Those running Turbonator cals, step on in.

[Aries_Turbo]

First things first, this is not a rip on rob in any way, shape or form.

I made/worked on two turbonator based cals while at SDAC, one LM based and one SMEC based. on both, i left the staging limiter turned off. both cars broke up real bad under load in the middle rpm range. i changed the timing across the board, still happened, i added/subtracted fuel, still happened.

I never got the chance to turn the staging limiter on and retest.

the LM setup got another cal (still T-LM based from another persons PC) with similar fuel and timing curves popped in with the staging limiter on and it revved clean to redline and pulled hard.

The SMEC cars cal was sort of a guess.... 2.5L Hybrid, E85 with 120lb injectors. it started on the first try and idled perfectly and revved up just fine. as soon as youd load it hard though, it would miss and pop out the exhaust real bad. the AFR was varied from 11.5:1 to as rich as 8.9:1 (via the cal and AFPR) and the total timing (including dist advance) anywhere from 17deg to 30deg where it started popping. map curves were very similar to 2.5L T1 and govner had more timing in it from 2600 but tapered to be similar to 2.5LT1 by redline. nothing seemed to affect it enough to be conclusive to why it was happening.....

anyone running a T-LM or a T-SMEC cal, thats tuned in reasonably, can you go out and turn the staging stuff off and go for a drive and hammer the car in at least 3rd gear or 4th gear?

thanks!

Brian

[bakes]

I had the staging limiter working OK no problems but this was the Cal that had the lean miss not the current Specs 2.2 t2 53# 3 bar staging set to 3500rpm off a 20mph , rev limit =7200 , top speed =260 , anti boost on , ATC sensor on,no ac, cruise on,

[Aries_Turbo]

i wanted to know of ones with the staging limiter off.... or if you are running a turbonator cal, can you turn the limiter off and go for a drive and report back. :)

i know the limiter works just fine and in fact, ive never turned it off before on cals that ive done or on my own cars. thats why i have the question.

brian

[bakes]

I had it on and turn off worked ok

[turbovanman²]

I never used it, couldn't get it work properly.

One cal I had to trick the computer into thinking the brake switch was on.

[amcpacer]

I use the staging limiter with nothing selected (brake/AC/ect switches) This way it goes off the distance sensor only. I tuned the cal version 10 Turbonator LM without the staging limiter on and never had any issues. When I turned it on last week I saw no difference except the limiter working when the car is stationary.

I have been using Robs Turbonator cals (modded for G-Head +20s H2O inject and 87 octane) on my daily driver for at least a year now. I love the cals. The only thing I can not seem to get working is the computer controlled boost so I am stuck using a MBC. My car is an 85 and I converted the wiring to be 87 but maybe the boost pneumatic control solenoid is different in 85 but I am not sure. I have tried multiple restrictor sizes in the line and still no success. Aside from the boost control issue the staging limiter does not seem to change anything else whether it is on or off.

Brian, are all of the config flags (RVLSWS) that pertain to turning on the staging limiter such as brake/AC/cruise) are being left unchecked while the limiter is turned off in the actual calibration configuration flags (CONFIG) area?

[Force Fed Mopar]

Basically what's happening guys, is when someone has a good Turbonator cal w/ the staged limiter, and then they decide to just turn the limiter off cause they don't need/like it, and all of a sudden it misses under boost in the upper revs.

We're trying to determine whether it's just individual cal issues, or whether there is an issue w/ the Turbonator cal where when you turn off the limiter, it changes something else as well and causes a miss.

[ShelGame]

I run T-SMEC in both my Daily driver minvan and (now) my Daytona race car. Set my fastest time ever with it a month ago or so.

I've never had that miss in the van, though it rarely sees the north side of 4k (or WOT for that matter) primarily being a freeway flyer. It doesn't use the staging limiter.

The Daytona gets shifted at 5200rpm and sees MOSTLY wot duty being restricted to track duty. No misfire. No staging limiter either.

This is all of course since the last update (v16.4 released ~end of May). Before that, I had some odd on-load transition misfires in the van. Like, light throttle accel. Those were due to being way too rich. Caused by a mistake I had in the way I was dis-abling the Charge Temp Sensor. I don't think it would have been a problem had I actually had the sensor installed.

So, please let me know what version and template of Turbonator you're using.

FWIW, actaully, I don't like the way the staging limiter works. For me, it lets the RPM vary too much. I want a more consistent RPM hold. I'vebeen working on a spark-cut mod for the rev limit code (well, at least the lower step of the 2-step). But, it's not working. So, please, do not check the 'spark cut limiter' box in the options.

[ShelGame]

Basically what's happening guys, is when someone has a good Turbonator cal w/ the staged limiter, and then they decide to just turn the limiter off cause they don't need/like it, and all of a sudden it misses under boost in the upper revs.

We're trying to determine whether it's just individual cal issues, or whether there is an issue w/ the Turbonator cal where when you turn off the limiter, it changes something else as well and causes a miss.

The staging limiter works a little bit differently in T-LM vs T-SMEC. So, I kind of doubt it could be the exact same problem in both. But, it's certainly worth looking into if multiple people are having the same issue...

Also, T-LM v11 has only been tested by a couple of people. I was trying to fix an issue where the staging limiter would come back on at high speed. Reeves has this problem in the Omni. Essentially, the speed reference overflows. Think of it like wrapping the Speedo around. It looks like you're going 3mph again when you're really over 128mph.

Anyway, I 'fixed' the wrong section of limiter code. This not only didn't fix the issue, but it caused some other weirdness with the rev limiter. So, Brian, don't base any conclusions off the test build of T-LM I sent you. It had a definite bug...

[risen]

I had a problem with both bb60 and T-LM where the car would break up around the torque peak. Tried shrinking the plug gap down and it didn't do anything. The might-soon-die I added fixed it, and that's the reason I'm working on a better COP/coilpack setup.

One thing did dawn on me while reading this, though. What if the enabling of the staging code is causing a reduction in dwell time? This is a bit of a stretch as, IIRC, the code grounds the coil for only a very brief period of time, it's always in dwell otherwise. It's main thing that the ECU has control over that could be different and would directly have an effect on spark quality.

Anyone have a scope that will let them test the dwell easily?

[Aries_Turbo]

i think some of you are missing the point.... Turbonator cals are great. i use them. i use them on others cars. that is not the problem.

the problem is that i had a wierd situation happen to me and i wanted some other folks to test it back to back. i didnt want them to come in here and say stuff like "i use the staging limiter.... it works great" or "i dont have any problems with the turbonator cals".

thats not what i asked at all.

what i asked for you to do is:

1. go out to your car thats running T-LM or T-SMEC and dialed in fairly well.

2. make a pass with the staging limiter enabled.

3. make a pass with the staging limiter disabled.

4. report back on your results.

you guys focused on the exact things i didnt want you to focus on.

Brian

[risen]

Well if you can wait a few weeks I will try that. My car needs a starter so testing it on a car will be hard for me to do. I can try and bench test with a scope if you'd like.

[turbovanman²]

i think some of you are missing the point.... Turbonator cals are great. i use them. i use them on others cars. that is not the problem.

the problem is that i had a wierd situation happen to me and i wanted some other folks to test it back to back. i didnt want them to come in here and say stuff like "i use the staging limiter.... it works great" or "i dont have any problems with the turbonator cals".

thats not what i asked at all.

what i asked for you to do is:

1. go out to your car thats running T-LM or T-SMEC and dialed in fairly well.

2. make a pass with the staging limiter enabled.

3. make a pass with the staging limiter disabled.

4. report back on your results.

you guys focused on the exact things i didnt want you to focus on.

Brian

Done it, ran fine both ways.

[Reeves]

It seems as if the speed overflow problem is fixed. At Edgewater this past Thursday I was going anywhere from 133 to 136 without hitting the staging rev-limiter. This mph was from the timeslip, not actual MPH, but I do know that over 135mph timeslip mph I would experience some rev-limit. Now I'm not! WooT! :thumb:

And for Bucar:
I use the staging rev-limiter, it works great!
I run Turbonator cals, they are great!

[ShelGame]

Brian - any conclusions from this study?

[Aries_Turbo]

i dont think so.

i also didnt get to do any testing on the new stuff this weekend either. maybe sometime this week on a 2.5L and definitely on a 2.2 next week.

brian

[moparman76_69]

So could this cause a rev-limiter or overboost type of cutout at a certain rpm?

[ShelGame]

Overboost and the rev limiter are the same cut - they're both a fuel cut. The 2-step is simply a rev limiter with a low RPM setpoint that is only active under certain conditions - like the brake switch is on and/or the car is going less than 3mph...

[bakes]

If the speed and distance sensor is flakey the two step might activate???

[ShelGame]

Yes, it might. If you only have it enabled on speed, and the SDS goes bad, you will likely get the 2-step rev limit all the time...

[3Bar_Mopar]

First things first, this is not a rip on rob in any way, shape or form.

I made/worked on two turbonator based cals while at SDAC, one LM based and one SMEC based. on both, i left the staging limiter turned off. both cars broke up real bad under load in the middle rpm range. i changed the timing across the board, still happened, i added/subtracted fuel, still happened.

I never got the chance to turn the staging limiter on and retest.

the LM setup got another cal (still T-LM based from another persons PC) with similar fuel and timing curves popped in with the staging limiter on and it revved clean to redline and pulled hard.

The SMEC cars cal was sort of a guess.... 2.5L Hybrid, E85 with 120lb injectors. it started on the first try and idled perfectly and revved up just fine. as soon as youd load it hard though, it would miss and pop out the exhaust real bad. the AFR was varied from 11.5:1 to as rich as 8.9:1 (via the cal and AFPR) and the total timing (including dist advance) anywhere from 17deg to 30deg where it started popping. map curves were very similar to 2.5L T1 and govner had more timing in it from 2600 but tapered to be similar to 2.5LT1 by redline. nothing seemed to affect it enough to be conclusive to why it was happening.....

anyone running a T-LM or a T-SMEC cal, thats tuned in reasonably, can you go out and turn the staging stuff off and go for a drive and hammer the car in at least 3rd gear or 4th gear?

thanks!

Brian

This could be what's up with my problem in this thread. (http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53506)...Which is what I think Moparman was talking about. I have the exact same symptoms.

[cordes]

Yes, it might. If you only have it enabled on speed, and the SDS goes bad, you will likely get the 2-step rev limit all the time...

I've had it fail both ways IIRC. Once I had it fail where it wouldn't rev past the set limits of the 2-step, and another time it wouldn't work at all.

[3Bar_Mopar]

This could be what's up with my problem in this thread. (http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53506)...Which is what I think Moparman was talking about. I have the exact same symptoms.

Also...turned out not to be the MAP sensor vac line...

[Reeves]

Yes, it might. If you only have it enabled on speed, and the SDS goes bad, you will likely get the 2-step rev limit all the time...

Or if you leave it unplugged......