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turbovanmanČ
05-29-2006, 02:19 PM
Ok, conicals aren't cutting it for high boost, after a big discussion with the mods, we came up with there probably costing my HP, seat pressure is 60 lbs vs stock at 105, open is 170 vs stock at 160. Sooooooooooo, what to use boys and girls. Mp lists 3 sets,
P4286813- wire diam .186"
P4876061- wire diam .191" this is the S60 spring.
P3412068- wire diam .191" dual damper.

The last 2 need special retainers????????????

Anyhow, are these any good or what other options?? I also notice the Slant six and 3.9 V6 use the same valve spring so that means probably the Magnum V8 springs might work!

Ok, lucky me, I remembered I had some MP 318 valve springs, dual damper. There 120 seat and 240 open. There good to over .500" which is good as the stockers are almost at coil bind at my S2 lift of .469

They also list retainers, chome moly which I assume are stock, then the aluminium ones and of course, titanium. Is it worth it to get the last 2? now I don't have to buy springs, I can use the money for those. The al ones are $16 each and the titan are $26 each?

Whorse
05-29-2006, 03:09 PM
I think you answered your own question.

turbovanmanČ
06-01-2006, 12:36 PM
Bump on the retainers, stock or chromemoly or are they one and the same?
Does anyone know if they are different, if the chrome weigh less?

Frank
06-01-2006, 02:16 PM
Whats the cost difference?

turbovanmanČ
06-01-2006, 02:47 PM
Well, the stockers are free, the chromies are $12 each and the titaniums are $30 each, :eek:

Clay
06-01-2006, 04:03 PM
I thought you were going with the 302 springs???

ssheen
06-01-2006, 05:23 PM
Why do you think they are costing you HP?

turbovanmanČ
06-01-2006, 05:45 PM
I thought you were going with the 302 springs???

No, I am using the 318 MP springs. Just need an opinion on the retainers, :thumb:



Why do you think they are costing you HP?

The experts have told me that the spring pressure is way to low, the boost is forcing the valves open, this is costing me power. Stockers are around 105 closed and the conicals are 60 psi so thats a big difference.

ssheen
06-01-2006, 07:08 PM
ah, I understand the idea. Not too sure I see how even 30psi of boost can cause a valve held shut with a 60psi spring to open? Perhaps it slows it from closing?

turbovanmanČ
06-01-2006, 07:18 PM
ah, I understand the idea. Not too sure I see how even 30psi of boost can cause a valve held shut with a 60psi spring to open? Perhaps it slows it from closing?

Theres a formula to figure it and its quite possible, some of the pro's, ie Steve M have had it happen. A valve is X amount sq inches, multiply by this, apply that etc and it can get held off its seat or against seating easily.

Frank
06-01-2006, 07:19 PM
mostly the case of not closing... bacially fluttering shut. Also remember that 60psi isnt a good way of looking at it... 60lb/in which means 60lbs to move 1 in.

Now seat pressure is 60lb/in. The actually spring is higher, but still below stock up until you get about .25" of lift, then it goes past... not really benificial at that point.


Frank

Frank
06-01-2006, 07:20 PM
Theres a formula to figure it and its quite possible, some of the pro's, ie Steve M have had it happen. A valve is X amount sq inches, multiply by this, apply that etc and it can get held off its seat or against seating easily.

I can't wait for you to drag race again to see results

turbovanmanČ
06-01-2006, 07:22 PM
I can't wait for you to drag race again to see results

Thanks but its gonna be awhile, :(

ssheen
06-01-2006, 08:17 PM
Thanks for the info. I assume the effect is different with large valves over stock? What level of boost are we talking about?

turbovanmanČ
06-01-2006, 09:19 PM
Thanks for the info. I assume the effect is different with large valves over stock? What level of boost are we talking about?

I would assume 15 psi would be the limit on the conicals but I am running 25psi now and plan on 30-35psi to achieve my goals.

Directconnection
06-01-2006, 09:22 PM
... 60lb/in which means 60lbs to move 1 in.
Frank


I think you mean 60lbs to move a 1" diameter? like as in a hydralic or pnuematic piston. 1" reffering to the surface area. Or, 60lb an inch like a lever arm of 1". But, once the piston is in motion, it should stay in motion, and not travel a one inch distance only.

Anyways.... 60inlbs is agreed that it sounds awfully low for this application. Anybody know what a TBI spring has for a seat pressure? I could test at work, but I have a "Bag 'o 2.2/2.5 valve springs" and not knowing what's what:confused:

turbovanmanČ
06-01-2006, 10:28 PM
No idea, I have a bag and box o-valve springs, :lol:

puppet
06-01-2006, 10:36 PM
Why do you think they are costing you HP?
All valves bounce off the seat when they close ... even with heavy springs. The difference is that at high rpm's with a heavier spring that bounce is controlled. Lighter springs allow the valve to bounce uncontrolled, rebounding up and down and side to side, till they finally seat. Light springs can also damage the valves/seats over a short time.

They're good for breaking in some cams but once that's done heavier springs should be swapped in. Heavier the better.

JDAWG
06-02-2006, 09:15 AM
I think you mean 60lbs to move a 1" diameter? like as in a hydralic or pnuematic piston. 1" reffering to the surface area. Or, 60lb an inch like a lever arm of 1". But, once the piston is in motion, it should stay in motion, and not travel a one inch distance only.

Anyways.... 60inlbs is agreed that it sounds awfully low for this application. Anybody know what a TBI spring has for a seat pressure? I could test at work, but I have a "Bag 'o 2.2/2.5 valve springs" and not knowing what's what:confused:
I show all 782 heads having the same springs. Now the older heads (I guess G heads) I show 2 completely different springs for NA and turbo. 4.24mm dia for NA and 4.5mm dia for turbo. And why these springs are different part #'s then for a 782 head I really have no idea. If all the springs fit for the 782 head than why not a G head? And why in the MP book they dont list any differences in the springs between G and 782? Well just remembered G head valves are taller, but I guess springs will fit both? Oh and Simon dont know what year MP book you have but one on fthe ones I have shows the 2.2/2.5 and slant six/3.9 on the same section and the 813 springs is listed for both engines so yes magnum stuff could be used also. Well just flipped to the magnum section and none of the springs are the same but the 032 moly retainers are listed for the magnum engine and 2.2/2.5 but not the slant6/3.9?? I dunno but I say the magnum stuff will work.

turbovanmanČ
06-02-2006, 12:25 PM
^Thanks, my book is the same. I am not worried about the 318 springs, but the difference in retainers. I just ordered one Chrome retainer, same weight as the stocker so that saves me $100, will just reuse the stockers. I would like the titanium ones but not at $26 each.
I have been looking at V8 ones but there all the wrong keeper angle, we have 8 deg locks and most V8's are 10 degs. The V8 sets are around $250 for 16. I would glad split it with someone but I don't know if the 2 deg difference is bad or not? thoughts?

TurboJerry
06-02-2006, 12:51 PM
I run a comp dual spring PN 985, 164 @ 1.750 / 331 @ 1.250 with 10 deg titanium retainers and 426 Hemi keepers. Also they have a single spring that is really good as well. PN 942, 115 @ 1.700 / 284 @ 1.200.

ssheen
06-02-2006, 01:34 PM
Sorry, for the simple question. Are the retainers the disk on the top of the springs and the keeps the 2 pieces that go around the valve?

turbovanmanČ
06-02-2006, 02:17 PM
Sorry, for the simple question. Are the retainers the disk on the top of the springs and the keeps the 2 pieces that go around the valve?


Yep, thats the one.

ssheen
06-02-2006, 02:28 PM
Do lightweight retainers and keepers make that much of a difference?

turbovanmanČ
06-02-2006, 04:02 PM
Do lightweight retainers and keepers make that much of a difference?

You don't get and can't get lightweight keepers, you get the lighter retainers. yes, it can make a world of difference. TJ, I read your post so fast I missed your facts on the keepers. So you saying I can buy 426 keepers and run the V8 titanium retainers? :eyebrows: Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

BadFastGTC
06-03-2006, 07:06 AM
You can get titanium keepers.




You don't get and can't get lightweight keepers, you get the lighter retainers. yes, it can make a world of difference. TJ, I read your post so fast I missed your facts on the keepers. So you saying I can buy 426 keepers and run the V8 titanium retainers? :eyebrows: Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

turbovanmanČ
06-03-2006, 11:50 AM
You can get titanium keepers.

Really? I have never seen them, damn. They'll make anything. I would imagine its kinda pointless, the reg one's don't weigh anything already!!!!!

boost geek
06-04-2006, 09:19 PM
I borrowed out my older blue MP parts book and never got it back. It's been a while, but I thought they listed a 340 spring with the same outside diameter. I could be wrong, again, it's been quite a while...

TurboJerry
06-05-2006, 02:23 AM
The 426 Hemi uses 5/16" stem valves. Which is the same as 8mm 2.2 / 2.5 valves. I bought a set a while ago and they fit like it was made for it. BFGTC said there are ti keepers. this is true, but may be risky on a street engine. The Ti retainers are no problem though on the street. The Ti keepers make a difference on pro-stock, and comp eliminator engines though....... They even weigh more of nothing.

BadFastGTC
06-05-2006, 08:18 AM
The weight difference between the steel and titanium is a couple of grams. The Manley Super 7 keepers used on a .311" stem are 8.5 grams/pair. The same keeper in titanium are 4.2. As TJ says, they make a difference in the right application.




The 426 Hemi uses 5/16" stem valves. Which is the same as 8mm 2.2 / 2.5 valves. I bought a set a while ago and they fit like it was made for it. BFGTC said there are ti keepers. this is true, but may be risky on a street engine. The Ti retainers are no problem though on the street. The Ti keepers make a difference on pro-stock, and comp eliminator engines though....... They even weigh more of nothing.

glhs875
06-05-2006, 08:24 AM
The weight difference between the steel and titanium is a couple of grams. The Manley Super 7 keepers used on a .311" stem are 8.5 grams/pair. The same keeper in titanium are 4.2. As TJ says, they make a difference in the right application.

That's a fair amount of difference. BTW a dollar bill weighs 1 gram. But the rotating weight grows as RPM's climb!!!

turbovanmanČ
06-05-2006, 12:59 PM
The weight difference between the steel and titanium is a couple of grams. The Manley Super 7 keepers used on a .311" stem are 8.5 grams/pair. The same keeper in titanium are 4.2. As TJ says, they make a difference in the right application.

I don't mean to nitpick, but do you mean oz's? I find it hard to believe the 2 keepers weigh 8.5 grams a pair? 8.5oz's makes more sense or do you mean the retainer? :confused:

GLHSKEN
06-05-2006, 01:18 PM
No, you reversed them Simon. The keepers are the "clips" that attach to the Valvestem in the RETAINER hole. Keepers are tiny

turbovanmanČ
06-05-2006, 01:26 PM
No, you reversed them Simon. The keepers are the "clips" that attach to the Valvestem in the RETAINER hole. Keepers are tiny

Exactly, thats why I find it hard to believe the Keepers weigh 8.5 grams. The retainer is the large saucer and I would believe that weighs 8.5 grams.

GLHSKEN
06-05-2006, 02:03 PM
8.5 grams is 1/3 of an ounce....

turboshad
06-05-2006, 02:16 PM
Don't get confused between lbf, lbm, psi and lb/in.

Springs are rated in lb/in,not psi which is lb/in^2, so if the number you got was 60lb/in when closed then at that point it would take 60lbf (pounds force) to compress the spring one inch.

My assumption would be that the number was a closed spring force so it would be more like 60lbf (not saying this is the actual number).

To figure out what pressure it would take to open you would take the the closed force and devide it by the seat area minus the stem area. (by seat area I mean the area of the valve hole in the seat if that makes any sense) So if hypothetically this are came to 2in^2 then the pressure when the sping force would be overcome would be 30 psi.

If you want to find the closed force on your valves a crude way would be to put the spring on a scale and compress it to the "valve closed" height and then take the reading off the scale. This will give you an approximate on how much force is being applied by the spring when the vavle is closed.

This only accounts for the spring pressure and not any postive or negative pressures in the cylinder though the only negative pressures I could think of would be when the intake valves are open.

DJ

Turbodave
06-06-2006, 12:15 PM
8.5 grams is 1/3 of an ounce....


Ken is right, 8.5 grams isn't much weight, a little less than a 1/3 of an ounce.

If it were 8.5oz for the keepers that would be over 1/2lb, i don't think they could weigh that much even if made of gold or lead.

turbovanmanČ
06-06-2006, 12:17 PM
I got to lay off the crack, ;)

John B
06-07-2006, 12:05 AM
I got to lay off the crack, ;) Wine is much more soothing.:)

Whorse
06-07-2006, 12:25 AM
Yeah but Simon lives in surrey where you can buy crack at the liquor store.

boost geek
06-07-2006, 12:30 AM
:lol:
By the way, going to Mission friday night?

turbovanmanČ
06-07-2006, 12:40 AM
:lol:
By the way, going to Mission friday night?

No, remember, gone to Seattle, bike racing. If you want to borrow my slicks, ask Hemidare if he'll stop by and grab them if hes' going out but I am leaving after work on Thursday, :nod:

Whorse
06-07-2006, 12:51 AM
What time on thursday?

turbovanmanČ
06-07-2006, 12:52 AM
What time on thursday?

5PM SHARP!

boost geek
06-07-2006, 12:53 AM
I think I'll try without slicks this first time out, hope my dawes gets here, not sure if I can run with my wastegate can disconnected and 33# injectors. I always did on the blue car, but this things been ported since then, intake modded and larger t.b. When I let it hit at 15-17psi for a second, it hits hard!:thumb:

The Pope
06-15-2006, 09:15 PM
mostly the case of not closing... bacially fluttering shut. Also remember that 60psi isnt a good way of looking at it... 60lb/in which means 60lbs to move 1 in.

Now seat pressure is 60lb/in. The actually spring is higher, but still below stock up until you get about .25" of lift, then it goes past... not really benificial at that point.


Frank

first of all I rarely can even post this time of year and I never come on this list. But going back to the conicals from the begining helps.

My head when I took it in to be gone through and to have new bigger valves installed had springs that were 5,000 miles old. I beat on my head and ran 6,000 RPM from time to time, but the can went faster whether or not it made power over 6,000 doesn't matter. All of my valve springs were brand new springs, only 2 out off all 8 had more PSI seat pressure than the conicals and by only 5 PSI.

My 5,000 mile old, and every other regular valve spring engine that comes through has the same problem, regular valve springs lose there strength. Our valve train has a very high ratio, I may be a bit off but we measured it to be over 1.8:1 (1.87:1 last I checked it). This makes for a spring beating boxxing match. Conicals take this and don't go bad. One of my new springs was 40 PSI on the seat less than the conicals, most were 20 PSI. The new turbo springs ran 10-15 PSI more on the seat than mine, TBI springs averaged 5-0 less than conicals on the seat.

Back to the problem again. If your running huge boost over 20 PSI you should not be running a stock spring, let alone a conical. But this is not equal on every engine either. Look back on my 12 second SRT 4 thread for clue's as to why. It is called exhaust back pressure offset by the the pressure differental of a turbo engine. If your running ALLOT of back pressure in your enhaust. Whether it be a restrictive IC, exhaust manifold, little exhaust pipe. What ever your jacking your exhaust pressure. You can take a stock Daytona T2 car and have 40 PSI more exhaust pressure than a built Daytona with 10 PSI more boost. SRT 4s need exhaust pressure of over 80 PSI too turn a stock turbo to 15 PSI of boost. DRASTICALLY lowering this with a big Spearco the car gained boost. It went from runing 15 PSI then dropping to 12 at red line. The Spearco made it run 17 all the way to red line, no other changes. STOCK WASTEGATE CAN. The spring in a stock SRT 4 is weak and can't hold the back pressure, lower the exhaust pressure and raise in the intake boost pressure.

To make a long story short you need a spring that will hold back your exhaust. If your system can't breathe you better get a bigger spring. If you want boost to the moon well over 20 PSI, forget it, your going to need a real spring. But conicals on a built right TD will have to hold back the same exhaust backpressure at 18 PSI as a stock T2 Daytona at 12. This is a very clear, easy explanation to a very old problem. If there is a math equation that matches seat pressure to exhaust back pressure. That's what we need! Then it is a matter of measuring your back pressure and buying a spring that will hold it. Come on Frank you must have a math equation for us! :thumb: This is what is needed, untill then your all guessing, me included to what is or not needed.

Rob

Frank
06-15-2006, 10:00 PM
I wish I had an equation, but I believe alot of those V8 guys keep those hidden with their gold watches in their.... anyway, while we are speculating that Simon's lack of power on his 20-25psi runs is because of the conical setup. Wants he gets it running again, this will be all the information we needed.


Frank

turbovanmanČ
06-15-2006, 10:16 PM
Yep, I will go back and change nothing but the valve springs and see what happens. Still haven't done anything yet, having too much fun racing my GSXR750, :thumb:

gasketmaster
06-16-2006, 02:24 AM
The experts have told me that the spring pressure is way to low, the boost is forcing the valves open, this is costing me power.

Actually the valves are bouncing to much as they are closing........some experts warned people of this way back when the conical thing first got started................but everybody is looking for the "magic pill" :D

TurboJerry
06-16-2006, 03:14 AM
*stock* turbo springs are 110 lbs on the seat, 175 open. Conicals are like 60 lbs? That sounds like valve toss boogie to me........ Thanks to BFGTC for the stock spring info. I did test some old ones and he is right. (not that I questioned him, ahem, ahem) I've had a hell of a time getting the retainers and keepers loose when the valves floated / tossed. They *usually* wedge together so tightly that they needed to get hit with a hammer because the compressor won't do it by itself.

turbovanmanČ
06-16-2006, 11:05 AM
Actually the valves are bouncing to much as they are closing........some experts warned people of this way back when the conical thing first got started................but everybody is looking for the "magic pill" :D


Thanks for more info, :thumb:

Too bad my van won't be ready for PIR in 2 weeks, I'll be there on the 23-25th Bike racing. :nod:

Frank
06-16-2006, 11:12 AM
Thats because you are too busy posting here!!! hahaha

turbovanmanČ
06-16-2006, 01:19 PM
Thats because you are too busy posting here!!! hahaha


How did I know someone would say that, :ban: :p

Frank
06-16-2006, 02:16 PM
Would like to see you try! HAHAHAHAHA

ssheen
06-23-2006, 01:24 AM
I had my conicals tested by my machine shop.

Close was 90lbs, open 220/224. A height of 1.645, coil bind at 1.040. A 30 thou shim would give a stock close seat pressure at 105 with tons of room before coil bind.

GLHSKEN
06-23-2006, 06:52 AM
I had my conicals tested by my machine shop.

.

^^^^^ Why did that statement almost make me spit my coffee this morning... :D :D :lol:

ssheen
06-23-2006, 11:54 AM
Perhaps I should claify that some. I had the conical springs for the Daytona's 2.2 782 AL head tested at the machine shop. :D :D

turbovanmanČ
08-03-2006, 12:55 PM
UPDATE-


installed them last night, powertrain is still quiet, :thumb:

Seems to pull harder all the way to 5000 rpm, like a freight train, :nod: The boost hits like a powerband and hits hard. I lost 3-4 lbs of boost, MBC was at 21-22 ish and now its at 18 ish. My boost used to flucuate for 8 or more then settle, now it does it for 2-3 swings then settle.
Its also now running alot richer? but yep, much happier

JDAWG
08-03-2006, 02:16 PM
so what springs did you end up using? Still PT lifters?

Mario
08-03-2006, 03:12 PM
Yes, what springs are you running now? Did vac change at all?

Frank
08-03-2006, 04:19 PM
UPDATE-


installed them last night, powertrain is still quiet, :thumb:

Seems to pull harder all the way to 5000 rpm, like a freight train, :nod: The boost hits like a powerband and hits hard. I lost 3-4 lbs of boost, MBC was at 21-22 ish and now its at 18 ish. My boost used to flucuate for 8 or more then settle, now it does it for 2-3 swings then settle.
Its also now running alot richer? but yep, much happier


SWEET!!!! I am very happy for you! I told you your boost would read lower if it was your valve springs. :D


Frank

turbovanmanČ
08-03-2006, 04:48 PM
I am running the MP 318 springs, see post 1 for spring info. Yes, running PT lifters. Vacuum with the S2 cam is still 15 inches.

Frank
08-03-2006, 04:51 PM
I can't wait to see your results. I bet that if you didnt run any alky that you wouldnt have that knock you were getting at mid rpm range... primarily because your combustion chamber temps on the intake stroke would be lower as you would have less exhaust gas left in the cylinder.


Frank

turbovanmanČ
08-03-2006, 05:18 PM
I wish, turned the boost up to 25 psi on the way home and the alky didn't work, ping city, :( but thats on 92 octane gas.

Directconnection
08-03-2006, 06:18 PM
I wish, turned the boost up to 25 psi on the way home and the alky didn't work, ping city, :( but thats on 92 octane gas.


Simon... in the words of the Robert Plant tune: "little by little" I can't believe you haven't toasted a piston before (that i know of):amen:

turbovanmanČ
08-03-2006, 08:48 PM
Simon... in the words of the Robert Plant tune: "little by little" I can't believe you haven't toasted a piston before (that i know of):amen:


I did until I switched to forged JE's baby, :nod: :amen: