300 WHP goal, which turbo.....

[ghostrider]

Which turbo would be great to use for obtaining a 300~320 WHP goal and still being able to have immediate spool response on the tap of the throttle? I personally thought an S70 would fit the bill better than an S60 or a T3/T4. This all being said.... i'm currently using the T3/T4 50 trim stage2 wheel, exh. a/r .063 This seems to be way too laggy for my desires for the street. No pep to it and it doesn't make power until 4000 rpm range. Using a ported "G" head, but not sure of the flow#'s.

[tryingbe]

My stock TII turbo doesn't give me immediate spool response.

So, good luck finding one that does.

[87glhs232]

With a fast spool option and 3" SV & exhaust you should notice a faster spool. Not instant tho.

[Murphy]

somewhere on here someone has a thread about a t3/t4 with a .48 exhaust A/R that spools up pretty quick

all depends on your setup and how you tune it....big open exhaust(or a cutout), advanced cam timing, stuff like that

[ghostrider]

My stock TII turbo doesn't give me immediate spool response.

So, good luck finding one that does.

O.K perhaps it was read into too much!! I'm not expecting a formula 1 race car type response on the gas pedal, but i don't wanna have to wait until 4000 RPM before the turbo decides it wants to wake up and smell the coffee. Here's about as simple as i'll make it.....ride in a couple of mustang SVT cobras or saleens and notice the immediate response. Now, take several of moments to view some of the video sites on the rice cars or ? and see how they're busting outta the hole. Hell, even gary's race vid's or other's....see how they come out nice. Even at 25 yards they start creating speed/torque. I'm not getting that and to go against a toyota tercel right now would embarrass me for the 60 ft time. It's just down right dog!
BTW< i had a garrett T2 and it was mean, bad @$$ as well! Just isn't gonna get you 300~320 WHP without being overworked or worse.
Just need alittle help without the snippy remarks......

[RedDeerGLH]

Well im not expert but what car are you running this on and what year electronics are you running. Because the "G" head has a different spark curve needed to work properly and if you are running an 88 or newer electronics there all setup for swirl heads "782". I know my omni is kindof a dog out of the hole right now because im running a computer setup with the "782" head spark curve. But since this is a turbo thread i would stick with what you have for a turbo because it should spool better than that, and maybe switch over to a swirl head or change around your computer to one with a "G" head spark curve.

hope that helps
Jay

[tryingbe]

Mustangs are either V8 or Supercharge V8, throttle response is going to be a lot better than Turbo I4.

Drag racing vidoes, they are usually HIGH RPM launch with drag tires, and brake torque or slip the clutch at the line to create boost. I wouldn't recommand that for a street car.

What car do you have? What setup do you have?

My 2.5L with TII turbo GLH pulled much better than my Daytona Shelby at take off.

[Dave]

Mustangs are either V8 or Supercharge V8, throttle response is going to be a lot better than Turbo I4.

Drag racing vidoes, they are usually HIGH RPM launch with drag tires, and brake torque or slip the clutch at the line to create boost. I wouldn't recommand that for a street car.

What car do you have? What setup do you have?

My 2.5L with TII turbo GLH pulled much better than my Daytona Shelby at take off.

Yup. I launch around 2psi of boost. That's nothing compared to other people launching around 12psi. :eek:

The idea of a turbo spooling up quickly isn't so much in the design of the turbo anymore. It's in other areas. IE cam timing (advance it and you will have more low end power, but you'll sacrifice high end power), amount of fuel (mine's a pig because I'm rich as Uncle PennyBags - 50psi static pressure and 42pph's, plus the fact that I don't have a charge air temp. sensor and the comp. thinks I do), entire exhaust side (our engines benefit way more on the exhaust side of the formula), port that manifold, hell build a head if yeh can, match the turbine housing to it, get a huge swingvalve, 3" is ideal, and get a big fat short exhaust... the less restriction the better. Get a 3" downpipe and a cut out.

Now since this is the turbo section you can build your own turbo that will spool great and with those above mentioned items you "could" hit full boost by 2,800 RPMs. It's been done. I'd go with a T3/T4 Hybrid with a stage 2 wheel. The idea behind turbos is that the faster you spin the turbine the quicker it will spool. If you have less mass on the turbine it will spool up much quicker.

But if you have the money just buy a dual ball bearing turbo. I've seen them on sale for $900.

[GLHSKEN]

46 trim t3/4 with a 53 housing and stock wheel... I've run an S70 on a 2.2L.. she was lazy to spool with the stock turbine and a .63 housing. (this was also with a stock head) That turbo is now on a 2.5L Daytona just getting ready to come out of the garage.

Super 60 you are still pushing it to hard for 300whp.

[JuXsA]

I think the T3T4 with a super 50 or normal 50 trim and a stage1 .63 housing and it would spool pretty nicely... I wish I had done that instead of the stage2

[John B]

The downside is that a stage 1 wheel is a restriction when you're after real power.

[show-off]

A nicely ported 782 w/ 3" sv & exhuast and a good IC will easily make 300whp with the Super 60 and be in its efficiency range.

I have been in a lot of turbo cars and my Super 60 was very quick spooling with my set-up, and I would have easily hit 300 whp with my car if it was properly tuned.

[ghostrider]

A nicely ported 782 w/ 3" sv & exhuast and a good IC will easily make 300whp with the Super 60 and be in its efficiency range.

I have been in a lot of turbo cars and my Super 60 was very quick spooling with my set-up, and I would have easily hit 300 whp with my car if it was properly tuned.

Sorry so late getting back to this. However, i sold the T3/T4 and "G" head. Now on to getting the swirl (ported) and perhaps a M.P turbo (Smaller comp side , .063 a/r exh. side) Who knows.....perhaps something even milder in both head/turbo. Thing is, to re-evaluate and try again later. :nod:

As it stands now, i have all the other supporting aspects/mods that most of you suggested. I always did. Perhaps i failed to mention it.... A full 3" from the SV back system, bottom end, (had the turbo :banghead:) , tranny, etc, etc.....
Never the less, it was more/less a matter of getting the right cal to the right setup. I have a fantastic cal in Paul V's setup that he's done for me.....just never got the chance to experience it as i got raped on my original head job(from Mike Sanders of Turbodynamx). Paul had my cal set for that setup and it was gonna be what i expected i'm sure. I've had cal's from him before and was never let down :thumb: ......Just wish i could get him to talk with me again to help me out on another cal :(
Nevertheless, figured with what i have from him now i just need to get that setup again and i'll be in business :thumb:
I'd put up some pic's, but first i need to get over to the contribution table :D
Standby.......:eyebrows:

[turbovanman²]

Just stick with an S60, you'll be very happy and it will get you close to your goals. You can always drive it for 6 months, etc and upgrade later after you get all the bugs worked out, and actually driven the car.

[Rattlesnake]

782 FM head, stock intake, stock exhaust man, t3/t4 46trim .63a/r stage 2 wheel. 321whp@5200 and 391lbs/ft@4200 @ 32psi. Full boost @ 3200-3500rpm.:eyebrows:

[ghostrider]

782 FM head, stock intake, stock exhaust man, t3/t4 46trim .63a/r stage 2 wheel. 321whp@5200 and 391lbs/ft@4200 @ 32psi. Full boost @ 3200-3500rpm.:eyebrows:

NOW THAT"S WHAT I CALL BOOST"N :thumb:
As for an update, i'm getting a T3/T4 46 trim with the stage1 turbine section. The comp housing i'm not too sure off hand, but i do know it's like the super 60's housing with the stock outlet so i won't have to weld a 90* elbow on it. The head will be a 782 (stock from gary donovan). Nothing fancy....just that it's to be reliable.
Rattlesnake.....what exactly is done to that 782 head (flow#'s :eyebrows: )
stock intake and manifold, yet all that power???? WTF :confused: enlighten me please (I see the boost levels, but how without detonation / knock issues) California gas SUCKS BAD.....damn 91 octane

[ghostrider]

Just stick with an S60, you'll be very happy and it will get you close to your goals. You can always drive it for 6 months, etc and upgrade later after you get all the bugs worked out, and actually driven the car.

Picked up something similar from FWDP, t3/t4 46trim super 60 housing, .063 a/r exh. side stage1.

BTW, i've driven the car from time to time, just not recently. It ran like a big dog when in boost. Just wasn't all quite there due to different cal's, motor setups, cam timing, and/or fuel tuning. Felt as if those variables weren't in the way......holly smokes it wouldv'e been fast :thumb:

[Rattlesnake]

NOW THAT"S WHAT I CALL BOOST"N :thumb:
As for an update, i'm getting a T3/T4 46 trim with the stage1 turbine section. The comp housing i'm not too sure off hand, but i do know it's like the super 60's housing with the stock outlet so i won't have to weld a 90* elbow on it. The head will be a 782 (stock from gary donovan). Nothing fancy....just that it's to be reliable.
Rattlesnake.....what exactly is done to that 782 head (flow#'s :eyebrows: )
stock intake and manifold, yet all that power???? WTF :confused: enlighten me please (I see the boost levels, but how without detonation / knock issues) California gas SUCKS BAD.....damn 91 octane
I know what you mean about the detonation, I had the knocking above 19 psi regardless of 110 that I used to run and also retarding timing. I was running 22psi and I was getting aggrivating by the knocking. I'm a F1 freak and I remenber reading 15 years ago or so about the tiny 1.5 Liters turbo F1 BMW was putting 1000+hp at 60psi @ 11000rpm:eek: . Their secret was water injection, so I decided to explore. Bought a kit for a Mustang and installed in my car. After trying with different nozzle sizes I finally got it running clean with no misfire. And finally, up to this day detonation is a forgotten issue. I brought the boost to 36psi and the timming +4 degrees and knocking wasn't heard nor seen on the scanner. Results: The Water/meth itself will not give you hp, is what you do with it. By bringing the boost from 22 to 32 and advancing timming 4 degrees and add to that the always cool/high oxigen dense air from the water/meth injection went from 258hp to 321hp and from 276lbs/ft to 391. That is the secret that I've enjoyed for 3 years.:thumb:
As of the head, it is a FM stage 3 fully ported and over sized valves.

[JDAWG]

782 FM head, stock intake, stock exhaust man, t3/t4 46trim .63a/r stage 2 wheel. 321whp@5200 and 391lbs/ft@4200 @ 32psi. Full boost @ 3200-3500rpm.:eyebrows:
curious, what cal?

[Rattlesnake]

curious, what cal?
Relentless 2bar cal. Not 3bar, 2bar +40 and a fuel pressure raiser to keep a/f beyond 14psi in check.

[John B]

Rattlesnake.....what exactly is done to that 782 head (flow#'s :eyebrows: )
stock intake and manifold, yet all that power???? What he has done is apply over two atmospheres of pressure to it. At 32 psi that amount of power would be expected!

[turbovanman²]

Their secret was water injection, so I decided to explore. Bought a kit for a Mustang and installed in my car. After trying with different nozzle sizes I finally got it running clean with no misfire. And finally, up to this day detonation is a forgotten issue. I brought the boost to 36psi and the timming +4 degrees and knocking wasn't heard nor seen on the scanner. Results: The Water/meth itself will not give you hp, is what you do with it. By bringing the boost from 22 to 32 and advancing timming 4 degrees and add to that the always cool/high oxigen dense air from the water/meth injection went from 258hp to 321hp and from 276lbs/ft to 391. That is the secret that I've enjoyed for 3 years.:thumb:


I was loving my homemade setup till my diff went boom, lol! It does work and I will probably buy a real kit down the road, :eyebrows:

[Rattlesnake]

What he has done is apply over two atmospheres of pressure to it. At 32 psi that amount of power would be expected!
:nod: Exactly, the cal was intented for one atmos (14.+psi) for the other one mechanical enrichment was required. Without the water/meth at that boost level (32) it sounded like somebody playing drums on a Coca-Cola glass bottle.

[JDAWG]

hmm interesting

[ssheen]

300whp and what turbo, I think it depends on if you are going the brute force method or efficiency method. By brute force I mean just slap a turbo on and bump the boost until your goal is reached. Efficiency I mean, port the oil hole, the water pump, windage tray, crank scraper, lighter rotational mass, bigger exhaust, bigger SV, ported head, ported exhaust mani, better IC. Things that can free up HP already there. Then the turbo selected can do its thing easier.

[Rattlesnake]

300whp and what turbo, I think it depends on if you are going the brute force method or efficiency method. By brute force I mean just slap a turbo on and bump the boost until your goal is reached. Efficiency I mean, port the oil hole, the water pump, windage tray, crank scraper, lighter rotational mass, bigger exhaust, bigger SV, ported head, ported exhaust mani, better IC. Things that can free up HP already there. Then the turbo selected can do its thing easier.
By the description of his hardware, I'm pretty sure that in your terms means brute force.
Brute force=cheap power
Efficiecy Method=$$$$$sheesheenn$$$

Right?

[ssheen]

LOL,

RS, your costing is probably correct.

[Ondonti]

NOW THAT"S WHAT I CALL BOOST"N :thumb:
As for an update, i'm getting a T3/T4 46 trim with the stage1 turbine section. The comp housing i'm not too sure off hand, but i do know it's like the super 60's housing with the stock outlet so i won't have to weld a 90* elbow on it. The head will be a 782 (stock from gary donovan). Nothing fancy....just that it's to be reliable.
Rattlesnake.....what exactly is done to that 782 head (flow#'s :eyebrows: )
stock intake and manifold, yet all that power???? WTF :confused: enlighten me please (I see the boost levels, but how without detonation / knock issues) California gas SUCKS BAD.....damn 91 octane unless you are managing to sell back your 50 trim you might as well have just kept the 50 trim and installed a stage 1 turbine.


If you think there will be a noticable difference between the 46 and 50 trim compressor wheels and your boost threshold, then you dont know much about turbos. The turbine wheel weighs 10x+ what the compressor wheel does and changing it will maybe change your max boost rpm by 25 rpms if anything at all, seriously.

[ghostrider]

unless you are managing to sell back your 50 trim you might as well have just kept the 50 trim and installed a stage 1 turbine.


If you think there will be a noticable difference between the 46 and 50 trim compressor wheels and your boost threshold, then you dont know much about turbos. The turbine wheel weighs 10x+ what the compressor wheel does and changing it will maybe change your max boost rpm by 25 rpms if anything at all, seriously.

WOW>>>So you're saying that changing from my 50 trim with an exh side of .063 stage 2 turbine,.......to a 46 trim wheel (super 60 housing) and a stage 1 turbine with the .063 housing won't yield differences?? That the new setup WON'T spoolup any faster and that i wouldn't see any changes?? Doesn't seem to add up right. In any case, changing out the turbine wheel would've meant sending it out, balanced, etc. then sent back which all equals money spent near to the fact of what this whole sell of the turbo and replace it with something already set up (with warrantee). BTW, the turbo sold for what costs i'm having to replace it.....hence, no money lost.
Oh yeah, you're right....i don't obviously know squat about turbos compared to the almighty....YOU!, but i bet you don't know how to fix airplanes. In short, not everyone knows everything. Therefore the remark about ..."then you don't know anything about turbos..." is uncalled for. Just keep it simple with a useful reply and stop trying to show up someone.
BTW, what you wrote.....is that FACT or SPECULATION? Any proof to back up that statement? Apparently if they're selling/making turbos with these meager differences, then there must be some good from it, otherwise it would be wasting time / materials.

[ghostrider]

To ONDONTI....
The listed below is Rattlesnakes powerline...notice the turbo...hummmmm
only difference is the stage2 wheel as oppose to the stage1 that i'm going for. Oh what else do we see here, stock manifolds (both)...It would only appear that RS knows what he's doing!

782 FM head, stock intake, stock exhaust man, t3/t4 46trim .63a/r stage 2 wheel. 321whp@5200 and 391lbs/ft@4200 @ 32psi. Full boost @ 3200-3500rpm.

[Whorse]

WOW>>>So you're saying that changing from my 50 trim with an exh side of .063 stage 2 turbine,.......to a 46 trim wheel (super 60 housing) and a stage 1 turbine with the .063 housing won't yield differences?? That the new setup WON'T spoolup any faster and that i wouldn't see any changes?? Doesn't seem to add up right. In any case, changing out the turbine wheel would've meant sending it out, balanced, etc. then sent back which all equals money spent near to the fact of what this whole sell of the turbo and replace it with something already set up (with warrantee). BTW, the turbo sold for what costs i'm having to replace it.....hence, no money lost.
Oh yeah, you're right....i don't obviously know squat about turbos compared to the almighty....YOU!, but i bet you don't know how to fix airplanes. In short, not everyone knows everything. Therefore the remark about ..."then you don't know anything about turbos..." is uncalled for. Just keep it simple with a useful reply and stop trying to show up someone.
BTW, what you wrote.....is that FACT or SPECULATION? Any proof to back up that statement? Apparently if they're selling/making turbos with these meager differences, then there must be some good from it, otherwise it would be wasting time / materials.

Yeah I agree. That's what TD is for. I will agree that the exhaust side will have a greater effect on spoolup than the compressor side though.

[turbovanman²]

The turbine side can hurt or help you. Stage 2 is perfect for our 8 valve cars, Stage 3 is laggy as hell, ask me how I know, :( it will be great on an 16 valve engine, which should be early next year. :nod:

[GLHSKEN]

Stage III works GREAT on a 2.5 with the right head. T say it is laggy as hell means you've just never seen a well tuned machine. Heck... The car I'm talking about now has a stage V and is lighting the slicks in second.

Glad this thread is turning the right direction again. We are here to provide help..

Exhaust side does have a greater effect... but the trim and pitch of the compressor DO play a role.

[Rattlesnake]

Common guys, apologize to eachother, we are all brothers here!:nod: Everything affects turbo spool up; turbine wheel design, compressor wheel diameter and specially the housing a/r. Also note that the comp wheel size affects turbo response which affects spool speed. A smaller comp wheel for ex. a 46 pressurizes the intecooler, pipes and intake faster than a 50 due to the difference in diameter. But the down side is that looses its efficiency at top end. It is like when you change tire size to a bigger one, your take off speed will suffer but once you are rolling at speed you will be flying. Check out this specs:
68mm comp wheel, stage 5 wheel, .48ar.
That is my turbo set up now and I only have 500rpm loss on spool up. At 3900-4000rpm I have full boost (30) at a very fast rate.:thumb: I upted for the .48 to keep the spool speed rate and throttle response which is not much different from the T46/.63ar. The only bad thing is that it has to pass 3900rpm to keep spooling, if it is below that it will be at 10psi at about 2000-3000.

[turbovanman²]

Stage III works GREAT on a 2.5 with the right head. T say it is laggy as hell means you've just never seen a well tuned machine. Heck... The car I'm talking about now has a stage V and is lighting the slicks in second.

Glad this thread is turning the right direction again. We are here to provide help..

Exhaust side does have a greater effect... but the trim and pitch of the compressor DO play a role.

That is true but how many of us can afford a Steve M head that can take advantage of a Stage III. Contraption has pointed out that the difference between a stage II and Stage III wheel is nothing, except the III wheel is laggy. If I wasn't going 16 valve, stage 2 is the way to go.
BTW, now I have my nice ported homemade head, bigger IC and S2 cam, lag is almost non existant. :nod: I can fry the tires no problem at 15 psi.

[puppet]

68mm comp wheel, stage 5 wheel, .48ar.
That is my turbo set up now and I only have 500rpm loss on spool up. At 3900-4000rpm I have full boost (30) at a very fast rate.:thumb: I upted for the .48 to keep the spool speed rate and throttle response which is not much different from the T46/.63ar. The only bad thing is that it has to pass 3900rpm to keep spooling, if it is below that it will be at 10psi at about 2000-3000.So is the Stage 5 turbine reducing the normally higher backpressure you'd see when combined with the smaller housing? How does it pull around 6000 RPM?

[Ondonti]

I would suggest reading my post and understanding the point before spouting off 5 pages of garbage.


Going to a different turbine for your goals is a good idea. My current choice is a t351 (stage v housing)ported to accept a T4 P trim wheel. The T3 exhaust wheels are old designs and if you look at one compared to a more recent wheel it makes you want to cry.

The change in compressor will accomplish NOTHING except give you higher outlet temps.

You should be matching your compressor trim to your engine, not picking a # that is bigger or smaller then someone elses. That does show you dont know what you are doing.

Yes it is Newtonian physics that says I am correct about spoolup between different to4e compressor wheels. Plus, I would bet the 46 trim will push less air then a 50 trim at the same shaft speed. Aka the turbo will spool a little slower if you were using the same exact turbine setup.

[Rattlesnake]

So is the Stage 5 turbine reducing the normally higher backpressure you'd see when combined with the smaller housing? How does it pull around 6000 RPM?
Yes, you got it right. It pulls very hard at only 12psi between 4000-6800, that's when I let off, and the pulling was progressive; the higher it went the harder it pulled. I have to take it to the dyno to tune the fuel for 30psi and then I'll be able to tell you exactly.

[puppet]

Yes, you got it right. It pulls very hard at only 12psi between 4000-6800, that's when I let off, and the pulling was progressive; the higher it went the harder it pulled. I have to take it to the dyno to tune the fuel for 30psi and then I'll be able to tell you exactly.
Looking forward to your results. What your doing with the smaller housing right now is pretty remarkable.

[Koreth]

One thing I've looked for in all these posts but haven't been able to find is what engine sizes people have been using with these various turbo setups. 18 more cubic inches may not seem like alot, but the extra torque and the extra volume of exhuast gasses can make a turbo seem alot more responsive.

[Whorse]

Very good point. I often wonder if the 2.2's higher rev capabilities is really worth it because most of the high power cars are 2.5s, but it seems a lot of the top end ones are still 2.2s.

[Koreth]

My concern is mainly with streetability. My target HP is near that of the original poster (his was 320, I'm shooting for 350). So when I read "X turbo is laggy, Y turbo spools faster" I think, is it laggy only on the 2.2 or on the 2.5 as well? Something that lags on the 2.5 is probably not going to make for a good street turbo.

[Putter]

What are opinions of a super 70 with a .63 hot side factory wheel or stage 1 or like a 50trim t4 instead of the GN wheel in the T3 housing? Will that go over 340whp?

[JuXsA]

I have been told that a holset turbo, like the one on the Cummins ram spools faster then a TO4E 50 trim. You should get in touch with lonewolfperformance and talk with them

IMO for a hot street combo would be a a TO4E 50 trim or Super50 trim with a stage1 .63 on a 2.5

Some one with a 2.2 was using a 50trim with a stage3 .48 and they said it spooled like no ones business.... cant remember if its this thread or not:D

[8valves]

Yes, you got it right. It pulls very hard at only 12psi between 4000-6800, that's when I let off, and the pulling was progressive; the higher it went the harder it pulled. I have to take it to the dyno to tune the fuel for 30psi and then I'll be able to tell you exactly.

Something VERY perdinent here that has not been covered is wastegate's. Are you running a larger diameter puck, or have you moved to an external?

Having a larger wastegate will allow turbine A/R to be reduced while keeping the same wheel size, and still keeping all of the top end charactersiticts in check.

AM