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ShelGame
05-29-2006, 11:02 PM
I raced the IHRA divisional at US131 this past weekend. I qualified #8 out of 41 with a 14.038 pass. Unfortunately, I never got to the first round.

I raced in the combo race Sat. night, won 3 rounds and blew the #4 piston. Didn't feel it on the run at all, but the tech buys pulled me over after the turn off for oil smoke. There was oil blown out of my breather filter and all over the exhaust (huge blow-by). When I restarted the engine, I had a definite missfire. Went to the pits and checked everything out, plugs/wires seemed OK, so I did a compression check - ~130psi in all cylinders except #4 - 60psi.

So, here's the run down. Plugs all looked good, slightly rich actually. No A/F and no scanner, but it's in the works. The car has only 18 passes on it total. 2 of those passes were at 18psi boost, I went back down to 15psi for this weekend (didn't want to go to fast). The first 10 or so passes were at 5-12 psi. It's a race only car, so that's all the miles it has on it, plus driving the return road. The engine was all new this season. Fresh block, head, pistons, rods, bearings, you name it. It has only ever had Torco 110 race gas in it. Today, I pulled the head, and there was a semi-circular melted spot on the #4 piston near the exhaust valve. So, I pulled the piston, no cracked ring lands like I expected. But, there is some ally on the cyl walls that should clean up. Also, the combustion chambers on 1-3 looked slightly black (rich) #4 was still clean around the intake valve, but black around the exhaust. Pistons are Sealed Power cast (the only piston allowed when I bought them, Ross are now allowed and may be my replacement). I'm running my own 3-bar cal with +20 injectors. I know the cal is conservative, and it's setup to be safely rich at WOT.

Before I just bolt it back together, what caused #4 to die?

Timing? Base timing is set to 12*. But, the race convertor I put in had no timing mark, so I had to make my own. It could be off by 2-3 degrees, I guess. But why would only #4 melt?

Fuel? They're +20's and the clyinders don't look lean at all. I suppose #4 injector could be clogged or just off.

Whorse
05-29-2006, 11:06 PM
#4 gets the worst cooling of all the cylinders. That could be part of it?

boost geek
05-29-2006, 11:32 PM
My guess is "crappola pistons."

CSXT802
05-30-2006, 12:35 AM
My guess is "crappola pistons."
+1^
Those pistons are probably hyper-you-junktic.:nod:

Lugert
05-30-2006, 01:05 AM
#4 gets the worst cooling of all the cylinders. That could be part of it?

I agree that the cooling is probably the problem.

Did you get the name on the side of the car?
I would like to see photos if you did.

EDIT: I missed the part about no broken piston.

Any pics of the damage?

turbovanmanČ
05-30-2006, 01:29 AM
I would say bad injector. I have run many a race at 23 psi and never melted #4, tons of others have too without the cooling mod. It could also be just a bad piston?

Ondonti
05-30-2006, 01:51 AM
I find the story pretty confusing since you open up the engine and your writing makes it seem like almost nothing is wrong with the piston.

Picture would definitly help.

Do you have a hotspot in the combustion chamber causing preignition?
What spark plugs,

Do your heads have a ghetto port job?
Do the pistons have dangerous hot spot locations on them??

ShelGame
05-30-2006, 08:03 AM
I find the story pretty confusing since you open up the engine and your writing makes it seem like almost nothing is wrong with the piston.

Picture would definitly help.

Do you have a hotspot in the combustion chamber causing preignition?
What spark plugs,

Do your heads have a ghetto port job?
Do the pistons have dangerous hot spot locations on them??

Sorry, late night + crappy laptop keybord.

The top of the piston has a melted spot, near the exhaust valve. The ring lands, though, are not cracked at all (at least not to the point where they fall out, I guess).

Plugs were Accel Super (not sure of the heat range, they were for break-in only, maybe too hot?), changed to the MP/Bosch right before this happened.

No porting on the head, it's not allowed. The pistons are stock replacements from FederalMogul (Sealed Power). No additional cutting or work to them.

The camera didn't make it out of the trailer. I'll get some pics up ASAP.

ShelGame
05-30-2006, 08:04 AM
I would say bad injector. I have run many a race at 23 psi and never melted #4, tons of others have too without the cooling mod. It could also be just a bad piston?

That's the thought I had as well. I'm going to get them flowed. At least then, I can put the fattest injector into #4...

ShelGame
05-30-2006, 08:06 AM
I agree that the cooling is probably the problem.

Did you get the name on the side of the car?
I would like to see photos if you did.

EDIT: I missed the part about no broken piston.

Any pics of the damage?

Yeah, I did get the decals on. I need to get some lessons on installing them, though. They have a couple of wrinkles. As soon as I can get the camera out of the trailer, I'll post them.

The piston is broken - just the crown, though. Ring lands are intact.

ShelGame
05-30-2006, 08:08 AM
+1^
Those pistons are probably hyper-you-junktic.:nod:

Yes, they are. But, it's the only piston allowed (well, at the time I bought them).

I know others are running these same pistons at higher boost than I, and not having this problem. At least, not this soon.

CSXT802
05-30-2006, 08:34 AM
Yes, they are. But, it's the only piston allowed (well, at the time I bought them).

I know others are running these same pistons at higher boost than I, and not having this problem. At least, not this soon.

I tryed hyper-you-junktic pistons once. In fact they were sealed power provided by the machine shop that did the work. These pistons were in a 1989 2.5 turbo caravan bone stock. It broke # 1 piston on the test drive after the motor job ( less than 5 miles) It turned out the van had a bad knock sensor. But the piston could not even handle small amounts of detonation on stock boost. The crown of the piston fractured like glass.:amen:

puppet
05-30-2006, 08:36 AM
Well Sealed Power makes both types of piston. I think the letter "P" at the end of the P/N string denotes regular cast pistons. Mine are living at 25 psi. Another member posted over at TD and was running 30+ psi for a couple years on them.

ShelGame
05-30-2006, 08:41 AM
Well Sealed Power makes both types of piston. I think the letter "P" at the end of the P/N string denotes regular cast pistons. Mine are living at 25 psi. Another member posted over at TD and was running 30+ psi for a couple years on them.

I thought the "H" meant they were hyperutectic...:confused:

puppet
05-30-2006, 09:17 AM
I thought the "H" meant they were hyperutectic...:confused:Could be ... "P" is regular cast.

ShelGame
05-30-2006, 10:38 AM
OK, looking back at my race logs, 2 things I noticed:

1. I ran back-to-back passes a month ago (only 15min cool-down in between), the coolant temp was 210F at the start of the 2nd run, and I noted that the engine felt a little rough at the 2-3 shift (A413 auto). I short-shifted it when I felt the roughness. Temp was near 230F at the end of the run. After a good cool-down, I made one more pass with no issues, but I had a bad start and didn't really push it.

2. The very next pass came 2 weeks ago, and I noted a mis-fire at the 1-2 shift. I made 5 passes that day, and had the same thing happen at the end of the day (hiccup at the 1-2 shift). It also happened twice (out of 5 passes) last Sat. But, not on the run where the piston finally let go.

I wonder if I just ran it too hot 4 weeks ago? The engine does seem to get hotter than expected during a pass. If I start my burnout at 160F, then the temp is ~180F when I get to the line. By the end of the run it's up near 210F. Not what I would consider real hot, but the rise does seem to be a little too much to me.

Also, I eliminated the plumbing to the heater core. I have a water to oil cooler. The cooling water by-passes the radiator for the oil cooler (using the old heater ports on the t-stat/pump housings). So, once the engine is warm, hot water goes through the oil cooler, and then back into the water pump. It never gets to the radiator. Originally, i figured it wouldn't matter on a race-only car, but now I think that may keep the water too hot. And with #4's known cooling issues, that's the main cause of the problem. Although, the temp guage (Auto Meter Pro-Comp) doesn't indicate that the water is too hot. I never even get it hot enough to turn the fan on.

The piston/cylinder/plug definitely do not have a single indication of a lean condition.

Here's what I'm going to do:

1. Replace the piston(s)
2. Check the injector flow rates (I don't think it's the problem, but it'd be good to know for sure). Put the fattest injector on #4 just for insurance.
3. Re-check my ignition timing mark on the convertor and adjust if necessary.
4. Delete the oil cooler. Plug the heater ports on the head/pump and drill a 3/16"(?) hole in the t-stat to allow a little water to bypass. That'll probably save me another 5lbs anyway...

Any additional ideas?

Dave
05-30-2006, 11:39 AM
Yes, they are. But, it's the only piston allowed (well, at the time I bought them).

I know others are running these same pistons at higher boost than I, and not having this problem. At least, not this soon.

I've ran up to 20psi on my near 111,000 mile dead stock pistons. I drive it every day at 18-19psi. I don't think the piston was the problem here. Look elsewhere. Something caused it to break. Detonation does this. You sound like you have good enough fuel, how many psi of fuel are you running with the 20's?

ShelGame
05-30-2006, 11:54 AM
I've ran up to 20psi on my near 111,000 mile dead stock pistons. I drive it every day at 18-19psi. I don't think the piston was the problem here. Look elsewhere. Something caused it to break. Detonation does this. You sound like you have good enough fuel, how many psi of fuel are you running with the 20's?

55psi.

My understanding about the OEm pistons, was that they're non-HyperU cast Mahles. The piston I broke was a HyperU Federal Mogul (Sealed Power).

Does anyone have experience with Ross pistons for our cars? They have a forged, 0% silicon, piston that's now approved. ~$500/set, though...

turbovanmanČ
05-30-2006, 12:12 PM
Gary D and others have run them, Gary had a hand in developing them I believe.

John B
05-30-2006, 12:27 PM
The Ross is an excellent piston. Venolia's are also good and 0 percent silicon.

Ondonti
05-30-2006, 01:19 PM
Um, so your stupid racing class required you to run a non OEM cast piston.........are you saying you could not run stock mahles???

I am going to bet besides your heat problems, on top of that your piston had some hot spots near the exhaust valve, and once your coolant temps got too high your started preigniting. Woot for crap pistons. Just because someone else had success doesnt mean your pistons are great. if it was allowed (and even if it was not), I would lay back the valve reliefs a little bit because that seems like where you got your preignition from. The other problems just allowed the hot spot to form.
I dont think you should be forced to buy 4 sets of pistons just so you can find 4 good pistons in the set. Sometimes these rules just favor people with big money. Reminds me of when I took like 4 sets of pinewood derby cars and picked the 4 wheels/nails that rode the smoothest and put them on 1 car. Thats how you win :P

ShelGame
05-30-2006, 02:05 PM
Um, so your stupid racing class required you to run a non OEM cast piston.........are you saying you could not run stock mahles???

I am going to bet besides your heat problems, on top of that your piston had some hot spots near the exhaust valve, and once your coolant temps got too high your started preigniting. Woot for crap pistons. Just because someone else had success doesnt mean your pistons are great. if it was allowed (and even if it was not), I would lay back the valve reliefs a little bit because that seems like where you got your preignition from. The other problems just allowed the hot spot to form.
I dont think you should be forced to buy 4 sets of pistons just so you can find 4 good pistons in the set. Sometimes these rules just favor people with big money. Reminds me of when I took like 4 sets of pinewood derby cars and picked the 4 wheels/nails that rode the smoothest and put them on 1 car. Thats how you win :P

Well, because it's the OEM piston, I should be able to (theoretically) run the Mahles. But, if I ever got torn down for any reason, I'd have to be able to prove they were the OEM piston. I'm not sure I could do that easily. It would have the have a Mopar P/N on the side that I could cross reference somehow to show it was right for the engine. Even then, they might want to send the piston to HQ for approval. Meaning I'd be out of the race at that point. The Sealed Power pistons have the approved P/N cast into the side of them. So, no worries there.

The Ross pistons are a no-brainer also. But, pricey...

Lee'sdaytona
05-30-2006, 05:23 PM
Reminds me of when I took like 4 sets of pinewood derby cars and picked the 4 wheels/nails that rode the smoothest and put them on 1 car. Thats how you win :P
HAHA!!! OMG, that just brought back memories! I used to do the same thing...and I thought at the time I had an amazing idea that no one thought of before me:nod: :p
I did get first place one year....that was kind of fun
-Lee

ShelGame
06-01-2006, 01:20 PM
OK, found at least a large part of the problem. My ignition timing mark was 8-10 deg advanced. So, My base timing was 20-22 deg, NOT 12 deg.

I'm still going to send out the injectors for cleaning/testing. But, I think the ignition was probably the issue. I had no indications of a lean mixture...

turbovanmanČ
06-01-2006, 01:24 PM
OK, found at least a large part of the problem. My ignition timing mark was 8-10 deg advanced. So, My base timing was 20-22 deg, NOT 12 deg.

I'm still going to send out the injectors for cleaning/testing. But, I think the ignition was probably the issue. I had no indications of a lean mixture...


I would say you found it, that could explain why it was running hot also.

ShelGame
06-01-2006, 02:03 PM
I would say you found it, that could explain why it was running hot also.

Yep.

The big lesson here is that aftermarket 8" convertors don't come with timing marks. Mark it before you put the car together. It's real hard to find actual TDC when you can't get a dial indicator on the engine.

Here's another question - the original (stock) timing mark is at cyl#1 TDC, right? Not 5 deg or something odd like that?

glhs875
06-01-2006, 02:12 PM
Yep.

The big lesson here is that aftermarket 8" convertors don't come with timing marks. Mark it before you put the car together. It's real hard to find actual TDC when you can't get a dial indicator on the engine.

Here's another question - the original (stock) timing mark is at cyl#1 TDC, right? Not 5 deg or something odd like that?

Yes, the original timing is for cylinder #1. I went through the same problem on my 8" converter. The best I can tell (without a dial indicator) is my mark is about 2 degrees retarded. I used a stock converter to mark mine before assembly. I just work around it, it's close enough for now. But I will eventually like to make it dead on. Little stuff like that bothers me! On a side note, I've been wondering if the stock timing tab will be off when checking timing advance with the converter being smaller in diameter?

Directconnection
06-01-2006, 09:31 PM
Yes, they are. But, it's the only piston allowed (well, at the time I bought them).

I know others are running these same pistons at higher boost than I, and not having this problem. At least, not this soon.

A friend had an issue at 23psi with those pistons.

BTW...why didn't you use Mahles for your buildup? Stock piston, so they should have no issue teching them.

cordes
06-01-2006, 10:16 PM
[professor Frink]GLAVIN![/professor Frink]

That is some timing for sure. I am suprised that it held together for as long as it did like that, and that you did not shatter the ring lands into many pieces. Good to know that you have all but identified the problem.

turbovanmanČ
06-01-2006, 10:29 PM
A friend had an issue at 23psi with those pistons.

BTW...why didn't you use Mahles for your buildup? Stock piston, so they should have no issue teching them.

He said the aftermarket has the part number on the piston, the Mahles do not. Either way, Mahles, cast, H or maybe forged might not have lasted much longer with that kind of timing.

ShelGame
06-02-2006, 07:41 AM
I have a set of Ross' on the way. But, I'm not sure if I'll use them in this engine. I'll probably put my spare Sealed Power pistons back in there. I knwo the broe is the right size, I know the piston pins are the right size. Plus, if I have another nuclear met-down, it'll only be a $50 set of pistons I lose. I think I'll send my spare block, crank, rods and the new Ross' to the machine shop and have them build up a complete shortblock for next year...

I'm still sending the injectors out to RC Engineering. I'll post the report results when they come back.

Directconnection
06-02-2006, 12:12 PM
He said the aftermarket has the part number on the piston, the Mahles do not.

I didn't notice him mention anything about Mahles. Mahles are OEM, an not aftermarket, so they should not be an issue with the NHRA.... but I don't know enough about this kind of racing and the rules anyhow:) .

turbovanmanČ
06-02-2006, 12:22 PM
I didn't notice him mention anything about Mahles. Mahles are OEM, an not aftermarket, so they should not be an issue with the NHRA.... but I don't know enough about this kind of racing and the rules anyhow:) .




Well, because it's the OEM piston, I should be able to (theoretically) run the Mahles. But, if I ever got torn down for any reason, I'd have to be able to prove they were the OEM piston. I'm not sure I could do that easily. It would have the have a Mopar P/N on the side that I could cross reference somehow to show it was right for the engine. Even then, they might want to send the piston to HQ for approval. Meaning I'd be out of the race at that point. The Sealed Power pistons have the approved P/N cast into the side of them. So, no worries there.

The Ross pistons are a no-brainer also. But, pricey...


Sometimes, I have a memory, lol! :p

ShelGame
06-19-2006, 09:14 AM
I have a set of Ross' on the way. But, I'm not sure if I'll use them in this engine. I'll probably put my spare Sealed Power pistons back in there. I knwo the broe is the right size, I know the piston pins are the right size. Plus, if I have another nuclear met-down, it'll only be a $50 set of pistons I lose. I think I'll send my spare block, crank, rods and the new Ross' to the machine shop and have them build up a complete shortblock for next year...

I'm still sending the injectors out to RC Engineering. I'll post the report results when they come back.

I got the injectors back last Thurs. Here's the results (for those interested):

Cyl - Before -- After

1 ---- 274 ---- 280
2 ---- 275 ---- 281
3 ---- 247 ---- 280
4 ---- 276 ---- 281

So, Cyl #4 was NOT lean. If anything, it was the richest. Also, these were flowed by RC at 43psi fuel pressure. At 55psi, they should flow ~450cc. So, which is slightly more than advertised (442cc).

I don't think fuel was my problem, just the timing being 10* advanced (22* total base timing).

I had to take ~0.0006" to clean up the #4 cyl (ring gap went from 0.018" to 0.020"). So, not too bad, really. I cleaned the other holes up too, just make them all the same.

I got the car back together last week, and made it out to races this weekend. After 6 passes, it's now running just as fast as before the melt-down (~13.95 @ 97mph), but with the base timing set at 16*.

Lost first round (0.05 red light), but it was still a good weekend, considering all.

Lee'sdaytona
06-19-2006, 09:54 AM
so did you have your block bored out or did you fix it up with a hone job? I have a melted #4 piston as well, and am praying a hone job will get the cylinder back in shape.

ShelGame
06-19-2006, 10:42 AM
so did you have your block bored out or did you fix it up with a hone job? I have a melted #4 piston as well, and am praying a hone job will get the cylinder back in shape.

Nope, just a hone. Did it in the car.

I saw the pictures of your engine, though. Mine wasn't as bad. I did have a little alluminum pick-up on the cylinder wall - I scraped it off with a razor balde and some Scotchbrite before I honed.

turbovanmanČ
06-19-2006, 04:47 PM
Glad to hear you got it all running, :thumb:

GLHNSLHT2
06-19-2006, 04:47 PM
I would of run stock Mahle's before throwing in the Sealed Power pistons. Go with Forged if you can get it.

ShelGame
06-20-2006, 08:45 AM
I would of run stock Mahle's before throwing in the Sealed Power pistons. Go with Forged if you can get it.

I had a set of forged, but re-sold them since they weren't the approved P/N. Plus, my cylinders weren't sized for them.

I'd probably have the same problem with the Mahles. So, for now, I'll stick with the SP pistons. Hopefully they'll last a season or two...

ShelGame
07-28-2006, 02:40 PM
It's deja-vu all over again!

My father-in-law was racing the car this weekend at Columbus. Blew #4 piston out again. Sounds like it's bigger than last time. The funny thing is, I just did a compression check 4 passes ago - 130psi on all 4. I logged my A/F and got a solid 12:1, no sign of knock at all, etc.

Sealed Power pistons suck...

Since we're likely down for the season (I don't think we can just hone #4 again), we may just go Super Stock racing and build a 2.4 NA...

turbovanmanČ
07-28-2006, 03:18 PM
Shitty dude, :(

CSXT802
07-28-2006, 04:28 PM
They fracture like glass. you want a good example. take a hyper-u- junktic piston, and a stock cast pistion. Grab a 2 lb hammer and give them both a couple of good whacks on the edge of the piston crown. when you see happens you will never use hyper-u-junktic piston in a forced induction motor again.

ShelGame
07-28-2006, 10:38 PM
They fracture like glass. you want a good example. take a hyper-u- junktic piston, and a stock cast pistion. Grab a 2 lb hammer and give them both a couple of good whacks on the edge of the piston crown. when you see happens you will never use hyper-u-junktic piston in a forced induction motor again.

I'm already never going to use them again...

turbovanmanČ
07-30-2006, 12:45 AM
Sometimes, you do have to play with the fuel pressure. I have Rob's cal and I have to lower the base pressure by 10 psi or it runs pig rich. Maybe I have the larger flowing +40's?????????

ShelGame
07-30-2006, 06:49 PM
Who knows - probably. It would be tough to tell without flowing them.

The more I think about my problem, though, the more it pisses me off. I shouldn't be having this problem.

I datalogged the car, no signs of knock, A/F ~12:1. What the hell did this? The car must be going lean down the track or it's just getting too hot.

The first time, I found my timing was 10* advanced (ie 22* base timing instead of 12*). Now, it's dead on 14*.

OK, so, the head was originally a TBI head. No crossdrilling. Could be too hot, right? Although, the coolant temp is never above 170.

Also, I think maybe I have a fuel system problem. The outlets on my fuel cell point forward. I think maybe that causes it to lean out on hard accel (although, I didn't see that in the data log - of course, I didn't log every single run). Although, the plugs read slightly rich, so I don't know.

I mean, what the f%^& else could it be? It's obviously getting detonation, but from what?

I'm pulling everything apart and send the dead parts to a friend at Mopar.

Have to send my spare block/rods/crank to the machine shop. With any luck, they can get the bottom end built in a month or so. Luckily, I also have a spare head (this one crossdrilled). So, I will hopefully have the car back together for the fall Indy points meet. We'll see...

Una
07-30-2006, 06:53 PM
If your stuck running crap pistons, can you have them cryo treated at least?

Lugert
07-30-2006, 07:10 PM
Rob,

I did not read the entire thread, but just wondering if you have made the #4 coolant mod yet.

-Bryan

Una
07-30-2006, 07:19 PM
Probably not allowed in his class of racing..

ShelGame
07-31-2006, 07:52 AM
I think the #4 coolant mod is legal, it should be no big deal.

As for the pistons, I can run Ross. I SHOULD be able to run the Mahles, but I'll probably have to get them approved (if they have a Mopar P/N on them it's a no-brainer).

That's not the problem. I have detonation that I can't track down. Sure, the Ross or Mahles might live longer, but detonation is still going to do them in eventually...

Lugert
07-31-2006, 09:38 AM
Rob,

I think you may be surprized with the coolant mod.
The coolant stay stagnent around that cylinder, creates heat and retains the heat which in-turn will lead to detonation.

-Bryan

ShelGame
07-31-2006, 10:09 AM
Rob,

I think you may be surprized with the coolant mod.
The coolant stay stagnent around that cylinder, creates heat and retains the heat which in-turn will lead to detonation.

-Bryan

I'll try it.

But, what happened in cyl #2? That plug has aluminum on the electrode as well. It also had some melting on the crown the first time, as well as scuffing the cylinder wall. Not as bad as #4, but it also has a problem.

#2 and #4 DO share an injector driver, don't they... I wonder if my power board is going bad? What else is common between 2 & 4?

Frank
07-31-2006, 10:32 AM
Disconnect the board and look at the resistance for the 2/4 and 1/3 signals to the positive battery terminal and see whats different. Remember to disconnect one of the battery terminals before doing that. Not so much that it is needed for the test, but if you drop a meter lead and it hits ground, it could blow the fuse in the meter.


Frank

turbovanmanČ
07-31-2006, 12:50 PM
I thought they fired 1+2 and 3+4 together?

I wonder Rob if its just the shitty pistons. I know they need some run time to work harden so maybe thats it, there new so there very soft and beating on them from the get go, they haven't had time to set!

ShelGame
08-04-2006, 09:21 AM
I think I found a fuel pressure problem. Here's a graph of a datalog I took after the 1st rebuild. This was near WOT, really just a test of my datalogger, but it's the only data I have where I looked at fueling and the O2 sensor.

When I hit the throttle, the O2 sensor drops instantly to ~14:1 (from 15+:1) but then takes about a second getting down below 12:1. The PW tracks the MAP sensor, though. So it's not a fuel table problem. The only thing I can think of is fuel pressure dropping on accel...

ShelGame
08-09-2006, 07:40 AM
Wow. This one is much worse than the last one. I shattered #4, #2 looks like someone took a blowtorch to it. Turbine blade tips look like they've been ground on. Luckily, I have a spare turbine section.

Let this be a lesson to you kids - NEVER USE HYPER-U's!

Fuel may have been an issue, but I'm pretty sure the culprit this time was the seized WG arm (!). It was closed tight, and I had to get a pair of channel locks on it to open it up.

I still don't know why this only happens to #2 & 4, though. It has to be related to the non-crossdrilled head. I'll get some pics of the carnage up ASAP.

CSXT802
08-09-2006, 08:54 AM
we need pictures.!!!! (when you get a chance):nod:

overlordsshadow
06-10-2008, 11:44 AM
Making me scared to put hyper u's in again, but with what happened with the forged, can't see how it could be worse, only cheaper to replace:)

ShelGame
06-10-2008, 12:52 PM
I never put forged in. I went with the OEM Mahles. No problems since. Other than the WG puck siezed shut on me again. No blown up pistons, though (knock wood).

turbovanmanČ
06-10-2008, 12:57 PM
Making me scared to put hyper u's in again, but with what happened with the forged, can't see how it could be worse, only cheaper to replace:)

Never use Hyper's in a boosted motor, they shatter like glass, very brittle piston. The stock piston is cast BTW.

CSXT802
06-10-2008, 01:15 PM
Never use Hyper's in a boosted motor, they shatter like glass, very brittle piston. The stock piston is cast BTW.

+1^ he is going to find out the hard way. If he could not get a forged piston to live, the hyper-you-junktic don't have a chance.:yuck:

turbovanmanČ
06-10-2008, 01:19 PM
+1^ he is going to find out the hard way. If he could not get a forged piston to live, the hyper-you-junktic don't have a chance.:yuck:

No kidding, I don't know how he did it, I've melted cylinder heads but never a piston? :confused:

gasketmaster
06-10-2008, 01:21 PM
Wow. This one is much worse than the last one. I shattered #4, #2 looks like someone took a blowtorch to it. Turbine blade tips look like they've been ground on. Luckily, I have a spare turbine section.

Let this be a lesson to you kids - NEVER USE HYPER-U's!

Fuel may have been an issue, but I'm pretty sure the culprit this time was the seized WG arm (!). It was closed tight, and I had to get a pair of channel locks on it to open it up.

I still don't know why this only happens to #2 & 4, though. It has to be related to the non-crossdrilled head. I'll get some pics of the carnage up ASAP.

Hey Rob :)

Here's some basic info:

My NHRA minivan ran 22psi with stock pistons, stock injectors, a 195 ltr Walbro in-tank pump from a Mustang, no coolant mod, VP C-10 unleaded, Autolite 63 plugs, heater core bypass hose running from the bottom of the thermostat area to the waterpump, Gary's two bar cal for stock injectors, Timing at 12*, O2 volts in the .88~.90 range at WOT and 0 knock in all cylinders. Required fuel pressure was @52~53psi static. I never had a single engine failure...so I gotta figure that you've got some kind of problem going on with your fueling. Your problem sounds heat related more than detonation related which points to running lean to me :)

I've also ran my fast van at 35 psi on stock pistons with a non-crossdrilled G head and no #4 cooling mod without any issues so I'm not sure that the non-crossdrilled head is your problem either ;)

Sometimes you can use fuel for extra cylinder cooling by running a bit richer.......I wonder if 12 to 1 AF is too lean for a non-intercooled engine given that the inlet air temp is scarey to begin with....just thinking out loud :)

I hope you get it figured out soon......I'm sure you will :thumb:

turbovanmanČ
06-10-2008, 01:22 PM
Terry, this thread is 2 years old, :o

gasketmaster
06-10-2008, 01:23 PM
I never put forged in. I went with the OEM Mahles. No problems since. Other than the WG puck siezed shut on me again. No blown up pistons, though (knock wood).

So did you send them in to get them approved or??? :)

gasketmaster
06-10-2008, 01:23 PM
Terry, this thread is 2 years old, :o

My bad :thumb:

overlordsshadow
06-10-2008, 01:28 PM
HAHAHA.

I'm willing to give them another shot. The one that I did have fail on my had a bubble in the casting. These won't be in there long anyway (wood knock). I want to get this thing driving and do as much testing and logging as I can. Then when I know the injectors and cal and such are all playing nice and it's safe, I'll pop some more forgeds in this winter:)

ShelGame
06-10-2008, 02:08 PM
Hey Rob :)

Here's some basic info:

My NHRA minivan ran 22psi with stock pistons, stock injectors, a 195 ltr Walbro in-tank pump from a Mustang, no coolant mod, VP C-10 unleaded, Autolite 63 plugs, heater core bypass hose running from the bottom of the thermostat area to the waterpump, Gary's two bar cal for stock injectors, Timing at 12*, O2 volts in the .88~.90 range at WOT and 0 knock in all cylinders. Required fuel pressure was @52~53psi static. I never had a single engine failure...so I gotta figure that you've got some kind of problem going on with your fueling. Your problem sounds heat related more than detonation related which points to running lean to me :)

I've also ran my fast van at 35 psi on stock pistons with a non-crossdrilled G head and no #4 cooling mod without any issues so I'm not sure that the non-crossdrilled head is your problem either ;)

Sometimes you can use fuel for extra cylinder cooling by running a bit richer.......I wonder if 12 to 1 AF is too lean for a non-intercooled engine given that the inlet air temp is scarey to begin with....just thinking out loud :)

I hope you get it figured out soon......I'm sure you will :thumb:

It definitely was fuelling. I didn't want to add anymore fuel line to the car than I had to, so I plumbed the fuel cell with the outlets pointing forward (1st mistake), then I put the fuel pump under the car (2nd mistake), ~2-3" higher than the outlet from the fuel cell (3rd mistake). The pump inlet was starving for fuel on accel if the fuel cell was any less than 100% full. I comletely re-plumbed the fuel system (added probably 10lbs of fuel lines to the car in the process :( ) and moved the pump to 6" away from the cell inlet, and lower than the cell. No problems since.

FWIW, I've seen 24psi (when the WG seized last fall) and still have 120psi+ on all cylinders. Heck, I even managed to somehow break the ceramic off a plug, which then bounced around in cyl #1 for a while and it still have 120psi+ on #1. I'm running +20's on a 3-bar cal.

Oh, and the pistons I blew up were not stock. They were the Federal Mogul approved piston (POS).

ShelGame
06-10-2008, 02:09 PM
So did you send them in to get them approved or??? :)

From what I understand, Jim Wahl had the Mahles teched and judged as OK, since they are the OEM piston. They don't show up on the approved piston list, though. Not sure how they tech a completely stock engine that way...

Captain Chaos
06-10-2008, 05:16 PM
From what I understand, Jim Wahl had the Mahles teched and judged as OK, since they are the OEM piston. They don't show up on the approved piston list, though. Not sure how they tech a completely stock engine that way...

I sent an email to Jim Wahl with this link. Hopefully he'll respond.:thumb:

Dodgepilot
06-10-2008, 07:40 PM
The Mahle (OEM) piston is OK with NHRA. I have been torn down with them many, many times and had no problems in tech. The reason they do not appear on the NHRA accepted list is they are stock OEM pistons and the list is ment for aftermarket accepted pistons. If I could offer a little advise it would be not to waste your time or money on any piston other than the stock Mahle or the forged Ross. The Mahle is with out a doubt the best cast piston but the Ross is forged and is on the accepted list. The Ross costs over $500 a set and you must be careful with the clearances in the turbo motor. I ran the Mahle cast piston for several years but you can get in trouble with engine temperature issues with them. The engine must be run around 170 max and have plenty of fuel. The Ross pistons need more clearance but can be run a little hotter. Being as they are a forged piston the Ross pistons are a little more forgiving if your A/F ratio isn't quite perfect. Richer is always better with either piston.

Jim Wahl
NHRA #2239
AF/S Neon SRT4
BF/S Dodge Spirit ES

gasketmaster
06-10-2008, 07:47 PM
The Mahle (OEM) piston is OK with NHRA. I have been torn down with them many, many times and had no problems in tech. The reason they do not appear on the NHRA accepted list is they are stock OEM pistons and the list is ment for aftermarket accepted pistons. If I could offer a little advise it would be not to waste your time or money on any piston other than the stock Mahle or the forged Ross. The Mahle is with out a doubt the best cast piston but the Ross is forged and is on the accepted list. The Ross costs over $500 a set and you must be careful with the clearances in the turbo motor. I ran the Mahle cast piston for several years but you can get in trouble with engine temperature issues with them. The engine must be run around 170 max and have plenty of fuel. The Ross pistons need more clearance but can be run a little hotter. Being as they are a forged piston the Ross pistons are a little more forgiving if your A/F ratio isn't quite perfect. Richer is always better with either piston.

Jim Wahl
NHRA #2239
AF/S Neon SRT4
BF/S Dodge Spirit ES

Good info......Thanks Jim :thumb:

I just got the Mahle pistons for my Sundance Stocker project ;)

gasketmaster
06-10-2008, 07:50 PM
It definitely was fuelling. I didn't want to add anymore fuel line to the car than I had to, so I plumbed the fuel cell with the outlets pointing forward (1st mistake), then I put the fuel pump under the car (2nd mistake), ~2-3" higher than the outlet from the fuel cell (3rd mistake). The pump inlet was starving for fuel on accel if the fuel cell was any less than 100% full. I comletely re-plumbed the fuel system (added probably 10lbs of fuel lines to the car in the process :( ) and moved the pump to 6" away from the cell inlet, and lower than the cell. No problems since.

FWIW, I've seen 24psi (when the WG seized last fall) and still have 120psi+ on all cylinders. Heck, I even managed to somehow break the ceramic off a plug, which then bounced around in cyl #1 for a while and it still have 120psi+ on #1. I'm running +20's on a 3-bar cal.

Oh, and the pistons I blew up were not stock. They were the Federal Mogul approved piston (POS).

Sounds like you got it all fixed up......Sweet :thumb:

Captain Chaos
06-10-2008, 08:04 PM
The Mahle (OEM) piston is OK with NHRA. I have been torn down with them many, many times and had no problems in tech. The reason they do not appear on the NHRA accepted list is they are stock OEM pistons and the list is ment for aftermarket accepted pistons. If I could offer a little advise it would be not to waste your time or money on any piston other than the stock Mahle or the forged Ross. The Mahle is with out a doubt the best cast piston but the Ross is forged and is on the accepted list. The Ross costs over $500 a set and you must be careful with the clearances in the turbo motor. I ran the Mahle cast piston for several years but you can get in trouble with engine temperature issues with them. The engine must be run around 170 max and have plenty of fuel. The Ross pistons need more clearance but can be run a little hotter. Being as they are a forged piston the Ross pistons are a little more forgiving if your A/F ratio isn't quite perfect. Richer is always better with either piston.

Jim Wahl
NHRA #2239
AF/S Neon SRT4
BF/S Dodge Spirit ES

Thanks man, I knew you could clear it up. :thumb:

ShelGame
06-10-2008, 09:28 PM
Good info......Thanks Jim :thumb:

I just got the Mahle pistons for my Sundance Stocker project ;)

Aww crap! Not another A-car to compete against! At least you're well out of my division. I really only have to worry about Chuck Blossom showing up when I run for class.

You going to get it done to race this season?

Dodgepilot
06-10-2008, 09:38 PM
It's done. Ran it at Lakeland last month. I've been testing it for a year. It's not quite as fast as Blossoms but it's getting there. My son will probably be running it this year.

gasketmaster
06-10-2008, 09:55 PM
Aww crap! Not another A-car to compete against! At least you're well out of my division. I really only have to worry about Chuck Blossom showing up when I run for class.

You going to get it done to race this season?

I'd like to run it at the National Open race at PIR in August :thumb:

It will be the first NHRA event at PIR since the noise restrictions were placed on the facility back in 1986 :(

BTW- It's a different car than my son's 90 Sundance. His is a 2 dr 5-speed and the Stocker is a 4 door automatic. They ARE both red with silver around the bottom though :)

Are you running in A or B now?

ShelGame
06-10-2008, 10:23 PM
It's done. Ran it at Lakeland last month. I've been testing it for a year. It's not quite as fast as Blossoms but it's getting there. My son will probably be running it this year.

You got an SRT-4, too, Jim?

Actually, I just finisehd putting a Spirit R/T back together. I sold it to my father-in-law. Chances are really good that he'll race it at least once this summer. He never can keep his Super Stock '74 Dart together all season (not 'cause it breaks - he apparently just likes changing stuff all the time). After driving it for a week, I'm pretty sure it can hang with an SRT-4 in A/FS :).

Tony Hanna
06-10-2008, 10:34 PM
For what it's worth, the only Sealed Power pistons that are available for a 2.5 are hyperutectic but you can get cast non-hyperutectic Sealed Power pistons for the 2.2. Kind of weird... I found this out when I was rebuilding the 2.2 in my old Daytona. I ran the cast SP pistons to 28 psi or so with no problems. I did have the benefit of methanol injection though.

Dodgepilot
06-10-2008, 11:46 PM
I love those Sirit R/Ts! Yes I have an SRT4. As I said it's not quite as fast as Blossoms but real close. Chuck and I have a gentleman's agreement. No more 1.40 under stuff!

turbovanmanČ
06-11-2008, 04:05 AM
I'd like to run it at the National Open race at PIR in August :thumb:



Tell me more? ;)

ShelGame
06-11-2008, 07:21 AM
Are you running in A or B now?

Running A/FS right now - >450lbs over min weight! There's no way I can get the Daytona down to minimum (~2400lbs). I think I can get it down to maybe 2800lbs, though. The race wheels I have going on now will help, and I have some ballast I can remove (on the passenger side - I'm using it just to balance out the battery to try and reduce the peg leg burnouts).

I suppose I could gut the car, remove all of the unecessary wiring and sound deadening. That might get me another 50lbs or so. That's a whole lot of work, though.

Right now, I'm not even running .50 under in NHRA A/FS. The IHRA index is softer (14.65 vs. 14.15), so no problems there.

cordes
06-11-2008, 01:01 PM
For what it's worth, the only Sealed Power pistons that are available for a 2.5 are hyperutectic but you can get cast non-hyperutectic Sealed Power pistons for the 2.2. Kind of weird... I found this out when I was rebuilding the 2.2 in my old Daytona. I ran the cast SP pistons to 28 psi or so with no problems. I did have the benefit of methanol injection though.


You can't get the SP pistons for the 2.2 with the grooves machined in them for the keepers anymore though. I was told that I purchased the last set of four that they made. It took a lot of work to get that mess all sorted out, but it worked out in the end.

overlordsshadow
06-11-2008, 01:11 PM
The 8 2.5L pistons that I bought were apparently some of the last OEM type pistons also. Plenty of dust on those boxes that for sure, and shipped in from the states.

Couldn't get cast for the 2.5 only the hyper.

1984rampage
06-11-2008, 01:34 PM
For what it's worth, the only Sealed Power pistons that are available for a 2.5 are hyperutectic but you can get cast non-hyperutectic Sealed Power pistons for the 2.2. Kind of weird... I found this out when I was rebuilding the 2.2 in my old Daytona. I ran the cast SP pistons to 28 psi or so with no problems. I did have the benefit of methanol injection though.

Thanks for this info. Im pretty sure thats why I just melted my engine at a mere intercooled 15 psi and no audible knock. Stupid shitty hyperteuctic pistons.

gasketmaster
06-11-2008, 03:30 PM
Tell me more? ;)

The first NHRA event since 1986 at PIR will be August 22-23-24 :thumb:

They finally got the noise waiver required to have a car go down the track without mufflers :clap:

I'm building a 1989 Plymouth Sundance T-1 with my Foster Care boys for Stock Eliminator racing :)

The engine is being machined and trans is currently being built.....I hope we can screw it together and shake it down before the race in August :eyebrows:

gasketmaster
06-11-2008, 03:32 PM
Running A/FS right now - >450lbs over min weight! There's no way I can get the Daytona down to minimum (~2400lbs). I think I can get it down to maybe 2800lbs, though. The race wheels I have going on now will help, and I have some ballast I can remove (on the passenger side - I'm using it just to balance out the battery to try and reduce the peg leg burnouts).

I suppose I could gut the car, remove all of the unecessary wiring and sound deadening. That might get me another 50lbs or so. That's a whole lot of work, though.

Right now, I'm not even running .50 under in NHRA A/FS. The IHRA index is softer (14.65 vs. 14.15), so no problems there.

So why are you running A instead of B?

Just curious.......afraid of running to far under or ???

turbovanmanČ
06-11-2008, 05:28 PM
The first NHRA event since 1986 at PIR will be August 22-23-24 :thumb:

They finally got the noise waiver required to have a car go down the track without mufflers :clap:

I'm building a 1989 Plymouth Sundance T-1 with my Foster Care boys for Stock Eliminator racing :)

The engine is being machined and trans is currently being built.....I hope we can screw it together and shake it down before the race in August :eyebrows:

I mean, what are the requirements to race? :eyebrows:

John B
06-11-2008, 05:38 PM
I still don't know why this only happens to #2 & 4, though. It has to be related to the non-crossdrilled head. I'll get some pics of the carnage up ASAP.


Do you have the #4 coolant mod done?

ShelGame
06-11-2008, 05:47 PM
So why are you running A instead of B?

Just curious.......afraid of running to far under or ???

Well, it's a natural A car now (my own fault). And, yes, it will run pretty far under in B. It's at B weight now, running 13.87's. On a 14.95 index in B, that's a little too fast. I figured out that the car is more consistent at higher boost, rather than lower (figured out why, too). So, I can't easily dial the car in B at, say 15psi; comapred to dialing it in A at 18psi. Just need to get another couple tenths for A. Hmm, maybe I need to run 19psi...

1984rampage
06-11-2008, 11:09 PM
I know this may be retarded but do you competatively drag race?

gasketmaster
06-12-2008, 01:12 AM
I mean, what are the requirements to race? :eyebrows:

You need to have a NHRA Class race car like Stock, Super Stock, ect. :)

The rules for those classes are in the NHRA rule book ;)

Captain Chaos
06-12-2008, 07:25 AM
You need to have a NHRA Class race car like Stock, Super Stock, ect. :)

The rules for those classes are in the NHRA rule book ;)

And a turbo caravan with a T-III engine ain't stock. Although you may be able to find a super stock class to run.:thumb:

Captain Chaos
06-12-2008, 07:26 AM
I know this may be retarded but do you competatively drag race?

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=141&dateline=11945267 88

2.5 T1 Auto
13.932@97.15
NHRA #3628 BF/S
IHRA #3628 BF/S
IHRA #362 SS/EC
All signs say yes.:thumb:

ShelGame
06-12-2008, 07:59 AM
And a turbo caravan with a T-III engine ain't stock. Although you may be able to find a super stock class to run.:thumb:

I've looked. There's only 1 legal SS class for turbo engines in NHRA. And, you'd be competeing against 8 sec Buick GN's.

I have run my Daytona in IHRA SS/EC before. There's no restriction there about the car being boosted. But, it does have to be the OEM engine - no swaps allowed.

Captain Chaos
06-12-2008, 09:04 AM
I've looked. There's only 1 legal SS class for turbo engines in NHRA. And, you'd be competeing against 8 sec Buick GN's.

I have run my Daytona in IHRA SS/EC before. There's no restriction there about the car being boosted. But, it does have to be the OEM engine - no swaps allowed.

What ss class is Kish and Leong running in with their Neons?

ShelGame
06-12-2008, 09:50 AM
SS/GS, but they are NA. Kish's is a 2.0 and Art's is a 2.4.

The GN is in SS/DX. It's an interesting class, actually. It's a weight/cu in class. So, a 2.2 or 2.5 Charger or such could actually do well, but it would oviously have to be fully built.

Here's a link to a story about the fastest ever SS car - an SS/DX GN - http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4078/is_/ai_n9237275

mario03SRT
06-12-2008, 10:08 AM
Running A/FS right now - >450lbs over min weight! There's no way I can get the Daytona down to minimum (~2400lbs). I think I can get it down to maybe 2800lbs, though. The race wheels I have going on now will help, and I have some ballast I can remove (on the passenger side - I'm using it just to balance out the battery to try and reduce the peg leg burnouts).

I suppose I could gut the car, remove all of the unecessary wiring and sound deadening. That might get me another 50lbs or so. That's a whole lot of work, though.

Right now, I'm not even running .50 under in NHRA A/FS. The IHRA index is softer (14.65 vs. 14.15), so no problems there.

Hole saw, air chisle..................:lol:

Strip the pass door except the glass, Front/Rear bump supports, wipers, headliner, head lights, tail lights cept a small red one, 1 Jaz Seat, etc, but i'm sure you know what needs to be done.

ShelGame
06-12-2008, 10:39 AM
Hole saw, air chisle..................:lol:

Strip the pass door except the glass, Front/Rear bump supports, wipers, headliner, head lights, tail lights cept a small red one, 1 Jaz Seat, etc, but i'm sure you know what needs to be done.

None of that is legal is NHRA/IHRA stock, sadly.

Well, actually, deleteing the wipers is leagal (and already done)...

88_pacifica
06-12-2008, 10:51 AM
Did I hear the acronym... GN.... pop up?? ;) :nod:

Tony Hanna
06-12-2008, 02:17 PM
You can't get the SP pistons for the 2.2 with the grooves machined in them for the keepers anymore though. I was told that I purchased the last set of four that they made. It took a lot of work to get that mess all sorted out, but it worked out in the end.

That's the pistons I used along with a set of rods out of a 2.5 so I could have a floating pin setup. How long ago did they quit making them?


Thanks for this info. Im pretty sure thats why I just melted my engine at a mere intercooled 15 psi and no audible knock. Stupid shitty hyperteuctic pistons.

Well, at least the stock Mahles are still available new at a reasonable price. I might go with a set of forged when I completely rebuild an engine one of these days but until then, the stock cast pistons (and cast SP's) have treated me pretty good (knocks on wood).
Tony

turbovanmanČ
06-12-2008, 03:12 PM
Well, at least the stock Mahles are still available new at a reasonable price. I might go with a set of forged when I completely rebuild an engine one of these days but until then, the stock cast pistons (and cast SP's) have treated me pretty good (knocks on wood).
Tony


I thought we were told that Dodge isn't making the Mahles anymore, so its either the aftermarket cast or forged.


You need to have a NHRA Class race car like Stock, Super Stock, ect. :)

The rules for those classes are in the NHRA rule book ;)

Hmmm, It sounds like alot of fun, wonder if theres any bracket racing? I'd get smoked running best et, obviously.




For what it's worth, the only Sealed Power pistons that are available for a 2.5 are hyperutectic but you can get cast non-hyperutectic Sealed Power pistons for the 2.2. Kind of weird... I found this out when I was rebuilding the 2.2 in my old Daytona. I ran the cast SP pistons to 28 psi or so with no problems. I did have the benefit of methanol injection though.


I can and have got cast aftermarket, so they are available.

88_pacifica
06-12-2008, 03:16 PM
I thought we were told that Dodge isn't making the Mahles anymore, so its either the aftermarket cast or forged.

correct... and the 2.5's oversized are almost out too. I KNOW they don't make .020's anymore for a fact and none are avail either... :(

Tony Hanna
06-12-2008, 03:21 PM
Didn't know that. Saw the stockers still for sale on FWDP and thought they were still being produced.

turbovanmanČ
06-12-2008, 03:36 PM
Didn't know that. Saw the stockers still for sale on FWDP and thought they were still being produced.


NOS, when there gone, there gone, :(

Tony Hanna
06-12-2008, 03:43 PM
NOS, when there gone, there gone, :(

That sucks.:(
So what's the deal on the ones you can get? Brand and pricing...:)

turbovanmanČ
06-12-2008, 03:47 PM
That sucks.:(
So what's the deal on the ones you can get? Brand and pricing...:)

What engine and I'll check.

ShelGame
06-12-2008, 04:42 PM
I thought you could still get the Mahles direct from Mahle? I know my builder got me a set of 0.040" over direct from Mahle last year when I rebuilt the engine. They are in fact the Chrysler pistons - you can see where Mahle ground off the Chrysler P/N...

turbovanmanČ
06-12-2008, 04:43 PM
I thought you could still get the Mahles direct from Mahle? I know my builder got me a set of 0.040" over direct from Mahle last year when I rebuilt the engine. They are in fact the Chrysler pistons - you can see where Mahle ground off the Chrysler P/N...

That could be, maybe Dodge isn't selling them but Mahle still makes them. Quick, someone call, ;)

Tony Hanna
06-12-2008, 05:03 PM
What engine and I'll check.

'89 2.5

cordes
06-12-2008, 09:40 PM
That's the pistons I used along with a set of rods out of a 2.5 so I could have a floating pin setup. How long ago did they quit making them?

I purchased the last set of four last summer. It took some time, and there are a couple of customer service guys from Summit that will be very sorry if I ever run into them. They likewise lost my business for ever with that transaction. The guys at Federal Mogul were awesome though.