Powdercoating help

[iTurbo]

I recently got a powder coating kit and want to do stuff like engine brackets, valve covers, manifolds etc.. I have a bunch of colors on the way along with a variety of masking tape, plugs, and caps. I should be able to start experimenting with this as soon as those parts get here but I have a few questions:

How do you keep the powder off the raised letters on valve covers? Do I mask them off or wipe off the powder before putting it in the oven? Or PC the whole piece and block sand them out later?

How do I know if I need to media blast a part before PC? What media is best? I was planning on having parts like valve covers and intake manifolds soda blasted...

When doing a wrinkle powder, can you do multiple coats to get a heavier texture, or will that mess it up?

And I'm at a total loss as to how to get two colors on one piece. For example, a silver hubcap with recessed red letters.

Any tips/tricks would be greately appreciated. I'll post pics of my results when done.

[stitus]

I've never done PC at home, but I used to do it for a living so I'll try to help the best I can. When I did my valve cover, I used special tape that doesn't melt and masked off the raised parts then carefully trimmed the tape around the letters and lines. You could wipe the powder off.... but it would be nearly impossible to do so without wiping powder off of other parts of the cover, better to mask, although you could sand it as well. I prefer to mask it, but I did 2 colors on mine so I had to. You don't have to media blast parts at all, but they definitely have to be squeaky clean with all the old paint removed. Wrinkle is the trickiest kind of coating to do. Honestly, there is a fine line between too much and not enough... best advice I can offer here is emphasize an EVEN coat. You can do a thin even coat, then shoot it again with another THIN even coat if it doesn't wrinkle enough. If its too think in spots after the first or second time, then you have to sand the thick spots then sand the rest just enough to knock down the texture or shine and you can shoot again, same goes for wrinkle or regular paint. 2 colors is easy. Shoot one color first, then mask the letters or background and shoot again :) I suggest keeping it to one layer of paint on recessed areas to avoid the buildup of two layers. So if you have recessed lettering and you want red letters, do the whole thing red, then mask the letters and shoot the background color. Another suggestion, as I don't know what comes in a kit, is to use hooks to handle the clean and painted parts. If you have any questions, just pm me as I don't always check the threads daily ;)

[rbryant]

I usually just take a sanding pad on a 90 degree die grinder to the letters and take the powder off from them afterward. Masking is a real PITA.

The same goes for raised ribs like on our intake manifolds. You can just polish the powder off and it looks great just don't slip!

-Rich

[rx2mazda]

I usually just take a sanding pad on a 90 degree die grinder to the letters and take the powder off from them afterward. Masking is a real PITA.

The same goes for raised ribs like on our intake manifolds. You can just polish the powder off and it looks great just don't slip!

-Rich

+1

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l71/rx2mazda/DSC00353.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l71/rx2mazda/DSC00347.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l71/rx2mazda/DSC00357.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l71/rx2mazda/100_1056.jpg

[rdnoel86]

very nice :clap::thumb:



+1

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l71/rx2mazda/DSC00353.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l71/rx2mazda/DSC00347.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l71/rx2mazda/DSC00357.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l71/rx2mazda/100_1056.jpg

[iTurbo]

Thanks guys, and those covers look great Carroll. Are all those pics of the same covers? Or do they represent steps in a sequence to the last pic? I'm sure I'll have more questions as I get started on it. Looks like I gotta wait another week for my Eastwood order to show up.

[zin]

How do you keep the powder off the raised letters on valve covers? Do I mask them off or wipe off the powder before putting it in the oven? Or PC the whole piece and block sand them out later?

Any of the above, though sanding often turns out the best, if you don't slip!


How do I know if I need to media blast a part before PC? What media is best? I was planning on having parts like valve covers and intake manifolds soda blasted...

You want as clean a surface as you can reasonably get, soda would likely do the trick! A word of advise, aluminum anneals around 350*F, so most "standard" powder paints shouldn't be used on something you don't want "going soft" on you, like a Alt/AC bracket, if strength isn't in a part's job description, it probably won't be a problem.


When doing a wrinkle powder, can you do multiple coats to get a heavier texture, or will that mess it up?

Don't know on this one....


Any tips/tricks would be greatly appreciated. I'll post pics of my results when done.

One last tip, if you get PC in places it shouldn't be, you can remove it after the fact using aircraft stripper and a Q-tip, just be careful.

Mike

[iTurbo]

You want as clean a surface as you can reasonably get, soda would likely do the trick! A word of advise, aluminum anneals around 350*F, so most "standard" powder paints shouldn't be used on something you don't want "going soft" on you, like a Alt/AC bracket, if strength isn't in a part's job description, it probably won't be a problem.


Can you elaborate on this? I was going to do the bare aluminum brackets (like the alt/AC) with 'blasted aluminum' powder for the factory look. Are you saying I need a special powder because of the heat?

[ohlarikd]

We can go on for days about powder coating. I use to have one of those $4000 guns and a big oven. But I can quickly summarize that powder coating is NOT as easy as it looks. Matte and wrinkle finishes are easy in the sense that they are a little more forgiving in terms of how you get the powder on and how it ends up. Putting on a glossy finish is major trouble to not get orange peel.

Also, metallic colors are tough to get to stick to where you want cause of the metal flake messing up the electrostatic properties. It just doesn't quite 'go' the way you expect. Hard to explain.

Corners, angles, recesses - all hard to get powder into.

Anyway - start practicing on flat small pieces. Don't use a lot of gloss (20% or less) if you can, it just flows smoother for some reason.

Make sure part is CLEAN. No grease! Remove all rubber parts as they will melt in oven.

Finally - masking little details takes FOREVER. I concur that a grinding disc (little 3M abrasive pads on a 90 degree angle) is far easier than masking certain things. But you DO need to make inner bearing surfaces for instance.

I powdered several motorcycles, but I determined that powdercoating places really DON'T charge too much if you actually tried to do a complicated piece yourself. I now take my parts to a shop.

Derek

[GLHNSLHT2]

I get a sanding block that's flat and sand the letters off with that. Then the letters are flat and by going back and forth it puts a nice grain in the aluminum.

[iTurbo]

Sounds like block sanding is the way to go. I have a power tool called a Fein Multimaster that has sanding heads. Looks like it should work pretty well here.

I'm particularly interested in doing wrinkle finishes as that's what most of the parts I'll be doing will end up as. I have some wrinkle red TIII covers/manifold from FWDP that are just gorgeous. I can only hope to get the same quality.

One more question....How do I know if I need to outgas a part before shooting? Is this something I should be worried about with cast aluminum parts?

[Lotashelbys]

I get a sanding block that's flat and sand the letters off with that. Then the letters are flat and by going back and forth it puts a nice grain in the aluminum.That is definatly the way to go on intakes and VCs. The "one way grain" sanded aluminum look is amazing on them when done correctly.


Sounds like block sanding is the way to go. I have a power tool called a Fein Multimaster that has sanding heads. Looks like it should work pretty well here.

I'm particularly interested in doing wrinkle finishes as that's what most of the parts I'll be doing will end up as. I have some wrinkle red TIII covers/manifold from FWDP that are just gorgeous. I can only hope to get the same quality.

One more question....How do I know if I need to outgas a part before shooting? Is this something I should be worried about with cast aluminum parts?

Wrinkle finishes are pretty easy to do as stated above. On the wrinkle red I have make sure to put it on thick and even for a deep wrinkle pattern. I leave the red in the oven just a bit longer than the powder suggests to get it closer to the "Lotus" wrinkle red.


You have to outgas aluminum for sure! I havent had to outgas mild steel at all.

Another thing I learned is if you are using and aluminum colored powder on aluminum and you want to clear it over top make sure the base coat have been on for a few hours before you apply the clear.....

[WickedShelby88]

Just curious Jackson, what do you mean by outgas? like some sort of forced ventilation? Also can using an old cooking oven be sufficient or do you need to have access to an oven specific to the application or equivalent?

[ohlarikd]

Just curious Jackson, what do you mean by outgas? like some sort of forced ventilation? Also can using an old cooking oven be sufficient or do you need to have access to an oven specific to the application or equivalent?

He means some metals need to be put through an oven cycle as is (no powder) to 'release' some trapped gases in the metal. If they get released when the powder is flowing on the part, the finish will be ruined.

I think magnesium is one that needs to be preheated. Aluminum I guess, although I hadn't had a problem in the past with it. Better safe than sorry.

Also - metal-based powder (metallic colors) do need to be clear coated to prevent rust, believe it or not. The metal particles will rust.

[iTurbo]

Any ideas what would be a good time/temp cycle to outgas intake/valve covers?

Do additional coats become more difficult as the powder builds up and becomes thicker? I'm kinda worried my Eastwood gun won't do 2nd or 3rd coats very well but I haven't got any experience with it yet. Do the higher voltage guns help adhesion?

[ohlarikd]

Any ideas what would be a good time/temp cycle to outgas intake/valve covers?

Do additional coats become more difficult as the powder builds up and becomes thicker? I'm kinda worried my Eastwood gun won't do 2nd or 3rd coats very well but I haven't got any experience with it yet. Do the higher voltage guns help adhesion?

I had the $4000 Pro Gun / system, AND the Eastwood $99 gun. The Eastwood gun isn't really adjustable in any way (...actually, there is a newer Eastwood gun I think... which one do you have?). I can't remember if a higher voltage will help powder stick better - I think it actually ended up causing more harm then good with powder building up too much where you don't want it.

2nd or 3rd coats are a bit of an issue - but that other guy can chime in. Two coats is usually to either clear, or to do a candy coat. You usually do not fully cure the first coat so that the second has a better surface to adhere to. A 2nd coat usually will not adhere well to a fully cured coat. Why are you putting a second or 3rd coat on anyway?

[dds78910]

Alot of powders I have bought come with temp and and time instructions. The biggest thing I noticed is thicker parts like intake manifolds will need to be in the oven longer. You will really notice it with wrinkle PC cause if it isnt in long enough it wont wrinkle as much.

And on the raised letters I just use the buffing pad on my little air grinder and polish the letters.

Another thing that helped me is making extra wires with aligator clips so when you hook up the ground wire you can use the extra wires and hook them to different spots on the parts so the powder lays evenly on the part.

[zin]

Can you elaborate on this? I was going to do the bare aluminum brackets (like the alt/AC) with 'blasted aluminum' powder for the factory look. Are you saying I need a special powder because of the heat?

It's kind of a judgment call, I deal with pressure cylinders, so if they fail structurally, it's a VERY big deal!:yuck: But, in this case, it would be more like the bracket deforms under load and the belts don't line-up, etc. Not the end of the world, and as heavy as they are, it might not be loaded heavily enough to deform..

Mike

[zin]

One more question....How do I know if I need to outgas a part before shooting? Is this something I should be worried about with cast aluminum parts?

IIRC, outgasing is typically done on used aluminum/magnesium(?) and other porous materials that likely have absorbed oil, grease, or other contaminants that will rise to the surface of the part, making your "clean" surface, very much not! So it is really part of the "cleaning" process. I'd suggest doing any outgasing 1st, then blasting to clear away any residue that might contaminate the finish.

Mike

[iTurbo]

OK, I did my first piece last night, a stamped steel AK47 receiver. It was easy to set everything up and I had it coated in just a few minutes. I suspended the part with wire so it was hanging from the oven rack in the highest position. I used wire from a spool that is for electric fences, and clipped the ground wire to that.

Didn't seem to have any problem curing, although I think I may have used too much heat. I have an oven thermometer that hangs off the rack inside the oven. I preheated the oven to 450 F, put the part in the oven and set the temp at 400 F. It took a while for the oven temp to come down, but I left the part to cure in the oven for 20 minutes after it flowed out.

The part looks good, although the surface texture isn't right. It looks more like gloss black than the flat black wrinkle I wanted. Didn't really see much wrinkle texture at all...Does it have to be cured differently, or did I just not put enough on?

[rbryant]

The part looks good, although the surface texture isn't right. It looks more like gloss black than the flat black wrinkle I wanted. Didn't really see much wrinkle texture at all...Does it have to be cured differently, or did I just not put enough on?

I am not sure about your AK parts but wrinkle texture sucks for engine components.

Wrinkle might look stock but it is never as clean as a gloss finish because it just doesn't wipe off and clean up very well.

-Rich

[dds78910]

I have use a wrinkle powder before and when I pulled the part out after being in the oven for a while and it wasnt wrinkled so I put it back in and let it sit in the oven another 5 min and then it had alot a wrinkle. But it seemed like to me you had the part in the oven long enough for how small the part was in. I'm not sure what would happen if it was in too long?

[iTurbo]

I tried powder coating another piece. This time, it's an old 'Nash' chrome hubcap. First I cleaned it with steel wool, then wet sanded, and finally wiped it off with electrical terminal cleaner which dries really fast and doesn't leave a residue.

First I coated it with a gloss white powder called Apollo white. Looked great! Then I taped off the recessed letters (Nash), and coated it again, this time with wrinkle blue. It turned out BAD! I used way too much wrinkle blue powder because I thought that it would need to go on heavy. It ended up sagging and the wrinkle was way too much to the point that it looked like the surface of an orange. I did this because the light coat of wrinkle black I used on the AK47 receiver turned out gloss with no wrinkle at all.

So, I gotta sand it all down and start over. I was hoping to finish these in time for Christmas and give them to my mom who collects Nash stuff. Nash is her maiden name and she has hubcaps, coffee jars and cans, spice tins etc..

Next time I am going to try several thin coats of the wrinkle instead of one heavy coat. I have two of them and I want the recessed letters in white, with the rest of the hubcap in wrinkle blue, and one wrinkle red.

[iTurbo]

Oh, forgot to add.....is it just me or is the high temp tape VERY hard to remove when there is cured powder on top of the tape? I ended up scratching the white recessed letters removing the tape which was practically impossible with all the cured wrinkle blue on top.

[ohlarikd]

The tape comes off pretty easily if you do not put on too much powder. I wish I had advice on wrinkle, but I never tried it before. For almost any other powder, its 1 light coat. Too much and the finish gets orange peeled since it won't flow right. I suspect there was too much powder so it sealed the tape way too much.

I think I said before - powdercoating sounds easy, but its not. Its a trial and error process, especially since you are trying many different things at once. I would practice on scrap before something like a nash hubcap gift that you now have to try to fix. It is hard to remove powdercoat, and putting a second coat on cured powder will cause it to peel later.

I guess none of this helps you, other than I feel your pain.

Derek

[iTurbo]

Thanks. Any tips and tricks you can share are a great help. You are right though, it isn't exactly easy to do. I think I took on a little too much with my level of experience on the hubcaps and using two colors. But ya gotta learn I guess.

Most of the powders I want to do are wrinkle so I plan to get really good at using them. I did the wrinkle blue on a scrap piece yesterday. I applied it much thinner and it came out looking pretty nice compared to the hubcap.

On the hubcap, should I coat it with it hanging in a vertical position, or lay it down on the rack horizontally? When I coated it the first time, I coated it horizontally and I think that may have contributed to the excess powder buildup. Maybe I wouldn't have that problem if I hung it up vertically instead.

[zin]

Aircraft stripper will clean off the powder coat fairly easily, though not in a super clean manner, but it might save time over sanding...

Mike

[ohlarikd]

Thanks. Any tips and tricks you can share are a great help. You are right though, it isn't exactly easy to do. I think I took on a little too much with my level of experience on the hubcaps and using two colors. But ya gotta learn I guess.

Most of the powders I want to do are wrinkle so I plan to get really good at using them. I did the wrinkle blue on a scrap piece yesterday. I applied it much thinner and it came out looking pretty nice compared to the hubcap.

On the hubcap, should I coat it with it hanging in a vertical position, or lay it down on the rack horizontally? When I coated it the first time, I coated it horizontally and I think that may have contributed to the excess powder buildup. Maybe I wouldn't have that problem if I hung it up vertically instead.

I would try to spray it vertically. If you do it horizontal, its really hard to control the thickness since it settles all over the part. In theory, you are suppose to have a spray booth with a slight draft going from the gun to the part to a filter wall. The powder shouldn't hang around in a cloud or settle anywhere. But who has a draft booth at home...

Derek

[iTurbo]

OK, had to sand the first hubcap down to metal and start all over. What a pain!!! I ended up using a wire wheel mounted in a bench grinder for the flat areas, a Fein Multimaster with a sanding head (I love this thing) for the curves, and then a can of some aerosol stripper to remove the PC from the recessed letters. Whew.

Starting from scratch, this time I applied a very light coat of the white to both hubcaps. Just enough to cover the recessed letters and a light even coat over the whole thing. I tried spraying with the cap hung vertically and it seemed to help. Then I taped off the letters with the high temp tape using an exacto knife. Very tedious and time consuming!! Now I gotta coat one in wrinkle red and one in wrinkle blue. I'm kinda nervous about it because the wrinkle seems sensitive to thickness in order to get the right wrinkle effect. I'll post some pics when they are done. Hopefully they turn out a lot better than my first try. I'm going to try and apply the wrinkle thinner in a couple coats instead of the one thick coat I tried first.

[iTurbo]

http://www.turbosedan.com/powder/DSC04300.JPG

http://www.turbosedan.com/powder/DSC04303.JPG

I'm about to go do the wrinkle now.

[iTurbo]

Ugh. Turned out bad again. This time the wrinkle blue turned out good and the finish was consistent. The letters, not so good. Once again the tape was nearly impossible to remove. It wouldn't peel off and had to be picked off little by little with my fingernails to prevent scratching the PC underneath. The white PC letters yellowed and blistered in some spots and looks horrible. The tape made a good parting line with good definition, but the white PC wouldn't survive multiple cure cycles.

I'm thinking the only way to do recessed letters is to tape them off before PC at all, then shoot the color, then remove the tape and paint them with enamel.

[ohlarikd]

Gives you a little more respect for what powdercoaters go through, right? TEDIOUS. Error prone. I have no problem paying powedercoaters after doing what you are doing myself over the years.

I am surprised the white PC yellowed. Did you use a higher cure temp for the wrinkle than the white allows? Sounds like it burned, which is possible. Burning PC off is a method of removal.

Anyway, I admire your persistence because it is indeed a difficult to learn process.

[iTurbo]

Gives you a little more respect for what powdercoaters go through, right? TEDIOUS. Error prone. I have no problem paying powedercoaters after doing what you are doing myself over the years.

For sure. There are a lot more variables involved than I originally thought. But at the same time I want to get very good at this. It reminds me of when I was learning how to tile floors and bath enclosures at my current job. Very frustrating the first few times but now I got a system down and it goes fairly smooth. I'm still considering sending some of my parts like the TIII valve covers and intakes to a vendor because I want HQ for those parts. I am getting a little better at this every time though.


I am surprised the white PC yellowed. Did you use a higher cure temp for the wrinkle than the white allows? Sounds like it burned, which is possible. Burning PC off is a method of removal.

Anyway, I admire your persistence because it is indeed a difficult to learn process.

According to my oven thermometer, the temp never got over 400'F. The Eastwood directions say to preheat to 450'F, but I thought that was too high so I just try to keep the oven around 400'F throughout the process, although it usually dips down to around 350'F when I open it to put the part in and takes a couple minutes to get back up to 400'F.

[omnigoestohell]

Be sure to watch out for dust too on larger pieces. You can defintely see the dust in the powder before you cure too so you have a chance to blow all the powder off and start over, but once its in there it really kills the look of the part. I did a set of GLHS bumpers that I need to strip and start over again a few years ago, don't really feel like putting in all the effort..

Also, on the bumpers, I laid it too thin once and you could see the aluminum showing through in a few spots.

Other than that I've powdered plenty of other parts that have come out great--- wrinkle black, gloss black, "chrome" cam gears etc.

Don't forget --- you're never supposed to use the same oven for food after using it for powder!

[iTurbo]

Hey guys, I've been powder coating again this weekend. This time I'm doing some common block seal housings. I did three sets in "Blasted Aluminum" and they look great. The color and texture really does look like freshly media blasted cast aluminum. Which brings me to my next question....Since the texture is sorta rough, would it be a good idea to clear them or am I going too crazy with this? Basically I would like them to clean up easy in the future.

http://www.turbosedan.com/t3stuff/DSC04469.JPG

http://www.turbosedan.com/t3stuff/DSC04468.JPG

Rear main seals housings taped up and ready for coating. I-shaft seal housings are next. I cleaned the housings with hot soapy water, wire wheel attachments in a Dremel, outgassed in an oven at 425' F for an hour, scrubbed again in hot soapy water and then finally rinsed with CRC quick-dry electronic cleaner since I ran out of Brakleen.

http://www.turbosedan.com/t3stuff/DSC04470.JPG

[92spiritrt]

that color will get dirty very easily, and it doesn't quite look right if you put clear on it(at least i didn't like it). what i do is just glass bead the part and then clear coat it. it saves you powder and looks better imho.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x82/92spiritrt/powder%20coating/100_0586.jpg
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x82/92spiritrt/powder%20coating/100_0587.jpg
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x82/92spiritrt/powder%20coating/100_0609.jpg

[iTurbo]

Yeah, I love the color but I can tell it's going to get dirty easily since it seems to be more porous than the bare aluminum itself. Not sure if I want to bother doing the clear at this point though because taping is very tedious and time consuming. I would probably powder them with just the clear like you are doing (looks good), but I don't have access to a media blaster. If I bring parts to a shop for blasting they charge me out the wazoo. So I am limited to getting the parts as clean as possible with other methods, and honestly I don't think they would look very good with just clear unless they were blasted first.

What do you think about doing the timing sprockets? I'd like them to look 'new', but am worried that the cured powder might make it easier to slip the timing belt.

[iTurbo]

Got my seal housings done. Onwards to the water pump housings which I should have done by tomorrow.

http://www.turbosedan.com/t3stuff/DSC04475.JPG

http://www.turbosedan.com/t3stuff/DSC04476.JPG

[iTurbo]

I didn't get the water pump housings done today. I was going to do them in the same color I did the seal housing, but changed my mind because the texture is too rough to keep clean. So I have to order more powder, but in the meantime I did prep them.

As you can see something as simple as a water pump housing can turn into a pretty tedious undertaking just getting it ready to shoot. I was hoping to shoot it lying flat on an oven rack but I wouldn't have been able to get every surface. I'll have to hang it off the rack instead. I used silicone plugs from Eastwood to plug all the threaded holes.

One question I have about the taping.....do you guys think it is necessary to tape off the ports for the radiator and heater hose? I want them coated, but am worried about cured powder breaking off and ending up in the cooling system so I taped off just the tip of the nipples. If this isn't a valid concern maybe I should just tape off the inside of the nipple instead which would result in a more professional look if the entire piece was coated.

http://www.turbosedan.com/t3stuff/DSC04480.JPG

http://www.turbosedan.com/t3stuff/DSC04481.JPG

http://www.turbosedan.com/t3stuff/DSC04482.JPG

[ohlarikd]

I agree, taping these parts SUCKS. I taped up a harley twin cylinder air cooled block once, what a pain. Never again. I gladly pay powdercoaters now with no hesitation.

I still don't know about those blasted powder parts. I would put a semi to matte clear on them (not glossy). But I understand you don't want to tape them again - its the worst part.

Derek

[iTurbo]

I agree, taping these parts SUCKS. I taped up a harley twin cylinder air cooled block once, what a pain. Never again. I gladly pay powdercoaters now with no hesitation.

I still don't know about those blasted powder parts. I would put a semi to matte clear on them (not glossy). But I understand you don't want to tape them again - its the worst part.

Derek

Yeah, I think you are right they need some kind of clear over the 'blasted aluminum' on the seal housings. The surface is just too rough. I could probably light a match on it! I do have some 'clear' powder though, but I'll have to tape them all over again. I know I'm going to do it but what a pain. I bought 2 lbs of that powder and am wondering if I'll bother using it again.

[iTurbo]

Here's a picture of a Corvette wheel done in blasted aluminum. I think it looks awesome other than the fact that it would collect dirt so easy. Can't imagine using it on wheels unless it was for a garage queen.

http://www.eastwood.com/images/email_images/BlastedAlum4.jpg

[ohlarikd]

Yeah, I think you are right they need some kind of clear over the 'blasted aluminum' on the seal housings. The surface is just too rough. I could probably light a match on it! I do have some 'clear' powder though, but I'll have to tape them all over again. I know I'm going to do it but what a pain. I bought 2 lbs of that powder and am wondering if I'll bother using it again.

2 lbs is a lot. I use to buy a small sample first to see if I liked it. Black I went through a ton.

As for clear, just don't get glossy, it looks like its covered in ice. Get a low gloss, or matte like I said. Try it on a test part first. You don't really want to 'see' the clearcoat, and if blasted aluminum is very matte, then try to match that sheen.

Again - taping sucks!

[iTurbo]

Looks like Eastwoods has no less than six different kinds of clear. The lowest gloss appear to be the "bare metal clear". Is that the one I should get?

http://www.eastwood.com/hotcoat-powder-coating/powders/clear-powders.html

Also, I asked this question before but didn't get a response. What do you all think of powder coating pulleys and sprockets? I want to but I'm worried about belt slippage, particularly the timing belt. I was thinking of doing them in flat black.

[ohlarikd]

Looks like Eastwoods has no less than six different kinds of clear. The lowest gloss appear to be the "bare metal clear". Is that the one I should get?

http://www.eastwood.com/hotcoat-powder-coating/powders/clear-powders.html

Also, I asked this question before but didn't get a response. What do you all think of powder coating pulleys and sprockets? I want to but I'm worried about belt slippage, particularly the timing belt. I was thinking of doing them in flat black.

Never saw Bare Metal Clear, but if it turns out like it says, then yes, I would definitely do that. It's almost an invisible coating. The gloss clear looks terrible in my opinion.

As for sprockets, etc., I wouldn't coat the belt riding surfaces - looks like more masking! Yeah!

Derek

[iTurbo]

Never saw Bare Metal Clear, but if it turns out like it says, then yes, I would definitely do that. It's almost an invisible coating. The gloss clear looks terrible in my opinion.

As for sprockets, etc., I wouldn't coat the belt riding surfaces - looks like more masking! Yeah!

Derek

Haha I was afraid you'd say that. Thanks for the help!:thumb:

[iTurbo]

So I did a TIII intake manifold last night. The powder I used is here:

http://www.roseyspowdercoating.biz/osCommerce/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=131

Quality-wise I'm happy with it. The color.....I'm really on the fence about it. The wrinkle is a lot finer which makes it a little glossier than I was hoping for. Something about the blue though; I don't know if it's too aqua or bluberry or what. Would it work on an '87 CSX or should I stop before doing the valve covers and pick a different color?

http://www.turbosedan.com/t3stuff/DSC04498.JPG

[ohlarikd]

Well if you are asking for an opinion, I don't really like that color. I guess it matches that blue on the CSX though. But I am not a fan of all kinds of crazy colors in the engine bay, always seems gimmicky to me. The only color I have like is the red in the TIII cars.

Whatever engine you are building, its going to be the nicest looking engine ever built.

[iTurbo]

To tell you the truth I'm not really a fan of it either. What I really wanted was the same blue wrinkle on some valve covers Jackson did on a TIII head. IMO the color and especially texture is much better than the intake I did. Oh well looks like I have to strip an intake all over again.:(

http://www.pbase.com/rmscott/image/66099333

Trying new colors is tricky business though. There must be at least 1/2 dozen different kinds of blue wrinkle out there. I'm also finding out that I don't like any of the wrinkle powders I got from Rosey's Powder Coating. The wrinkle is way too fine, and if you are farther than a couple feet away from the part you can't even see the texture and it just looks flat. I also tried Eastwood Black Wrinkle on two different parts and it barely wrinkled at all and ended up looking more like semi-gloss black. At this point if I could just find some nice OEM looking black and red wrinkle powders I would be happy. I'm looking at some red and black wrinkles from www.powderbuythepound.com and they look more promising. At least the example photos look nice.

As far as what I'm building, I have three TIII in my spare bedroom that I'm putting together. I have all the parts but I'm painting/finishing everything before final assembly. They will be for the 8v cars in my sig. For the most part I'm going with factory-like finishes but the valve covers/valley cover/intake manifold/snorkel plate will all have color. One set is going to be black wrinkle for sure (for my SL). The others I haven't really decided yet, but I thought the wrinkle blue would be neat for a CSX.

[GLHNSLHT2]

My old powder coater used DuPont wrinkle. Turned out exactly like factory. Just the right amount of wrinkle. I don't know how many colors DuPont makes but the black looks sweet and stock.

[iTurbo]

Thanks Jay. I haven't seen any DuPont powders anywhere on the internet. I wonder if that is something I could order through the local Sherwin-Williams?

[ohlarikd]

I wish I could remember who I used for powder. They gave me a huge sample chip set of their colors, so it was easy to decide the color. It was an industrial company. Eastwood was good for the basics, but anything fancier and I had to go to the pros.

I had an industrial Wagner gun, cost $4000. So I used good powder. Still - it was no guarantee to get a good finish. I can say that powder coating is NOT a fool proof easy process. Orange peel is a big issue.

Derek

[iTurbo]

So far I haven't been very happy with the wrinkle finishes I've tried, so today I decided to experiment with them a little more using wastegate brackets. This time I decided to lay on several coats of the powder in stages. I applied the first coat as normal and put it in the oven. After a minute or two it would flow out and turn glossy. After a couple more minutes the glossy/wet looking surface would dull and start to form the wrinkle. After the entire surface had dulled, I pulled it out of the oven and applied a second coat, repeat until I had several coats built up. I believe this is called "hot flocking" where the part is shot while it's still hot. The powder seems to adhere better when hot compared to the first coat at room temp.

Anyways, the wrinkle powders are from Rosey's. "Wrinkle Black II" and "Chestnut Wrinkle Brown". The wrinkle black was applied liberally since I was experimenting. You can see that the excess would build up along the edges. Next I did the brown and decided it would be better to place the part in the oven and wait until the wrinkle developed before pulling it out for additional coats. That seemed to work better as the powder didn't build up along the edges or sag nearly as much.

http://www.turbosedan.com/powder/DSC04500.JPG

http://www.turbosedan.com/powder/DSC04501.JPG

[iTurbo]

Here's a TII wastegate bracket in "Red Robin Wrinkle" from Rosey's. This is only the second piece I've tried in this color. The first time I laid on a thin coat and was really disappointed because there wasn't any wrinkle at all....only flat red. This time I coated it in several stages like the previous black and brown brackets. I can see texture now but it is still a little fine.

I also compared it to a FWDP TIII valley cover that was coated by whoever does FWDP powder coating. I really like the color/texture and it's a good example of what I'm striving for here. The color is a dead nuts match other than the level of sheen. If I can get more wrinkle effect somehow (I have a few ideas) it would be a little flatter and match just about perfectly. Unfortunately the camera flash makes it look a little orangish.

http://www.turbosedan.com/powder/DSC04503.JPG

http://www.turbosedan.com/powder/DSC04504.JPG

[ohlarikd]

I have uses various wrinkles, and there was nothing special I needed to do. 1 coat. Having to do several coats is just a waste of time and effort, as well as money if its a business.

I would stop using this powder company, Rosies. That red wrinkle is not even a wrinkle, its more of a bumpy surface. Wrinkles are one of the easiest things to use. The simple Eastwood wrinkles work great. Just 1 normal coat and it wrinkles perfect - no special procedures.

Derek

[iTurbo]

Wow one coat? I wish but it seems like the only way I can get texture at all is if I build it up with multiple coats. The worst was actually Eastwood wrinkle black. You could just barely tell there was some texture but for the most part it ended up being gloss black throughout the part. Maybe I'm still doing something wrong but I don't know what. I've been curing according to the directions the powder comes with.....400' F @ 10 minutes starting after flow out.

[iTurbo]

Here's a stove top drip pan I used to test the Eastwood Wrinkle Black. It didn't end up with any wrinkle at all and it smells bad. The other powders don't smell at all after cure. Possibly expired? So far wrinkles are a huge pain in the --- if you ask me.

http://www.turbosedan.com/powder/DSC04507.JPG

[ohlarikd]

I used Eastwood wrinkle black all the time. It was super easy and wrinkled GREAT. I had a Harley guy that I did all kinds of brackets and bolts with wrinkle.

Perhaps the oven is not at the correct temp when you put it in, maybe you leave it in too long... not sure but I would call Eastwood and get correct procedures. That pic you have is completely wrong - Eastwood tech support should help you. Eastwood wrinkle black comes out looking VERY wrinkled and rough.

[92spiritrt]

i've never had a problem with the eastwood wrinkle black. get a i/r thermometer. on all of the eastwood powders i have it says to bake @450 for 5 minutes(or til full flow out) then @400 for 20 minutes(other than clears and such). but i always just check it with the thermometer and once the part itself reaches 400 then i set the timer for 10 minutes.

here's how the eastwood wrinkle black looks on the stuff i've done:
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x82/92spiritrt/powder%20coating/100_0533.jpg

[iTurbo]

That looks really nice. I wish I could get results like that but so far a good wrinkle has been elusive. I'm bent on getting this down though and am going to experiment with cure times and temps a little more next. Rob, were those wrinkle black parts done in ONE coat as well??

[92spiritrt]

yes, the pieces were done in two stages but that is only because of the yellow lettering/fins. the black was only shot/cured once.

[iTurbo]

OK, I've been experimenting more with various colors of wrinkle powder in a single application. I've tried different cure times and temps and haven't really noticed much difference; it just takes longer to fully cure if I go at a lower temp. One thing that does help is getting the one coat of wrinkle on as thick and evenly as possible. If it gets too thick it seems to dimple and pile up unevenly, but I can just blow off the excess if that happens. I've also improved my grounds and now have a copper wire wrapped around the oven rack that is tied directly into the earth ground stake behind the shop about ten feet away. That definitely helped the electrostatic adhesion and it seems to go on easier than before.

I'm starting to wonder if I should be using a convection oven. Seems like the wrinkle texture turns out better in areas that have better airflow around them. Like the tops of parts will come out much better than the bottom side where the air is stagnant. Are you guys using convection ovens?

[ohlarikd]

I'm starting to wonder if I should be using a convection oven. Seems like the wrinkle texture turns out better in areas that have better airflow around them. Like the tops of parts will come out much better than the bottom side where the air is stagnant. Are you guys using convection ovens?

Hmm... that is an interesting point. I had a walk in oven, and it was convection with two fans. I even had a small toaster oven that was convention that I wrinkle-black'd some hex head bolts with. All came out great.

If it makes you feel any better - I couldn't get glossy colors to ever work to my liking. They always came out slightly orange-peeled. Nothing I did could get a nice smooth finish. I tried the different temps, different powder companies, better grounds, powder thicknesses, etc... NOTHING seemed to work. So I have been down your road, just with the opposite finish!

It is FRUSTRATING. Yes.

Derek

[Darkapollo]

I know this is an older thread.. but Im going to bump it anyway :p

I do powder coating as a side business.
Wrinkle likes to have a convection oven, but it isnt necessary. Neither of my two ovens have blower motors, and I have never had issues getting a nice wrinkle.
Wrinkles needs to be on THICK. If it doesnt wrinkle then it was too thin. I think my wrinkle powder is a 3.5mil coating.

To get a nice smooth finish you really need to watch how thick the powder is, too thin and it wont flow together and create orange-peel, too thick and it will run and sag like a bad spray paint job. Another trick I learned is 500* oven untill the part starts to flow then immediately drop it to its curing temp, and let it run for the recommended time. This will reduce orange peel about 90%. It only serves to hot-flow the powder to reduce bumps.

Also, the type of tape you use will effect the powder! If you do NOT use a 500* tape or one that can withstand constant 400* heat then you will impregnate the color with the glue and the bond will be very weak, and the color will be effected. I think that is what your problem was with the white, along with over curing. Note, white will turn a slight yellow when it is hot, but once it cools it should turn back to white.

Partially cure the pieces as well if you are going to do multiple coats. This allows them to flow together and prevents over baking. To do this, set your oven for 3/4 of the cure temp, and put the part in JUST untill it is ABOUT to gloss over (or flow out). If you have ever watched a piece from start to finish you will know exactly what to look for. BECAREFUL the powder wont come off if you touch it, but it has not yet bonded to the piece. IT WILL CHIP very easily if mishandled. Mask off your base color and apply the top color and finish baking.

As for masking, Im an old fashion type. I use a clean cloth and my finger to do the raised lettering on valve covers. If it is a recessed mask, I do the raised part first, then the recessed, and wipe it all down. This method usually provides a thicker 'shoulder' of powder to bond the upper and lower layers together so there isnt a hard edge where tape would have been.

Side note:
All of you guys crying about 350* aluminum, no where have i ever seen that aluminum will start to anneal at temps that low. Most sites cite upper 500*-800* ranges..
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=352849
http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=2540
http://www.tinmantech.com/html/aluminum_alloys_continued.php
But I know you are all metallurgists who know far more then I do...

I have powdered hundreds of parts with NO failures EVER. Every thing from engine blocks to rims and brake parts. Would I ever do a cylinder head? no. Not because of the annealing, but fear of warping. Mostly I do paintball guns, which are hand held high pressure vessels. Internal pressures reach upwards of 200psi. I have never been scared of one blowing up because the aluminum was soft.
Some examples of my work:
http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo288/kheldarq/PowderCoating/13466_129824513705067_1000003255809.jpg Black to blue fade
http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo288/kheldarq/PowderCoating/IMAG0103.jpg Purple with black veins
http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo288/kheldarq/PowderCoating/DSCF4967.jpg Super bright white
http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo288/kheldarq/PowderCoating/DSCF4891.jpg Purple with black 'acid wash'
http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo288/kheldarq/PowderCoating/DSCF4890.jpg Orange with black flames

[zin]

Side note:
All of you guys crying about 350* aluminum, no where have i ever seen that aluminum will start to anneal at temps that low. Most sites cite upper 500*-800* ranges..
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=352849
http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=2540
http://www.tinmantech.com/html/aluminum_alloys_continued.php
But I know you are all metallurgists who know far more then I do...

I have powdered hundreds of parts with NO failures EVER. Every thing from engine blocks to rims and brake parts. Would I ever do a cylinder head? no. Not because of the annealing, but fear of warping. Mostly I do paintball guns, which are hand held high pressure vessels. Internal pressures reach upwards of 200psi. I have never been scared of one blowing up because the aluminum was soft.

Sounds like you have some pretty good practical experience with decorative powder coating, which is pretty much what this thread is all about!:thumb:

But, while the info sounds good and is appreciated, I think it is dangerous to dismiss, for lack of personal knowledge/experience, the potential for danger in annealing AL (or any other structural material). Granted, these aren't aircraft that might fall out of the sky and obliterate a neighborhood, but I'd rather someone exercise caution than reckless abandon...

Here is where I take my caution from:

Aluminum cylinders known to have been exposed to overheating or showing evidence of having been overheated, with overheating being a cylinder metal temperature in excess of 350oF, must be condemned per 49 CFR 180.205 (i) (viii). No testing for acceptance or re-heat treatment is authorized.

In CGA pamphlet C-6.1; Standards For Visual Inspection of High Pressure Aluminum Gas Cylinders, it states that cylinders heated to cylinder metal temperatures in excess of 350oF (176oC) must be condemned.

Common evidence of exposure to overheating that may heat the metal temperature to 350oF (176oC) include:

* charring, blistering, or discoloration of the cylinder paint or protective coatings;


* distortion of the cylinder;


* melting of non-metallic (i.e. plastic, etc.) valve components;


* charring or burning of labels;


* activation of valve pressure relief device; or


* activation of the heat indication system.

Catalina Cylinders recommends that if there is evidence, or it is believed, that a cylinder has been exposed to overheating but the temperature of metal of the cylinder is not believed to have reached 350oF (176oC) for any duration of time, the cylinder must still be subjected to hydrostatic testing or condemned. A cylinder that has been exposed to temperatures great enough to change the temper of the cylinder could show an increase in total or permanent expansion as measured during hydrostatic testing. Cylinders showing unusually high total expansion or exceeding the regulatory limits for the relationship of permanent expansion to total expansion (i.e. DOT = 10% and TC = 6%) should be condemned.

http://www.catalinacylinders.com/dotfire.html

Please don't misunderstand, I don't want to discourage you from sharing your experience, that's all I'm doing. But, because of my experience I had to exercise my conscience.

BTW, those are some pretty cool effects you were able to achieve on some of those PB guns.. were you able to do that over the anodizing and still have it stick the same? I'm curious how well powder will adhere to differently plated/prepped surfaces...

Mike

[Darkapollo]

Actually it bonds very well to anodized aluminum. The purple barrel is black anodized underneith, and the frame on the purple gun is chrome. I have done all different types of powder over finished metals and very few have issues with bonding. Mostly it has to do with the final part metal temp and the finish metal not coming up to temp fast enough.

Pressure cylinders are different beasts, if one was visually damaged then I wouldn't use it either. In the case of SCBA /HPA with thousands of psi, any weakness could turn the tank into a bomb.