Carbed shelby charger help!

[1984rampage]

Anyone have a vacuum diagram for a carbed high output shelby charger? Also, does the wiring come off of the carb need to be hooked up? There isnt any place in the wiring harness to plug them in.

Also, what can be removed from the engine bay as far as emissions crap and everything? I just want to have the bare minimum needed to have the car run well

[bris09]

Vacuum diagram.

http://www.knizefamily.net/minimopar/vacuum.html

This should be a plug right by the carb. Not sure how it will run with the plug disconnected, I've never tried it. I would think it will run ok.

Depending on your emissions laws you can ditch the air pump although I had a Dodge tech (who was very good at making these cars run) tell me the airpump takes very little power to run and you won't see a difference without. I believe him because I had to put all the parts on thanks to PA and I don't see the slightest difference.

[ScottD]

Without the emissions garbage I have a vac hose off the manifold and one vac line running from the carb to the spark computer :-)

[rbryant]

I just want to have the bare minimum needed to have the car run well

Then you will need to throw away the carburated intake manifold, the carburator, the gas tank, the fuel lines, the alternator, the wiring, and the computer and swap in the corresponding components from a TBI omni.

Then all of your problems are solved.

;)

-Rich

[ScottD]

Then you will need to throw away the carburated intake manifold, the carburator, the gas tank, the fuel lines, the alternator, the wiring, and the computer and swap in the corresponding components from a TBI omni.

Then all of your problems are solved.

;)

-Rich

This is a common misperception that the carb'd cars will never run right. Not true.

With the Weber 32/36 DFEV and the emissions garbage taken out of the mix, a carb'd car can run very well.

[1984rampage]

Then you will need to throw away the carburated intake manifold, the carburator, the gas tank, the fuel lines, the alternator, the wiring, and the computer and swap in the corresponding components from a TBI omni.

Then all of your problems are solved.

;)

-Rich

LOL! I personally wanted to swap the spare turbo top-end and spare wiring I have and have a low boost high compression turbo car, but my little brother (whom I gave the car to) is dead set on it staying carb'd

[rbryant]

This is a common misperception that the carb'd cars will never run right. Not true.

With the Weber 32/36 DFEV and the emissions garbage taken out of the mix, a carb'd car can run very well.


One thing that you probably wouldn't debate is that the Holly carbs that come on the lbody never run well.

Once you accept that you can either choose the Weber approach or go with the cheaper and more readily available TBI system. The TBI system is more wiring and more complex but it is really plug and play, install and forget.


I won't debate that a car with a decent carb can run well. It will however have to be tuned from time to time so the maintenance aspect is higher.

-Rich

[rbryant]

LOL! I personally wanted to swap the spare turbo top-end and spare wiring I have and have a low boost high compression turbo car, but my little brother (whom I gave the car to) is dead set on it staying carb'd

Boost with compression really isn't such a good setup. It is much harder to tune due to the increases in combustion chamber temperatures that the compression makes.

You just can't intercool compression. Plus the pistons are weak on top of that unless you get forged ones.

-Rich

[bris09]

This is a common misperception that the carb'd cars will never run right. Not true.

With the Weber 32/36 DFEV and the emissions garbage taken out of the mix, a carb'd car can run very well.

So that is why yours idles so much better when cold than mine. I really need to find a Weber. I still think its funny that Chrysler used 19 different carbs in 83 alone. The fact that the car has a/c narrowed it down to 1 of 16.

[ScottD]

One thing that you probably wouldn't debate is that the Holly carbs that come on the lbody never run well.

Once you accept that you can either choose the Weber approach or go with the cheaper and more readily available TBI system. The TBI system is more wiring and more complex but it is really plug and play, install and forget.


I won't debate that a car with a decent carb can run well. It will however have to be tuned from time to time so the maintenance aspect is higher.

-Rich

I've heard some people say they've had good luck with the Holley 5220 non-feedback carbs and others say all Holleys are junk. I did have the 6520 feedback Holley on my former 86 Turismo 2.2 that I owned from 1989-1993 and the feedback carb was crap. The 5220 I can't say because I have no direct experience with one. I researched the carb issue and ended up going with the Weber based on a few others having good luck. It is hard to find people who've gone this route because many assume that because the Holleys on a 2.2 had issues, so will all other carbs on a 2.2 and this is not the case.

Converting a carb'd car to TBI is a LOT of work. You need the engine bay harness, underdash harness, EFI fuel tank, throttle body and intake, etc. You're taking the head off to swap manifolds, you're taking the dash out to swap the dash harness, etc. You could probably find an 88-90 Omni/Horizon for all the needed parts for $200, plus you're adding in other parts such as head gasket and bolts. Personally, if I was going to do all that work I'd just convert the car to MPFI turbo and not bother with TBI.

A new Weber cost me $270. With the Weber you take the throttle arm off the Holley and mate it to the Weber, bolt the carb on, get rid of the emissions stuff and you're basically done. I don't see much to tune, once I got the base idle, fast idle, choke, and air/fuel mix adjusted (all were off on a brand new out of the box Weber) I haven't touched it in the last 6 mos and in that time I've put 3500 miles on it. I could fool around with jets but the car is running great with the jets that came with the Weber, the a/f ratio looks good at WOT, I don't see the need to fool with them. I'm also seeing 23-25mpg in town and 30hwy.

While there are merits to TBI, from a cost/time/hassle standpoint, I feel Weber 32/36 DFEV carb'd is the way to go vs TBI, especially if you find a nice rust free 82-87 carb'd Lbody, which can still be found out there.

[1984rampage]

Anyone know the difference between the DFEV and DFAV weber carbs? One is electric choke (DFEV) and the other is "aqua" or water choke (DFAV).. I cant seem to find a deal on the DFAV carbs anywhere but I can pick up a DFAV for cheap on ebay. From what I can tell they are exactly the same except for the chokes.

I really dont even know what the choke does anyway. Anyone care to explain?

If the DFAV carb will work, I'll be sure to pick it up..

[ScottD]

http://www.webercarbsdirect.com/32_36_DGAV_p/22680.051b.htm

I'm guessing with the water choke you're plumbing coolant lines to the choke and that's how the choke operates, off how hot the coolant is. The Holleys have an electric choke, so when you use the DFEV the factory connector for the choke plugs right into the Weber, nothing to mess with there.

[1984rampage]

http://www.webercarbsdirect.com/32_36_DGAV_p/22680.051b.htm

I'm guessing with the water choke you're plumbing coolant lines to the choke and that's how the choke operates, off how hot the coolant is. The Holleys have an electric choke, so when you use the DFEV the factory connector for the choke plugs right into the Weber, nothing to mess with there.

From what Ive read you can just unbolt the water choke and bolt the electric choke in place. Something like 3 screws. So you can convert the water choke DFAV carb to an electric choke DFEV carb for almost nothing.

I've gotta do some more research but I think thats the way I'm gonna go

[ScottD]

That would be a good solution if it works. I see the electric choke is $20 from webercarbsdirect.

[strang3majik]

I honestly think in Florida you could get away without even having a choke. My dad's charger doesn't have one, and hasn't for the past 2 years, never had a problem.

The only thing is, when its cold...you just have to feather the throttle a little bit to keep it running.

Also, the car will run with the plug unplugged...however, it will not rev above 2500-3000RPM. At least my GLH will not. I think the feedback carb rejets itself at higher rpms and without being plugged in, it won't work.

But...what I was told about that car is that it ran great, but, the carb is shot and it needs a new/rebuilt one.
I would never put a feedback carb back on it, though, since, they didn't even run right brand new.

Also, does that car have an electric fuel pump with the carb?

My Omni does have the electric in tank pump with factory wiring going right to the fuse box with its own fuse...so, I know its stock, and its very odd. I don't know why a carbed car would have one...lol


Also...since Florida doesn't have emmisions inspection....

cat delete
smog pump delete
charcoal canister delete
feedback carb delete

I think thats about all the deleting there is to be done.

[ATaylorRacing]

I switched from the 5220 non feedback Holley to the 32/36 Weber on Matchbox. The jets in it were way too lean so I swapped in the massive ones from the bad carb. I am currently a tiny bit rich on the secondary side and will change that jet. I am running this on a 2.5 tall block! I understand that without the idle down solenoid on it you start at 20 degrees timing...I don't know about that, but I am NOT running a vacuum line to the computer at all because my car runs much more consistent ETs unhooked and on base timing alone. I could not get the stock linkage off my Holley and ended up making a small bolt on piece to accept the cable at the linkage. The car is not quicker or slower right now, but it might run a bit quicker when I lean out the secondary next weekend.

[ScottD]

I switched from the 5220 non feedback Holley to the 32/36 Weber on Matchbox. The jets in it were way too lean so I swapped in the massive ones from the bad carb. I am currently a tiny bit rich on the secondary side and will change that jet. I am running this on a 2.5 tall block! I understand that without the idle down solenoid on it you start at 20 degrees timing...I don't know about that, but I am NOT running a vacuum line to the computer at all because my car runs much more consistent ETs unhooked and on base timing alone. I could not get the stock linkage off my Holley and ended up making a small bolt on piece to accept the cable at the linkage. The car is not quicker or slower right now, but it might run a bit quicker when I lean out the secondary next weekend.

To get the Holley linkage arm off use a dremel and grind off that tab that holds it on.

On my car with the ported head, oversized MP valves, and 2.25 exhaust, I thought I might have to up the jets in size but the a/f ratio looks good. My car also has the stock exhaust manifold.

With Angelo running a 2.5 and I'm guessing he has a header on there along with other mods, bigger jets probably are necessary.

[85lebaront2]

Another carbed option is a 2.2L minivan carburetor. 49 state versions were non-feedback Holleys that are a drop-on. All it has are the idle solenoid and maybe the idle switch lead, no feedback solenoid in the carb.

[strang3majik]

Another carbed option is a 2.2L minivan carburetor. 49 state versions were non-feedback Holleys that are a drop-on. All it has are the idle solenoid and maybe the idle switch lead, no feedback solenoid in the carb.


really? So, I'm assuming they're a 5220? I'd like to just drop something on mine for now just to get it running right while I fab up parts.

[ATaylorRacing]

To get the Holley linkage arm off use a dremel and grind off that tab that holds it on.

On my car with the ported head, oversized MP valves, and 2.25 exhaust, I thought I might have to up the jets in size but the a/f ratio looks good. My car also has the stock exhaust manifold.

With Angelo running a 2.5 and I'm guessing he has a header on there along with other mods, bigger jets probably are necessary.

My 2.5 is stock and with stock roller cam. The intake is my old 84 original one (85 + flow better) and the exhaust header is the stock one that came on the 2.5.....that motor was put in after the car sat for 4 1/2 years, started it up and was heading out to the SDAC event at Topeka. Having a 2.5 instead of the 2.2 required 10 jetting changes on the way there (way too lean running on primary side) and two more jets at the track. From then until my stock carb bit the dust at the start of this year the jetting was changed a couple more times to make it run deadly consistant....last year it was within .01 from pass to pass. When I put on thje new Weber 32/36 it had a 137P and 140S jet. If I drove it at 70 the EGTs were going nuclear. I carefully drove it t0 the track at 60-65 and immediately put in a 300P and 347S. I put three passes on it within .08 seconds and the EGTs were still high, but not going to cause damage. I then put the 400P and 423S in from the old carb. The car is now a bit rich and runs withyin .04 seconds...next event I will go to a 400P and 417S. My car is dead on when the EGTs max temp is 1390. A note here...I have a Mopar Performance carb jetting kit, but my P jet is really for use as a S jet. Bigger jets came from VW powered 1.7 motors for a selection of secondary jets. They have HUGE S jets compared to even the Mopar kit!

[strang3majik]

what does said carbed 2.5 run in the quarter?

[1984rampage]

I switched from the 5220 non feedback Holley to the 32/36 Weber on Matchbox. The jets in it were way too lean so I swapped in the massive ones from the bad carb. I am currently a tiny bit rich on the secondary side and will change that jet. I am running this on a 2.5 tall block! I understand that without the idle down solenoid on it you start at 20 degrees timing...I don't know about that, but I am NOT running a vacuum line to the computer at all because my car runs much more consistent ETs unhooked and on base timing alone. I could not get the stock linkage off my Holley and ended up making a small bolt on piece to accept the cable at the linkage. The car is not quicker or slower right now, but it might run a bit quicker when I lean out the secondary next weekend.

Sounds awesome! What did it run in the 1/4 mile?

[ATaylorRacing]

Remember, motor is stock and shifted at 4750 rpm. I launch at 2400 with a 89 automatic from a turbo car. The old Matchbox runs 17.1s normally and broke into the 17.0s once this year. At Topeka this same set up was running 17.4s, but slightly dfferent jetting and heavier rims. My 1/4 mile calculation shows it has 84 hp at the tires. The car runs with no advanced timing from the computer....vacuum line plugged off. Back in 1990 at 100,000 miles is when I made the switch from a worn out 110 hp HO motor with close ratio 5 speed to a stock 2.2 with 84 hp and automatic. The ets slowed from high 13s to 18.8s!!! A Coan converter and FMVB got it to where it is today.

[ScottD]

I have the Direct Connection jet kit also but haven't had the need to dip into them yet.

[ShadowFromHell]

My non feedback on my rampage ran AWESOME after I rebuilt it.

[DC Turismo]

Btw dude, got your PM but ScottD already explained what you need to do. I sent him pics of my engine bay and that's how he did his. Def do it though because it runs so much better!

[TheCanadian007]

Btw dude, got your PM but ScottD already explained what you need to do. I sent him pics of my engine bay and that's how he did his. Def do it though because it runs so much better!

Do what? Elaborate?

[DC Turismo]

What vacuum/emissions lines you can eliminate.

[Dominic]

Can we get a pic posted of what said engine compartment looks like.....My old omni's body work is nearing completion and my energy will soon turn towards engine......Need some reference material.

Thanks.

[ScottD]

I have pics of what I did in the Project Log under the thread 85 Plymouth Turismo 2.2 high output.