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View Full Version : 3.0 liter turbo upgrade......



madme89
05-01-2010, 07:29 PM
Hey
I'm in search on some info on turboing a 3.0 liter.

So my first question is there someone here who has done this before?
What do I need to know before I start?
I'm going to get the engine rebuilt before anything is bolted on....also going to get a another van to work on then swap the engine once all complete.
I would like to get at least 300hp or more if possible.

Budget of $5000

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m73/madme89/HDR002resize-1.jpg
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/321255

bakes
05-02-2010, 12:48 AM
Yes the 3.0l has been done by a couple of guys here its a good platform just really need a cal get a hold of Rob at boost button or Chris at turbo unleashed to get you on the right path to a cal
Brent would be the one to talk to on the motor i think he has done most of the R&D on the 3.0l
I going to start my 3.ol project in about a years time still collecting parts for the upgrade. and wait for a 3.ol cal for the sbec to made into a 2bar

Vigo
05-02-2010, 01:55 AM
The brent referred to is Ondonti here, search his username and PM him. He's a very pragmatic guy and he'll likely tell you that you wont need a fraction of that $5k to make 300hp, or tell you how to spend it all and make 500 hp instead.

Seen your van on cardomain before, very cool... and welcome to the forums!!

turbovanmanČ
05-02-2010, 03:05 AM
Welcome, I love your headlights and sent you emails on them years ago, you never got back to me, :mecry:

Either way, 300 hp on the 3.0L isn't that hard to do, the most expensive parts will be pistons and headers but I think someone still makes turbo headers, so that makes it easier. You might have to go megasquirt as I am not sure how close anyone is to a turbo 3.0L stock computer.

Vigo
05-03-2010, 10:52 AM
Brent made WAAAAAAY over 300hp on stock 10:1 pistons, which should be harder than doing it on stock 8.9:1 pistons or whatever it is that comes in the k-car 3.0s.

IMO you dont need to touch the shortblock AT ALL for 300hp.

turbovanmanČ
05-04-2010, 01:14 AM
Brent made WAAAAAAY over 300hp on stock 10:1 pistons, which should be harder than doing it on stock 8.9:1 pistons or whatever it is that comes in the k-car 3.0s.

IMO you dont need to touch the shortblock AT ALL for 300hp.

Yeah, but how long did it last, :eyebrows:

We can go over and over about forged vs cast pistons, we all know the pro's and con's, so the OP can decide, :p

turbo84voyager
05-04-2010, 04:47 PM
Welcome to the forum. You can probably get away with cast pistons, but a set of forged pistons in my opinion would be worth every penny considering you will be tuning this practically from scratch and there is always that chance of detonation. A wideband is also a must. If you have another good running engine, you can try setting it up on this engine and after you get it set up freshen up the engine. This way if you do break a piston or something setting it up, it is not on your fresh engine.

Vigo
05-04-2010, 05:06 PM
Actually, that motor lasted until he cracked the CRANK with some detonation. The pistons are still fine. The motor would run again with another crank and bearings. Bottom line is the 10:1 mitsu shortblock using ALL oem parts was and is as durable or more durable than the turbo 2.2/2.5s, and Brent STILL has way less ruined motors and way faster timeslips than you do :p

I think its ridiculous to tell someone they need pistons to make 300hp. That's 50hp a cylinder.. does anyone tell the turbo 2.2/2.5 guys they need pistons to make 200hp??:confused: Make sure you've got enough ring gap on your stock pistons (which can cause the death of even the factory turbo 2.2/2.5 pistons), and spend the money on a wideband and EGT instead. The stock pistons will last forever as long as you dont overheat them and/or detonate.

No hard feelings Simon, i respect your accomplishments, im just calling out what i see as some double standards regarding advice 4cyl vs 6cyl.

turbovanmanČ
05-04-2010, 06:09 PM
Actually, that motor lasted until he cracked the CRANK with some detonation. The pistons are still fine. The motor would run again with another crank and bearings. Bottom line is the 10:1 mitsu shortblock using ALL oem parts was and is as durable or more durable than the turbo 2.2/2.5s, and Brent STILL has way less ruined motors and way faster timeslips than you do :p

I think its ridiculous to tell someone they need pistons to make 300hp. That's 50hp a cylinder.. does anyone tell the turbo 2.2/2.5 guys they need pistons to make 200hp??:confused: Make sure you've got enough ring gap on your stock pistons (which can cause the death of even the factory turbo 2.2/2.5 pistons), and spend the money on a wideband and EGT instead. The stock pistons will last forever as long as you dont overheat them and/or detonate.

No hard feelings Simon, i respect your accomplishments, im just calling out what i see as some double standards regarding advice 4cyl vs 6cyl.

No hard feelings.

No one is telling him WHAT pistons to run, as you know, we always recommend forged but its the owners choice.

Brent is way ahead of me in carnage, :thumb:

As for faster, he is, but then again, if I put my engine in a light car, I'd be running 11's too.

I respect Brent, he's done alot for the 3.0L, I've hit my goal of a 12 sec van, fully loaded with functional A/C. Now I am upping to the bar to mid or low 11's, :nod:

Vigo
05-04-2010, 07:05 PM
Hmmm.. i can only think of two motors brent has had in the duster that have broken in any way.. most of his problems have been either head sealing or caused by fuel system problems (i.e. not weak motor).

I need to start working on my darn caravan already...

Ondonti
05-04-2010, 11:02 PM
10:1 motor crankshaft is nice and bent.

The real issue with either motor is that they were seeing 38 degrees total timing at 400 and 500+ hp levels. That amount of timing does not make more power and just leads to detonation.

With timing control I won't have the issue bad ignition timing. Both broken motors were really intended to break and see when they break under what abuse. I still have my forged piston shortblock with cast crank that did 500/500+ on the dyno at 20 pounds boost and ran 25 pounds on the street. It just has a chip on a piston that needs to be ground off from a broken spark plug porcelain.

Anyone who thought my 11.54@125 stock 8.9:1 motor with stock ringgaps and 38 degrees timing (stock n/a timing) would hold together has stepped out of reality. Now, drop 10-15 degrees of timing off and it might have been fine. It was fine on the street. It was only on slicks at the track that it got pissed off, probably from a lack of wheelspin. Also, that motor did lean out. E70 fuel required a bit more flow then I could provide at the time on my old fuel setup. Single hotwired in tank walbro pushing E70 fuel (requiring about 25% more flow) AND running 100+ psi fuel pressure from the rising rate regulator, I don't know how I ever managed to get enough fuel during my tuning runs to get good AFR numbers. Also, Ethanol does NOT provide good octane when it leans out like race gas. There is no safety factor when you run lean on ethanol that is also mixed with 30% 85 octane gas.


With megasquirt, the motor should hang around all day long if you regap the rings. 300hp on pump gas is not a problem even if you don't regap. In the past others had issues with ringlands and its all down to poor tolerances on factory ring gaps (aka, one of your pistons might have a tiny ring gap). But all these motors I know of all detonated.

I am only online at the moment to try to get rid of some AWD parts I don't need (rear and axles) and I probably won't be foruming for another month.

Buy engine management and get it to run your n/a 3.0. If you can do that, then build the turbo setup :amen:
I've gone about doing things a bunch of different ways. Already had a forged piston motor and went to stock motors to play with them. When you drive a car a few times a year you sorta don't care about breaking it, especially when you enjoy working on it. Most people don't want to fix things so the key is to not push beyond somethings reasonable limits, especially with fuel system and spark advance.

I have the fuel system to make over 650whp on E70 fuel without upgrading my small 47# injectors. A 3.0 is definitly going to be on borrowed time up there. When you make huge amounts of power, even trace detonation can kill a motor. Ive learned quite a bit from the 3000gt guys and thats what they always see. 500whp TT 3000gt's can last for a decade, even with moderate detonation on a near constant basis. 875+hp forged crank motors don't want to see detonation even once.


The stock rods are going to be on borrowed time over 650ft/lb torque at the front wheels. So will the cast crank.
When it comes to pistons, avoid detonation and They will probably last quite awhile with big ringgaps.

The FWD 3000gt record on a bone stock 24v head stock rods and stock 10:1 pistons motor is 140mph in a 3200-3300# raceweight car with no tune and c16 fuel. That was chris hill's car and he used to bend rods or blow ringlands on a regular basis. He has since become a well recognized AEM tuner at a shop and has made over 1000hp at 4 wheels on a stock displacement 3.0 and stock forged crank. Ask him yourself and with his current knowledge and skills and a good engine management system, he could run 600whp all day long on a stock rod and 10:1 piston motor.

pushing beyond there just becomes a fatigue problem for the rods with all that torque.

Sgt Craig
05-07-2010, 08:09 PM
Found this on local craigslist.Anyone here? http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/pts/1728718677.html

Vigo
05-07-2010, 08:22 PM
That's a piece made by Ed Kelly, i believe.

http://www.kmperformance.com/index2.html

I believe Brent's 500+whp 3.0 setup used something identical or very similar along with a rear log manifold made by Ed Kelly...

shadowdude
05-07-2010, 09:16 PM
I will be the tech guide for madme89 ,local friends and all, so i will pipe in with some curiosity.Wondering where does one get a engine management system to run it reliably ? He will be driving this on a summer day to day basis so it has to be a reliable set up ,well 95% that is LOL.I was wondering ,are most parts readily available for this build ? Just curious to know lads.Thanks.

Vigo
05-07-2010, 11:45 PM
I dont know about MOST parts, but the HARD parts (to build) are readily available in the form of turbo manifolds..

Ed Kelly (of KM Performance, the link i posted) builds two setups for mounting turbos.. one in which the turbo is mounted on the crossover pipe (which requires turning the plenum around, putting spacers under the plenum, messing with throttle/cruise cables, etc), and one in which the turbo is mounted over the rear valve cover, which requires fewer changes to other things on the motor.

Both of those are off-the-shelf pieces. Either way you're going to need to come up with your own oil plumbing, downpipe, charge pipes, and other minor fabrication projects.

As far as engine management, it has been done different ways. Ed has used an E-Manage Blue on his car with success. Megasquirt can also be used on this motor. Brent made his big power numbers on a rising-rate fuel pressure regulator and stock electronics. Or, for the ultimate in simplicity.. im fairly certain our own Rob Lloyd (BoostButton.com) could come up with a calibration for the factory engine controls that would run the turbo setup.:thumb:

There are no 'kits', really, but it has been done repeatedly and with great success.. so do it :thumb:

turbovanmanČ
05-08-2010, 12:24 AM
I would throw some money at Rob aka Shelgame to make a cal, he's busy but cash will alter that, I would assume, ;)

shadowdude
05-08-2010, 01:51 PM
Ok ,good info .Like i say i am helping him understand the finer tech details.He know cars but not a die hard turbo gear head like a lot here.LOL..some time i think it is better that way give it to some on else to frig with:D .anyways yea so he has got a donor 3.0 V6 95 caravan today so that motor will be the build and when we get a solid "game plan" going he can get the build started.I just wanted to be sure this can be done without a lot of hassle per say.If the parts for a good bottom end and engine electronics to run it all decent can be had easy ,then he should be good to go.:thumb:

turbovanmanČ
05-08-2010, 02:00 PM
The whole job is relatively simple, thanks to alot of diehards over the years. The worst part is the electronics, but an older van isn't so bad than a 2nd gen where the body control etc are all integrated.

If my van ever goes, I'll either turbo a 4 banger 2nd gen or turbo a 3.0L, :thumb:

ShelGame
05-08-2010, 03:40 PM
I would throw some money at Rob aka Shelgame to make a cal, he's busy but cash will alter that, I would assume, ;)

I've been looking at computers lately, and I think it's maybe easier than I originally thought. Still a bit of work to tune it, but I bet we could get close.

shadowdude
05-08-2010, 05:41 PM
Sweet ShelGame ,thats a good thing indeed.I am willing to bet he will be talking to you soon enough if thats the case.Build will be at this point ,a stock motor with only needed bottom end parts to handle the HP increase and boost,a ported intake ,larger TB and exhaust and a cold air .So if he could get a tune for that would be the good thing .

ShelGame
05-08-2010, 06:22 PM
It will be kind of a race-only type setup. I wouldn't have any of the emissions controls setup (EGR, Purge, etc.). The rest should be pretty straight forward. I'd start looking at it tonight, but I have another job to do first...

shadowdude
05-08-2010, 06:42 PM
Absolutely , i will let him give the word when he is ready.I would Imagen he will pop up on here soon.It is a matter of when not if , so i will leave the when up to him and you.:D.