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show-off
06-02-2006, 10:04 AM
I have a Cliff R 520/555 w/ OBX in it. It has 150-200 miles on it...here is what happened.

I was driving down I-77 in 5th and heard a big clank or pop sound. I thought maybe I hit something or lost something on the car so I pull over. I get out and everything seems okay until I try to get the car to move. It doesn't go into gear. I go check on the clutch cable and it is still there and good. The clutch engages and disengages. I was able to get it into 1st after messing with it, but it wouldn't shift to 2nd or 3rd. Just was grinding real bad. Then I pulled back over. I was just going to trailer it back home, but at the last minute thought I would give it one more shot. I got it into 4th and was able to drive the car 40 miles back home in 4th gear:eyebrows: I have to admit I ran a red light & a stop sign though:nod:

Anybody got any idea what might be up? The car would go in reverse and drive, and would go into 5th easily too. 1-4 gears were a pain and I never tried to push my luck and shift while in 4th.

Frank
06-02-2006, 10:09 AM
The most I could say is call him. Even if it ends up being something that could be fixed, I wouldnt try. I wouldnt know what would lock out all those gears like that. Dang dude.


Frank

MiniMopar
06-05-2006, 01:25 PM
Almost sounds like one of the shift fork pins fell out, but having 1st and 4th work is kind of weird. I imagine that you were in 5th when noise happened? It could still be something with the pressure plate, causing the clutch not to fully disengage.

BadAssPerformance
06-05-2006, 01:27 PM
A week before the mopar nats last ear I had the Z at the grove for a couple shake down runs. After my best pass (and only one I stuck all 4 gears) of the night (11.80 something) it would not shift into 2 or 3 on the return road, only 4th or 1st. Luckily 1st was working so i didnt have to use the winch to trailer it too.

Took the gears out the side and saw that the split spacer between 2 and 3 was out and the snap ring that held it on was all sortsa twisted up. Put some spare parts in it and it lived through the rest of the season but it still needs to come out cuz its still junk, lol...

MiniMopar
06-05-2006, 01:50 PM
Ahh..good point. I forgot about that story. Yeah, that would definately explain it, because the gears are being pushed away from the slider. The snap ring is supposed to be on there so that the split in the washer is 90 degrees to the opening in the snap ring.

BadAssPerformance
06-05-2006, 01:54 PM
I'll see if I have pics of it in the archives tonight.

show-off
06-05-2006, 02:44 PM
I was only able to "JAM" it into those gears. The clutch would engage and disengage. I was able to force it into 4th with the car off...then start the car with the clutch in and keep slipping/working the clutch to get it moving.

It had metal flakes in the tranny fluid...so it is going back to cliff.

tryingbe
06-06-2006, 06:03 PM
Metal in fluid?

That's how my old tranny look like when it had metal in fluid.
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=22755

BadAssPerformance
06-06-2006, 06:34 PM
the metal is probably from the jamming gears ou had to do to get it home... let us know what Cliff says :thumb:

show-off
06-19-2006, 02:36 PM
Here is what "the man" (Cliff R.) said:

Got the transmission today. I don't think much of the GM fluid and now know why I tell people to use either motor oil or Redline MTL.

3rd gear seized to the shaft and then broke the syncro ring, that was the metal in the fluid. Spun the roll pin off the main shaft that retains 2nd gear. Cant get 2nd off either so a trip to the machine shop is needed to try and press the damaged mess off.

So, Shaft is bad, 2nd, and 3rd are bad, shift fork and shaft are bad, that's why it wouldn't shift.

I need to find two more core transmissions to repair this so it might take a week or so.

Frank
06-19-2006, 02:46 PM
Ouch!!!!

Bardo
06-19-2006, 03:18 PM
whats he going to charge you for th fix?

show-off
06-19-2006, 03:40 PM
He hasn't said anything to me...it had 250 miles and was professionally installed by my dodge mechanic (friend) who has 2 GLHS. So I know we did it right. GM synchromesh is supposed to be really good stuff too. Makes no sense for it to fail b/c of that tranny fluid.

BadAssPerformance
06-19-2006, 04:52 PM
Double ouch!

+1 to the MTL :thumb:

iTurbo
06-19-2006, 05:03 PM
Damn, I was thinking about running the Synchromesh in the A568 hybrid I will soon be getting back from Cliff. I will stick with the tried and true 5-30 motor oil. The synchromesh is very expensive anyway.

Bardo
06-19-2006, 05:13 PM
i used redline 5-30 in my 555. loved it

turbovanmanČ
07-08-2006, 02:45 AM
I severly doubt the Synchromesh caused it, thats laughable. Sorry, no disrespect but thats just BS. I guess all the Turbo Sunbirds, HO Grand Am's, 5.0L Mustangs, IROC Camaro's etc that run that fluid are all have blown trannies, I think not.

Frank
07-08-2006, 08:30 AM
I severly doubt the Synchromesh caused it, thats laughable. Sorry, no disrespect but thats just BS. I guess all the Turbo Sunbirds, HO Grand Am's, 5.0L Mustangs, IROC Camaro's etc that run that fluid are all have blown trannies, I think not.

Its not laughable... Different trannies require different things because they are constructed out of different materials and differet tolerances. I remember Cliff making comments 2 years ago about how it could dick up your tranny bad.


Frank

GLHSKEN
07-08-2006, 09:30 AM
^^^^ +1... When Cliff says something about these trannies, I tend to believe it. You should feel my Cliff R A413 shift.... Fully automatic race built. At low boost, it's seemless

Clay
07-08-2006, 11:00 AM
When I got my 520/555 hybrid from Cliff it came with a tag that said to use regular old oil........ so thats what I did. So far its been great!

clay

turbovanmanČ
07-08-2006, 11:25 AM
Its not laughable... Different trannies require different things because they are constructed out of different materials and differet tolerances. I remember Cliff making comments 2 years ago about how it could dick up your tranny bad.


Frank

Sorry, don't believe it. I am allowed my opinion and have been around long enough to know that I doubt it caused the failure. Sycromesh fluid is a million times better than Dexron and Dexron used to be factory fill. You don't see any failures like that caused by Dexron? Bearings are bearings, there all the same, etc. Flame me all you want, I stand on my opinion.

TurboGLH
07-08-2006, 11:53 AM
I guess that I'll chime in here. The damage that occured was caused by lack of lubrication, plain and simple. At least second and third (maybe 1st, we can't get to it) welded themselves to the mainshaft, breaking the stop ring on third, breaking the thrust washer between 2nd and 3rd and polluting the fluid to the point that pieces of brass jammed the 3/4 shift fork on the shift rail. When third froze it destroyed the surface of the shaft as well as the gear. The broken thrust washer also damaged the surfaces of 2nd and 3rd to the point that third will start to pull off the shaft but stops after about 3/4" and second won't move at all. The fluid was dispersed throughout the case well enough (as well as the brass remains) that it is very unlikely the trans was run dry. Regardless of it's use in other applications, as well as it's performance vs ATF III, synchromesh is not on our list of recomended fluids. Feel free to draw whatever conclusions you like, but without the hard evidence in front of you (ie. The trans) it's pure conjecture and nothing more.

turbovanmanČ
07-08-2006, 12:15 PM
Thanks for chiming in Chris, :thumb:

Clay
07-08-2006, 01:15 PM
Bearings are bearings, there all the same, etc.

not true

8valves
07-08-2006, 05:38 PM
I will admit that I run synchromesh in my Cliff R tranny. A couple thousand in and third grinds slightly. :( Time to swap it out I guess.

AM

turbovanmanČ
07-08-2006, 05:53 PM
not true


Yes, it is actually. The bearings for our trannies are all made my one company, Timken. Then repackaged and sold under numerous brand names, IE Dodge, CR, National, SKF etc. There are probably a few other bearing makes but Timken is the major one.

BadAssPerformance
07-09-2006, 09:45 AM
Yes, it is actually. The bearings for our trannies are all made my one company, Timken. Then repackaged and sold under numerous brand names, IE Dodge, CR, National, SKF etc. There are probably a few other bearing makes but Timken is the major one.

Pretty sure SKF makes their own...

Frank
07-09-2006, 10:00 AM
Yes, it is actually. The bearings for our trannies are all made my one company, Timken. Then repackaged and sold under numerous brand names, IE Dodge, CR, National, SKF etc. There are probably a few other bearing makes but Timken is the major one.

What he meant was that bearings vary from Dodge, Ford, GM, etc.

Someone brought this up before, but are there even bearings between the shaft and the gears?


Frank

Clay
07-09-2006, 10:04 AM
Pretty sure SKF makes their own...

yup, and so does dodge. Not sure about CR or national.

BadAssPerformance
07-09-2006, 10:06 AM
What he meant was that bearings vary from Dodge, Ford, GM, etc.

Someone brought this up before, but are there even bearings between the shaft and the gears?


Frank

nope, not between the shaft and gears... only on the ends of the shafts. And the mainshaft pinion end itself rides in a roller bearing in the case without an actual bearing pressed on it...

DodgeZ
07-09-2006, 12:58 PM
So Simon if it wasn't the fluid what was it?

Frank
07-09-2006, 01:24 PM
nope, not between the shaft and gears... only on the ends of the shafts. And the mainshaft pinion end itself rides in a roller bearing in the case without an actual bearing pressed on it...

So we arent dealing with bearings in this case... so really a good study in oil properties and lubercation is key. but it sounds like Chris/Cliff say that if you run GM in their trannies your warrenty is voided.... so for all future tranny people... dont run it.... plain and simple and you wont be hurting.


Frank

turbovanmanČ
07-09-2006, 03:17 PM
Cliff and tranny builders have every right to tell you what to run and what not to run. This is the only case I have every heard of GM fluid causing a failure. I am not going to jump around and jump on the bandwagon. There are millions of trannies running around with GM fluid. I may be stubborn yes, but like I said, one tranny isn't proof of anything. I have also used this fluid in many a high HP tranny, even more than our TD's and have yet to see a failure. GM fluid is DESIGNED for standard transmissions!!!!! and I believe its partially synthetic also. One more thing, its factory fill in some truck transmissions also.



So Simon if it wasn't the fluid what was it?

Honestly don't know, could have been a fluke part failure, assembly error and see above statement.

MiniMopar
07-09-2006, 09:03 PM
It could be that some debris got into the oil passage in the main shaft, fell into an oiling hole on one of the gears and tore it up from the inside. The resulting debris got into the oil holes for the other gears and tore them up too. I've always flushed the mainshaft out in the parts washer and some interesting things have come out.

BadAssPerformance
07-10-2006, 12:41 AM
I think Russ has a good idea there... damn, and I forgot to do that with the trans I just put back together for the shadow. :(

also, the GM fluid thing reminded me about a few days ago my buddy was looking for some vacuum leaks in his LS-1 transplant into his '87 RX-7 and I gave hime a can of Mopar Throttle Body cleaner... told him the 'mopar spray' should fix exerything and that he should spray it over the whole motor, lol...