Clutch won't fully disengage

[turboz523]

Just got done swapping a 568 into my 89 daytona c/s. At the same time I installed a new TU competition lightweight steel flywheel, and a slightly used centerforce dual-friction clutch. The problem I'm having now is that the clutch won't fully disengage. If you start the car in neutral, its impossible it get it into any gear, if you start the car in gear, it will run ok, but it wants to creep forward or backward, however the clutch grabs normally at about 1/2 way up on the pedal travel. I took it out in 2nd gear and pushed the clutch in and out over and over to see if it would free up and it didn't get better at all. While moving you can get to shift gears but you pretty much have to force it, and first is out of the question. Any ideas? The clutch was used in an iroc r/t that went low 13's with no issue, the trans. was out of my old daytona and it didn't have any issues either, the only thing I haven't used before is the TU lightweight flywheel.

[rbryant]

I have heard of this problem with the 2.4l with the 568. If you are running a stock 2.2/2.5 then it is probably your clutch cable being stretched or not adjusted. Have you checked it?



The issue is that when connected to the 2.4l engine the flywheel sticks out farther than it does on the 2.2/2.5. Because of this the throw out bearing is pushed farther back onto the input shaft.

If you look at the timing window you can see that the timing mark is barely visible....

The throw out bearing can then actually contact the input shaft retainer (whatever it is called) and not allow it to fully disengage.

The solution is to pull the tranny and remove some material from the input shaft retainer so that it allows the TO bearing to move back farther and disengages from the clutch.

I guess I will have to pull my tranny an proactively do this before I fire the car up just to be on the safe side. :(

Are you running a dust sheild?

Perhaps I should make some thicker dust sheilds to push the transmission back a little and eliminate this problem... The current ones I made were only .060" if they were .125" it might make a difference... The only worry I have about that is that it would change the engine centering and axle lengths by affectively making the engine/tranny combo wider. 1/8" probably wouldn't really affect that though and might solve the problem.

Or we could machine the flywheels a bit extra to be thinner when using the 568 2.4l combo (or both).

-Rich

[turboz523]

Well I'm still not sure, I guess I'm going to have to pull the trans. back out. tonight I tried jacking the clutch arm all the way up, put it in 1st w/ the wheels off the ground and started it, wheels start spinning. I also tried disconnecting the shifter cables and putting it in first to make sure there was nothing wrong there, no change. So now I guess I'll pull the trans. back out and see what I can see. Any more ideas?

[rbryant]

Well I'm still not sure, I guess I'm going to have to pull the trans. back out. tonight I tried jacking the clutch arm all the way up, put it in 1st w/ the wheels off the ground and started it, wheels start spinning. I also tried disconnecting the shifter cables and putting it in first to make sure there was nothing wrong there, no change. So now I guess I'll pull the trans. back out and see what I can see. Any more ideas?

Did you mix and match the cable lever with another transmission?

I think they actually changed where they were keyed at one point. If that is the case then it might not be able to turn TOB fork enough.

-Rich

[blueshelbydaytona91]

my dad has a saturn and his car did the same and he took it to the shop and the said 1 of the sprigs on the clutch broke just happened last week so still didn't get it fixed.

[TFmech]

If you are sure the cable is fully adjusted with the tensioner on the back of the pedal.....to make sure pull back on the petal and let it set back aginst the adjuster....then take a mirror and flash light and see where the foot is hitting the adjuster. If it is not on the teeth of th adjuster you will need to move the holes on the mount for the clutch cable out on the the fender well.....I had to do this to a couple cars with modified clutches and flywheels. Once you are sure the clutch cable is functioning as it should be and adjusted properly then the next check.

Now jack up the car with both wheels off of the ground if you have an open diff or a quife, obx....you will need a buddy for this next step. Put the car in gear get you a prying tool and actuate the arm on the trans with the pry bar then spin the tires as you do this to see when the clutch dissengages. If it dosent disengage then you need to take the tranny out for the next check. If it does disengage then you need to figure out how to get more throw on your clutch arm extend the arm or what ever......I would be hard pressed to think that this is the case.

Now with the tranny out and the clutch disk out of the car take the clutch disk and stick it on the splines of the input shaft and make sure that is slides freely it almost needs to be loose if it does not you will need to use a knife sharpening stone, as the input shaft is hard as a rock, sand the splines till they dont have any burrs and you can slide the disk on freely. I have seen this happen using used clutches on diffrent transmissions. Now once you have done this take a good look at the pressure plate and make sure everything looks good....you are looking for bent arms, there should be three straps that keep the pressure ring from rotating if any of these are bent or do not look the same the plate either needs to be repaired or thrown away.

If you still cant find anything wrong take the flywheel out of the car and bolt the clutch to it just as you would be bolting it in the car take the whole setup and throw out bearing down to your local trans shop as the will have a arbor press and get them to stick it in the arbor press and run it just as if it was in the car this will let you see if the thing is realeasing corectly or if it is realeasing only one side or what ever if this is the case more then likely the spring in the plate is broke and either needs to be replaced by a clutch shop or usually if this happens everything is just worn out in the pressure plate and it is not worth having fixed and just needs to be replaced.

Hope this help.

[t3rse]

If he jacked the clutch arm all the way up then it is something to do with the clutch/pp/flywheel.

As Rich was saying: I had this issue on a 2.4/568 hybrid and the result was that the TOB guide which dual functions as the input shaft seal retainer was physically touching the clutch hub and pressing the clutch into the flywheel just enough to not let it disengage even with the PP fully disengaged. I ground a tiny bit off the end of the piece and problem solved. The centerforce clutch could have a thicker than normal hub and be binding on this sleeve. The reason I think this is the case is because with the old flywheel you didn't have this issue because it had either been worn down or turned down enough to clear, whereas the new flywheel has not and is therefore slightly thicker causing this clearance issue. Before you take it all apart loosen the trans to block bolts a few turns, stick the car in gear, and see if you can push the car a foot or so with the clutch disengaged (read pedal on the floor). If you can have the flywheel turned or remove some material from the sleeve.

A spring breaking on the floating hub would not lock it down unless the spring managed to work out of the retainer and get stuck between the clutch and a friction surface.

[turboz523]

thats all good advice, I'll try to follow these suggestions this week when I get a chance

[rbryant]

thats all good advice, I'll try to follow these suggestions this week when I get a chance

Also try to take the arm off and see if the shaft will turn farther than the arm allows. If it does remove the key in the arm and move it back a notch or two.

I wonder if you could have put the TOB fork in off a notch or two... It seems like it is also keyed but I can't remember for sure.

Have you used this transmission in the past? Did you take the TOB fork out or the clutch lever off at any point?

Are you using the correct TOB for the TOB forks? There was a change over in '90 or so to use a different TOB (it is held on the fork differently and not as well as the older design). I once used an older style TOB fork on a newer transmission by grinding it down a little where it would normally hit the case. I actually liked that setup.

-Rich

[turboz523]

I used this transmission in an 85 daytona w/ an 89 t2 motor, when I put it in this car, I used the centerforce clutch and flywheel, and the throwout bearing that had been used with the centerforce. I'll be pulling it out this week, and should be reinstalling this coming sat. with a TU purple plate and 6puck, I decided to go brand new, and I'm sure its overkill for my combo, but I don't wanna hafta pull the trans. out again for a long time after this.

[Ondonti]

If he jacked the clutch arm all the way up then it is something to do with the clutch/pp/flywheel.

As Rich was saying: I had this issue on a 2.4/568 hybrid and the result was that the TOB guide which dual functions as the input shaft seal retainer was physically touching the clutch hub and pressing the clutch into the flywheel just enough to not let it disengage even with the PP fully disengaged. I ground a tiny bit off the end of the piece and problem solved. The centerforce clutch could have a thicker than normal hub and be binding on this sleeve. The reason I think this is the case is because with the old flywheel you didn't have this issue because it had either been worn down or turned down enough to clear, whereas the new flywheel has not and is therefore slightly thicker causing this clearance issue. Before you take it all apart loosen the trans to block bolts a few turns, stick the car in gear, and see if you can push the car a foot or so with the clutch disengaged (read pedal on the floor). If you can have the flywheel turned or remove some material from the sleeve.

A spring breaking on the floating hub would not lock it down unless the spring managed to work out of the retainer and get stuck between the clutch and a friction surface.

+1.

If jacking the arm up did work, then simply adding some washers to the spot where the cable goes through the trans above the arm solves the issue.

But it seems that his clutch is not disconnecting regardless of arm position. Was the arm up as far as it would go when being jacked? You don't want to damage anything but maybe you didnt manage to lift it any higher then the cable is lifting it. I would watch while someone actuates the pedal, then make sure you jack it up an half an inch or more higher then what the pedal accomplished.
confirm this before doing the annoying work of removing the trans.

[turboz523]

yeah I got it jacked up at least an inch higher w/ the jack and no change, it didn't make a difference.

[Pat]

I used this transmission in an 85 daytona w/ an 89 t2 motor, when I put it in this car, I used the centerforce clutch and flywheel, and the throwout bearing that had been used with the centerforce. I'll be pulling it out this week, and should be reinstalling this coming sat. with a TU purple plate and 6puck, I decided to go brand new, and I'm sure its overkill for my combo, but I don't wanna hafta pull the trans. out again for a long time after this.

I'm sorry that the clutch didn't work out...check your PM's.

[shelbymopar89]

What flywheel bolts did you use? When I put ARP flywheel bolts in mine the heads of the bolts were too long and hitting the springs on the clutch disk. It was causing the same problem as you describe. It will be very easy to see when you pull it apart. I took a grinder and adjusted the heads of the bolts and kept testfitting the clutch disk untill it cleared. I think reaper1 has a old thread on here with pics of the same issue. Good luck!

[turboz523]

stock flywheel bolts, I'm gonna start pulling apart today, depending on how busy we get at work, I"ll post what I find.

[turboz523]

got the centerforce clutch out, inspected everything and I'm not exactly sure what all was going on. This clutch was used so I'm not sure what marks were there and what weren't, but I see marks in 2 places that could have caused an issue. The "weights" on the pressure plate look like they could have been hitting the springs on the clutch disk. The center hub on the clutch disk looks like it could have been hitting on the t.o.bearing guide. I installed the new TU purple plate+6puck clutch+t.o. bearing, got everything buttoned up and.....it shifts like it supposed to, so it had to be something with the centerforce, just not exactly sure what.

[TFmech]

No one really said it in this thread but the dual friction clutch is not a great clutch in our cars anyway.....weight system really doesnt work that great for a turbo 4 cylinder setup. You will be better off with the 6 puck.

[jory]

I had this same exact problem with my Daytona. The pressure plate turned out to be bad. Swap it out with a new or known good one. I bet that will solve your problem, it did for me.