Bad Deals... discuss here.

[Frank]

As you know we have had a running rule that deals gone bad are not to be discussed or brought up here because it makes our life difficult. This is mainly due to the fact that we dont want to be involved with something that we are not responsible for and dont want to be involved in. Call it slightly selfish, but it difficult to deal with 'he said' 'she said' stuff.

We are thinking of a neighboorhood watch type of area because even though people are part of this board, they can be ripped off elsewhere. We are looking for discussions on your part and to see what you all think of the rules.

We want to implement a sub forum under the feedback section. This area will very specific in rules. In order to post a deal gone bad elsewhere, you have to be the victim, no one can respond, you must provide proof in the form of an URL or something, and you have to contact the moderator assigned to that forum to be contend the post and he will post an update to the thread. If the person who is at fault a member of this board, then their rights to the for sale section is removed until they make it right.

What do you think? We are open for discussion and suggestions or other ideas. Depending on what is said here and how viable the idea is, we will post a poll in the following weeks to decide on the implementation, etc.


Frank

[altered7151]

I think its a great idea, especially since I just got done dealing with a scammer from TD.com. I think it should simply be a list of deadbeats not really a thread. Just a post of known deadbeats with all their known screen-names, emails, and physical addresses. That way you can quickly scan the list to see if someone is on there you are thinking about dealing with, and not have to sift through pages of replies. A single post that would be updated by only the forum mod would be ideal.

[Frank]

Thats cool. Nice and simple method.


Frank

[BIGBRUDDA]

Frank: Could a "hit man" be dispatched from this page?:D :evil: :eyebrows:

[BadAssPerformance]

You come to me... and you ask me for a favor...

[Whorse]

What qualifies as "proof?" Lots of deals are done through PMs and aren't really tracked.

[Frank]

Proof by URL from of the item for sale, and then proof of the transaction by whatever is nessary?

[turbovanman²]

Great idea but keep your original idea Frank then have a sticky at the top of the forum listing all the deadbeats. That way, you can scroll thru each bad deal or if your in a hurry, just click on the sticky and see the bad guys.

[Turbo Joe]

another cool tool that might be possible to have here is a search button that is only trying to match scrren names or address's paypal id's. kinda like the search this forum botton..

[BadAssPerformance]

can the advanced search already do that?

[looneytuner]

I would almost like a proof of id before being allowed to post in FS. (listing from phone book as in THE paper page sent to mods, something that proves who someone is)
I am wary of anyone with Yahoo, hotmail or easy id. I have two yahoo. One for legitimate emails and one for harassing scammers. I can get a million fake yahoos in every country. I can get totally bogus id's from fake sites that relay emails.
How about 6 months on forum before selling??
Anyone buying through pm's should save them until the transaction is successfully completed.
I'm hoping the "Frank" on 1quik4's" forum is a different one?

[Frank]

"Frank"??? Not I.

Anyway, people selling on here isnt as much of a problem as people selling outside of this forum. That is what hurts and something we have shy'ed away from.


Frank

[ShelbyMotorsports]

Seems this thread is a better place to reply to Ken's post.


#1 READ THE ENTIRE THREAD. I hope I'm not the only one involved in the running of the board to take offense. We helped drive the bus and were among the 1st to get involved towards getting the VC shipped.

#2 Read the board members forum. We were ALREADY in action regarding the issue before this utter B U L L S H I T happened.

Ken I did re-read the entire thread before I posted and did I not say I was optimistic that something was being done by TM.com behind the scenes?

My comment about tm.com re-thinking their policy was based on this quote by Frank:


As you know we have had a running rule that deals gone bad are not to be discussed or brought up here because it makes our life difficult. This is mainly due to the fact that we dont want to be involved with something that we are not responsible for and dont want to be involved in. Call it slightly selfish, but it difficult to deal with 'he said' 'she said' stuff.

Frank then followed up with this:


Depending on what is said here and how viable the idea is, we will post a poll in the following weeks to decide on the implementation, etc.

Call me crazy but nowhere does it say that a change has already been made. It does spell out the current tm.com rule and is followed up with the possibility of changing the rule at a later date.

I don't know why you would be offended because I posted that this current rip-off is exactly why TM.com needs to abolish the rule of we don't get involved.

It is the people getting ripped off that should be offended. I've bought three items here on TM.com and was ripped off on two out of the three.

Did I blame tm.com? Nope sure didn't. Did I cry about it to tm.com? Nope sure didn't.

I knew the rules/policy of tm.com and after the second rip-off I made the decision to no longer buy anything on tm.com unless I know the person.

My previous post was not based on just the v/cover fiasco but was more about the overall increase in members ripping off members because they know they can get away with it.

Sorry that your upset but perhaps that anger should be directed at the members who are ripping off others.

Steve

[Frank]

Steve... I dont think Ken is offended by what you said. Ken is stating in #1 that you arent the only one offended by the actions of people being ripped off because we helped to pay for that VC to be shipped. We drive the bus here, we got involved, and we even got hosed.

Ken is never mad about things until he is either ripped off or lied too.


Frank

[ShelbyMotorsports]

Steve... I dont think Ken is offended by what you said. Ken is stating in #1 that you arent the only one offended by the actions of people being ripped off because we helped to pay for that VC to be shipped.

Frank

Well perhaps I misunderstood Kens post. It seemed like he was PO'd at me for my post.

If that's not the case then I indeed misunderstood his reply.

Steve

[GLHSKEN]

LOL... The wording did not suggest that to me at the time Steve. Then again... it was the end of the work day when I read it ;)

We are going to do something. We will have a poll opened soon as soon as suggestions are compiled. It makes sense to shift policy now. TM has been up long enough that he said she said is known to not be tolerated.

Just the facts. Implimentation is the next step.

[GLHSKEN]

Nope long week... but the wicked witch is dead. Life is grand...

[Whorse]

I've seen posts on here starting out as someone saying they are/were having a tough time dealing with a sale on the site, and seen them resolved in the same thread, or in other cases, brought to life someone known to be ripping people off. I think that it's important to discuss these things, as I was almost one of the people buying parts off someone who didn't even own the car. It's getting very personal and playing word games, like what just seemed to have happened in here, that needs to be taken care of.

I agree that it's up to those running the site to decide when and when not to get involved, because every case has special circumstances. It's safer to say they won't get involved, and then do it from time to time when it's appropriate, then to go to the hassle of trying to deal with every situation. This is a community, so let's work as one - this is a good start here.

[Frank]

Well said Whorse. I think we keep it as such, but we have a volunteer/moderator to post deals gone wrong in a single sticky that people can keep track off. OR.

[ShelbyMotorsports]

Frank & Ken

I'm sure you know this already but a lot of us do understand how PO'd you guys are with the v/cover fiasco. What a slap in the face it's turned into.

I've been trying to think of a way to reduce these type of bad deals and the only thing I'm coming up with is to make the f/s area a paid member only type of thing.

By that I mean that you can only post things for sale if you are a contributing member. I'm pretty positive that the original seller of the v/cover would not have become a paid member of tm.com just so they could run a scam.

Everyone would be able to see the ads so the potential for a sale is still there but to list an ad you must be a paid member. Kind of like the SDAC newsletter, in general you gotta be a member to list a f/s ad.

Just an idea that may help.

Steve

[Frank]

Thanks for the contribution. Lot to meld over coming soon.


Frank

[Whorse]

Why not just make the parts for sale for contributing members only, and the unrestricted swap meet for anyone and anything, buyer beware?

[GLHSKEN]

Frank & Ken

I'm sure you know this already but a lot of us do understand how PO'd you guys are with the v/cover fiasco. What a slap in the face it's turned into.

I've been trying to think of a way to reduce these type of bad deals and the only thing I'm coming up with is to make the f/s area a paid member only type of thing.

By that I mean that you can only post things for sale if you are a contributing member. I'm pretty positive that the original seller of the v/cover would not have become a paid member of tm.com just so they could run a scam.

Everyone would be able to see the ads so the potential for a sale is still there but to list an ad you must be a paid member. Kind of like the SDAC newsletter, in general you gotta be a member to list a f/s ad.

Just an idea that may help.

Steve

And a DAMN good one at that. That's been my feeling for a while. Membership has its priveledge's... Members can then be warned that when dealing with a non-member, through pm they are on their own...

BTW, Fleck called me to talk me out of the bell tower with my sniper rifle... I laughed my A S S off!!

[Frank]

HAHAHAHAHA. I almost called you with something similar.


Frank

[GLHSKEN]

LOL... You know me nothing needed. Business as usual.. BTW.. Ding Dong... the witch is dead... Fleck knows the meaning of this!!! and its a good thing. Hell I'm, waking up before the alarm clock!!!

[cordes]

I have read threads on all the boards that have made me leary of dealing with specific people. There is no know list of good guys and bad guys that is updated regularly though.

I will throw out my suggestion again...

The guys on AR15.com are not Fing around when they do deals. ANYONE can sell on there, but it is easy to check guys out which you will see in the links to follow. I will tell you guys that a guy with over 40K posts who had been on the board from the beginning was banned permanently because he could not make right on a $100 deal.

If you screw some one over, and can back it up the offender is baned for ever, and their rep is pretty much set in stone in the internet firearms community.

I realize that running a feedback section like this would take a lot of work, but I would gladly help out if need be. I know that one could do a search for some one's name and read threads about them, but when you can pull up a single thread which alphabetically lists EVER ONE who has had positive feed back or otherwise and how much of it, it sure helps to keep people as honest as can be.

Just like in the real world you can't stop people from getting ripped off, but, "we can, and we must do better than we are doing now."

Aforementioned links

http://www.ar15.com/forums/board.html?b=7

http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=7&f=109

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=109&t=325968

Take a hard look at that board, as it moves 100s of thousands of dollars every week with few problems.

[Lugert]

The "paid member" area is not the solution in my eye.
I think it will send people to sell their parts other places, www.turbododge.com or boosted mopar and not incurr a "fee".

You may also be taking some opportunities to buy parts/cars away from the regular members here which inturn will force them to do their surfing and parts finding other places on the net.

A person who just wants to dump their grandma's old turbo car will not want to pay to sell, do you think?

A lot to consider.

[turbovanman²]

^^^^I have to agree with Bryan, members who have to pay to sell won't and will find other forums which are free to sell there wares. In the end, all we can do is monitor and warn, IE the Scott H cluster f*ck, all boards now know he's bad and he probably won't sell another part or car to anyone who is a member of these forums.

Maybe do a PM or email to members of known bad sellers???????????

[Whorse]

I've received a few PMs from people warning me of others, basically just links to problems, or ebay reps.

[mech1nxh]

very very very interesting....
read this through twice to get my mind around the core idea.....

a couple of thoughts come to mind....

accountability.....as CORDES mentioned....
implementation ...as BRYAN mentioned

as far as being accountable goes......
IF YOU TYPE IT YOU HAVE SPOKEN IT.....
your word MUST be your bond...IF YOU ARE HONEST...PERIOD.

implementation.....
a difficult formula....but not insurmountable...
any honest member of the community (short term like me)
or long term , will have a history of interaction with community
members...
THE PROOF IS IN THOSE DEALINGS.....

my humble .02$...a single person , (or 2-3 people) validating
info...come on now, not gestapo...you know what I mean
would be excellent.

no one can legislate the human spirit...there is no formula for
total protection, but ....as this community is very close ,
gazer ripoff aholes could be marked almost immediatly..

so..sorry for the long post...
and CORDES, I will help with any research needed, should the board decide
to go that route.

[BIG PSI]

I am on the bubble of what I think is a bad deal that happened to me. I will say more on this come Friday 6-23-06 if all does not go as it should. My deal is over $650.00 so it is a rather large amount.

Until Then
Chuck

[ShelbyMotorsports]

You may also be taking some opportunities to buy parts/cars away from the regular members here which inturn will force them to do their surfing and parts finding other places on the net.


Bryan

All members and visitors will be able to see and buy any parts the only restriction is that to SELL you would need to be a contributing member.

So no opportunity to buy parts/cars would be taken away from anyone.

It's not a perfect solution but the current ways are not working.

Steve

[ShelbyMotorsports]

If you screw some one over, and can back it up the offender is banned for ever, and their rep is pretty much set in stone in the internet firearms community.


Cordes

Good point and something that should be looked at further.

The difference is that I can't think of one person on any Dodge Turbo Shelby board that has ever been permanently banned. Can you?

We've seen 100% proof of rip offs with the scammer even admitting it and they don't get a permanent ban.

We've seen certain ____________ (fill in the blank) that go from board to board to do nothing but cause trouble with their outrageous conduct and they don't get a permanent ban.

We've seen the majority of what I call old timers (you know the ones that have the knowledge base because they were either there from day one or have done it already) get fed up and leave the various boards because of a few clowns and again these clowns don't get a permanent ban.

We've seen one or two people disrupt the SDAC conventions in the past with their antics and the same thing goes for them, never seen a permanent ban.

So while the AR15 boards have the strength to ban members so far the Dodge Turbo Shelby boards/lists/clubs have not stepped up to the plate in this regards.

Please notice that I said BOARDS, MAILING LISTS, CLUBS, etc and I'm not singling out any one group. I'm talking our community in general.

[Lugert]

Bryan

All members and visitors will be able to see and buy any parts the only restriction is that to SELL you would need to be a contributing member.

So no opportunity to buy parts/cars would be taken away from anyone.

It's not a perfect solution but the current ways are not working.

Steve

Steve,

Scenerio:
I want to sell my Dad's 1986 GLHS, but I have to pay a "fee" to sell it here.
Guess what, I go to another site and sell it.
Members here just lost the opportunity to buy that car.

-Bryan

[Frank]

Your point is still taken in terms of banning and it is appreciated. We did start this site trying to keep a clean slate and being very upfront about it mainly because we didnt want a lot of drama when starting the board on how to handle them. Not to mention is that we have no reference since anyone could have created a username and we have no reference point on e-mails and ips since we knew that we would remove ourselves from power and the rest would be demoted. Since we could guarentee consistance with past issues in the beginning and being a NEW board, we felt that it was imparitive to go for a clean slate to start with. We have obviously found the need to move beyond that. Hence this thread has been started.

Alot of our goal is to provide a method of evaluation to keep out the nit picky, some form of scoring similar to the ar15 guys, and then a plan of action against someone. Currently we are looking at those who have outstanding issues on other boards/ebay during 2005 and prior to opening TM, we would remove their selling status, lounge area, and this area with the later ones - this is currently definened as a permininate access restriction. If the situation occured after the opening of the board, then we would ban the person. If the person corrects the situation and it was their only transgression, then partial access will be restored much like the above with a year access restriction. If it was more then 1 transgression and they correct ALL of them, it will be a partial access restriction and will be perminante. All others will be forever ban.

We are getting to upgrade to the next version of vBulletin. Once we do that, I will be upgrading the for sale areas that force location, e-mail, and phone number. These of course will be only viewable by those logged in, so no need for worrying about spam crawlers.

What are your thoughts?


Frank

[turbovanman²]

We are getting to upgrade to the next version of vBulletin. Once we do that, I will be upgrading the for sale areas that force location, e-mail, and phone number. These of course will be only viewable by those logged in, so no need for worrying about spam crawlers.

What are your thoughts?


Frank


Sounds very good. How about when you log in, a bad seller thread is shown in bold or make it stand out so you can't miss it, so newbies etc can see who not to buy from right off the bat?

[GLHSKEN]

We are at the paralysis mode right now. You cannot be all things to all people. Start a warning section... Let it roll from there. While a board can ATTEMPT to save people from themselves. They will NEVER be able to accomplish it.

The question is, is this a go forward from board creation, or are past gripes allowed... Should depend on the proof... And it must be presented

[ShelbyMotorsports]

Steve,

Scenerio:
I want to sell my Dad's 1986 GLHS, but I have to pay a "fee" to sell it here.
Guess what, I go to another site and sell it.
Members here just lost the opportunity to buy that car.

-Bryan


Ahhh got it.

[Frank]

I will be working on a iterem solution this eventhing then. We will go from there.


Frank

[ShelbyMotorsports]

Sounds very good. How about when you log in, a bad seller thread is shown in bold or make it stand out so you can't miss it, so newbies etc can see who not to buy from right off the bat?

If that can be done it may be a very good idea. Or maybe a link that can be placed on every for sale post advising people to check out the bad seller thread?

How about also including a possible bad seller list along with the known bad seller list.

When the Ford Shelby guys come across a situation that looks bad but just can't be proven bad they list it under a "Flashing Yellow" which means proceed with caution.

Known bad sellers & scams go under a "Red Light" heading which means stop, do not proceed.

[cordes]

The difference is that I can't think of one person on any Dodge Turbo Shelby board that has ever been permanently banned. Can you?


No, and I have a big problem with that. There have been several times in the past where I would liked to have seen a permanent ban, but did not and was quite dissapointed.





The question is, is this a go forward from board creation, or are past gripes allowed... Should depend on the proof... And it must be presented



I honestly don't know how you would be able to do anything other than the clean slate method that we have used thus far. Any thing else and it would have been a huge blow up I am sure. That is not some thing that this site needed, nor would it ever need. As some one else mentioned, PMs with links would be the tactful way to difuse a potential disaster. I think that would be up to the individuals in the community who have been around for a long time to step up and look out for others.


As I have stated before a master list of feed back goes a long way to keeping people honest when it is right infront of every ones face. I do look forward to the interem attempts at a solution though, as I am sure this crowd will come up with a solution.

[GLHSKEN]

Thanks... ^^^ we had to start this way, glad someone saw that. But like everything else it is a work in progress and it is time to make that change.

[supercrackerbox]

The difference is that I can't think of one person on any Dodge Turbo Shelby board that has ever been permanently banned. Can you?

I can think of one, but I don't believe it had anything to do with sales; therefore I'm hesitant to mention the name, lol, but I will if someone asks it.




We are getting to upgrade to the next version of vBulletin. Once we do that, I will be upgrading the for sale areas that force location, e-mail, and phone number. These of course will be only viewable by those logged in, so no need for worrying about spam crawlers.

What are your thoughts?Frank

I think that will definately be helpful.


We are at the paralysis mode right now. You cannot be all things to all people. Start a warning section... Let it roll from there. While a board can ATTEMPT to save people from themselves. They will NEVER be able to accomplish it.

The question is, is this a go forward from board creation, or are past gripes allowed... Should depend on the proof... And it must be presented

See, my situation (and the reason I'm now taking an active intrest in these threads) is I also paid for a part from Scott, 1quick4. I paid $125 for a '91 TI wiring harness on May 2nd. Before I sent the money, I did a quick search on both here and Turbododge for his selling history. I found plenty of good and bad, but most of the more recent ones had been good, so I took the gamble. I don't know if this was before or after the valvecover deal, to be honest I never made the time to read that whole thread. I do however have all the PM's for the whole deal, and an email I recieved from the owner of the paypal address I got three weeks ago while I was on vacation. But that was the last I've heard about anything. I am currently sending another email to that address giving him until Friday to at least respond before I go thru the refund process with Paypal.

[Frank]

Hey guys. Because of the difficult nature of the subject and how to implement it, our original plan has been modified. I am going to be implementing something similar to what was presented here and the AR15 has instore. THIS WONT BE FINAL and will only be changed with thourgh discussion here. Stay tuned!


Frank

[Frank]

Please review guys. what do you all think?
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5286


Frank

[BadAssPerformance]

If the bad deal took place during 2005 before TM was opened

makes it sound like 2004 dont count... should maybe say:

"If the bad deal took place before TM was opened in late 2005"

[Frank]

Willing to change that. I mearly copied what was before. I will adjust to say before TM opened, and if people want it changed, we will change it.


Frank

[turbovanman²]

Looks good.

[ShelbyMotorsports]

Hey guys. Because of the difficult nature of the subject and how to implement it, our original plan has been modified. I am going to be implementing something similar to what was presented here and the AR15 has instore. THIS WONT BE FINAL and will only be changed with thourgh discussion here. Stay tuned!


Frank

Just took a look at the ar15 forums and I like how they split up the user names into smaller groups like A-E, F-L, etc makes it much easier to find someone.

I also like how they attach a link to the f/s ad next to the bad feedback so people can see what actually happened.

I especially like the yellow and red warnings just like I posted about the Ford guys doing.

They also seem to allow bad feedback/warnings even if the other party is not a member of their board. For example I saw a few posts about ebay ads, craigs list and local gun dealers that were about warning members to stay away from.

Probably the biggest negative is there has to be a lot of work involved in creating and more importantly keeping current this type of info for the system to work.

I'm anxious to see what Frank has in the works.

Steve

[denviola]

Your bad deal thread in the Exchange Section looks good. There is a statement at the bottom saying a user can get back to no points against. Doesn't say how that is possible, at least that I can see. Perhaps that is where the extraneous circumstances clause applies.

[Frank]

Bad wording... I adjusted to hopefully be a little bit better

[Frank]

Clay asked me how long points last... they are forever or until they make right what was wrong.

[cordes]

This is looking pretty good. I really think that we are taking a huge step in the right direction.

As many others have pointed out the ARFCOM style of doing things is a big undertaking, but I know that there will be many who would gladly help out. Hopefully we won't have to take it that far any time soon.

[GLHSKEN]

I agree.. Big step.