fuel with ethonal ?

[Lee'sdaytona]

I have seen a few stations now add 10% ethonal to their fuel....should I watch out for this on a turbo II engine that I normally run 93 octane in? Will it hurt a turbo engine?
-Lee

[4cefedomni]

i don't think you have to worry ethanol burns cleaner has a high octane is not corrosive in low concentrations and it burns cooler. pure ethanol has an octane of 113 they add it to increase the octane of thier fuel most 10% ethanol regular gasolines have about 90 octane versus the regular 87.

[cordes]

Ehtinol is not a problem. I have heard that runnig methanol is not that great though.

[Frank]

Honestly, I dont think it is enough to matter in any engine in a flex fuel. There is no economical advantage of it, and it costs more to make in the current quantities for large scale use.


Frank

[Frank]

Oh and Ethanol only has a octane rating of 98.. this is using the standard equation at fuel stations which is (RON+MON)/2. Ethanol has a RON of 107 and a MON of 89. Methanol has a 106 and 92 respectively. Most of the reason for adding Ethanol to gasonline is you can rase the octane ratings of cheap gas to something that is sellable and make more of your gas supply usable... and to fake out the tree huggers.

[DeckSetter]

10% ethanol shouldn't cause any problems. Even running E85 (85% ethanol / 15% gasoline) shouldn't cause any problems once or twice, but high concentrations of ethanol will corrode your fuel pump / lines. E85 cars typically have either stainless steel or teflon lined components.

[4cefedomni]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



Contact: 605-334-3381

American Coalition for Ethanol (ACE)

Kristin Brekke, Communications Director

Ethanol to Fuel IndyCar Series

Sioux Falls, South Dakota (March 3, 2005) – The American Coalition for Ethanol (ACE) announced today that beginning with the 2006 season, the Indy Racing League's IndyCar ® Series will be fueled by ethanol.



“The American Coalition for Ethanol is extraordinarily proud that the IndyCar Series has made ethanol its fuel of choice,” said Brian Jennings, ACE Executive Vice President. “When we had our first discussions three years ago, we dared to dream that ethanol could be the fuel to power the Indy Racing League. Now ethanol will prove its high performance merits in an incredible venue, and the U.S. ethanol industry is grateful for the opportunity and eager to get started.”



In an announcement today at Union Station on Capitol Hill in Washington, DC, Indy Racing League and ethanol industry officials explained that the 2006 IndyCar Series will be fueled by a blend of 90% methanol – the league's current racing fuel – and 10% ethanol. The 2007 series will be powered by 100% ethanol.



“We are proud to partner with the ethanol industry to showcase a great American fuel source,” said Ken Ungar, the Indy Racing League's Senior Vice President of Business Affairs. “We feel a commitment to the environment and our country's energy security is consistent with our sports' legacy of race-bred innovation and leadership.”

The Indy Racing League has been in discussion for several years with a coalition of ethanol industry companies, led by major ethanol facility engineering and construction firms: Fagen, Inc. of Granite Falls, Minnesota; ICM, Inc. of Colwich, Kansas; and Broin Companies of Sioux Falls, South Dakota. The three companies have pooled their resources to launch this high-profile marketing partnership.



“A key part of ACE's market development efforts has been showing consumers, through racing, that ethanol is a high-octane performance fuel,” said Ron Lamberty, American Coalition for Ethanol Vice President / Market Development. “We can tell people that ethanol performs, but showing them is far more effective. And what better way to show them than by running the world's most powerful racing machines and the world's most famous race on the same ethanol that they can buy for their cars?”



Race car engines operating on ethanol have demonstrated excellent performance, and internal dynamometer testing has shown that there are no technical barriers to replacing methanol with ethanol. Ethanol's high octane rating delivers strong engine performance by helping engines resist detonation so they can run higher compression ratios.



“The transition between methanol and ethanol in our cars should be very smooth,” said Phil Casey, the IRL's Senior Technical Director. “Our cars won't sound differently, smell differently, or run differently than they have in the past. There will be a seamless transition from methanol to ethanol in our cars.”



The ethanol industry is sponsoring one entry in this year's IndyCar Series lineup. The No. 91 Ethanol Hemelgarn Dallara/Toyota/Firestone entry will be driven by Paul Dana. Team owner Ron Hemelgarn was one of the founding members of the IRL, and his cars won the 1996 Indianapolis 500 and the 2000 IndyCar Series Championship.



Ethanol Fast Facts:

Ethanol is a clean-burning, renewable fuel made from crops such as corn.
Currently 83 ethanol plants are operating in the U.S. with 16 more under construction.
The U.S. produced 3.4 billion gallons of ethanol in 2004, up from 2.81 billion gallons in 2003.
Ethanol is blended into approximately 30% of the nation's gasoline.
Nearly half of U.S. ethanol comes from facilities owned by farmers and other local investors.
Ethanol is a high-performance fuel with a 113 octane rating.


Photos available upon request:

Contact Kristin Brekke by phone at (605) 334-3381 or by e-mail at kbrekke@ethanol.org.



Learn more online:

American Coalition for Ethanol: www.ethanol.org

Indy Racing League: www.indycar.com

Paul Dana and Team Ethanol: www.pauldana.com



###





The American Coalition for Ethanol (ACE) is the grassroots voice of the U.S. ethanol industry. ACE is a national, non-profit organization of more than 700 members in 41 states, including farmers, ethanol producers, commodity organizations, businesses supplying goods and services to the ethanol industry, rural electric cooperatives, and individuals supportive of increased production and use of ethanol. For more information about the organization or about ethanol, visit ACE on the Web at www.ethanol.org or call (605) 334-3381.

[Frank]

Here is the bad on ethanol. We know that ethanol has an A/F of 9:1, so it requires more fuel consumption and it produces less BTU's then gasoline. This means that when you mix with gasonline, your fuel consumption goes up!!!! OUCH! THis news article was linked direction from www.fuelconsumption.gov...
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/28/automobiles/28FUEL.html?ex=1306468800&en=6dbb778c5872b41a&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

That ACE octane rating is only the RON and not the MON. The full octane rating of (R+M)/2 is much lower.



Frank

[GLHSKEN]

No kidding. winter "blends" cost me 1mpg in the truck...

[4cefedomni]

ethanol: ron 130 , mon 96, (R+M)/2 113. sorry man its 113 i don't want to be an a$$ but thats what it is. it does have a comperatively low mon which means it wont be as good in a turbocharged motor as other fuels toluene for example has ron 121, mon 107, (R+M)/2 114. basically same average but the mon number affects us more so toluene would be the better choice.

[Frank]

ethanol: ron 130 , mon 96, (R+M)/2 113. sorry man its 113 i don't want to be an a$$ but thats what it is. it does have a comperatively low mon which means it wont be as good in a turbocharged motor as other fuels toluene for example has ron 121, mon 107, (R+M)/2 114. basically same average but the mon number affects us more so toluene would be the better choice.

Where do you get your resources? The attached pictures and the article section below back up my claims... unless there is some technicality of pure ethanol isnt really pure ethanol.... or something weird like that. :D

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1093&stc=1&d=1149209971
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1094&stc=1&d=1149209971



9.3 What are the advantages of alcohols and ethers?

This section discusses only the use of high ( >80% ) alcohol or ether
fuels. Alcohol fuels can be made from sources other than imported crude
oil, and the nations that have researched/used alcohol fuels have mainly
based their choice on import substitution. Alcohol fuels can burn more
efficiently, and can reduce photochemically-active emissions. Most vehicle
manufacturers favoured the use of liquid fuels over compressed or liquified
gases. The alcohol fuels have high research octane ratings, but also high
sensitivity and high latent heats [6,17,51,74].


Methanol Ethanol Unleaded
Gasoline
RON 106 107 92 - 98
MON 92 89 80 - 90
Heat of Vaporisation (MJ/kg) 1.154 0.913 0.3044
Nett Heating Value (MJ/kg) 19.95 26.68 42 - 44
Vapour Pressure @ 38C (kPa) 31.9 16.0 48 - 108
Flame Temperature ( C ) 1870 1920 2030
Stoich. Flame Speed. ( m/s ) 0.43 - 0.34
Minimum Ignition Energy ( mJ ) 0.14 - 0.29
Lower Flammable Limit ( vol% ) 6.7 3.3 1.3
Upper Flammable Limit ( vol% ) 36.0 19.0 7.1
Autoignition Temperature ( C ) 460 360 260 - 460
Flash Point ( C ) 11 13 -43 - -39

The major advantages are gained when pure fuels ( M100, and E100 ) are
used, as the addition of
hydrocarbons to overcome the cold start problems also significantly
reduces, if not totally eliminates, any emission benefits. Methanol will
produce significant amounts of formaldehyde, a suspected human carcinogen,
until the exhaust catalyst reaches operating temperature. Ethanol produces
acetaldehyde. The cold-start problems have been addressed, and alcohol
fuels are technically viable, however with crude oil at <$30/bbl they are
not economically viable, especially as the demand for then as precursors
for gasoline oxygenates has elevated the world prices. Methanol almost
doubled in price during 1994. There have also been trials of pure MTBE as a
fuel, however there are no unique or significant advantages that would
outweigh the poor economic viability [11].

[Lee'sdaytona]

geeze, looks like I started another war :rolleyes:
-Lee

[DodgeZ]

Where do you get your resources? The attached pictures and the article section below back up my claims... unless there is some technicality of pure ethanol isnt really pure ethanol.... or something weird like that. :D

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1093&stc=1&d=1149209971
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1094&stc=1&d=1149209971
you are a nerd

[Frank]

LOL. No war here. If I am wrong, I want to know why. No hard feelings whatsoever... which is not typical of a war. ;)


Frank

[Frank]

you are a nerd

SHHH!!!! You will scare away the very few remaining women in the world who might in a frozen chance might like me! LOL. Great book though, seriously!


Frank

[89acclaim]

you are a nerd
I have the same book.:D Frank doesn't lie when he says it is a good book. You to get a weird look when you say it is your pleasure reading though.

Daniel Merrill

[4cefedomni]

Comparison of Typical Properties of Common Oxygenates
Property Denatured MTBE ETBE TAME
Ethanol
Oxygen wt. % 33.0 18.15 15.06 15.06
Blending Octane (R+M)/2 112.5 111.0 111.0 105.5
Blending Research Octane 129.0 119.0 119.0 112.0
Blending Motor Octane 96.0 103.0 103.0 99.0
Blending Vapor Pressure, psi 18.0 8.0 4.0 2.5
Energy Content btu/gal 76.1M 93.5M 96.9M 100.6M
Boiling Point °F 152-174 131 161 187
Density (lb./gal @ 60°F) 6.58 6.19 6.20 6.41
Legal Maximum vol % 10.0% 15.0% 17.2% 17.2%
for gasoline blending
Note that property values may vary slightly depending on the composition and density of the base gasoline to which
ethanol is added. this is from the website for industry standards for E85 fuel the first set of octane numbers are for ethanol 112.5,129.0,96.0 http://www.e85fuel.com/forsuppliers/rfa_technical_manual.pdf

[4cefedomni]

in the previous link the octane numbers are on page 7

[cordes]

So am I reading the above table right that the o2 level is what can alter the ocatne rating of ethanol? It would make sense.

I did a little research and found many seemingly credible sources of various ratings. One canadian site I found listed a 118 "blending octane" IIRC.

[Frank]

Comparison of Typical Properties of Common Oxygenates
Property Denatured MTBE ETBE TAME
Ethanol
Oxygen wt. % 33.0 18.15 15.06 15.06
Blending Octane (R+M)/2 112.5 111.0 111.0 105.5
Blending Research Octane 129.0 119.0 119.0 112.0
Blending Motor Octane 96.0 103.0 103.0 99.0
Blending Vapor Pressure, psi 18.0 8.0 4.0 2.5
Energy Content btu/gal 76.1M 93.5M 96.9M 100.6M
Boiling Point °F 152-174 131 161 187
Density (lb./gal @ 60°F) 6.58 6.19 6.20 6.41
Legal Maximum vol % 10.0% 15.0% 17.2% 17.2%
for gasoline blending
Note that property values may vary slightly depending on the composition and density of the base gasoline to which
ethanol is added. this is from the website for industry standards for E85 fuel the first set of octane numbers are for ethanol 112.5,129.0,96.0 http://www.e85fuel.com/forsuppliers/rfa_technical_manual.pdf

I dont agree with that listing of Denatured Ethanol being that high....


Read the following article... note the section that I underline.... rather interesting... since MTBE was mentioned.




Some countries are increasing the level of aromatics to 50% or higher in
super unleaded grades, usually to avoid refinery reconfiguration costs or
the introduction of oxygenates as they phase out the toxic lead octane
enhancers. An upper limit is usually placed on the amount of benzene
permitted, as it is known human carcinogen.

15% n-paraffins RON MON BP d AIT
n-butane 113 : 114 : -0.5: gas : 370
n-pentane 62 : 66 : 35 : 0.626 : 260
n-hexane 19 : 22 : 69 : 0.659 : 225
n-heptane (0:0 by definition) 0 : 0 : 98 : 0.684 : 225
n-octane -18 : -16 : 126 : 0.703 : 220
( you would not want to have the following alkanes in gasoline,
so you would never blend kerosine with gasoline )
n-decane -41 : -38 : 174 : 0.730 : 210
n-dodecane -88 : -90 : 216 : 0.750 : 204
n-tetradecane -90 : -99 : 253 : 0.763 : 200
30% iso-paraffins
2-methylpropane 122 : 120 : -12 : gas : 460
2-methylbutane 100 : 104 : 28 : 0.620 : 420
2-methylpentane 82 : 78 : 62 : 0.653 : 306
3-methylpentane 86 : 80 : 64 : 0.664 : -
2-methylhexane 40 : 42 : 90 : 0.679 :
3-methylhexane 56 : 57 : 91 : 0.687 :
2,2-dimethylpentane 89 : 93 : 79 : 0.674 :
2,2,3-trimethylbutane 112 : 112 : 81 : 0.690 : 420
2,2,4-trimethylpentane 100 : 100 : 98 : 0.692 : 415
( 100:100 by definition )
12% cycloparaffins
cyclopentane 141 : 141 : 50 : 0.751 : 380
methylcyclopentane 107 : 99 : 72 : 0.749 :
cyclohexane 110 : 97 : 81 : 0.779 : 245
methylcyclohexane 104 : 84 : 101 : 0.770 : 250
35% aromatics
benzene 98 : 91 : 80 : 0.874 : 560
toluene 124 : 112 : 111 : 0.867 : 480
ethyl benzene 124 : 107 : 136 : 0.867 : 430
meta-xylene 162 : 124 : 138 : 0.868 : 463
para-xylene 155 : 126 : 138 : 0.866 : 530
ortho-xylene 126 : 102 : 144 : 0.870 : 530
3-ethyltoluene 162 : 138 : 158 : 0.865 :
1,3,5-trimethylbenzene 170 : 136 : 163 : 0.864 :
1,2,4-trimethylbenzene 148 : 124 : 168 : 0.889 :
8% olefins
2-pentene 154 : 138 : 37 : 0.649 :
2-methylbutene-2 176 : 140 : 36 : 0.662 :
2-methylpentene-2 159 : 148 : 67 : 0.690 :
cyclopentene 171 : 126 : 44 : 0.774 :
( the following olefins are not present in significant amounts
in gasoline, but have some of the highest blending octanes )
1-methylcyclopentene 184 : 146 : 75 : 0.780 :
1,3 cyclopentadiene 218 : 149 : 42 : 0.805 :
dicyclopentadiene 229 : 167 : 170 : 1.071 :

Oxygenates
Published octane values vary a lot because the rating conditions are
significantly different to standard conditions, for example the API Project
45 numbers used above for the hydrocarbons, reported in 1957, gave MTBE
blending RON as 148 and MON as 146, however that was partly based on the
lead response, whereas today we use MTBE in place of lead.

methanol 133 : 105 : 65 : 0.796 : 385
ethanol 129 : 102 : 78 : 0.794 : 365
iso propyl alcohol 118 : 98 : 82 : 0.790 : 399
methyl tertiary butyl ether 116 : 103 : 55 : 0.745 :
ethyl tertiary butyl ether 118 : 102 : 72 : 0.745 :
tertiary amyl methyl ether 111 : 98 : 86 : 0.776 :

There are some other properties of oxygenates that have to be considered
when they are going to be used as fuels, particularly their ability to
form very volatile azeotropes that cause the fuel's vapour pressure to
increase, the chemical nature of the emissions, and their tendency to
separate into a separate water-oxygenate phase when water is present.
The reformulated gasolines address these problems more successfully than
the original oxygenated gasolines.

[Frank]

So am I reading the above table right that the o2 level is what can alter the ocatne rating of ethanol? It would make sense.

I did a little research and found many seemingly credible sources of various ratings. One canadian site I found listed a 118 "blending octane" IIRC.

Yes it does vary it, but there is some cost to it and is more fake then anything. And it is not nessecarily better for the car or emissions. Increasing oxygenates actually increases aldehydes and aliphatic ketones, the later which are eye and respiratory tract irritants. I believe these are found on your emission checks as HC parts. Paraphrased from that book...

However his article is not ethanol being blended... it ethanol being used as an oxygenate... which is what ethanol is. I would like to know why they Blending Octane, etc.... that is suspecious!

[4cefedomni]

your article on the previous pages gave a ron of 129 and a mon of 102 are there any consistent ratings out there?

[Frank]

Well it was that same oxygenated crap.... but no... no consistantsy.


Frank

[GLHSKEN]

The hell with everything else, My 360 Dakota HATES it mileage wise!!!

[4cefedomni]

i'm sticking by my toluene:D

[cordes]

i'm sticking by my toluene:D


If you can find it for a decent price that is what I would prefer.

I think that one of us nees to pioneer o2 injection. :eyebrows: