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View Full Version : Got dogged for this elsewhere, trying again.



Jere86TZ
05-27-2006, 06:37 AM
This is merely an inquiry on a future project on a whole new motor that'll go into my car once I am at the point where that kind of work can be done.

Right in front of me is the June issue of Popular Hot Rodding that has the article on "Compression Comprehension" detailing how to run high compression. Before anyone jumps to assumptions that I mean running 10:1 compression in the TD, I am not talking about that. In there, there is some juicy information that I found interesting and possibly of some use in our cars:

1. They mentioned Total Seal rings. How these rings work is as such: the gap in the lower ring is opposite of the bore :confused: and is sealed off by the upper ring. Either by gas pressure on top of the piston or through radial ports in the piston, gas pressure pushes on the rear of the lower ring to create a more snug contact between the ring and the cylinder wall to nearly eliminate blow-by. It has been said to actually last for a good while, yet I have heard little of this process. Why is this?

2. Speaking of radial ports, I hear little about gas ports. Verticle gas ports, which feature small ports on the top of the piston, allow gas through the piston to put pressure on the back of the compression ring for (once again) a more snug fit. Radial ports are on the top ring land right under the compression ring to allow what blow-by there is to be pushed into the ports to the inside of the piston and push on the back of ring... again.

Anyone heard of this?

Edit: Going to put in a list of sources:

http://www.totalseal.com/html/rings/gapless/index.htm

http://www.rosspistons.com/custom_gas_ports.php - States that gas porting is not suggested for endurance racing... might not be good for a street car, eh?

GLHSKEN
05-27-2006, 09:18 AM
Wiseco pistons are built that way... That's how I learned about it. Why would you be dogged for that info.

Clay
05-27-2006, 09:36 AM
http://www.rosspistons.com/custom_gas_ports.php - States that gas porting is not suggested for endurance racing... might not be good for a street car, eh?

I would think endruance racing would be sustained high HP operation, so I think a street car would be fine. And considering all the cars running around the streets with Weiscos.... I think you will be fine.

and yeah, why would someone dog you for asking questions?????

Jere86TZ
05-27-2006, 11:24 AM
No clue! I guess it's one of those questions that, since some people don't understand it, they automatically assume it's a stupid question. Most people I've spoken to that I know personally have yet to hear about gas ports, so they looked at me all :confused: followed by :rolleyes: Meh...

Thanks for the info!

powermaxx
05-27-2006, 11:30 AM
I run Weiscos and Total Seal gapless rings. :nod:

I think the gas port stuff has been around for some time.

Frank
05-27-2006, 11:37 AM
No clue! I guess it's one of those questions that, since some people don't understand it, they automatically assume it's a stupid question. Most people I've spoken to that I know personally have yet to hear about gas ports, so they looked at me all :confused: followed by :rolleyes: Meh...

Thanks for the info!


Well you will never have to worry about it hear. Rather interesting information... I am always up for good slug talk.


Frank

Ondonti
05-27-2006, 01:08 PM
when it comes to gas ports, I would not use the ones that go to the top of the cylinder, but just those that diagonally go towards the cylinder wall. That way you arent getting extra combustion heat at the rings.......just helping the stuff that is already there get behind the compression ring rather then try to go past it.

Verticle gas ports are supposed to clog up with carbon so they stop working.......

Jere86TZ
05-27-2006, 02:40 PM
when it comes to gas ports, I would not use the ones that go to the top of the cylinder, but just those that diagonally go towards the cylinder wall. That way you arent getting extra combustion heat at the rings.......just helping the stuff that is already there get behind the compression ring rather then try to go past it.

Verticle gas ports are supposed to clog up with carbon so they stop working.......

Sounds about how I would put it.

turbovanmanČ
05-27-2006, 03:37 PM
I don't know if gas ports are a good idea on turbo street engines.

As for Total Seal rings, on a turbo motor, they suck ---. I wouldn't hesitate to run them on a N/A engine. I have them in my van and there f*cked. I only have 10,000 Km's on them and can't keep oil in the engine, it keeps blowing it out of all my breathers. I had to run multiple breathers on the engine and can't stop my oil leaks. Same engine, reg rings never had this issue. Also, did a leakdown the other day, cyls 1-3 have 10%, :( and #4 has 100% then the rings seat and it goes up to 0%. I called TS left numerous messages. So far, there ignoring me plus I doubt they will do anything for me. I was at the track the other day and they said the Turbo Buicks stopped using them, they were measuring pressure in the crankcase equal to boost pressure. The problem is they don't slowly let the boost get by, but suddenly. Anyhow, end of rant.

Ondonti
05-27-2006, 03:43 PM
i hope breaking them in n/a helps.

Jere86TZ
05-28-2006, 01:10 AM
I don't know if gas ports are a good idea on turbo street engines.

Why is this?

turbovanmanČ
05-28-2006, 01:12 AM
Why is this?


Not 100% sure but Wallace, aka Mopar2ya said they do this to help push the rings against the wall, on a street engine, it would wear out super fast.

WVRampage
05-28-2006, 01:20 AM
total seals in a N/A engine are great im no sure over turbo engines as i didnt want to put that much money in to them so i went with perfect circle,Also ring shapes have alot to do with how well they work and last the perfect circles have a back cut on the inside edge so copression with push them in to the cyl wall beter and get more seal.

Ondonti
05-28-2006, 08:21 PM
Not 100% sure but Wallace, aka Mopar2ya said they do this to help push the rings against the wall, on a street engine, it would wear out super fast.
Rings are not going to get worn out..........The Gas ports dont create extra pressure pushing against the rings, they just let pressure get behind the rings before it pushes past the front of the ring. Vertical ports might wear things out because they are taking pressure straight from the top of the piston. Still there are many more reasons why I would never run these.
Vertical gas ports can get clogged by carbon deposites. Thats why they work great on a car that gets rebuild every weekend (well torn down at least).

now, I have never seen anyone come up with a good argument against diagonal gas ports since you dont really get carbon buildup on the actual rings. Those gas ports just make a nice path from gasses right above the ring to slip behind the ring. you are only supposed to run maybe 2 ports per inch of bore or less.

Ondonti
05-29-2006, 12:39 AM
Oh simon, i will be VERY pissed of my rings leak after I break them in according to instruction given by TS.


BTW I think I have an asian girlfriend now :D

turbovanmanČ
05-29-2006, 12:55 AM
Oh simon, i will be VERY pissed of my rings leak after I break them in according to instruction given by TS.


BTW I think I have an asian girlfriend now :D

I hope they work for you. Next chance I get, there getting removed.

Awesome dude, there worth it. BTW-

http://www.westwoodracing.com/forums/images/smilies/needpics1.gif

Jere86TZ
05-29-2006, 03:43 AM
Super fast might be an exaggeration, but I could see his side of the story...

Sorry if I come off as a know-it-all n00b, because I'm just trying to get information as clear as I can. I doubt I'll be going to this stage anytime soon, anyways. That's a lot of money I can't afford right now. It's just wishful thinking . :p

GLHSKEN
05-29-2006, 08:14 AM
Yu aren't coming off tht way at all. This board welcomes a good "discussion". You will always get differenct perspectives in a friendly way.

turbovanmanČ
05-29-2006, 12:40 PM
Agreed, this is what we are here for, to discuss and figure it all out, everyone has something to bring to the table, :nod:

If we didn't do this, we'd all be running stock everything and scratching our heads.

Jere86TZ
05-29-2006, 12:58 PM
Well, what about this:

If radial ports put pressure on the compression ring, there is such thing as "static" tension for a ring, and boost directly affects how much pressure is put on the rings, couldn't one simply get either a ring with a pretty good static tension with boost only adding pressure to prevent the extra power blowing by the rings? That, or you could use smaller ports for higher boost applications. I'd have to agree that, off-boost, the ports wouldn't be needed... but the ports may allow for more power with less blow-by... either that, or excessive pressure, whichever comes first.

I doubt anyone needs ports... but it sounds like a good idea for a low (anything 10kPa or lower) boost applications.

Ondonti
05-29-2006, 06:27 PM
People who run gas ports often are n/a.

Static tension of a ring probably comprises 0.0001% of ring seal from what I have read.

The more boost you run the more pressure you are looking at trying to get past the rings, so running smaller ports for more bost would not work out.

I dont think anyone here is going to spend so much time at 30 psi boost that they are going to really change the wear rates of the rings.

I wanted to run a dykes ring but I went with total seal for some reason. Venolia didnt want me to do gas ports on my pistons since I was going to drive it on the street. aka I didnt get anything I wanted. :(

Jere86TZ
05-29-2006, 08:23 PM
I can't argue with that, because I am very unfamiliar with combustion chamber event dynamics. The way I sometimes look at things, however, is that people tend to just follow a trend that may always be the trend to follow. On the other hand, you look so foolish going away from a trend that's there for a reason, and I think this is the latter. Venolia probably felt that 1. you would get bad results from the ports and 2. they could be held liable for charging you for something that didn't work.

Then again, with Wiseco doing gas ports... that makes for at least some curiosity. I think that some people mix racing experiences with street experiences. In any case, I'll just hold on the ports.

Ondonti
05-29-2006, 08:40 PM
One thing though is they probably thought I meant "vertical gas ports" and their actual argument was that these ports expose the rings to combustion flame that they normally would not see. The more conservative diagonal gas ports do not do this at all.