have frictions and steels, IE the same as a motorbike clutch setup. More clutch's equals more surface area.
I doubt you damaged it doing it that one time, so its most likely something inside went or they didn't clean it out properly, the price was sorta low.
SebringLX
07-19-2010, 08:19 PM
The clutch's consist of a fiber disc and metal disc, so you have frictions and steels, IE the same as a motorbike clutch setup. More clutch's equals more surface area.
I doubt you damaged it doing it that one time, so its most likely something inside went or they didn't clean it out properly, the price was sorta low.
$1600 was low?
The clutches and steels are cheap... http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/604_41TE_transmission_clutches_s/8405.htm
Less than $3 each.
Those are stock replacement parts though. Not sure how much parts made with better materials cost.
turbovanmanČ
07-19-2010, 10:02 PM
$1600 was low?
The clutches and steels are cheap... http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/604_41TE_transmission_clutches_s/8405.htm
Less than $3 each.
Those are stock replacement parts though. Not sure how much parts made with better materials cost.
That included the converter as well didn't it?
$1600 is low to get anything better than stock, usually. Doesnt mean you didnt get something better than stock for $1600, but that is pretty much full retail for a stock build.
IF nothing happened other than clutch discs burning up, you probably COULD take it all the way apart, clean everything, put it back together with new clutches in 4th, and have it work. BUT, as simon has said its impossible to clean the solenoid pack and the converter (basically) so if you got junk floating around from ground up clutch discs, its hard to get it all out.
One way or another, it will probably have to come out. My suggestion is if they dont warranty it, do it yourself! With some snapring pliers and posting a bunch of pictures, we could pretty much walk you through the basics. First thing, though, is to get it on a scanner.
SebringLX
07-19-2010, 11:23 PM
It was ~$3500 when I had it built the 1st time, ~10k miles and 3 years ago... The converter from that build is what blew up a month ago. The $1600 was to clean up everything from that converter blowing up. I do not know what was replaced as part of that. I would assume anything that can't be cleaned was replaced. The guy that did the work on the trans itself was not there when I picked it up on Friday, so I didn't get to talk to him and get details on what all he had to do. I only got to talk to the guy who put the trans back in the car.
I had what was supposed to be the practical limit of the 41TE as far as beefing it up. It was not cost effective to have it built anymore than what it was. It could be done, but it would be better and more cost effective put in a build 3spd.
turbovanmanČ
07-19-2010, 11:43 PM
It was ~$3500 when I had it built the 1st time, ~10k miles and 3 years ago... The converter from that build is what blew up a month ago. The $1600 was to clean up everything from that converter blowing up. I do not know what was replaced as part of that. I would assume anything that can't be cleaned was replaced. The guy that did the work on the trans itself was not there when I picked it up on Friday, so I didn't get to talk to him and get details on what all he had to do. I only got to talk to the guy who put the trans back in the car.
I had what was supposed to be the practical limit of the 41TE as far as beefing it up. It was not cost effective to have it built anymore than what it was. It could be done, but it would be better and more cost effective put in a build 3spd.
If that was including re and re labour, that really was cheap, wow.
Anyhow, do the scanner thing then we can guide you and as Vigo said, we can also help you out if you need to rebuild it.
Ok, $3500 sounds more normal for full retail on a max performance build.
$1600 would be your everyday rebuild where there arent many broken hard parts and you didnt get scammed. But $1600 just to clean everything out would be pretty exorbitant unless they also replaced some parts.
Let us know what you find out..
BadAssPerformance
07-20-2010, 01:37 PM
It could be done, but it would be better and more cost effective put in a build 3spd.
We didnt say that too many times Sunday, did we? ;)
BTW, I'll get the rest of the vids up... you can hear a definite loud click noise during the burnout an at least 2 of them :eek:
turbovanmanČ
07-20-2010, 01:46 PM
We didnt say that too many times Sunday, did we? ;)
BTW, I'll get the rest of the vids up... you can hear a definite loud click noise during the burnout an at least 2 of them :eek:
I would love a 4 speed, but like all builds, its only as good as the parts put in. If he had the converter he paid for, he wouldn't be in this mess. If my converter lets go, which it has, it can also cause issues like he's having if I don't clean it out properly, :(
BadAssPerformance
07-20-2010, 01:51 PM
His converter was working fine....
I'm guessing the fact 4th isnt locked out killed it. Coming out of the burnout wheels blazing... lift throttle and it upshifts 4th cuz it sees the wheel speed and KaBOOM! :(
turbovanmanČ
07-20-2010, 02:09 PM
His converter was working fine....
I'm guessing the fact 4th isnt locked out killed it. Coming out of the burnout wheels blazing... lift throttle and it upshifts 4th cuz it sees the wheel speed and KaBOOM! :(
His OLD converter started this, :(
SebringLX
07-20-2010, 04:14 PM
His converter was working fine....
I'm guessing the fact 4th isnt locked out killed it. Coming out of the burnout wheels blazing... lift throttle and it upshifts 4th cuz it sees the wheel speed and KaBOOM! :(
Not quite. In auto-stick, it will not up-shift unless you hit the RPM for the shift point. I've logged 1-2 and 2-3 shift points as being 5800rpms, and 3-4 shift points as being 6250rpms.
On the burn-out that I hit 4th gear in, it actually spun fast enough hit the 3-4 shift point before I let off the gas and released the parking brake. It always zips right through 1st and 2nd like they aren't even there. I don't know if it was the extra water on that one or what, but it zipped through 3rd faster than I was expecting too. Usually I back off the gas and release the parking break when I see the speedo hit 80mph. The tires are usually spinning at over 110mph before it is running at a high enough RPM to trigger the 3-4 shift point.
Down-shifting is another story. That is still somewhat speed dependent in auto-stick mode. I believe it drops into 2nd if the speed falls below 20mph, and will drop to 1st by the time you come to a complete stop. I'm not sure exactly on there. I want to say it did a 4-2 down-shift coming out of the water box on that particular burn-out.
BadAssPerformance
07-21-2010, 08:47 AM
Watch your burnouts... listen for clicking noise
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51176
turbovanmanČ
07-21-2010, 01:41 PM
Watch your burnouts... listen for clicking noise
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51176
1 + 4 are really bad.
black86glhs
07-21-2010, 02:09 PM
If you hit 4th gear, it is toast. They are not robust enough to take that kind of abuse. Compare the clutch surfaces for 1st gear versus 4th. MHO.:thumb:
Reaper1
07-21-2010, 04:04 PM
It sucks there is no way to lock out the shifting on the stock electronic transmissions. I've never owned or messed with an autostick, so I don't know much about them, but on the older ones, if you put them in D or L they would not engage 4th. Maybe something to look at when doing your burn outs. Then put it in autostick for the run. I almost always races in D, but I cold get faster times in L depending on temperatures and such. It just wasn't as consistant.
SebringLX
07-21-2010, 04:18 PM
Ok so I finally got a hold of the trans shop owner. He said he's pretty sure it's the 3rd gear hub because when he drove it, he felt the 1-2 shift, and it kicked it into neutral on the 2-3 shift. He said he still had one more thing to test before determining that though, and to call him if I don't hear from him by 10 AM tomorrow.
I asked him about what was done before. He said they did what's called a "paper and rubber" rebuild. This part that he's saying may have failed, is not something that was replaced as part of that. He told me that if it was a clutch, and he put the clutch in, then he stands by that and would replace that. However if it's the hub, since they didn't touch that, there will be a charge, but it "won't be as much as last time since there's not as much work involved".
I asked him if he had driven it in auto-stick mode, because I was able to get it to go into 3rd, but it felt kind of slow/sloppy. It also had problems leaving 3rd, and would kick me into limp mode if I had to slow down too much. He said he hadn't, but he would do that, 'cause if he can rule out the hub then the whole trans doesn't have to come off to fix it.
If it does turn out to be the 3rd gear hub, is there a stronger one out there I can have them use?
SebringLX
07-21-2010, 05:07 PM
It sucks there is no way to lock out the shifting on the stock electronic transmissions. I've never owned or messed with an autostick, so I don't know much about them, but on the older ones, if you put them in D or L they would not engage 4th. Maybe something to look at when doing your burn outs. Then put it in autostick for the run. I almost always races in D, but I cold get faster times in L depending on temperatures and such. It just wasn't as consistant.
There's no L with autostick. It's P R N D 1 2 3 4. With a non-auto-stick enabled car I think it's P R N D 3 L, I'd have to look at my old shift assembly though.
I could get a stand alone trans controller for ~$900, $750 for the TCM-2000 (http://www.powertraincontrolsolutions.com/transcontrol.php), and $150 for the harness.
I finally found this old thread on Neons.org I was looking for that has a ton of info on beefing up the 41TE: http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=307286
A few of those guys have swapped them into Neons.
mcsvt
07-21-2010, 05:17 PM
Can't you use a tuner to lock out the auto upshift when in Auto-stick? I know with my Magnum and a Predator I can, but then you'd have to shift it yourself while doing the burnout. It will essentially bounce off the rev limiter instead of upshifting.
You might just want to do your burnouts in autostick from now on.
SebringLX
07-21-2010, 05:33 PM
Can't you use a tuner to lock out the auto upshift when in Auto-stick? I know with my Magnum and a Predator I can, but then you'd have to shift it yourself while doing the burnout. It will essentially bounce off the rev limiter instead of upshifting.
Not with the SCT I'm tuning with no. Predator isn't available for this car, and never will be. However if they have that function on the auto trans PT, it may still be an option. I have a PT Cruiser Stage 1 ATX PCM that I am working on getting to work in my car. If it does, I can use a Predator with it. They may only have that function available on the LX cars though.
mcsvt
07-21-2010, 05:43 PM
Ah ok, sounds like the trans guy has an idea on what it is. Hopefully you can find a way to safely keep it from going into the higher gears for burnouts though. Might have to modify your burnout procedure for now, keep the tires spinning but at a lower speed I guess.
SebringLX
07-21-2010, 06:30 PM
You might just want to do your burnouts in autostick from now on.
I always do them in autostick, it was in autostick when this happened...
Autostick does not lock out 4th gear, as I mentioned, it will still do a 3-4 shift at 6250rpms.
Oh, i forgot about that.. I should know, because i burnt up my 606 4th gear @130 mph in my intrepid when i SHOULD have been in 3rd, because it upshifted into 4th @5500..
Minor memory lapse there! Sorry!
black86glhs
07-21-2010, 08:20 PM
I thought you lost 4th gear? Or was it that it would not upshift to 4th?
turbovanmanČ
07-21-2010, 08:21 PM
Maybe you can install a switch on the 4th gear signal wire and lock it out? or trick the computer into thinking the speed is slower than you are at?
SebringLX
07-21-2010, 09:40 PM
I thought you lost 4th gear? Or was it that it would not upshift to 4th?
I lost 4th, as a result, it's not possible to upshift into 4th, because it's not there.
Maybe you can install a switch on the 4th gear signal wire and lock it out? or trick the computer into thinking the speed is slower than you are at?
I think that either of those couple potentially send it into limp mode.
Actually I think this PSC transmission controller is the answer. It's $750 that I don't have right now, and I'm not sure how the NGC PCM would react, but I should have ways to make it play nice. With that I could raise the shift points, which would allow me to get some head work done, rev high, make more power, etc. It looks like you can also turn the lock-up off with it.
Check out that neons.org thread I posted. It's pretty long but there's a lot of good info. I found that there are some quotes from me taking from other forums on there. I also found a reference to you Simon, something about Jerry aka TurboJerry from here, who was an "associate" of AJ, the guy that built my trans.
turbovanmanČ
07-21-2010, 11:47 PM
I lost 4th, as a result, it's not possible to upshift into 4th, because it's not there.
I think that either of those couple potentially send it into limp mode.
Actually I think this PSC transmission controller is the answer. It's $750 that I don't have right now, and I'm not sure how the NGC PCM would react, but I should have ways to make it play nice. With that I could raise the shift points, which would allow me to get some head work done, rev high, make more power, etc. It looks like you can also turn the lock-up off with it.
Check out that neons.org thread I posted. It's pretty long but there's a lot of good info. I found that there are some quotes from me taking from other forums on there. I also found a reference to you Simon, something about Jerry aka TurboJerry from here, who was an "associate" of AJ, the guy that built my trans.
Not sure what would happen, just throwing out ideas, ;)
Yep, TJ is here, he's been around along time, has tons of info, great guy. :thumb:
Haven't had time to read it yet.
ShadowFromHell
07-22-2010, 01:14 PM
To lock out 4th, what would happen if you interrupted the speed sensor wire? Make it read 0, or would it just stay in 2nd?
turbovanmanČ
07-22-2010, 01:28 PM
To lock out 4th, what would happen if you interrupted the speed sensor wire? Make it read 0, or would it just stay in 2nd?
It would go into limp mode.
SebringLX
07-22-2010, 03:44 PM
Got asked for the go-ahead to take the trans back out... Still saying it's either a "hard part" or a clutch. If it's a "hard part", probably going to cost me $600 to replace. If it's a clutch... he'll cover it free of charge since those are what he just replaced. I asked if he used the Alto Red Eagle clutches 'cause I'm pretty sure those are what was in there before, but I was talking to the other guy, not the owner that actually does the build, so he wasn't sure.
I told him I wanted a call before they replaced anything. If it is the clutch, and I still think it is, I want to make sure he uses the Alto Red Eagle clutches in it. However I did notice that Raybestos makes "gen2 Blue Plate Special" clutches for the 41TE.
Here is the Alto Red Eagle info: http://www.altousa.com/friction.htm
Here is the Raybestos gen2 Blue Plate Special info: http://www.raybestospowertrain.com/rpt_prod_f_gen2.php
Does anyone have experience with either or know if one is better than the other?
turbovanmanČ
07-22-2010, 04:46 PM
Go with the blue plate special, :lol:
Based ONLY on how persuasively those pages are written and not on experience.. i like the blue plates better too :p
turbovanmanČ
07-23-2010, 06:38 PM
Based ONLY on how persuasively those pages are written and not on experience.. i like the blue plates better too :p
Talked to my tranny guy today, he said they haven't had good luck with Alto's.
SebringLX
07-24-2010, 11:53 AM
I'll ask mine about it when I call for an update on Monday.
Speedeuphoria
07-24-2010, 05:43 PM
you should buy the rebuild kit parts from Steve Lockett in that thread on neons.org
and have this trans guy install it, I'm almost positive that what you just had was a stock rebuild and makes sense why it didnt last
SebringLX
07-25-2010, 11:59 AM
you should buy the rebuild kit parts from Steve Lockett in that thread on neons.org
and have this trans guy install it, I'm almost positive that what you just had was a stock rebuild and makes sense why it didnt last
Yeah well that's going to piss me off if they did. I made it very clear that I did not have stock parts in the trans, and I did not want stock parts used. I talked to AJ, and gave this trans shop his number, told them to call him if they had questions on what to use for a replacement. I'm sure they never called him. They insisted that most everything was in there was stock, except for the "high energy" clutches.
It lasted less than 200 miles. :\ I'll be finding out more tomorrow.
That's a bummer. From having been on the inside, i can tell you its hard as hell to actually get your money's worth out of a 'performance' build because since trans shops know that people dont know jack about whats inside transmissions, they know they cant easily get caught lying..
On the other hand, if you talk up how powerful your car is, they might give you a good build, but then give you a really bad warranty because now you've convinced them its going to break.
So its kind of a rough spot to be in to get a real performance build for a decent price and not end up with SOME part of the deal going crappy. Best of luck, though. Keep us updated!
SebringLX
07-28-2010, 09:11 AM
High-res carnage pics here: http://www.custommopar.net/images/transmission
It looks like I broke everything from the Underdrive Hub to the Front Planetary.
Looking at this schematic here: https://www.wittrans.com/Schematic.aspx?Transmission=A604&Schematic=3
It's parts 570 through 582.
If I'm not mistaken, all those parts are in this kit here: http://www.transmissionpartssales.com/a60441tegeartrainplanetaryset-1.aspx ?
shackwrrr
07-28-2010, 10:43 AM
High-res carnage pics here: http://www.custommopar.net/images/transmission
It looks like I broke everything from the Underdrive Hub to the Front Planetary.
Looking at this schematic here: https://www.wittrans.com/Schematic.aspx?Transmission=A604&Schematic=3
It's parts 570 through 582.
If I'm not mistaken, all those parts are in this kit here: http://www.transmissionpartssales.com/a60441tegeartrainplanetaryset-1.aspx ?
That link shows and says 4 pinion planetary. you dont want that if you broke a 5 pinion planetary.
SebringLX
07-28-2010, 11:02 AM
That link shows and says 4 pinion planetary. you dont want that if you broke a 5 pinion planetary.
How can you tell the difference? I'm guessing you spotted a 5 pinion planetary in one of the pics of my trans?
http://www.custommopar.net/images/transmission/SNC00540.jpg
That picture shows a 5 pinion planetary, but thats the rear planetary and i dont think its broken.. i think you'd be able to re-use it. As far as i know, all the front planets are 3 pinion..
Oh and btw, consider me impressed! Good job breaking that stuff!:eek:
Your UD gear clutches must have been doing a good job.. they were holding some serious power to put those marks in the UD hub splines in such a short time and shear it off its shaft!!:clap:
SebringLX
07-28-2010, 12:56 PM
That picture shows a 5 pinion planetary, but thats the rear planetary and i dont think its broken.. i think you'd be able to re-use it. As far as i know, all the front planets are 3 pinion..
Yeah it's only everything from the Underdrive hub up to the front planetary that seems to be broken.
Oh and btw, consider me impressed! Good job breaking that stuff!:eek:
Your UD gear clutches must have been doing a good job.. they were holding some serious power to put those marks in the UD hub splines in such a short time and shear it off its shaft!!:clap:
What would cause it to wear those marks in the splines all the way around? They were pretty deep.. You're saying it's the UD gear clutches that come in contact there? I didn't see any other part that had matching marks... I was thinking whatever was coming in contact with that there would have to show some signs of similar wear...
Would cryo treating help prevent this from happening again? As far as I know those are the original hard parts since nobody makes upgrades for the 96+ 41TE's. The upgrades available for these parts are for the 89-95, and the upgrade is to use the 96+ part from what I've seen. Cryo treating is the only thing I could think of that would maybe make it stronger.
turbovanmanČ
07-28-2010, 01:25 PM
There is no WAY those wear marks happened on the clutch hub that fast, that takes time so the breakage stuff, shitt happens but that worn hub should have been replaced. That is caused by the clutch discs moving when turned on and off, bikes do it too.
Also looks like regular clutch discs.
SebringLX
07-28-2010, 03:31 PM
There is no WAY those wear marks happened on the clutch hub that fast, that takes time so the breakage stuff, shitt happens but that worn hub should have been replaced. That is caused by the clutch discs moving when turned on and off, bikes do it too.
Also looks like regular clutch discs.
I agree, and so does AJ Berge (guy that built this trans for me 3 years ago). I called him and he said they should have caught it when they were doing the rebuild after the torque converter went out. He wants me to send him the whole "silver drum" and said it'd probably be $100-$500 to fix up depending on what can be re-used. I'm not sure what the "silver drum" is, I'm guessing the pat sitting next to the parts that I know are broken in pic # 536? It kind of looks like that goes over the top of those parts...
BadAssPerformance
07-28-2010, 04:43 PM
Ouch! When you break 'em, you break 'em Josh! Hope its not too painful! :(
I agree, and so does AJ Berge (guy that built this trans for me 3 years ago). I called him and he said they should have caught it when they were doing the rebuild after the torque converter went out. He wants me to send him the whole "silver drum" and said it'd probably be $100-$500 to fix up depending on what can be re-used. I'm not sure what the "silver drum" is, I'm guessing the pat sitting next to the parts that I know are broken in pic # 536? It kind of looks like that goes over the top of those parts...
Well, i was giving the benefit of the doubt but in retrospect its probably not deserved.. the previous builder probably DIDNT replace that piece, and that wear is the accumulation of the total miles since new.
Anyway, the silver drum is the entire input drum and everything that goes in it. Its on the left on this picture: http://www.custommopar.net/images/transmission/SNC00535.jpg
And its more accurate to say that those parts go inside the drum, not that it goes over the parts. When you pull that drum out of the transmission most of that stuff is held into it by snaprings.
What would cause it to wear those marks in the splines all the way around?........ I was thinking whatever was coming in contact with that there would have to show some signs of similar wear...
The wear is pretty much normal over time and happens to all sorts of transmissions so its nothing special, but yours is at the point where it should be replaced for sure. What rides there is the inner teeth of a clutch plate.. sometimes they show similar amounts of wear, but sometimes they dont. You can see some clutch teeth clearly in this picture:
http://www.custommopar.net/images/transmission/SNC00542.jpg
SebringLX
07-28-2010, 05:18 PM
Well, i was giving the benefit of the doubt but in retrospect its probably not deserved.. the previous builder probably DIDNT replace that piece, and that wear is the accumulation of the total miles since new.
Yeah but still... 50k miles in 7 years, and only 3 years and 10k of those miles with the added power of the turbo...
Anyway, the silver drum is the entire input drum and everything that goes in it. Its on the left on this picture: http://www.custommopar.net/images/transmission/SNC00535.jpg
And its more accurate to say that those parts go inside the drum, not that it goes over the parts. When you pull that drum out of the transmission most of that stuff is held into it by snaprings.
Cool that's what I thought.
The wear is pretty much normal over time and happens to all sorts of transmissions so its nothing special, but yours is at the point where it should be replaced for sure. What rides there is the inner teeth of a clutch plate.. sometimes they show similar amounts of wear, but sometimes they dont. You can see some clutch teeth clearly in this picture:
http://www.custommopar.net/images/transmission/SNC00542.jpg
Well it kind of has to be replaced now. :P Since the clutches were replaced before this part broke, I could see why they do not have matching wear marks. I'm sure the old clutches may have.
Reaper1
07-29-2010, 06:31 PM
WOW!! I agree with everybody else. That is wear that is "normal" over a long period of time. If the parts were NOT like that when it was built, then that says the clutches were too sloppy and banging into gear. The other thing I can think of is if the hub isn't hardened enough. What *could* happen is that the transmission could be in that gear and if the tires are slipping, then suddenly grab it will also cause a shock loading on those parts, however I'm not inclined to think that's what hapened here.
Chryo-treating *might* help, but I think that either a different surface hardening process or a different material is called for here. A coating might prolong that wear, but I doubt it would last an length of time. Nitride treating might help, or even chrome plating (I know it sounds strange, but it *might* work due to the properties of chrome).
It's expensive any way you do it. Going with a brand new part and trying again might prove to work fine. If it doesn't, we're back to square one and adding pages to this thread, that discuss a fix.
Id just go with a not-worn oem piece (even used) and put it back together. Stock parts are cheap (unless you're paying ridiculous markup.. i would guess i can get that piece for $10-20) and you'll have this thing apart often enough that you'll probably always catch it before it becomes an actual funcional problem.
Reaper1
07-30-2010, 01:19 AM
I hope he doesn't have it apart that often! I think he is too...hence the want/need to use a more durable piece.
turbovanmanČ
07-30-2010, 01:43 AM
I would put it together now, get the season over with and redo it over winter, learn how to do it yourself and get some help from the 4 speed guys who know how to build them to last.
SebringLX
07-30-2010, 10:04 AM
I certainly DO NOT want to have it apart often. I'd rather not have it apart again for several years.
I would like to put together a required tools list so I can try and do it myself in my garage if I ever need to again though. Most of these parts are pretty cheap. The labor charges of having someone else do it suck big time.
Captain Chaos
07-30-2010, 12:25 PM
I certainly DO NOT want to have it apart often. I'd rather not have it apart again for several years.
I would like to put together a required tools list so I can try and do it myself in my garage if I ever need to again though. Most of these parts are pretty cheap. The labor charges of having someone else do it suck big time.
Find a spare trans, buy the tools and rebuild it as a spare in your spare time when you aren't rushed and can work and ask questions if need be.:thumb:
Yeh, the reality is there IS no aftermarket piece for that ud hub, the only thing you could do would be try some wacky stuff on it that you have no idea if it will actually work.
Realistically, everybody who tries to go fast on automatic transmissions has them apart way more often than people with the same transmission in stock cars. We're taking a transmission that at best was put behind a 240lb ft engine, and probably putting about 400 lb ft through it.
People trying to put 600 lb ft through a turbo350 that was designed for 350 have the same problems.. they have to spend money and go into it more often too..
turbovanmanČ
07-30-2010, 01:38 PM
I certainly DO NOT want to have it apart often. I'd rather not have it apart again for several years.
I would like to put together a required tools list so I can try and do it myself in my garage if I ever need to again though. Most of these parts are pretty cheap. The labor charges of having someone else do it suck big time.
I hear you but that is the life of an auto behind a built turbo motor. One year, I think I had it out 5 times, and then I split the cases on the starting line, :wow1:
I like the idea of buying a spare and going thru it at your own pace over winter and making or having pieces made or modified as needed.
And if you haven't done it, I've suggested this numerous times and can't stress how this will save alot of damage, run an inline filter on the cooler lines, I would run one on each line now you've blown it up a few times, get the ones with a magnet, they will save you alot of money as they catch all the metal crap.
I would still get yours running for now, do the new pieces better clutch's and finish off the year.
Yeh, the reality is there IS no aftermarket piece for that ud hub, the only thing you could do would be try some wacky stuff on it that you have no idea if it will actually work.
Realistically, everybody who tries to go fast on automatic transmissions has them apart way more often than people with the same transmission in stock cars. We're taking a transmission that at best was put behind a 240lb ft engine, and probably putting about 400 lb ft through it.
People trying to put 600 lb ft through a turbo350 that was designed for 350 have the same problems.. they have to spend money and go into it more often too..
Very true, I lost track of how many times mines been out but I still love it, lol.
SebringLX
07-30-2010, 02:19 PM
I've been offered a "free" trans, I just have to pay shipping costs from the east coast to here. I still need to know what tools are required for getting the trans in and out of the car. I'm sure it's a bit harder to do without the luxury of a lift.
It is harder but definitely not impossible.
From having worked in a transmission shop, the only 'special tools' i can really think of that i used all the time to get trannies in and out is long extensions (more of an issue on RWD) and wobble sockets.. But , wobble sockets are 'mechanic's tools' and $$$. i think my set of 3/8 drive metric wobble sockets from 10-19mm retailed for like $340 when i bought them. Of course, there are some you never use on a dodge, like 9mm, 11, 12, and 17.. buying a few good wobble sockets piecemeal in the few sizes you'll actually use might be worth the money.
The rest of the tools for r&r are pretty much generic hand tools.
turbovanmanČ
07-30-2010, 08:02 PM
Don't you need a stand or press for the clutch packs? I made one for my A413.
Oh, yeah, i was just thinking about what tools to get it in and out.. lol.. oops.
Reaper1
07-31-2010, 01:26 AM
I agree with building a spare in your own time. That way you get a hands on point of view of all the parts, so if one fails you might be able to diagnose and prepare a better fix.
I STILL believe that it can be made to handle the power, be streetible, and be reliable.
Careful thought and planning of modifications can yeild awesome results!
turbovanmanČ
07-31-2010, 01:08 PM
I STILL believe that it can be made to handle the power, be streetible, and be reliable.
Careful thought and planning of modifications can yeild awesome results!
I should read that thread on Neons.org, they've probably come up with a few things.
SebringLX
08-02-2010, 09:11 AM
Don't you need some special kind of jack too?
Depends how you do it..
I, personally, find that when im doing the transmission 'on the ground' (not on a lift) that the easiest thing to do is use an engine hoist to lower it down from the top.
The bottom of the 604 is not flat at all, and the flat pan surface is too far forward of the center of gravity of the trans so even if you angle a trans jack up to the pan, the trans would fall off towards the back. When i used to do them on the lift with a trans jack, i would have to use pieces of 2x4s as spacers to build up to all its weird surfaces so the jack would hold it level while i lowered it down, and even then i put a strap around the whole thing just in case.
So, on the ground, i would try a hoist first if you have one.
SebringLX
08-02-2010, 04:41 PM
So, on the ground, i would try a hoist first if you have one.
I don't have a hoist. I have a few very basic tools and that's about it.
Taking it out from the top would involve removing a lot of stuff. The trans shop was able to get it out from the bottom (they do have the benefit of a lift though) without having to remove anything else.
On the top side, the intake, the piping from the turbo to the IC, and probably a portion of the piping from the IC to the TB including the BOV are in the way. Plus several vacuum lines, wiring, and fuel lines are in the way too.
And you can get to the top bellhousing bolts, the shift cable, the solenoid pack connector bolt, the rear mount, and all that other stuff from the bottom?
Believe me, you could easily spend more time and energy trying to figure out the 'easy way' than you would just pulling it all.
SebringLX
08-03-2010, 09:40 AM
And you can get to the top bellhousing bolts, the shift cable, the solenoid pack connector bolt, the rear mount, and all that other stuff from the bottom?
Believe me, you could easily spend more time and energy trying to figure out the 'easy way' than you would just pulling it all.
Don't know, never tried it. Like I said, I just know the trans shop got it out from the bottom without touching anything else.
Anyway... how hard/expensive would it be to get billet hard parts made? I'm thinking 4340 steel... Good/bad idea?
I have no idea where you could do that or how much it would cost. My guess is 'exorbitant'. Even the mass-produced high-strength-better-metal-thicker-made parts for the common trannies are pretty expensive.
In all the time i spent dropping fwd trans on a lift, i never ever had one where no work was done from the top. Usually i removed everything that needed to be removed from the top, lifted the car, and did the rest from the bottom. It went back together in reverse order. What makes you think they didnt r&r pieces on the top?
BadAssPerformance
08-03-2010, 01:44 PM
Can any of the (readily available and potentially stronger) 3 speed parts work in it?
turbovanmanČ
08-03-2010, 01:49 PM
Don't know, never tried it. Like I said, I just know the trans shop got it out from the bottom without touching anything else.
Anyway... how hard/expensive would it be to get billet hard parts made? I'm thinking 4340 steel... Good/bad idea?
You can't get it out from the top unless you remove the engine first, lol.
Yeah, you lower the trans then unbolt the bellhousing bolts, with a hoist, its not that hard to do, but if you have a jack, a tranny jack or the tranny jack piece that goes on a trans jack and maybe a cherry picker, you can easily do it on your back, I used to do trans at home in my younger days, :o
Money can buy you anything, so yeah, if you want to build stronger stuff, then find a local trans shop or machine shop and they can design build but it won't be cheap.
Can any of the (readily available and potentially stronger) 3 speed parts work in it?
Not that I know off. :( and really, there still isn't much A413 stuff available either.
SebringLX
08-03-2010, 02:42 PM
I have no idea where you could do that or how much it would cost. My guess is 'exorbitant'. Even the mass-produced high-strength-better-metal-thicker-made parts for the common trannies are pretty expensive.
In all the time i spent dropping fwd trans on a lift, i never ever had one where no work was done from the top. Usually i removed everything that needed to be removed from the top, lifted the car, and did the rest from the bottom. It went back together in reverse order. What makes you think they didnt r&r pieces on the top?
When I got it back the 1st time, I asked, because I wanted to make sure all the IC piping was put back together right and tight, didn't want to run into any boost leaks.
This time around, when I went in to see the damage, the car was still up on the lift and the trans was on a bench. I walked under the car and looked up where my trans should be, and saw all of that stuff untouched.
Can any of the (readily available and potentially stronger) 3 speed parts work in it?
Don't think so.
I'm going to start a new thread for 41TE Beef-up theory.
When I got it back the 1st time, I asked, because I wanted to make sure all the IC piping was put back together right and tight, didn't want to run into any boost leaks.
This time around, when I went in to see the damage, the car was still up on the lift and the trans was on a bench. I walked under the car and looked up where my trans should be, and saw all of that stuff untouched.
That's pretty unusual.. in gonna take a closer look at the next 2g stratus i see and figure out what they did. :hail:
turbovanmanČ
08-03-2010, 06:46 PM
That's pretty unusual.. in gonna take a closer look at the next 2g stratus i see and figure out what they did. :hail:
They just lower it down enough to get at the top bolts, :thumb:
SebringLX
08-04-2010, 11:05 AM
I told them to just put stock replacement parts back in. They got the parts in the other day, it will be done soon. Unfortunately I won't be able to pick the car up until the 13th even though it should be done long before that.
SebringLX
08-19-2010, 09:15 AM
So the car is STILL at the trans shop. Called yesterday, they said everything was all put back together finally, but now the passenger side axle is leaking. Something about trying 3 different seals on it and it's still leaking. :\ It wasn't leaking when I dropped it off! Well the axle wasn't, the trans was.
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