Air/Fuel gauges

[83Shelby]

This may sound ignorant,but what exactly is the difference between a regular a/f and wideband a/f gauge?

[minigts]

I think the narrow band will only measure values within a certain range, like 13-14. It's like stretching values for 13-14 (for example) around the entire gauge. So if you go outside the range, it will just sit at one side or the other until it falls back within the gauge range. That's why when you use a narrow band gauge, it will typically peg to rich or lean pretty quick at WOT or no throttle, whereas a wide band has more values to report at WOT and no throttle. That is how I understand it.

I guess to add, say you are running 13.1 and the gauge can measure that, anything below 13.0 it cannot so the gauge will just light up the last rich indicator until you get above that value.

[turbovanman²]

Narrow band use's the cars factory oxygen sensor and only reads at WOT-for 99% of the population, this is a very safe way of monitoring AF at WOT. Now if you start tweaking the calibration on your own or want more piece of mind, then you get a wideband, that use's its own sensor and reads AF from 9:1 which is pig rich to 20:1 which is pig lean and inbetween. Years ago, WB's were stupid expensive so not many owned one but now, you can get kit's for under $200 and the sensors are now around $70 to replace. Hope this helps.

[Aries_Turbo]

narrowband range

http://www.stealth316.com/images/o2sensor-output.gif

wideband range

http://www.wbo2.com/2a0/afrlin.gif

wideband is far more accurate than a narrowband gauge.

brian

[tsiconquest88]

^ well that obvious brian haha ;)

[Aries_Turbo]

^ well that obvious brian haha ;)

i was just trying to head simon off at the pass when he says something about his Dawes being "bang on" ;)

brian

[turbovanman²]

i was just trying to head simon off at the pass when he says something about his Dawes being "bang on" ;)

brian

Because it is, ;)

Yellow is safe, not sure what more you want it to say? :confused:

[GLHNSLHT2]

Narrow band use's the cars factory oxygen sensor and only reads at WOT-for 99% of the population,

BZZT! Wrong. Factory Narrowband ONLY READS AT STOICH!


this is a very safe way of monitoring AF at WOT.

BZZT AGAIN! It's a very dangerous way of monitoring a/f as you really have ZERO clue to what a/f you really have. Do you have a safe 11-12:1 ratio or a dangerous 13.5-14:1 a/f ratio?? You don't know.


Now if you start tweaking the calibration on your own or want more piece of mind, then you get a wideband, that use's its own sensor and reads AF from 9:1 which is pig rich to 20:1 which is pig lean and inbetween. Years ago, WB's were stupid expensive so not many owned one but now, you can get kit's for under $200 and the sensors are now around $70 to replace. Hope this helps.

You want to know if you're in the safe 11-12:1 zone at WOT and a Wideband is the only way you can do it.

[tsiconquest88]

ohhhh boy, one extreme to the other lol.

[83Shelby]

Dude........I'm pretty sure I'm more confused than before I asked.So unless I start changing cals,a narrow band should be alright? I've got an 88 CSX-T with a 2.5 out of an 89 Daytona Shelby.I wanted to change the Mitsu to a Garrett T2,with the swingvalve and using an intercooler out of a Conquest.What do you guys think?

[tsiconquest88]

i used an Ic from one of my starquests on my mini, so yea i say go for it lol. As for the rest idk haha. if your going that extent with the rest i would say go with the WB setup. Narrowband is adequent for stock with some minor upgrades like raising boost a little when upgrading the fuel pump/reg, etc. But going your route might as well go WB.... IMO

[GLHNSLHT2]

Yo didn't tell us your setup. You just asked what the difference is. Which Aries tried to do but one of his charts is missing. And I corrected simon's post.

A gauge to read your narrowband stock sensor really only tells you if the sensor is working properly or not by switching quickly at stoich. If it's lazy then the sensor is on it's way out. It should bounce like this.
http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo/turbo_o2_bounce.gif

See how all it's telling you is if you're switching around stoich? You have no idea where you are. The Dawes doesn't even tell you that. It just tells you if you're richer than 13.5:1 Here's the graph Aries needed in his post for the narrowband.
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2004/10/Innovate/images/graphNarrowBand.gif

The only time you have even the slightest clue as to the a/f is between 14:1 and 15:1. other than that the senor just outputs almost a straight voltage. Oh, and EGT will move that curve up and down in the Y plane too. Here's a good read on how everything works.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/news3.php

[83Shelby]

Thanks everybody,it's becoming more clear now.I'm just trying to avoid hearing things go BANG under the hood!

[Aries_Turbo]

Here's the graph Aries needed in his post for the narrowband.
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2004/10/Innovate/images/graphNarrowBand.gif

well thats wierd. the image was working fine when i posted it up yesterday.

Brian

[GLHNSLHT2]

well when I looked yesterday it wasn't there I was just too lazy to say or do anything.

[GLHNSLHT2]

I like this one showing how EGT which affects sensor temp changes the narrowband output.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/images/n32.jpg

[tsiconquest88]

to add to this all, this might kind of throw some confusion in the mix but here is a gauge for narrowband but gives numbered details.... so this must be accurate i would think? its setup like a WB gauge...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370327862450&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

[83Shelby]

Yeah.............it did!:nod:

[tsiconquest88]

is that resonse to what i just asked? or something else? confused cus ur response doesnt help me at all with the link and my question haha.

[GLHNSLHT2]

The problem is not the gauge. It's the sensor itself. Just look at the graphs and read the article I posted. The guage might be accurate to state a certain a/f at a certain voltage. But the voltage changes with a/f or just puts out a certain flat voltage reading above a certain a/f ratio.

[83Shelby]

is that resonse to what i just asked? or something else? confused cus ur response doesnt help me at all with the link and my question haha.

It does confuse me,but I'm startin to understand that the narrow kinda works accurately until EGT's go up........right?

[boost geek]

Save some money and buy a wideband. If I were to do it again, I would buy a JAW, cheap and datalog capable...

http://www.14point7.com/Widebands/JAW_1_041/JAW_1_041.htm

[tsiconquest88]

nice from what it looks u can get a whole WB kit for 100? looks like 75 then 25 gets u other needed stuff further down the page right? not a bad price all either way!!!

BTW i wasnt tryin to confused with that link, as i said is that guage any good? Cus i dont get how they could convert narrowband into percentage display numbers if narrowband only sees what u guys are explaining above.

[Aries_Turbo]

It does confuse me,but I'm startin to understand that the narrow kinda works accurately until EGT's go up........right?

its only accurate as a rich/lean switch.

if you want REAL accuracy, get a wideband.

Brian

[tsiconquest88]

yea of course but im asking does anyone know how that gauge i linked to can be accurate? how does it show percentages numbers if its narrowband? i didnt think you could bring a narrowband gauge from bar colors to percentages and be accurate.

[cordes]

yea of course but im asking does anyone know how that gauge i linked to can be accurate? how does it show percentages numbers if its narrowband? i didnt think you could bring a narrowband gauge from bar colors to percentages and be accurate.

A narrow band sensor doesn't have the resolution to read accurately period. You can try to extrapolate, but it isn't going to happen in a reliable way.

[tsiconquest88]

yea i just like to know how they even made the gauge show percentages and talk it up like its thie reliable non engine blowing POS lol.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Save some money and buy a wideband. If I were to do it again, I would buy a JAW, cheap and datalog capable...

http://www.14point7.com/Widebands/JAW_1_041/JAW_1_041.htm

There's 2 or 3 threads on here and other forums saying the jaw isn't accurate either. The innovate is cheap enough at less than $190 for the controller and guage, and the best thing about it is it's expandibility along with it's accuracy. Here's a good test of a bunch of widebands. http://tunertools.com/articles/FordMuscle.pdf

[Aries_Turbo]

they must have programmed a narrowband curve into it to try to get an approximation of a wideband device.

or they are like the guys selling LED exhaust tips. they dont care if its really accurate. they know that a digital readout will entice those with a small budget. the depiction of wideband accuracy from a narrowband sensor (even if its totally false) will make them sell many many units.

its like those silly "water for gas" kits.... they arent really effective but they sell zillions.

brian

[tsiconquest88]

lol i get ya

[tsiconquest88]

as per the link, apparently innovate is the best. Why does that seem far fetched though, i mean they make all the others seem useless.

[cordes]

as per the link, apparently innovate is the best. Why does that seem far fetched though, i mean they make all the others seem useless.

IIRC some of the other companies deputed that article (why wouldn't they?). That being said, you should look at the tech edge stuff too. They are very nice and the price is hard to beat IMO. That will be the next unit I purchase.

[boost geek]

Is it possible to datalog with an AEM UEGO if you add some kind of component to it?

[GLHNSLHT2]

you can only datalog a/f with the Uego IIRC

[turbovanman²]

BZZT! Wrong. Factory Narrowband ONLY READS AT STOICH!


BZZZZZZZZZZZT-wrong, a nb reads around more than stoich, I am surprised even you got that wrong, :confused:

In case you forgot, stoich is 14.7-1, a nb reads above and below that, but you knew that, durrrrrrrrrr.




BZZT AGAIN! It's a very dangerous way of monitoring a/f as you really have ZERO clue to what a/f you really have. Do you have a safe 11-12:1 ratio or a dangerous 13.5-14:1 a/f ratio?? You don't know.



You want to know if you're in the safe 11-12:1 zone at WOT and a Wideband is the only way you can do it.

Wrong again, as I've said before, I guess you can go after the 1000's of racers and car guys that used NB gauges for decades until widebands became cheap. Did you forget that widebands can be wrong too, just like nb's, the sensor can go bad and you don't notice.


The problem is not the gauge. It's the sensor itself. Just look at the graphs and read the article I posted. The guage might be accurate to state a certain a/f at a certain voltage. But the voltage changes with a/f or just puts out a certain flat voltage reading above a certain a/f ratio.

Again, I guess 1000's of users over the years are wrong?????????? :confused::confused: Again, for the millionth time, whether my EGT's were high or low or where ever, and the stock oxygen sensor is working, the Dawes reading off that was and still is reading around 11.5:1 at WOT.

So you do what you want and preach people to spend money they don't and I'll do the same with an NB gauge. I dare you to find me someone who melted a motor with a properly working NB sensor and gauge, if they paid attention to it and had no other issues. Oh, do I hear crickets?

[Aries_Turbo]

simon, what the hell do you care. you have a wideband. untwist your panties please. :)

TONS of people popped motors when the narrowband said everything was just fine.

i dont how much you know about electrical engineering but when the tolerance of the signal is .10 volt between the lights lighting up on a dawes and the ERROR based on differences in EGT is .10 of a volt across the EGT range that we run at (1000-1350F....after the turbo) it is not an accurate system. say you had 1000F temps after the turbo where the nb o2 is, the signal will be .10v higher (aka the difference from red to yellow or yellow to green) than if the egt's after the turbo were 1350. thats not accurate at all.

you always run too much timing, keeping the EGT's down somewhat. that makes the signal higher. you can say "the dawes was perfect" and then pop your motor with too much timing advance.

take your van, run the same AF on the wideband and then start retarding timing. the dawes will change at least one color or flicker between two.

they may have been used by 1000's of racers in the past. this is now. the wideband is far superior in every way, especially with datalogging and accuracy.

Brian