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View Full Version : Tranny Swap has begun (518-360)



Subliminal
05-06-2010, 09:05 AM
So, as you may or may not know, I'm the proud owner of these:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_pjO6j2IMXk8/S9NhXQw2JDI/AAAAAAAAJBY/GkASf48197I/s800/IMG_6758.JPG

The blue truck is my lil baby, but about a month ago the 518 crapped out on me on my way to work. There were pieces of metal, lots of red fluid and a fun-filled ride home on a tow truck.

Well, I've never been a fan of the 518. I bought the truck because she's in beautiful shape, and you just don't find them like that in my part of the country.

So, when the tranny went, I did some calling around. The estimates to have it rebuilt were between $2500 and $5000, depending on performance mods converters, etc...

So, I started looking around for 360 conversion parts. I had a guy lined up in Wyoming to send me some stuff, but the cost of shipping alone was exceeding $500, and it just didn't seem feasible.

So, one day I decided to look in Craigslist and found the dually you see in that picture. There is a lot of rust on the body, but she ran and drove great...if a little rough on the ol' bumps. ;)

So, yesterday I started to tear into the dually to get the pieces I needed.

I pulled the driveshafts, which was an easy feat...feeling good!

The shifter came out with no issues...nice!

Then I went around the whole thing and made sure that all the wires, linkages, etc, were all unplugged. Done.

Then I got to the 4wd shifter. There were 2 cotter pins that I needed to pull. First one broke off and came out no problem...second one took me at least an hour. It was up in a place that was impossible to get to and it broke in such a way that it just would not punch/pull/push out.

Ok, problem solved, moving on.

Now, I have the FSMs for the truck, so I decided I'd look and see how the factory says the tranny should be pulled. The FSM said to pull the transfer case off, then pull the crossmember off, then support the motor and pull the tranny off using a transmission jack.

I borrowed my neighbors ATV jack, which is rated at 1500 lbs. I put it under the cross member, used some wood to build up a platform for the front of the tranny and decided to start on the crossmember bolts.

Right...those babies haven't been turned since the truck left the factory, I don't think...and to top it off, the bolts will turn from the top when you turn the easy-to-get-to nuts on the bottom. Dang.

So, I sprayed them with liquid wrench and smoked a cigarette.

I got my wrenches out and started on the 6 bolts per side.

One came out
Two came out
Three came out
Four came out
Five came out.

Now, that might seem like they went fast. They didn't. We're talking 45 minutes right here, and several bruised knuckles.

Then I got to #6 on the first side (pass side).

And, as you can probably guess, the head on the bolt stripped. Damn. I tried about 16 different combinations of wrenches/plyers/sockets/vice grips.

Then, I turned to my trusty friend the sawzall. But, of course when I cut through the bolt/nut, I didn't get ALL of the nut and it was still stuck.

Then I turned to my little buddy the peanut grinder...and about 5 minutes later and a quick reminder to wear eye protection and then a few minutes with a hammer and a chisel and that bolt is out.

So, I hit the other side with the penetrating oil once more and decided to call it a night.

I plan to use this thread as a log in my progress on the swap.

Vigo
05-06-2010, 11:37 AM
Im confused.. what is a 360? Some kind of manual that came with those back then? I know those cast iron transfer cases are really fun:thumb:

drunk on diesel
05-06-2010, 11:53 AM
Getrag model 360 5sp tranny.

You'll LOVE the 5sp coming from a 518... the factory converters in those trucks is just way too sloppy, and no lockup just makes them painful to drive.

I would have opted for a modded 47, but a manual tranny is a really visceral driving experience behind a 12v

turbodaytona87
05-06-2010, 12:01 PM
Tell me about it, I have a 727 in my '79 D150. Just going on the highway gets the RPMs up.

"Top Fuel" Bender
05-06-2010, 12:10 PM
so you looking to sell the the output shaft/tailshaft and coupler :eyebrows:
this will work with my trans. correct? '92 auto w/o.d. I think it's lock-up, anybody know how to identify properly?

Subliminal
05-06-2010, 01:10 PM
Bender, I
f you've a 92 auto then it's a 518 (what broke on me). Specifically, my tailshaft housing broke into pieces. My transfer case is currently sitting on the skid plate on the auto truck.

What exactly are you looking to do?

I've heard mixed reviews of the various 5 speeds.

The Getrag 360 is the stouter of the two, but suffers because the engineers didn't account for the angle it sits. However, overfilling by a quart is supposed to really help that out. The thing has a pilot bushing instead of a bearing. Those two things, from what I understand, are it's downfalls.

The newer trannies were implemented to save cost at the factory. They aren't nearly as stout. They're really just a slightly beefed up gasser tranny. They are supposed to shift a lot...smoother, though. But buying the conversion parts seemed silly to me, when I could just buy a whole truck with a working tranny. ;)

"Top Fuel" Bender
05-06-2010, 03:01 PM
Bender, I
f you've a 92 auto then it's a 518 (what broke on me). Specifically, my tailshaft housing broke into pieces. My transfer case is currently sitting on the skid plate on the auto truck.

What exactly are you looking to do?



I have a 2wd truck
I'm swapping the motor (my '92 cummins) into a 4x4 '78 f-250 ford truck
so I was going to use a divorced transfer case ( heard some have issue with drivetrain vibration at higher speeds)

but if i could get a tailshaft and output shaft, I could convert mine to a 4x4 case
the ford t-case is a left hand drop so I need to use my t-case but the ford has an female spline and the dodge is male spline, so I need the coupler and a dodge no205 transfer case input shaft (6-bolt round style)

Subliminal
05-06-2010, 03:14 PM
Honestly, that's about the most popular swap, and one I'd LOVE to do in the future. That era of Ford truck is by far my favorite.

There is a lot of good info on that type of swap.

I would think getting a donor like I did would be your best bet. You could swap running gear, tranny/transfer case....everything. I think you need to cut some off the top of the crossmember in the Ford, but other than that it's supposed to be an easy swap.

There's actually a company that sells parts for the swap. Fordcummins.com or something.

DTR has a full converstions forum, as well, with lots of knowledgable people.

Subliminal
05-06-2010, 03:17 PM
This is a great thread, actually:

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/cummins-conversions-shop-talk-tools-fabrication/34453-1969-ford-cummins-crew-cab.html

Vigo
05-06-2010, 10:14 PM
Working in a transmission shop at one point i got to drive a lot of those old 1st gen Cummins trucks. The autos were ALL dogs. I got to drive a SUPER nice (show-worthy) shortcab longbed 4wd 5spd (non intercooled) and it was pretty decent... once you got into 3rd gear. 1st was useless (when the truck is empty, anyway), 2nd was.. just ok.. 3rd you could load it up enough for the boost to do you some good.

I really liked that truck and thought about offering $6k for it at the time, but the owner didnt seem interested in selling.

I also just got done rebuilding an a500 today (little brother of 518). I dont LOVE those things but id be more comfortable owning one now because i can build it:thumb: But i think they are WAY more fun to drive by far as manuals and you'll enjoy your truck more when you're not worried about a stockish 518 blowing up! Good luck!

drunk on diesel
05-07-2010, 11:36 AM
once you drive one with a built automatic, the manual trannies REALLY lose their luster :o

Subliminal
05-23-2010, 06:38 PM
So, I had some success...

I spent the last few days working on and off on removing what I needed from my donor truck.

Basically, the removal process was like this:

Initially I borrowed this jack:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_pjO6j2IMXk8/S_mpoXgqoXI/AAAAAAAAJFo/nVXmxrPcFLs/s800/IMG_6778.JPG

It fit under there, but wasn't exactly the perfect tool for the job.

Then someone lent me this jobber:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_pjO6j2IMXk8/S_mpn1Pk24I/AAAAAAAAJFk/Vc3irdzxzLo/s800/IMG_6777.JPG

Still not perfect for the job, but a lot better. It's funny...it has those big bolts to even the load, should the bottom of the tranny be out of level. They go around the Getrag...it's just too small.

Anyway, I removed the transfer case skidplate/crossmember. That came off really nice.

I removed the driveshafts, which also came out nicey-nice.

I had a bit of a tough time with the shifter linkages for the 4wd, as they use cotter pins, are hard to get to and well, they just wouldn't cooperate.

At any rate, once the speedo sensor and a wire plug (I assume for reverse lights) was disconnected, and finally the shifter linkages were disconnected, I removed the 6 or so bolts that held the transfer case to the tranny.

A little while later:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_pjO6j2IMXk8/S_mpoj0gfgI/AAAAAAAAJFs/O6I9uLtKBzQ/s800/IMG_6779.JPG

One of the users here (and I believe a mod on one of the other forums) recommended this place for new seals:

http://www.makcotransmissionparts.com/NP205.html

So, I ordered new seals...as you can see from the picture, she's a bit leaky.

Anyway, I kept working until I had cut off 10 out of the 12 bolts holding the crossmember, then when I removed the crossmember, the big rubber bushings just kind of broke into pieces. Rockauto.com had those, though, so that will hopefully go together good.

So, I got the jack under the tranny, all secured nice, and unbolted it. Here I expected something magically to happen, and the whole thing to come apart.

It didn't. It actually shut me down for a day. I could not separate the tranny from the clutch housing.

So, the next day I got up with new motivation and started hammering, prying, swaying, bumping the hell out of everything...but no go.

So, I grabbed a bunch of flat head screwdrivers and started pounding them in here and there. Finally, I got a little crack, maybe 20 minutes later it just popped free. Score!

The clutch, flywheel, etc, were all easily removed.

So, about then it started raining so I cleaned up the tools and moved inside. The tranny was definitely grimy from leaking, so I started popping covers to reseal with black RTV.

I popped off the top...
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pjO6j2IMXk8/S_mpqT2HrcI/AAAAAAAAJGA/NFIWt1TTKAo/s800/IMG_6783.JPG

I wasn't really expecting all this stuff to be attached to it...but the forks look good to me...of course I don't really know crap, but...

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pjO6j2IMXk8/S_mpp6kNPTI/AAAAAAAAJF8/VkNrDMYJni8/s800/IMG_6782.JPG

The gears look good. You can see an edge worn down a little here and there, but I think it'll be fine...but again..what do I know? ;)

So, here's how I'm working:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_pjO6j2IMXk8/S_mpqso8RLI/AAAAAAAAJGE/YMxSNUTBoK8/s800/IMG_6784.JPG

The jack picked nice and high, but I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to get it up on the engine stand. Oh well, jack FTW.

Subliminal
05-23-2010, 06:39 PM
Anyway, here's my other pile of goods:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_pjO6j2IMXk8/S_mpqzCkkiI/AAAAAAAAJGI/CsAmyCmhfyU/s800/IMG_6785.JPG

Here's a close-up of the clutch. It seems in good shape, so I was kind of planning on using it.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pjO6j2IMXk8/S_mpr5_NKmI/AAAAAAAAJGU/9rEo5lLJP2k/s800/IMG_6788.JPG

Anyone more experienced than I who can tell me if they'd consider it pretty beefy or worn enough to demand replacement?

Moving on, I pulled this cover:
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_pjO6j2IMXk8/S_mpswyqtRI/AAAAAAAAJGg/F9zgtPU6_1A/s800/IMG_6791.JPG

I actually would like to replace that seal. Anyone know where to get it?

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pjO6j2IMXk8/S_mpsfyHK_I/AAAAAAAAJGc/R_Wu57pPLMc/s800/IMG_6790.JPG

...and that's how I left it. :)

Subliminal
05-24-2010, 05:02 PM
Got up this morning, went to work, then decided to take a half day and get back at it.

I ran to one town and dropped off my flywheel to get resurfaced.

I ran to another town to pick up the new clutch kit...OEM replacement $335. (It's apparently pretty tough to find the OEM sized 13" setup, as contrasted to the newer 12.25" setup...which is said to be much weaker at the high torque range the truck puts out).

Went back to the first town, grabbed my flywheel and came home and got to work on my 'keeper'. ;)

Got the transfer case out of there.

Started ripping lines/linkages off the automatic. Got the shifter linkages off, then started on the tranny cooler lines. Apparently on one side of the engine there is a cooler and on the other side is a heat exchanger. I had no idea what the heat exchanger was, so I left it alone and came to do some research.

Of course, before I did, I tried to drop the crossmember...started on one side with the impact gun and immediately removed 5 of the 6 nuts. Of course the 6th stripped immediately, and 20 minutes later I got it all cut off and decided to call it a night.

Man...lotta work this pulling apart 2 20 yr old trucks!

Subliminal
05-26-2010, 07:46 AM
I've come to a conclusion:

Pulling a manual out of the truck, no matter how rusty, is still easier than pulling a 518.

What a PITA! The coolant/heat exchange lines are messy, the linkages are crazy, everything is just a little harder to get to.

I stopped yesterday before actually unbolting the tranny from the engine. I assume I have to pull the bolts that hold the tc to the flywheel, then pull the bellhousing bolts. I had spilled so much fluid that I had to stop and clean up a bit...I was getting soaked (and I was even on a roller).

Oh well...getting close...once everything is out, I'm going to pop the new seals in the 205, clean the heck out of my truck and then start bolting it together. :)

86Shelby
05-26-2010, 09:56 AM
I assume I have to pull the bolts that hold the tc to the flywheel, then pull the bellhousing bolts.


That is correct. It helps also to take a screwdriver and push the tq back into the trans since they can stick a little to the flexplate over time.

Subliminal
05-26-2010, 10:10 AM
Nice! Thanks for the tip. ;)

Subliminal
05-28-2010, 11:47 AM
So, a few good ol' boys headed down from upstate NY this morning in a 96 Powerstroke with 400k miles and a gooseneck trailer and picked up the donor truck. They stuck around long enough to help me get the automatic out of my truck, so they could take that with them.

...and then there was one.

Subliminal
05-28-2010, 03:21 PM
Well, I'm not sure if I'll be able to get the truck back together...I figure I might as well do the rear main seal while the truck is apart...and of course nobody has one until next Tuesday.

Doh!

Subliminal
06-01-2010, 11:41 AM
Ok...made a little progress again today:

Rear Main Seal...replaced! Not too bad of a job...although I think removing everything from the flywheel back is the real tough part. ;)

Flywheel/Clutch/Pressure Plate/Housing installed!

The only real issue I ran into with the clutch install was that there are two dowels to align the bellhousing. Both of these dowels ended up in the same spot...one on the bellhouse and one on the engine. DOh! That was a fun little endevour to get them swapped around. ;)

But it's in!

Next step: Cut hole in floor for shifter, continue sealing transmission. Then I'll install the tranny, then it's time to get serious with the seal kit for the transfer case.

and the fun don't stop! ;)

Subliminal
06-03-2010, 10:12 AM
Well, I spent some more time yesterday on my project...on my favorite part: Under the dash. :(

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_pjO6j2IMXk8/S9NhPOuJsFI/AAAAAAAAJA4/JLgvfgoU6x4/s800/IMG_6766.JPG

If you look at the top right of that picture, where the aftermarket wires go through the big rubber grommet and into the cab...well, that's where the clutch cylinder goes. DOH! Of course, one of the wires is for my pyrometer and the instruction manual talks about not cutting those wires, and resistance changing the readings. So, I got a little creative...and this is how it turned out:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pjO6j2IMXk8/TAe2zbW5W-I/AAAAAAAAJH8/WpYvNE9PW9w/s800/Picture%20001.jpg

Basically, the clutch is mounted to the bracket you can see through that hole...so the firewall isn't really structurally necessary to the operation of the clutch. So, I broke out my drill, my dremel my tinsnips, my files, my electrical tape and my zipties and I notched the side out, put massive amounts of electrical tape around everything the wires/boost tube would touch, and moved them out of the way. I then bolted up the clutch bracket under the dash and called it a night...

Again, it just cracks me up how the little things in this project can take the longest time. I had all my acc. wires running through that hole. Underneath the dash I ran my aftermarket speaker wires through the bolt holes for that bracket, so those had to be moved, too.

At any rate, I should have the pedals mounted this evening, and after that it's just a matter of mounting the big stuff under the truck...well, I also need to seal the transfer case with the seal kit I bought... :)

ShadowFromHell
06-03-2010, 02:08 PM
So your putting a 4spd in that truck? Good luck going down the freeway. I have a 90 CTD with a 727 and its maxed out at about 80 mph with 3.07 gears.

Subliminal
06-03-2010, 02:18 PM
LOL.

Alrighty.

5 Speed, son...manual not automatic. Your 727 is just the non-OD 518...although I'd think you'd get better than 80 with 3.07s. That's pretty high gearing.

ShadowFromHell
06-03-2010, 04:18 PM
stock pump, no tach. It may go a little higher but I dont want to find out!

Subliminal
06-03-2010, 05:58 PM
These trucks are governed by fuel cutting out at a certain RPM. Stock is around 2800 rpm. You can keep your truck in neutral and hold the pedal down and it won't run much past that 2800 rpm. You can't hurt it by topping it out...just fyi.

Subliminal
06-08-2010, 06:38 PM
So, I took a half day today in hopes of finishing my project.

I:

Installed the pedals
Installed the clutch cylinder
Installed the transfer case
Installed the crossmember

Then I went to install the rear driveshaft.

The front went in nice (although in the pic I think she's a little too tight):
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_pjO6j2IMXk8/TA7EjEOZeKI/AAAAAAAAJIU/QhA8sjvLl60/s800/IMG_6794.JPG

Then I got to the back. :(

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_pjO6j2IMXk8/TA7Ekj5QVuI/AAAAAAAAJIY/aqoMhjOxxiU/s800/IMG_6795.JPG

Dang. My donor truck was a cab/chassis truck, but I thought I measured it the same. Guess I was off...about 2 inches. Grrr.

So, work on hold, off to the driveline shop tomorrow (hopefully).

glhs0426
06-08-2010, 09:04 PM
A little late to the party; looks good. You know Johnny makes those T-case bushings in poly

http://polybushings.com/pages/1604.html

http://polybushings.com/images/PB1604.jpg

BTW, you have a pm.

Subliminal
06-11-2010, 05:43 PM
Woo Woo!

I drove it around the block. Ran and shifted good!

Also, the first time I started it up after over 2 months, it started within the first revolution and ran like a top!

I still have some issues to iron out, mainly with wiring, but dang...feels good!

mcsvt
06-11-2010, 08:15 PM
Nice! :thumb:

onerippinturbo2
06-11-2010, 11:11 PM
congrats dude!!!! glad to hear it's up and running!!!

jory
06-12-2010, 12:21 AM
Good job! been watching this thread, 5 speed swaps are great I bet that diesel feels like a different machine. I would do that for sure if I bought an older truck that was auto (thought about it many times)

Muertoloco
06-12-2010, 09:48 PM
ooo.......i thought this thread was about something else....

Subliminal
06-15-2010, 08:12 AM
So, I called the good people over at Phoenix Friction products.

Actually, I emailed them this:


Hello!

I finally got my truck back together and it appears I have a serious balance issue with the product I purchased from you below.

I get a vibration in my driveline that was not there previous to installing this new clutch. The vibration is noticable at idle, but more noticable at a little higher rpm. The vibration happens with clutch in, clutch out, in gear while driving, and while in neutral revving the engine. It is also VERY noticable when downshifting.

I REALLY don't relish pulling the trans again, but I can't see a vibration such as this being good for the engine or transmission bearings.

I'm hoping you folks stand behind your products and/or maybe have an idea.

Thanks,

They called me back within an hour. The guy knew the history of the Sachs pressure plate and the contract going to Luk and the size change and blah blah blah.

Basically, his thoughts were that everything has tolerances...the pressure plate has a tolerance for how out of balance it can be, the flywheel has a tolerance and so forth. His guess is that I just ended up having all the bad spots lined up into one area...sort of a perfect storm.

His first recommendation was to take it apart, turn the pressure plate 180 degrees and try it again.

Silence on my end. Then a big sigh.

I think he felt my disdain and then said that if I pull the pressure plate and the flywheel, they'll throw it on their machine and check the balance for me, and fix what needs to be fixed, assuming it needs it.

Of course, the very thought of pulling that contraption apart again is NOT appealing in any way/shape/form.

Especially considering I just gave back the tranny jack I borrowed. Grrrr!

On the bright side, now that it's my second run at it it should take significantly less time than 2 months. ;)

glhs0426
06-20-2010, 04:55 PM
If you hurry the bolts won't sieze like they did the first time.