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1FastCSX289
02-28-2010, 02:17 PM
Those of you guys running a distributor with stock electronics......what did you do about fuel, timing and knock curves? What source was used to base your curves upon? I've been talking to some of the guys on the forum via PM (RBryant, Shelgame) and they have some good ideas on basing the fuel curve on known masi/lotus head engines and knock curve on the neon 2.0. Any other ideas? What about timing curve? Anyone have a link to the where I could find stock SRT4 timing?

1FastCSX289
02-28-2010, 02:59 PM
Heres a link to an AEM table for timing......this is not stock timing though. So if anyone has an idea of where I could find stock timing, that would be kewl. :)

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f298/srt-stock-spark-maps-392549/

BadAssPerformance
02-28-2010, 03:23 PM
Damn, I thought I had that for ya but cannot find it :( But IIR it looked milar to that. Waaaaay more timing than I run ;)

CNH320
02-28-2010, 03:57 PM
I know you said Stock tables but you may want to take a look at the stage 3 map as both were calibrated for 93 octane but the stage 3 has more evenly distributed breakpoints in the upper MAP & RPM range and it was for a 3-bar MAP. The stock 2.4L turbo spark map was layed out for a 2.5 bar MAP and has breakpoints biased in the lower MAP ranges for more fine resolution for emissions etc...

See post #5 in this thread:

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f341/iso-few-stg-3-tables-538570/

I know the stock map was posted in the SRT SCT Wiki at one point but the site appears to be down as i can't get to it now.

Aries_Turbo
02-28-2010, 04:20 PM
Sean, i have a spreadsheet that can help translate the SRT values into the AdvanceFromMapWarmPart and AdvanceFromMapWarmFull and AdvanceFromRPM2 tables that the SBEC uses.

as far as fuel, i can set that up pretty easily. youll just have to tune one table for the most part.

Knock.... does someone have 2.0L knock threshold values? we can tune that value in as well.

i had the values for SRT knock threshold but it was different than the values that we need as the sensor is different than the earlier 2.4L stratus sensor that you should have (same as 2.2 stuff afaik minus thread pitch) the circuit interfacing it to the MCU is different, and it took into account the fact that the knock noise was less for cyl 1 and 4 as they are further away from the sensor mounting point.

i wish we had two knock threshold tables for our ECU's... one for cyl 2 and 3 and one for cyl 1 and 4.

Brian

Brian

1FastCSX289
02-28-2010, 05:40 PM
.

See post #5 in this thread:

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f341/iso-few-stg-3-tables-538570/
w.

You are a gentleman and a scholar. Thanks! :)


Sean, i have a spreadsheet that can help translate the SRT values into the AdvanceFromMapWarmPart and AdvanceFromMapWarmFull and AdvanceFromRPM2 tables that the SBEC uses.

as far as fuel, i can set that up pretty easily. youll just have to tune one table for the most part.

Knock.... does someone have 2.0L knock threshold values? we can tune that value in as well.

i had the values for SRT knock threshold but it was different than the values that we need as the sensor is different than the earlier 2.4L stratus sensor that you should have (same as 2.2 stuff afaik minus thread pitch) the circuit interfacing it to the MCU is different, and it took into account the fact that the knock noise was less for cyl 1 and 4 as they are further away from the sensor mounting point.

i wish we had two knock threshold tables for our ECU's... one for cyl 2 and 3 and one for cyl 1 and 4.

Brian

Brian

Rob Lloyd has the 2.0 knock values. Ive been talking to him about writing the cal. Ill PM you and maybe we can all get together on it if you dont mind giving me a hand.

I thought the way to go was to run the old-school 2.2 knock sensor. I dont know if its the same electronically as the stratus sensor, but they sure do look the same. And the old school sensor threads right into the 2.4 block. I wonder if there is a valid way to test the two sensors to see if they are the same electronically. Measuring resistance to ground? I dont know. Would make it easier knowing that the two sensors are the same and then we can just use the 2.0 neon values with whatever sensor......

Aries_Turbo
02-28-2010, 06:25 PM
obviously im not trying to barge in on rob's business. :)

but you and i both know (and rob too) that its easier to dial in a cal when the car is available to physically touch.

if you want to have him take a crack at it and we can dial it in when the weather gets nicer, thats cool with me.

what id really like to get my hands on, is early 2.4L stratus knock threshold values as well as the 2.0L to see how they compare.

Brian

Aries_Turbo
02-28-2010, 06:27 PM
oh.... knock sensors.

do an identical conditions test. pop one sensor in and disable all boost as much as possible (take wastegate spring out). hammer the car and datalog the sensor output via the ecu SCI connector. swap sensors and repeat. i think they are the same. i thought the threads were different though i could be completely wrong. :)

Brian

t3rse
02-28-2010, 06:32 PM
Heres a link to an AEM table for timing......this is not stock timing though. So if anyone has an idea of where I could find stock timing, that would be kewl. :)

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f298/srt-stock-spark-maps-392549/

It's in the KC....

Aries_Turbo
02-28-2010, 06:36 PM
It's in the KC....

i was gonna say... didnt we put that in there?

brian

Twisted Noodle
02-28-2010, 06:37 PM
if you want to have him take a crack at it and we can dial it in when the weather gets nicer, thats cool with me. Brian


What do you mean? It's 65 and sunny here..


...I'm sorry

1FastCSX289
02-28-2010, 08:41 PM
obviously im not trying to barge in on rob's business. :)

but you and i both know (and rob too) that its easier to dial in a cal when the car is available to physically touch.

if you want to have him take a crack at it and we can dial it in when the weather gets nicer, thats cool with me.

what id really like to get my hands on, is early 2.4L stratus knock threshold values as well as the 2.0L to see how they compare.

Brian

Yea, I think thats what I will do. Ill have Rob make up a cal. Ill see if I can get the 2.4 stratus knock.....if not, we will use the 2.0 (same head, should be the same). That will get me up and running and then once the weather breaks, ill hit you up to give me a hand DL'ing. Maybe over at your place where we can blast down some country roads.




oh.... knock sensors.

do an identical conditions test. pop one sensor in and disable all boost as much as possible (take wastegate spring out). hammer the car and datalog the sensor output via the ecu SCI connector. swap sensors and repeat. i think they are the same. i thought the threads were different though i could be completely wrong. :)

Brian

Definately the same thread because I checked the stock sensor and screwed it right into the 2.4 block. And no, I didnt cross thread it in there with an impact gun. :eyebrows: :lol:


It's in the KC....


What do you mean? It's 65 and sunny here..


...I'm sorry

Ummmmm.......:confused: :lol:

ShelGame
02-28-2010, 10:59 PM
obviously im not trying to barge in on rob's business. :)

but you and i both know (and rob too) that its easier to dial in a cal when the car is available to physically touch.

if you want to have him take a crack at it and we can dial it in when the weather gets nicer, thats cool with me.

what id really like to get my hands on, is early 2.4L stratus knock threshold values as well as the 2.0L to see how they compare.

Brian

Not at all. All he wants from me is a base cal anyway. I don't usually charge for that. So, why don't we do a colaborative effort to make him one? I'm sure it would help everyone out that is going 2.4 or hybrid.

I have a couple of 94/95 Neon cals. I found the knock table. The high and low voltages are very similar to the 2.2, but the middle section is much different. Since the Neon is SBEC-II anyway, I'm pretty sure the knock control circuitry is the same. I think we could simply scale the Neon knock table by the same ratio as the difference between the 2.2 and 2.5 knock tables (the 2.5 has a slightly higher threshold) to get it close to where the 2.4 should be.

I also think I found the 3D spark tables, and compared it to the T3. Some similarities and some big differences. I still need to figure out the input table scaling first, though. I haven't been able to find a good 68HC16 dis-assembler to fully dis-assemble the Neon code either...

ShelGame
02-28-2010, 11:01 PM
Yea, I think thats what I will do. Ill have Rob make up a cal. Ill see if I can get the 2.4 stratus knock.....if not, we will use the 2.0 (same head, should be the same). That will get me up and running and then once the weather breaks, ill hit you up to give me a hand DL'ing. Maybe over at your place where we can blast down some country roads.

I think the head and block structuire define the basic shape of the knock curve, but the engine power/torque output will affect the voltage level. Like I said above, I think we can scale the 2.0 Neon knock curve to get close to the 2.4 shape.

Aries_Turbo
02-28-2010, 11:32 PM
95 was the first year for the 2.4L in the stratus right? i wonder if we can get ahold of one of those beasts. :)

Brian

BadAssPerformance
02-28-2010, 11:34 PM
95 maybe or 96 for sure

ShelGame
02-28-2010, 11:38 PM
95 was the first year for the 2.4L in the stratus right? i wonder if we can get ahold of one of those beasts. :)

Brian

But, I don't think they used the FCC (Four-Cylinder-Controller) - basically just a 16-bit SBECII. Becuase the '95 Neon came out so early in '94, the first year cars were not OBDII compliant. But, I think the cloud cars were; and they used the JTEC(?) controller. Could be wrong there.

EDIT: Just checked a pic of a '95 Stratus computer on eBay - it's got the dual 50-pin connectors like the '96+ Neon. So, I think they're probably not the same code as the '94/95 Neon FCC...

Aries_Turbo
02-28-2010, 11:51 PM
that sucks. that 96-2002 gap of unobtainable information sure is annoying. :)

Brian

1FastCSX289
03-01-2010, 07:13 AM
Not at all. All he wants from me is a base cal anyway. I don't usually charge for that. So, why don't we do a colaborative effort to make him one? I'm sure it would help everyone out that is going 2.4 or hybrid.



Thats great.....thanks A LOT!! Yes, if we could get something that is close on the knock curve and timing curves (which I now see we have in our own dang knowledge center!!), I feel pretty confident in dialing in the fuel as long as its close enough to start and run (especially with Bucar's help). I am just real nervous about the dang knock being accurate b/c I ate a couple motors running SDS electronics b/c I could never get the knock control correct.

I thought for sure when I started this thread, SOMEONE would have done this already b/c I know Rich has been making the conversion kits for some time now.....theres got to be someone running stock electronics on a 2.4!?!? But, this would be a great base cal to have archived.

Aries_Turbo
03-01-2010, 07:56 AM
So, why don't we do a colaborative effort to make him one? I'm sure it would help everyone out that is going 2.4 or hybrid.

when we are all done with this, ill post it up.

ill datalog the knock volts with a scanner and make sean ride the brakes really hard so we get a good sample of voltage and RPM points. ill also use external knock listening means to make sure we dont have actual knock at that time.

the srt timing is going to be pretty different than the TIII or masi stuff or even the 2.0L dohc neon because of those goofy stock pistons. sean is using them and im going to in the future too.

dialing the fuel in should be cake. :)

Brian

ShelGame
03-17-2010, 04:50 PM
OK, here's my first stab at this.

I translated the SRT4 Stg2 timing maps from the KC into our 2D tables as best I could. If you need some explanation of what I did, just ask. It's kind of complicated. The timing looks really radical to me, but it does translate to the same final timing (roughly) as the SRT4 Stg 2 data that's been posted.

The knock table I copied over directly from the Neon R/T FCC cal. It may not be 100% right, but should be a good starting point.

The fuel I scaled by 45% for 72pph injectors, and becuase the base cal was a 2.5 T1 cal (34/72 * (2.4/2.5)).

The Pumping Efficiency table I copied from the Masi cal, and then scaled up a bit. Again, probably not 100% right but should be close.

This is based on the 2.5 T1 MP MTX 3-bar cal that's posted in the repository. Sorry, my template data for the SBEC is (still, sadly) not ready for prime-time. I'll work on that.

It does have the CE Flash enabled, for reference. And, switchable boost is in there, too. Though, I didn't touch the boost tables at all. Overboost is disabled, though.

Aries_Turbo
03-17-2010, 07:08 PM
why the stage 2 timing vs the stage 3?

the timing table looks to not change after ~14psi as well. there is no change to the 2.4L stuff after 14psi?

Brian

ShelGame
03-17-2010, 07:51 PM
Doh, I forgot. Originally, I was (acidentally) building the timing in a 2-bar cal. When I transferred it over, I forgot to add the extra timing point at 28psi. Gimme a few...

ShelGame
03-17-2010, 08:05 PM
OK, it's fixed. I also included my very rudimentary spreadsheet for looking at the timing in 3D. I really need to add the effects of the MAP vs. RPM multiplier in there. It really gives a 3D shape to the 2D tables used in the SMEC and T1/IV SBEC. Maybe I'll do that later tonight.

If you look at the cal, you'll see I changed the shape of the 'AdvanceFromRPM1' table. This is the MAP multiplier table. When the advance from MAP is negative, it gets multiplied by this table. If you look at the actual Stg2 WOT timing, and my approx, you'll see that I have mor timing in boost at low RPM. I'm using the MAP Mult table to compensate and bring the timing down in this area. I really need to add that calculation in so we can see the 'true' 3D shape of the T1 tables.

In the T1 cals, the MAP Mult is only used with WOT timing.

Oh, and I used the Stg2 timing becuase that's what Sean asked for...

Aries_Turbo
03-17-2010, 08:27 PM
ok that looks better. :)

yeah that timing does look crazy.

i remember looking at the timing a bit ago and noticing that it looked a bit aggressive but i think the piston design allows some of that.

NOTE.... this timing will not work on a dished piston 2.4L

Brian

ShelGame
03-17-2010, 08:39 PM
Timing seems really low in boost - at least comared to the T3. But, then, it has a ton of timing from RPM...

1FastCSX289
03-18-2010, 07:37 AM
Rob, THANKS!!! I appreciate your time.....and ill be sending your pizza and beer money shortly! You guys are speaking a bit of a foreign language here as my D-cal skills are pretty limited right now......but thats why im friends with Bucar. Well, that....and I need SOMEONE to pick on at SDAC meetings.

Ive got a little ways to go on the motor install. Im short on cash right now, so my intake manifold is still not bought. But, ive got to get that, install it and make up the intercooler piping. Should be ready to go in a month. So, we'll have to wait a little on the tweaking of this cal, but I do thank you for helping me out......we'll be in touch. :)

wowzer
03-19-2010, 03:57 PM
.... my D-cal skills are pretty limited right now......


i know a solution to that:nod:

Darkapollo
03-29-2010, 08:17 AM
ok that looks better. :)

yeah that timing does look crazy.

i remember looking at the timing a bit ago and noticing that it looked a bit aggressive but i think the piston design allows some of that.

NOTE.... this timing will not work on a dished piston 2.4L

Brian

Can we get a modified cal that will work with dished (T2) pistons?

Aries_Turbo
03-29-2010, 01:50 PM
take ~8 deg of timing out in boost.

brian

1FastCSX289
03-29-2010, 10:08 PM
BTW, I just ebay'd up an intake mani, so I should be able to install it and get the IC piping done this week. Shooting to try out the cal within the next week or two.

1FastCSX289
05-20-2010, 12:05 PM
Ok.....car is pretty much done......with the exception of the cal. Woo hoo! :nx: I havent written it to the chip yet. Hopefully I can get to do that tomorrow afternoon. I did try to start it on the old calibration (the old 2.2 cal). I dont have any spark. There shouldn't be any cal-related reason to not have any spark with the new set up, would there? I cant think of any reason why this thing wont fire. I have to go through and trouble shoot it, but I figured i would ask around about this before I get the chance to get my nose into it.

Aries_Turbo
05-20-2010, 01:39 PM
you using the distributor adapter? did you re-index the trigger wheel?

Brian

1FastCSX289
05-20-2010, 05:10 PM
you using the distributor adapter? did you re-index the trigger wheel?

Brian

I bought it from Rich Bryant. It looks like the wheel had been removed and re-installed so I would assume its correct.

I looked into it briefly......it seems like the computer kicks the ASD relay on when the key is on then it shuts off once its cranking. Seems to me like its not receiving a dist reference. I checked the rotor and it is turning. Im thinking it has something to do with the distributor but I cant see how I could have screwed it up. Maybe the HEP is crap or something.

turbovanmanČ
05-20-2010, 05:28 PM
take ~8 deg of timing out in boost.

brian

Wouldn't you add 8 deg? if the SRT pistons are domed so to speak and your using dished pistons, wouldn't you add timing?

Aries_Turbo
05-20-2010, 05:58 PM
Wouldn't you add 8 deg? if the SRT pistons are domed so to speak and your using dished pistons, wouldn't you add timing?

no. the crazy quench characteristics of the stock SRT domed piston make it more timing friendly.

you drop the piston dish down in the bore, and not squish the mixture into certain parts of the combustion chamber, and it becomes more timing sensitive.

Brian

Speedeuphoria
05-20-2010, 06:16 PM
correct you can get away with lots more timing on srt pistons

turbovanmanČ
05-20-2010, 07:21 PM
Very interesting, thanks.

Ok, so on that note, why aren't the aftermarket pistons domed?

Aries_Turbo
05-20-2010, 09:50 PM
i dunno. probably cause the SRT slug came out later and they already had an off the shelf piston for years for a regular 2.4L.

brian

cordes
05-20-2010, 10:55 PM
ill datalog the knock volts with a scanner and make sean ride the brakes really hard so we get a good sample of voltage and RPM points. ill also use external knock listening means to make sure we dont have actual knock at that time.


Brian

This is the way I would do it. Does anyone else remember the tech session at 18 mentioning something about just cruising with no load on the motor, record the knock volts, add 10% to those values and call it a day? It seemed as though they were describing that process as independent of motor type?

Aries_Turbo
05-20-2010, 11:40 PM
i thought it was hammering the car but making sure that there was no knock (racegas etc) and then adding 10%. i didnt think it was no load as the change in boost level will make the block ring more, increasing the background noise.

brian

Speedeuphoria
05-21-2010, 12:33 PM
Ok, so on that note, why aren't the aftermarket pistons domed?

the dished pistons are proven to make more HP, the ski ramp pistons are for emissions

JE makes forged copies of the stock pistons

t3rse
05-21-2010, 03:37 PM
i thought it was hammering the car but making sure that there was no knock (racegas etc) and then adding 10%. i didnt think it was no load as the change in boost level will make the block ring more, increasing the background noise.

brian

Just unplug the knock sensor and call it a day :D

Aries_Turbo
05-21-2010, 10:40 PM
Just unplug the knock sensor and call it a day :D

negative. thats foolishness. tune the system around the knock sensor so that its not intruding when the engine is not knocking.

the knock sensor is not there to detect knock during normal operation conditions. its there to pick up abnormalities and save the engine from them. things like bad gas, lots of heat soak, carbon build up hot spots etc.

if the knock sensor is feeding the ecu signals that it interprets as knock, when there isnt knock, then the system needs to be recalibrated.

unplugging the sensor is the lazy way of making power and results in broken parts needlessly. :)

brian

1FastCSX289
05-22-2010, 06:31 AM
negative. thats foolishness. tune the system around the knock sensor so that its not intruding when the engine is not knocking.

the knock sensor is not there to detect knock during normal operation conditions. its there to pick up abnormalities and save the engine from them. things like bad gas, lots of heat soak, carbon build up hot spots etc.

if the knock sensor is feeding the ecu signals that it interprets as knock, when there isnt knock, then the system needs to be recalibrated.

unplugging the sensor is the lazy way of making power and results in broken parts needlessly. :)

brian

I think he was kidding......;)

1FastCSX289
05-22-2010, 06:33 AM
Well........


ITS ALIIIIIVEEEE!!!!!!! :banana-mario:


I got it up and running last night. I didnt realize there were a few extra steps to do to the wiring after Rich Bryant's distributor mods were done. I thought you just bolted it in and ran the ignition wires backward. Not so. You have to install the HEP backwards and then flip the HEP connectors as well. I didnt have a lot of time to spend with it once I got it started so I pretty much just adjusted the timing by ear so that it would kind of idle. I still have to hook up a few vacuum lines and some other odds and ends, so ill be back at it on Monday.

Anyone know what base timing should be set at on that motor??

cordes
05-22-2010, 09:54 AM
i thought it was hammering the car but making sure that there was no knock (racegas etc) and then adding 10%. i didnt think it was no load as the change in boost level will make the block ring more, increasing the background noise.

brian

I agree that the load makes more noise so to speak which is why they said to add 10% to the table once you get the noise with no load. I could be wrong, but that is how I took it. We will have to get some clarification this year. :nod:

Aries_Turbo
05-22-2010, 10:21 AM
I think he was kidding......;)

i think he is partially kidding. :)


Well........


ITS ALIIIIIVEEEE!!!!!!! :banana-mario:


I got it up and running last night. I didnt realize there were a few extra steps to do to the wiring after Rich Bryant's distributor mods were done. I thought you just bolted it in and ran the ignition wires backward. Not so. You have to install the HEP backwards and then flip the HEP connectors as well. I didnt have a lot of time to spend with it once I got it started so I pretty much just adjusted the timing by ear so that it would kind of idle. I still have to hook up a few vacuum lines and some other odds and ends, so ill be back at it on Monday.

Anyone know what base timing should be set at on that motor??

good job. it should be set to 12deg im pretty sure as the cal is based on a SBEC cal and the base timing for that is still 12deg.


I agree that the load makes more noise so to speak which is why they said to add 10% to the table once you get the noise with no load. I could be wrong, but that is how I took it. We will have to get some clarification this year. :nod:

yeah we'll have to check that out. id rather datalog with some boost though and set it marginally higher.

brian

crazymadbastard
05-22-2010, 02:03 PM
Shweeet!

1FastCSX289
05-22-2010, 09:04 PM
good job. it should be set to 12deg im pretty sure as the cal is based on a SBEC cal and the base timing for that is still 12deg.





brian

Yea, this is what Rob said.....ill set it at 12* and go from there.


Shweeet!

Yea man! Im pretty pumped.:eyebrows:

contraption22
05-25-2010, 02:53 PM
Awesome! Happy you got it running. Thank you for sharing everything. Looking forward to your continued progress.

1FastCSX289
05-25-2010, 11:04 PM
Awesome! Happy you got it running. Thank you for sharing everything. Looking forward to your continued progress.

Thanks Mike. I drove it on its own power today for the first time in about a year. Felt good. That 2.4 with the GT30R sounds WICKED. :eyebrows: I didnt really get into it (yet), but it was making boost at about 1/4 throttle by 2500-3000 RPM....its going to be pretty wild!

cordes
05-25-2010, 11:41 PM
Thanks Mike. I drove it on its own power today for the first time in about a year. Felt good. That 2.4 with the GT30R sounds WICKED. :eyebrows: I didnt really get into it (yet), but it was making boost at about 1/4 throttle by 2500-3000 RPM....its going to be pretty wild!

Wild indeed. How fast are you looking to spin it?

turbovanmanČ
05-26-2010, 02:53 AM
Thanks Mike. I drove it on its own power today for the first time in about a year. Felt good. That 2.4 with the GT30R sounds WICKED. :eyebrows: I didnt really get into it (yet), but it was making boost at about 1/4 throttle by 2500-3000 RPM....its going to be pretty wild!

Need a vid, :thumb:

1FastCSX289
05-26-2010, 06:50 AM
Wild indeed. How fast are you looking to spin it?

Like a million......:p

I was thinking it will spin to similarly as the 8V motor.......6000-6500. Its all stock. I think the intake manifold might be a limiting factor there...its just a stock 2.0 man.


Need a vid, :thumb:

Ill get to work on that and post one up.......engine bay still needs a little tidying so you'll have to excuse that part. :thumb:

contraption22
05-26-2010, 07:12 AM
I think that would be a safe ceciling. Actually the best ET's and traps I have gotten out of my SRT4 have been shifting at 5800. Granted... the turbo is a big choke on the SRT's.

Aries_Turbo
06-02-2010, 11:37 PM
from a preliminary test that sean and i did today, it looks like the masi pumping efficiency table might not be the best for a 2.4L with a neon intake and a tubular header. idle was really rich and leaned out pretty bad around 4000rpm where the curve takes a big dip.

he has to button up a few potential issues that could cause the problem (one being put some gas in the car lol) and then do another test. :) i lowered the low rpm fuel that most likely was causing the rich idle and added some fuel in the "dip" at 4000. once a new chip is burned, we'll let you know how it runs.

later the fine tuning will begin and the boost tuning. :)

Brian

1FastCSX289
06-04-2010, 11:31 AM
from a preliminary test that sean and i did today, it looks like the masi pumping efficiency table might not be the best for a 2.4L with a neon intake and a tubular header. idle was really rich and leaned out pretty bad around 4000rpm where the curve takes a big dip.

he has to button up a few potential issues that could cause the problem (one being put some gas in the car lol) and then do another test. :) i lowered the low rpm fuel that most likely was causing the rich idle and added some fuel in the "dip" at 4000. once a new chip is burned, we'll let you know how it runs.

later the fine tuning will begin and the boost tuning. :)

Brian


I took the car out for a run with the new pumping efficiency table and its still falling on its face. But the fuel pressure is dropping like a stone as soon as the boost comes in. I suspected a problem with my modified fuel rail. So, i removed it and took it apart this morning. I cant see any issues with it. But, I drilled it all out and gutted it so there is no seperate tube for inlet/outlet anymore. I will install it and test again. But, I am starting to suspect the fuel pump.

turbovanmanČ
06-04-2010, 04:31 PM
I took the car out for a run with the new pumping efficiency table and its still falling on its face. But the fuel pressure is dropping like a stone as soon as the boost comes in. I suspected a problem with my modified fuel rail. So, i removed it and took it apart this morning. I cant see any issues with it. But, I drilled it all out and gutted it so there is no seperate tube for inlet/outlet anymore. I will install it and test again. But, I am starting to suspect the fuel pump.

Here-

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/vbarticles.php?do=article&articleid=36

1FastCSX289
06-04-2010, 08:22 PM
Here-

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/vbarticles.php?do=article&articleid=36

Thanks Simon. I decided the fuel rail needed a little re-engineering anyways. After talking to Bucar, I decided it was probably best to feed the rail from both ends. So im in the process of making that work.......I got it all together but it leaks. :( So, back off it comes! If the new rail doesnt solve the problem, ill run those tests.

cordes
06-05-2010, 10:39 AM
Thanks Simon. I decided the fuel rail needed a little re-engineering anyways. After talking to Bucar, I decided it was probably best to feed the rail from both ends. So im in the process of making that work.......I got it all together but it leaks. :( So, back off it comes! If the new rail doesnt solve the problem, ill run those tests.

So you are feeding it from both ends. Are you feeding it off of two dedicated lines? Where is the outlet? You have a remote FPR I assume? I'm interested to hear how this will turn out for you.

Aries_Turbo
06-05-2010, 11:23 AM
sean and i discussed splitting the regular feed line in two with a y or t fitting and running one line to one end, and one to the other end so it receives equal pressure from each end. the regulator is still in the stock location for a 1pc intake fuel rail.

i was concerned with the feed line connecting to the rail at the same end as the regulator, the #3 and #4 end injectors could starve when the power gets high.

i originally saw the dual feed rail idea on a high power toyota MR2. feed the rail from each end and have the outlet for the regulator right in the middle of the rail. this isnt exactly like that but should make the fuel flow pretty even.

brian

1FastCSX289
06-05-2010, 11:30 AM
I'm interested to hear how this will turn out for you.

Me too! :) UNfortunately, today I have to fix the A/C and a VC leak on my wife's car. I dont see too much time to be able to fiddle with it this weekend. Hopefully, ill have the leak fixed Monday.



this isnt exactly like that but should make the fuel flow pretty even.

brian

I cant see how it could be any worse than feeding from just the one end anyways......

Looks like the leak is coming from the fuel damper at the end of the rail. I decided to feed the far end of the rail right through the damper because it has an indented hole right in the middle that was just about perfect for a 1/4" NPT tap. So I drilled it the rest of the way through the damper and tapped it. I then had to cut out the rubber diaphragm inside the damper and I think that diaphragm was integral to sealing both halves of the damper together. DOH! Ill have to do away with the damper all together, weld up a plate on the end of the rail and then drill it and tap it fresh. Oh well.

contraption22
06-05-2010, 12:12 PM
Would an aftermarket fuel rail be out of the budget?

Aries_Turbo
06-05-2010, 02:58 PM
this is sean we are talking about. :) king cobble.

though this is a nicely engineered cobble. :) plus youd have to make mounts and possibly procure another fuel pressure regulator etc.

Brian

turbovanmanČ
06-05-2010, 03:10 PM
sean and i discussed splitting the regular feed line in two with a y or t fitting and running one line to one end, and one to the other end so it receives equal pressure from each end. the regulator is still in the stock location for a 1pc intake fuel rail.

i was concerned with the feed line connecting to the rail at the same end as the regulator, the #3 and #4 end injectors could starve when the power gets high.

i originally saw the dual feed rail idea on a high power toyota MR2. feed the rail from each end and have the outlet for the regulator right in the middle of the rail. this isnt exactly like that but should make the fuel flow pretty even.

brian

Yeah, that should work nicely.

cordes
06-05-2010, 04:11 PM
I bet this fuel rail will work really well. Sounds very cost effective too, which I dig.

1FastCSX289
06-05-2010, 06:00 PM
Would an aftermarket fuel rail be out of the budget?

Well.....would I be tapping into the food budget to pay for one? No. But....im trying to do this as low buck as possible. If I cant make this work, I was thinking about buying a turbos unleashed rail and running the regulator as a stand alone. We shall see.


this is sean we are talking about. :) king cobble.

And dont you forget it!! :lol:




I bet this fuel rail will work really well. Sounds very cost effective too, which I dig.

Ive got about 35 bucks in brass fittings into the whole thing.

cordes
06-06-2010, 12:25 AM
Well.....would I be tapping into the food budget to pay for one? No. But....im trying to do this as low buck as possible. If I cant make this work, I was thinking about buying a turbos unleashed rail and running the regulator as a stand alone. We shall see.



And dont you forget it!! :lol:





Ive got about 35 bucks in brass fittings into the whole thing.

those must be some nice fittings.

1FastCSX289
06-07-2010, 07:37 PM
those must be some nice fittings.

Oh...they ARE. ;) Ill have to take pics. I actually did the whole return line in brass. So there is a nice, shiny brass pipe running the length of the fuel rail. I thought that would look a lot nicer than running a rubber line across the top of the rail to feed the other side. So that cost my like 14 dollars just for that brass pipe. Thats like a hundred dollars in regular car guy money. :)

1FastCSX289
06-07-2010, 07:42 PM
So, I got the fuel rail doctored up and now it runs and actually tachs up and boosts and everything. Woo hoo! I drove it around for about 15 minutes today and there are three more issues. One is not really an issue, but all the grease and dirt from my hands that got into the fiberglass heat wrap around my exhaust is smoking like crazy......no biggie....just drive it some more. Second issue is that I have two radiator caps.....one on the 2.0 intake man and the other on the radiator. I have to get a higher pressure cap for the radiator because its popping off before the intake cap pops (which is where the overflow bottle is hooked to). So thats making a mess. And the third is that there is a tiny, tiny pinhole leak coming from one of the welds on the fuel rail. I think I should be able to clean it up and hit it with some JB weld and plug the spot tomorrow. Hopefully that takes care of it and I dont have to yank the whole freaking rail again. BAH!

rbryant
06-07-2010, 08:49 PM
So, I got the fuel rail doctored up and now it runs and actually tachs up and boosts and everything. Woo hoo! I drove it around for about 15 minutes today and there are three more issues. One is not really an issue, but all the grease and dirt from my hands that got into the fiberglass heat wrap around my exhaust is smoking like crazy......no biggie....just drive it some more. Second issue is that I have two radiator caps.....one on the 2.0 intake man and the other on the radiator. I have to get a higher pressure cap for the radiator because its popping off before the intake cap pops (which is where the overflow bottle is hooked to). So thats making a mess. And the third is that there is a tiny, tiny pinhole leak coming from one of the welds on the fuel rail. I think I should be able to clean it up and hit it with some JB weld and plug the spot tomorrow. Hopefully that takes care of it and I dont have to yank the whole freaking rail again. BAH!

I would take the rail off and weld it again.

I just wouldn't trust the JB weld to hold fuel because the consequences of failure are too big. Considering that it can hit 80-90psi that is a lot to ask of JB weld.

With coolant you can chance it with the JB weld but gas is too dangerous.

Where are the pictures of the car with the distributor adapter, etc? ;)

-Rich

turbovanmanČ
06-07-2010, 08:53 PM
I would take the rail off and weld it again.

I just wouldn't trust the JB weld to hold fuel because the consequences of failure are too big. Considering that it can hit 80-90psi that is a lot to ask of JB weld.

With coolant you can chance it with the JB weld but gas is too dangerous.



Totally agree here, your playing with fire, literally.

risen
06-07-2010, 09:00 PM
Totally agree here, your playing with fire, literally.

And here I am thinking everyone's lost one of these cars to a fire. I had a SC burn to a crisp because I ignored a fuel smell for too long back when I was like 18/19. Don't wait. Fix it now.

turbovanmanČ
06-07-2010, 09:03 PM
And here I am thinking everyone's lost one of these cars to a fire. I had a SC burn to a crisp because I ignored a fuel smell for too long back when I was like 18/19. Don't wait. Fix it now.

I know a few who have damaged their cars to a fuel leak, I haven't.

rbryant
06-07-2010, 09:25 PM
I know a few who have damaged their cars to a fuel leak, I haven't.

Back in the day I wasn't thinking with my first T1 SC.

I changed the fuel rail to regulator hose with the style that connects in a 2" section and removed the one that was on my car that had a big ugly loop in it.

A few months later it vibrated loose and sprayed gas all over my engine. Fortunately it stalled and I smelled gas so I coasted to a stop rather than trying to restart the car. I then realized that the loop was actually part of a factory recall to stop the problem of the line vibrating loose!!!

If I had left the key on or tried to start it again the whole thing could have lit up.

Gas isn't something to take chances with. Everyone should be paranoid and make sure they have the best workmanship possible on the fuel lines on high pressure fuel injected cars!

-Rich

1FastCSX289
06-07-2010, 09:54 PM
Alright, alright......sold. Ill remove the rail tomorrow and weld it up. Actually, maybe ill just weld it up on the car, with the gas still in the rail. Whatcha think about that? ;) :wow1:


.....and ill try to remember to bring the camera in so I can get some pics. Ive been meaning to do that.

Aries_Turbo
06-07-2010, 10:10 PM
what about the original end that you said you sealed with JB on the threads.... you going to do anything about that one too or are there more than two threads catching the fitting?

brian

1FastCSX289
06-07-2010, 10:20 PM
what about the original end that you said you sealed with JB on the threads.... you going to do anything about that one too or are there more than two threads catching the fitting?

brian


Actually, I think that fitting was the entire problem. I removed it and saw that it was a serious bottle neck for fuel flow. So I put a straight barb in that end......and its closer to three threads. :eyebrows: Actually, I think that end seals without issue but I JB'd it up for good measure. The far end has about the same for sealing surface as well and its holding just fine.

cordes
06-07-2010, 10:22 PM
Alright, alright......sold. Ill remove the rail tomorrow and weld it up. Actually, maybe ill just weld it up on the car, with the gas still in the rail. Whatcha think about that? ;) :wow1:


.....and ill try to remember to bring the camera in so I can get some pics. Ive been meaning to do that.

I would prime the pump a couple times first. If there is fuel in the rail and no oxygen it won't catch fire. ;)

I was pretty close to being right there with you on the JB weld too though, so I'm not the best voice of reason in the room right now.

Aries_Turbo
06-07-2010, 10:49 PM
lol. three threads.

the local valu hardware store near me has black pipe and cast elbows/couplers in 1/4" npt. i think i am going to try to use that to braze to the original fuel rail for my build. i really dont like fire. :)

i had an omni catch fire from a different reason. the brakes were stuck on, the shift lever was buggered up (as usual) and stuck in third and the grass under the car caught on fire when i did my first startup. didnt lose the car but it was still scary.

Brian

cordes
06-07-2010, 11:57 PM
lol. three threads.

the local valu hardware store near me has black pipe and cast elbows/couplers in 1/4" npt. i think i am going to try to use that to braze to the original fuel rail for my build. i really dont like fire. :)

i had an omni catch fire from a different reason. the brakes were stuck on, the shift lever was buggered up (as usual) and stuck in third and the grass under the car caught on fire when i did my first startup. didnt lose the car but it was still scary.

Brian

Are you seriously going to use black pipe? Aren't you worried about it corroding and plugging up things?

1FastCSX289
06-08-2010, 06:46 AM
I was pretty close to being right there with you on the JB weld too though, so I'm not the best voice of reason in the room right now.

In all honesty, I dont think its that dangerous. We are talking about a leak the size of a head of a pin. If you put a layer of JB on that an 1/8"thick its not going to leak. BUT.....I just dont want to be the guy with the burnt up car and every one on Turbo-Mopar telling me...."I told you so". :lol: So, for good measure....I will weld. I think I can fix it up with the injectors and regulator, etc all still in place.......just run water through the rail to keep from blowing things up....... afterward, then I can dunk the end thats leaking in a bucket and pressure check it with air. Then ill blow it all out with shop air and hook it right back up. Easy Peasy.

contraption22
06-08-2010, 11:11 AM
Might be able to silver solder it.

turbovanmanČ
06-08-2010, 12:57 PM
In all honesty, I dont think its that dangerous. We are talking about a leak the size of a head of a pin. If you put a layer of JB on that an 1/8"thick its not going to leak. BUT.....I just dont want to be the guy with the burnt up car and every one on Turbo-Mopar telling me...."I told you so". :lol: So, for good measure....I will weld. I think I can fix it up with the injectors and regulator, etc all still in place.......just run water through the rail to keep from blowing things up....... afterward, then I can dunk the end thats leaking in a bucket and pressure check it with air. Then ill blow it all out with shop air and hook it right back up. Easy Peasy.

Think of a pinhole with a 100 psi behind it, can you say, Water Jet Cutter, ;)

1FastCSX289
06-08-2010, 02:22 PM
:
Think of a pinhole with a 100 psi behind it, can you say, Water Jet Cutter, ;)

Water jets are like 50,000 PSI. :nod: And I can tell you that I put my finger over that water jet and I didnt get a gasoline injection. JB would hold it. None the less, I ran an entire new bead all around the rail and then a layer of JB on top for extra good measure. I think it will work fine. I hope. :yuck:

monkeyhead
06-08-2010, 09:07 PM
AAAAHHHHH!!!!!! VIDS ARE REQUIRED!!!!! I so so so badly want this conversion in my lebaron.

Aries_Turbo
06-08-2010, 11:41 PM
Are you seriously going to use black pipe? Aren't you worried about it corroding and plugging up things?

either that or galvanized pipe.. the fuel rail is steel anyway. shouldnt matter.

Brian

1FastCSX289
06-09-2010, 10:29 AM
AAAAHHHHH!!!!!! VIDS ARE REQUIRED!!!!! I so so so badly want this conversion in my lebaron.

Its coming!!! I just got the rail back on today so I should be firing it up later on.


either that or galvanized pipe.. the fuel rail is steel anyway. shouldnt matter.

Brian

I heard pixie sticks are pretty strong......you know, the big, plastic ones that give you an instant insulin coma.....a one of those and some elmers glue should do it.

rbryant
06-09-2010, 02:22 PM
I heard pixie sticks are pretty strong......you know, the big, plastic ones that give you an instant insulin coma.....a one of those and some elmers glue should do it.

No need for glue just wet the sugar so that it forms a paste....

-Rich

1FastCSX289
06-09-2010, 07:13 PM
No need for glue just wet the sugar so that it forms a paste....

-Rich

Freaking genius! :clap:

1FastCSX289
06-10-2010, 01:01 PM
The fuel leak is fixed. HOWEVER :mad: the loss of fuel under boost issue is back. :banghead: When I initially drove the car after fixing the fuel rail, I didnt realize that I had blown an IC hose and wasnt getting boost. I noticed the car wasnt bogging down anymore, thought the problem was fixed, and then saw the fuel leak so I just removed the rail to fix the leak. Well......the leak is fixed so i took it for a good long test drive and noticed I wasnt getting any boost. Crap. back in the shop to see that I blew an IC hose. Fixed that. Now, its back to initial problem. AAAARRGH!:mad: So, I either have a fuel pump issue or a regulator issue........ Back to the diag, i guess.

Aries_Turbo
06-10-2010, 08:00 PM
pinch off the regulator line and see what the fuel pressure jumps to.

brian

1FastCSX289
06-11-2010, 06:44 AM
pinch off the regulator line and see what the fuel pressure jumps to.

brian

Yep....thats my next step. Had to run out yesterday.....went over to race club with the kids. ALMOST got the Rampage started. After an hour of farting around trying to figure out why no dist reference we found that it had a TBI distributor in it (no window). Back to that today as well and hopefully it fires. Got a lot of turbo-mopar irons in the fire this week!!

1FastCSX289
06-11-2010, 11:38 AM
It was the damn regulator the whole time. :banghead: Its a nice Accufab regulator and basicly the whole reason why I bothered to cobble the fuel rail together to begin with. Ah well. So I put another regulator in it and took it out, and it boosted to 10 PSI with an A/F ratio of about 9.9:1. So, I would say that is has plenty of fuel. :) Only problem is that the regulator I put in it is an old cobble job, homemade adjustable regulator that I had on my omni about 5 years ago.....its the only regulator I had laying around. So.....I have to scrounge up a decent regulator.

Aries_Turbo
06-11-2010, 10:45 PM
they should have rebuild kits for the accufab....

1FastCSX289
06-12-2010, 08:10 AM
they should have rebuild kits for the accufab....

Yup....already on it. :nod:

bfarroo
06-18-2010, 09:00 PM
So how well would this cal work on a 2.5 Hybrid? I'm currently running a 2 bar with stock injectors but I have a 3 bar map with either 52 or 72#hr injectors available. I haven't found anything as a starting point for the hybrid and a SBEC yet and haven't had a lot of time to work with a cal.

Aries_Turbo
06-18-2010, 11:19 PM
it wont. it will be too much timing for a 2.5L 16v cause a hybrid doesnt have the wierd stock srt piston.

to be honest, you will need to start out with a 2.5L cal scaled to 72 lb and adjust the pumping efficiency table drastically to dial it in to the flow characteristics of the 16v head/manifolds/turbo. fuel is pretty easy to dial in close. set the boost to minimum (preferably 0 if possible) and do a bunch of WOT pulls. dial in the pumping efficiency table to achieve a flat fuel curve. this has to be done based on the AFR that the FuelFullThrottle was calculated to achieve at the pressure level that you had when you did the pulls. if this is over your head, i can give you a hand.

then youll need to spend time tweaking the timing.... alot of time.

i dont like the mentality of "dude, pop this cal in... it ran great on my engine". its not a good idea. :)

for any change to an engine, you need to take the time to dial in the calibration to the changes to have a proper running setup.

a 16v head added to a 2.5L bottom end is a big change. :)

Brian

turbovanmanČ
06-19-2010, 02:12 AM
What he said, it took me months to get mine sort of ok but now with a new engine, gotta start from scratch, :o

1FastCSX289
06-19-2010, 07:55 AM
Made my first changes to this cal myself yesterday. I backed off the pumping efficiency a touch and added more fuel enrichment on warm start up. I got the hot start problem licked and now I need to pull more fuel out. Its sitting at about 10.2:1 (or so).

The car is still hunting for idle, especially as it warms up. Idles up and down, up and down.....and often it seems to want to go wildly out of control. What would you suggest I change to get rid of this? Do you think my throttle blade is closed too far? The computer is forced to open the AIS motor to find an idle?

cordes
06-19-2010, 10:26 AM
Made my first changes to this cal myself yesterday. I backed off the pumping efficiency a touch and added more fuel enrichment on warm start up. I got the hot start problem licked and now I need to pull more fuel out. Its sitting at about 10.2:1 (or so).

The car is still hunting for idle, especially as it warms up. Idles up and down, up and down.....and often it seems to want to go wildly out of control. What would you suggest I change to get rid of this? Do you think my throttle blade is closed too far? The computer is forced to open the AIS motor to find an idle?

What TB are you using? The computer will probably want you to reset the base idle in the traditional way.

Aries_Turbo
06-19-2010, 10:29 AM
could be throttle blade opening (close the ais port and set the idle with the screw and then clear the computer and hook it all back up) but its more like....i dont think we really totally understand how all the tables effect idle. i find that if i have too much timing advance in the govner (advancefromrpm2 i think in your cal...) table at idle rpm, it will really hunt around on my k car. i took a little out, and it started to behave better.

Brian

turbovanmanČ
06-19-2010, 02:09 PM
I guess I got lucky, never had any idle issues. If I have to tweak the throttle blade, I'll use the scanner and use the idle reset mode, then adjust as necessary.

1FastCSX289
06-20-2010, 11:10 AM
What TB are you using? The computer will probably want you to reset the base idle in the traditional way.

Make a vaccum leak, disconnect the AIS and plug vaccum leak, set the idle for about 800 rpm and then reset the computer, right?


could be throttle blade opening (close the ais port and set the idle with the screw and then clear the computer and hook it all back up) but its more like....i dont think we really totally understand how all the tables effect idle. i find that if i have too much timing advance in the govner (advancefromrpm2 i think in your cal...) table at idle rpm, it will really hunt around on my k car. i took a little out, and it started to behave better.

Brian

Ill try resetting the curb idle and then if that doesnt work , ill try that. Thanks.


I guess I got lucky, never had any idle issues. If I have to tweak the throttle blade, I'll use the scanner and use the idle reset mode, then adjust as necessary.

The OTC Genysis is el-sucko when it comes to bidirectional control. I dont think I have any such thing.

cordes
06-20-2010, 11:03 PM
Make a vaccum leak, disconnect the AIS and plug vaccum leak, set the idle for about 800 rpm and then reset the computer, right?



Ill try resetting the curb idle and then if that doesnt work , ill try that. Thanks.



The OTC Genysis is el-sucko when it comes to bidirectional control. I dont think I have any such thing.

IIRC it's 900RPM, but you've got it.

ShelGame
09-15-2011, 04:57 PM
How did this thing turn out in the end? Now that I have T-SBEC working good, I think some of the idle fuel and other issues might get cleared up (like the idle hunting). I'm also going to run my '90 Daytona 2.4 swap on the SBEC...

contraption22
02-24-2012, 02:01 PM
Any updates on this?

Thanks,

Mike

1FastCSX289
04-07-2012, 11:11 PM
Ugghh...guys....been a LOOOONG time. I havent posted here in a while! Im still around. Still kicking but not playing with my car very much. Ive been consumed with my other hobby.....doing the natural bodybuilding thing. Turned Pro last June and now getting ready for my first pro show. Today I went out to the garage and stared at my car for a good while thinking about what needs to be done....thats as far as I got....staring...lol. I didnt get the car out but ONCE last season. I am hoping to resurrect it from the garage this week, get it all cleaned up and fired. THe car is mainly running well with a few little bugs here and there.....the last I had it out the SBEC connector was loose and it was cutting out so I tweaked some of the pin connectors......and that seemed to do it. I know that I stil have a lot of tuning in order to get to be FAST but the current tune seems pretty good for tooling around on the road. Anyways, I am really hoping to make SDAC this year....and maybe even with the CSX. We shall see how it goes. Im gonna try and pop on the forums more often to build some excitement in getting this car up and around the street again. Thanks for asking Mike!!

BadAssPerformance
04-07-2012, 11:24 PM
Welcome back man! Hope to see the CSX at SDAC, good luck with the first Pro show!

Aries_Turbo
04-08-2012, 11:49 AM
good deal sean!

1FastCSX289
04-08-2012, 04:47 PM
Thanks guys. Im looking forward to spending more time tinkering!

cordes
04-13-2012, 06:47 PM
Wow, a professional body builder among us. Very cool. Congrats on the pro card.

Directconnection
04-13-2012, 06:57 PM
Wow, a professional body builder among us. Very cool. Congrats on the pro card.

Yes, totally cool. I remember about 3-4 years ago I was the one totally serious about body building! Now, the wear and tear has wreaked havoc on my joints (combined with heavy lifting at work) to the point that I am on/off and right now... totally off on the lifting thang.

Welcome back Sean!

1FastCSX289
04-16-2012, 10:11 PM
Wow, a professional body builder among us. Very cool. Congrats on the pro card.

He he....thanks man. Its been a long haul and quite a bit more time commitment than ive ever put into a car. Similar kind of satisfaction in it though...very "project like". Love the sport, but ill be happy to take a break after this competition.....im looking forward to throwing back a few beers at SDAC and doing dumb stuff in the parking lot. lol.


Yes, totally cool. I remember about 3-4 years ago I was the one totally serious about body building! Now, the wear and tear has wreaked havoc on my joints (combined with heavy lifting at work) to the point that I am on/off and right now... totally off on the lifting thang.

Welcome back Sean!

Bummer man. I know how it can be....im am constantly battling hip and low back issues. And I find the deeper I dive into this sport the more serious I have to become about pre-hab work and physical therapy as I move forward. If i go a few days without therapy I lock up like a cripple and im done. Its very tough on your body.

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg123/AustrianOakJr/IMAG0251.jpg

So I got this far.......I finally straightened out my garage to he point there my CSX is uncovered and I got a work space cleared. I did the oil and and new belts the other day.....got it started and idling ok. I just have to do a little IC piping work and it will be back on the road enough to start chipping away at the tuning. IM GETTING THERE!!

cordes
04-16-2012, 11:08 PM
Is the motor unhurt and ready to roll? I can't recall where you left off?

Aries_Turbo
04-17-2012, 08:57 AM
I dont think he blew this one up..... yet ;)

the old 8v motor was the one that he would pop weekly hehehe

Brian

Juggy
04-17-2012, 10:02 AM
Hey Sean, I thought u were the guy with the masi CSX???
or am i mixing you up with someone else

Aries_Turbo
04-17-2012, 03:02 PM
didnt ucku have the masi csx with a vnt and a 4" exhaust and that sweet roof decal?

Brian

CNH320
04-17-2012, 07:14 PM
Hey Sean, I thought u were the guy with the masi CSX???
or am i mixing you up with someone else

Your thinking of Paul from Michigan. He had it on the fall color tour last year and was definitely a "spirited" driver. I think Mark Palleschi has a video of him passing the group and a close call with a Blazer. Not sure if that is ucku or not.

Juggy
04-17-2012, 07:22 PM
didnt ucku have the masi csx with a vnt and a 4" exhaust and that sweet roof decal?

Brian


Your thinking of Paul from Michigan. He had it on the fall color tour last year and was definitely a "spirited" driver. I think Mark Palleschi has a video of him passing the group and a close call with a Blazer. Not sure if that is ucku or not.

i think paul is UCKU???
and yeah brian it was the one with the big vinyl carbon fibre decal with the CS on the roof!

663csx-t
04-17-2012, 07:45 PM
pauly had the cs on the roof for a while

Aries_Turbo
04-17-2012, 09:08 PM
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?61666-89-csx-drag-amp-show-car&highlight=

i thought they were one and the same.

1FastCSX289
04-18-2012, 03:16 PM
Is the motor unhurt and ready to roll? I can't recall where you left off?

I can hardly remember where I left off LOL. But yea motor is fine. I left off figuring out a list of bugs. Mostly tuning stuff. It runs and drives ok....just not great.. going out to work on it in a lil bit.


Hey Sean, I thought u were the guy with the masi CSX???
or am i mixing you up with someone else

Nope....I know the car u are talking about but that's not me. I bought this one out of Calif several years back and went through a few 8v motors running mid 12s on sds electronics. Since then I swapped in the 2.4 and have been putzing around and not been real serious. But I'm getting back into it.

contraption22
09-06-2013, 09:27 AM
Blowing the dust off this thread.

Any updates here? I want to go with aftermarket engine management, but budget constraints could keep me with SMEC electronics in my 2.4 swap, at least for a little while.

turbo84voyager
09-06-2013, 12:39 PM
I have a FWD cal for my swap. I know a few people have run the cal with good results. I believe Ohio Rob ran this in multiple cars including his 10 sec charger. I am planning on doing the swap this winter so I wont know for a while. I am in the same boat as you with budget constraints and after doing some research, this seemd to be the best option available at this time.

Justin


Blowing the dust off this thread.

Any updates here? I want to go with aftermarket engine management, but budget constraints could keep me with SMEC electronics in my 2.4 swap, at least for a little while.

A.J.
09-08-2013, 01:42 AM
I'm still tinkering with the SMEC and the 2.4 in my mini-van. I had the 2.4 with a super 60 and my Supra intercooler with 12' of 2" plumbing that ran 14.7 with a too-low-a-stall converter. Since then I dyno tuned it and gained some HP and torque. I installed an air to water intercooler and street tuned it because I was getting detonation. I cracked my exhaust manifold and am in the process of installing an AGP twin scroll exhaust manifold, external wastgate, and AGP twin scroll Zeta 2.8 duel ball bearing turbo. I'm hoping to have it running in the next week. It would have been running this week but I threw out my back and I was in traction for most of the week. I'll street tune it, then probably dyno tune it, and then hit the track. My goal was 13's with the S60 but with this new set up I think 12's are achievable. The turbine housing is a 1.0 but have the option of going down to a .75 if there is too much lag. I don't want to condemn the turbine housing since my converter stall is too low so I might install a higher stall turbo-car converter before I switch turbine housings. I got the factory timing curves via SRT forums but they didn't work for me. I think it's because I'm running a distributor and a slower processor. I have all my old tunes and am willing to share them since Brian and Sean were gracious enough to share Sean's tune with me to get me up and running.

Aries_Turbo
09-08-2013, 08:59 AM
Blowing the dust off this thread.

Any updates here? I want to go with aftermarket engine management, but budget constraints could keep me with SMEC electronics in my 2.4 swap, at least for a little while.

mike, arent you running dished pistons? your timing values are going to be different than the ones that sean used cause he used factory SRT pistons which react to timing differently.

JT's timing values that he uses for his FAST setup could be used for your motor cause i think he used dished pistons.

if you wanted, i could take seans fuel values and see if i can get JT's timing and make a base cal for you and others?

Brian

contraption22
09-08-2013, 03:25 PM
mike, arent you running dished pistons? your timing values are going to be different than the ones that sean used cause he used factory SRT pistons which react to timing differently.

JT's timing values that he uses for his FAST setup could be used for your motor cause i think he used dished pistons.

if you wanted, i could take seans fuel values and see if i can get JT's timing and make a base cal for you and others?

Brian

Thanks, Brian. I am using a piston with a small dish. Should be around 9:1 compression.

turbo84voyager
09-09-2013, 11:18 AM
Brian, if you can make a base cal using JT's that would be great.

The timing would be different between pistons but I dont believe it is much different. Nothing like the difference between a G-head and a swirl on a 2.5. I know people who ran the same cal for both types of pistons with just a hair more or less timing at the distributor.

I could be wrong here but with the dished pistons, I would think a cal set up for a hybrid engine would be the closest. I believe several people have dyno tuned their hybrid setup, that may be the best starting point or atleast something to compare to.

Another point is even if you have the correct timing cruve in the advance table there are other timing tables that can make a difference. For example the table that simulates mechanical advance. Changes to this table appeared to make a big difference in the g-cals.

Aries_Turbo
09-10-2013, 06:57 AM
the timing on a srt cal has an average of 8deg more advance than ones for a 2.4L dished piston turbo motor.

its significantly more.

Brian

jonnymopar
09-10-2013, 12:53 PM
Rob Lloyd is working on a cal for me. I've been running the FWD cal for a while and it's ok, but I'm gonna start fresh and see if I can get rid of some of the persistent bugs I haven't been able to figure out.

tkelly27
09-10-2013, 11:41 PM
I think the best way to find a good tune for a 2.4 SMEC is to go out on a long drive with someone in the passenger seat manning a netbook and tuning an ostrich. Tune until you run out of gas or battery.

contraption22
09-11-2013, 10:53 AM
the timing on a srt cal has an average of 8deg more advance than ones for a 2.4L dished piston turbo motor.

its significantly more.

Brian

I wonder if you could get away with "full SRT-4 timing" with race gas.

Aries_Turbo
09-11-2013, 03:39 PM
I wonder if you could get away with "full SRT-4 timing" with race gas.

maybe, but with the knock sensor curve not being tuned or with no listening devices, it might be a gamble.

now with a SMEC running the show, turn the distributor and retard the timing with the SRT curves in the SMEC, it would probably be fine to drive around town and stuff. :)

Brian

Aries_Turbo
09-26-2013, 09:33 PM
ok i have some timing maps for 2.4L engines that run well (10's) and have dished pistons. both some race fuel maps and pump gas maps.

ill probably use Seans fuel curves (2.4L, srt pistons, neon dohc manifold, obx header i think?, GT30R, big exhaust) combined with some blend of the timing tables i have to make a decent 2.4L dished piston base cal, both pump gas and race gas.

of course it will take some tuning to make it perfect or match every detail of your setup but it should be pretty good to start the car and get going on tuning.

it will take me a bit of time though. i have a 7week old kid lol.

A big thanks to JT for procuring these for me. :)

Brian

BadAssPerformance
09-26-2013, 10:36 PM
Always glad to help :nod:

contraption22
09-27-2013, 09:14 AM
Thanks all! Take all the time you need. I don't see me firing this thing up for 6 months or more.

Dohc Rocks
10-07-2013, 10:05 AM
Is it possible to have a look see at these dished piston timing maps ?>

Aries_Turbo
10-23-2013, 09:31 PM
[QUOTE=Dohc Rocks;1013353]Is it possible to have a look see at these dished piston timing maps ?>[/QUOTE

sorry it took me a little while. i was getting permission from the creators of these maps to post them publicly.

47270

this one is JT's super safe for 110 octane map.

47271
47272

these are some of DJ's maps.

Brian

Dohc Rocks
10-23-2013, 11:33 PM
Wow that first map is extremely conservative....

I was expecting to see a lot more timing in cruise.

Aries_Turbo
10-24-2013, 05:11 AM
yeah, thats jt's. he has been running super safe timing for years. and his car flies. i guess we dont need to go balls to the wall all the time with timing. im sure it helps keep his motor/headgasket together when pushing a not-so-light car deep into the 10's .

Brian

turbo84voyager
03-17-2014, 11:16 AM
Can someone recommend documentation or explain how to read the timing tables listed above? I dont understand the ignition load. How does the timing table reference boost / vacuum? I am sure it is easy to read but for some reason I cant get it. I am used to working with the tables in D-cal where there is the timing tables and the one that simulates the mechanical advance. I have some experience modifying our cals especially the 2.5 G head cal and I would like to start working on a 2.4 cal and or Brian if you are interested ill give you a hand with it.

Thanks,

Justin

turbo84voyager
03-19-2014, 10:20 AM
I am a complete idiot. After looking at the tables a 1/2 dozen times i realized what I was looking at. I forgot the kPa calculation. I threw together a spreadsheet to convert it and now it makes perfect sense. I am going to try to convert these over as best as I can. I can't guarantee I will get it right but I will try. If anyone would like to help or have any suggestions, let me kow.

turbo84voyager
03-19-2014, 11:35 PM
Attached is my first version of the 2.4 dished piston cal based on DJ's 91 octane timing. I only made changes to the timing tables. I also matched the knock voltage table to the posted 2.4 cal. I DID NOT do anything to the fuel or even scale it for the injectors. My goal was to match the timing as close as possible. Most of the changes were in the Part throttle / full throttle timing tables and the RPM timing (governor). The lines look a little strange but when I compare the calculated timing in D-cal the tables almost exactly match DJ's. From going over it several times the numbers that don't match are off by about 1 degree except for a few of the timing numbers which you will never see, for example 20 psi at 1500 rpm. I have a copy of one of Sean's cals that Brian worked on and I would like to use the fuel tables from it but I would like permission to do it first. Take a look at it and let me know what you think. If you see anything that catches you eye please let me know. I have been looking at these numbers for several hours so it is possible there is a mistake I missed. Hopefully this will be a good start to getting a 2.4 dished piston cal. I also think the finished cal would be a good base cal for a 2.5 hybrid. Thanks again to DJ and JT for allowing Brian to post your timing tables! Also attached is the XLS file with the kPa conversion.

turbo84voyager
03-20-2014, 10:01 AM
I found an error in the timing in vacuum. When looking at the table last night I looked at a few of the negative values as inHg not PSI by accident. I fixed the changes and got the timing as close as I can to the table.