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lotsaboost
11-11-2009, 07:52 PM
OK cronies. Just wanted to start a thread specifically on the All new Skunkworks 2010 AWD Omni SRT4!(just kidding). I have to start this thread to answer any and all questions on the hatch as it's getting too difficult through emails, PM's, phone calls etc. to keep track of who asked what. I'll start off by adding a link to my photobucket account where you'll see pics and a video. I'll add more pics if someone wants to see something specific. http://s113.photobucket.com/albums/n224/lotsaboost/AWD%20Omni%20GLH/

So far the car drives great. Handles great. Nice smooth and quiet suspension. Launches like a rocket! Six 6,000 rpm launches and several around the 2,000 to 3,000 range(clutch smells bad now and it don't work). I really don't know what else to add other than it's not as difficult to do as it sounds and I like it so much that my '84 Charger is getting the AWD treatment, however the hatch will continue to be the test mule. So...check it out and let me know what ya think.

Also, maybe we can get this to be a sticky or maybe get an all new AWD forum started so we can put our minds together and really get this thing optimized.

Carlos

bakes
11-11-2009, 08:16 PM
Thanks Carlos for sharing the info and the R&D that went it to it !!!
I hate to say this but now you have to see were the weak links are going to show up if any.

mike radowski
11-11-2009, 08:21 PM
Thanks for documenting everything. This is an awesome project. I wish I could have my old rampage back so I could give it the AWD treatment.

omni_840
11-11-2009, 08:28 PM
Totally awesome thread! Thanks for the link :)

lotsaboost
11-11-2009, 08:29 PM
Man, if you could see the way I was launching it, you'd wonder if there are any weak links in it. I'm really looking forward to my new clutch setup:evil:
you have to see were the weak links are going to show up if any.

I wish I could have my old rampage back so I could give it the AWD treatment.Oh man what a setup that would be! BTW, I finally logged on at TD and replied to your PM's. Sorry it took so long to reply. That is one of the reasons for starting this thread.

iTurbo
11-11-2009, 08:30 PM
Just awesome. Very cool you are willing to share the info. Probably not something I will ever do because my fab skills are seriously lacking but it sure is cool to see! Car must be a riot to drive.

bakes
11-11-2009, 08:52 PM
Thats what im talking about who needs a twostep just dump her of the rev limiter:evil::eyebrows:

glhs399
11-11-2009, 09:19 PM
Do you have a spec sheet for what you used for the conversion?

Captain Chaos
11-11-2009, 09:25 PM
Do you have a spec sheet for what you used for the conversion?

+1. Like what you took from the donor and what exactly the donor was.

karlak
11-11-2009, 10:05 PM
sweet :clap:

cordes
11-11-2009, 10:11 PM
In on one. Thanks for taking the time to share the fruits of your laboring.

bradp
11-11-2009, 10:30 PM
I'm sure Mike will be drooling over your pages until he gets his finished.

BadAssPerformance
11-11-2009, 10:40 PM
It was nice to see you and cool to check out your AWD Omni at Turbopalooza! :thumb: Wish you coulda stayed longer tho :(

I moved your thread to the "project log" section where you can archive all of your progress :thumb:

Vigo
11-11-2009, 10:41 PM
A rampage would be easy since it is already leaf-sprung rear.. just use a live axle from a small automobile that you can get a matching gear ratio in.



I want to know all about the tricks of using the AWD 604 differential carrier with the 5spd ring gear and whatever associated mods that takes.. got pics??

Hooray this thread!

lotsaboost
11-11-2009, 11:04 PM
The rearend is off of an '01 and later Caravan. The PTU is off a '91 Caravan. I had to use the early PTU as it's got a gear like the Omni allowing me to run the stock speedo cable. For a non-cable driven speedo you could use everything off the '01 van. The driveshaft was shortened by a local 4X4 shop to fit the L-body.

It was nice to see you and cool to check out your AWD Omni at Turbopalooza! Mutual sentiments brutha. It's always good to see the FWD mopar heavy hitters. Inspiration.

I moved your thread to the "project log" section where you can archive all of your progress Sweet.

I'm sure Mike will be drooling over your pages until he gets his finished.Wait 'til he sees the videos after I get the new clutch in! Doh!

Reaper1
11-11-2009, 11:53 PM
I LOVE this project...'nuff said!

CSXRT4
11-12-2009, 12:22 AM
You are freaking awesome... That about sums it up I think :thumb:


Its crazy to think that some of these cars are 25+ years old and you are the first to do this conversion. I think it makes TMs that much more special because they may not have the popularity but they definitely have the potential to whoop on any other tuner car.



Hoping to see some more of these conversions done. I know mine will be done this winter! What are your thoughts on the strength of the driveshaft joints???

glhs727
11-12-2009, 08:07 AM
nice set-up. :hail:
Where's the track video?

Garffus
11-12-2009, 09:58 AM
Its crazy to think that some of these cars are 25+ years old and you are the first to do this conversion.

Crazy indeed, but when the GODS of FWDmopar say 'it can't be done' and 'its crap, can't handle any power' the masses follow and never take the initiative.. very sad, but great it finally happened.

2.216VTurbo
11-12-2009, 10:39 AM
It takes lots of extra time and effort during a build project to lay out shots and take pics. I'm glad you put the extra effort in to share what you've done:amen: Did any of the 6K launches net you a good 60':eyebrows:? Share!

DC Turismo
11-12-2009, 10:50 AM
All I gotta say is........ WOW! :eek: Awesome job man, more pics though! More pics!

Mario
11-12-2009, 11:05 AM
Thanks for the extra details Carlos. I haven't checked out the thread that you posted a long time ago on boostedmopar.com


Thanks for documenting everything. This is an awesome project. I wish I could have my old rampage back so I could give it the AWD treatment.

Nice to see you over here Mike!

Captain Chaos
11-12-2009, 11:12 AM
Another AWD swap:
http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=248628&hilit=neopreza

335glhs87
11-12-2009, 03:37 PM
yeah, for those who didnt get to see it in person, I got to see it on the lift at work, and man it is a beautiful thing, and there is nothing funnier than seeing a mexican in an ugly gold omni that sounds like a peterbuilt semi turbo.:lol:.... and Carlos we need to get it back out one of these weekends so we can have a good laugh, Ill bring the video camera:eyebrows: since my GLHS is done for the year!

lotsaboost
11-12-2009, 03:54 PM
I did them on the street(my girlfriend lives out in the sticks). I was trying to dial the boost in and check out the clutch for the Turbopalooza event. Track time is limited. But stay tuned, I'll get the vid's out once the clutch is in.
Did any of the 6K launches net you a good 60'

It never happened. Did something very stupid at the track. Got to the track with only 45 mins. left to race. In my frantic hurriedness, while installing the driveshaft, I left the u-joint cap retainers finger tight. Well the caps fell out as I was driving it to tech and that was the end of that. Which, BTW, summed up the kind of day I was having
Where's the track video?

It's beautiful ugliness! Just like my first girlfriend, it's only ugly on the outside.
and man it is a beautiful thing

Si senior
Carlos we need to get it back out one of these weekends so we can have a good laugh

johnl
11-12-2009, 04:21 PM
Repeating what has been said - it takes extra work to take the pics and document and we do appreciate it. Congrats on a job well done.

zin
11-12-2009, 07:07 PM
Glad to see the hard work and research paying off, that and not accepting the naysayers conclusion of impossibility!

You have a cutting torch and a welder?

You can do ANYTHING!!:lol::lol:

Mike

PS Made some head-way on the garage yesterday, almost have a place to work on stuff now...

rbryant
11-12-2009, 07:28 PM
Good job.

I was a naysayer myself but you have gone beyond what most would be willing to do including the full custom rear end and the gas tank move.

How much of a safety risk is having the gas tank there without any guard? I know lots of cars have a gas tank behind the axle but I have to assume that there was some thought in how the rear would crumple with the gas tank in that position.

When does the work on an Independent Rear version start? :)

-Rich

Aries_Turbo
11-12-2009, 08:19 PM
i cant wait to start diving into my AWD conversion! :)

Nice job dude. Im going to stick with the caravan rear beam and narrow it.

Brian

Vigo
11-12-2009, 08:43 PM
Nice job dude. Im going to stick with the caravan rear beam and narrow it.

Dont do that, its too simple and sensical! :p

I am beginning my earnest attempts at AWD project planning.


I still would like to know a good run-down on putting the 5spd ring gear on the 604 awd differential carrier. Is it already somewhere else?

spoolinhard
11-12-2009, 08:56 PM
Crazy indeed, but when the GODS of FWDmopar say 'it can't be done' and 'its crap, can't handle any power' the masses follow and never take the initiative.. very sad, but great it finally happened.

I agree. i remember someone getting crucified by the naysayers when They brought this up. Becuase of this I couldnt believe someone actually did it. Congrats!

Also, I see that You have an Indy intake, I know exactly why you couldnt use it:p

lotsaboost
11-12-2009, 10:54 PM
I gave up trying to find my original notes & pics. I was moving during the project & stuff got lost during it all. I'll do my best to describe what to do. To start with, you'll need the driver side 5spd bearing retainer bored out to accept the AWD bearing race. You'll have to use the 5spd ring gear on the AWD diff case. You will have to mount the ring gear on the opposite side of the flange that it normally mounts to on the diff case. Also, the ring gear has to be flipped around when mounting it. This allows you to mount the final drive into the 5spd housing. Now, the ring to pinion backlash will be off by a few thousandths from factory specs which is actually a good thing for what we're trying to accomplish. To correct this, you'll have to machine the ring gear mounting surface to the difference that it is off of from the factory specs. This machining will also allow you to center the ring gear onto the flange as it machines a groove to use for the centering onto the flange. The bearing preload will be set by shimming the PTU bearing retainer used on the extension housing side of the trans. The PTU retainer bolt holes will not align with the 5spd holes. If you look at the trans extension housing directly, & look at the hole at the upper left and use it as a guide to tap the remaining holes, then this will set the PTU to the same angle to the engine as it was on the v6. Now you're set and you have 5spd with AWD.
Or...you can use the mighty 604 and be done with it.
I still would like to know a good run-down on putting the 5spd ring gear on the 604 awd differential carrier. Is it already somewhere else?
I would be a good idea to shield the tank. Especially with some tracks strictly enforcing NHRA type of rules. I'd also like to add that a lot of things will be corrected/improved as time goes on. As you can see from the pics, I left a lot of things in their "raw" state. That is, I didn't paint/powder any of the suspension parts. Heck, I still have all the weld spatter on everything. And, it's not that I don't pay attention to detail, it's just that I didn't know exactly how this was going to turn out so I did things the "quick" way for now.
How much of a safety risk is having the gas tank there without any guard?
For the initial prototype, the Dedion was the best option. Very easy to work with, handles similar to an IRS, and it works great for drag racing. I see now why Shelby used it.
When does the work on an Independent Rear version start?

Reaper1
11-13-2009, 12:44 AM
I know it's already been said that it is a VERY close fit(grinding needed) to fit the AWD transfer case to a 2.2/2.5 set-up, but I wonder if sourcing a Mexican A604 with the 2.2/2.5 belhousing, building it up and then sticking the AWD stuff in it would be an option!? That could be a SICK combo!

rbryant
11-13-2009, 03:11 AM
For the initial prototype, the Dedion was the best option. Very easy to work with, handles similar to an IRS, and it works great for drag racing. I see now why Shelby used it.

Very interesting...

I am sort of real wheel drive challenged having spent most of my time around FWD cars.

It is interesting to look into the De Dion setups that exist. It looks like you skipped the telescoping axle option for instance.

What are the rear hubs/brakes from? They obviously are smaller rear disks but they also need to accept a drive axle...

Thanks,

Rich

ShelGame
11-13-2009, 08:37 AM
Here's the Chrysler patent for the (I think) AWD Daytona rear suspension. It looks to me like this setup would fit nicely in place of the current beam axle...

Daytona AWD Rear (De-Dion) (http://www.google.com/patents?id=YoE4AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false)

There's also a patent for an IRS...

IRS Patent (http://www.google.com/patents?id=oHkiAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false)

Captain Chaos
11-13-2009, 09:04 AM
I need to go through all of my old MOPAR magazines from the 80's and early 90's, there was an article about Shelby's shop and a quick pic and maybe a paragraph about a 1st gen Daytona that was being tested with an AWD setup.

Reaper1
11-13-2009, 11:55 AM
Wow...that IRS looks like a cluster f*ck! I mean, yeah, it works, but there are links and bars and crap EVERYWHERE! I'm GLAD they didn't do that....holy crap!

karlak
11-13-2009, 03:01 PM
Nice stuff
Rob where do you find the patents?

ShelGame
11-13-2009, 04:49 PM
google.com/patents

I put links to a bunch of the cool patents in the KC :thumb:

glhs399
11-13-2009, 06:14 PM
Another AWD swap:
http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=248628&hilit=neopreza


I've seen Erik's subieneon, He use to rallycross it a few years ago. Worked well!

lotsaboost
11-13-2009, 06:16 PM
I'm using the front hubs from the '91 van. The rear axles slide ride in.
The rotors are from unvented '89 Daytona Shelby.
What are the rear hubs/brakes from?

Vigo
11-13-2009, 06:17 PM
Thanks very much Lotsaboost for the Differential stuff explanation!!:thumb:

It sounds simpler than i assumed.. i was thinking a spacer would be needed.

Now to go back to planning..:love:

88C/S
11-13-2009, 06:56 PM
I remember asking about using the Caravan setup on another forum a couple of years ago. Was told it wouldn't hold up. Glad you proved them wrong. Can't wait to see the videos on how she runs. Great job and thanks for the pics and document! :thumb:

lotsaboost
11-14-2009, 12:58 AM
They appear to be pretty stout. I'll know more when I get the new clutch in. I didn't want to say anything without concrete numbers but during the brief thrashing, it felt to be around the low 12 high 11 sec. range. with the not so perfect tuning that it currently has.
What are your thoughts on the strength of the driveshaft joints???

ShadowBrad
11-14-2009, 06:56 AM
This is so freaking awesome. I'm glad somebody finally took the initiative to finally try this and see whether or not it would actually work and hold up to some serious power. Can't wait to see some video of it launching and to see how it holds up long term.
Awesome fabrication work too by the way!

-brad

Ondonti
11-14-2009, 07:17 AM
I remember asking about using the Caravan setup on another forum a couple of years ago. Was told it wouldn't hold up. Glad you proved them wrong. Can't wait to see the videos on how she runs. Great job and thanks for the pics and document! :thumb:

That kind of talk happened here too :thumb:
And thats sorta the reason the AWD threads on TM died even though all of us that were posting "there" were posting here.

Its too bad some people have to "see it to believe it";)
Faith and perseverance are key reasons this car is running.

A.J.
11-14-2009, 08:36 PM
Good job. :thumb:

I was never in the camp of "it can't be done." Anything is possible with enough time, money, and talent. And seeing that the TM crowd is a bunch of cheapskates (me included) it just didn't seem worth the time and money for something with so little to moderate gain. Especially if it's a daily driver. You can't lay up your car that long trying to fab stuff up. I have a van that would be a good victim to experiment with AWD and I still didn't bother. I get such crappy gas milage I don't need the extra weight for something I don't really need. Unlike rear A/C. :thumb:

A.J.

CSXRT4
11-14-2009, 09:09 PM
That kind of talk happened here too :thumb:
And thats sorta the reason the AWD threads on TM died even though all of us that were posting "there" were posting here.

Its too bad some people have to "see it to believe it";)
Faith and perseverance are key reasons this car is running.

Not to start an argument over it but im pretty sure I saw a lot more "that wont work, the PTU isnt strong enough" over on TD.com (especially by phantomrt). I think the threads died out on this site because nobody really made any progress to talk about over the summer (aside from carlos).

I think most of the members on this site are very positive and optimistic about trying new things :thumb:

Ondonti
11-14-2009, 09:42 PM
Not to start an argument over it but im pretty sure I saw a lot more "that wont work, the PTU isnt strong enough" over on TD.com (especially by phantomrt). I think the threads died out on this site because nobody really made any progress to talk about over the summer (aside from carlos).

I think most of the members on this site are very positive and optimistic about trying new things :thumb:

Attributing the comments of 1 person to a website is sorta silly. Thats like saying Pope represents TM and TD and well some grumpy people might disagree :p

The naysayer threads were all in the RWD sections. I started new threads that were meant to be based on fact, not fiction. The MOMENT Carlos stated he got thing things to work for the PTU/DIFF etc, I went junkyard hopping for AWD parts :eyebrows:
Fact>fiction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Carlos = fact, bad threads = fiction.

The reality is that there are many ways to go about this project. I orginally tried to buy a bad motor VR4 but that fell through. You could EASILY adapt Evo or other awd setups that put the motor on the passenger side in transverse setup. I say easy because I have a friend who offered to do the bellhousing adapter work with me since he does custom motor/trans installs for fun. The other threads were never concentrating on OEM minivan parts. These new AWD threads are meant to concentrate on what can be done with the OEM AWD system, not "what possible ways can we go AWD."

Using OEM parts just gives a weird satisfying "fuh you" to a lot of people. :love:

If I built a vr4 type awd shadow, that just wouldn't be very representative of what my OEM platform could do. AWD with minivan parts, now thats cookin!

Anyone who hasn't, read the AWD threads, there is a LOT of good stuff. :hail: Don't read the "what if I put a 4x4 blah blah into my car would I run 10's" or "awd is a waste of time, buy slicks" crap.

AWD is meant for 4 slicks :amen:

Vigo
11-15-2009, 11:38 AM
That kind of talk happened here too
And thats sorta the reason the AWD threads on TM died even though all of us that were posting "there" were posting here.

I was one of the first replies on one of big if not biggest AWD threads here. Looking back i wasnt being very encouraging.. but just laying out the facts with no bias can be depressing on its own.. if you have the skills to do this kinda swap you almost dont have to ask whether it can be done, so when anyone asks i get this kind of pessimism in my mind about it :p

But regardless of what was said, it has been done! Huzzah!

I kicked my own AWD swap ambitions to the closet a few years ago when i sent my beautiful Avenger away with my horrible ex.... but the bug is coming back... :) Those Avenger AWD swaps have been done (now, not when i was thinking of it) by swapping the motor around the other direction like Ondonti said.. but my plans were to keep the motor in stock orientation and use a mix of caravan parts, 6g motor swap, and GSX rear stuff:blah::blah:

out with the old plans in with the new:evil:

Directconnection
11-15-2009, 12:32 PM
Anyone who hasn't, read the AWD threads, there is a LOT of good stuff. :hail: Don't read the "what if I put a 4x4 blah blah into my car would I run 10's" or "awd is a waste of time, buy slicks" crap.



I have been in the dark on this topic!

I remember the awd "what ifs" thread a couple years ago, starting reading it, but soon lost interest with all the theorizing on if it will work. I thought it was still in the planning stages, but noooooo......

So, where do I read to see the whole picture w/out being lost in a sea of posts? Can we do this with a 555/568 tranny?

Lastly... I know it's not finalized yet.... but this should be put into the Knowledge Center.

bradp
11-15-2009, 02:06 PM
I have been in the dark on this topic!

I remember the awd "what ifs" thread a couple years ago, starting reading it, but soon lost interest with all the theorizing on if it will work. I thought it was still in the planning stages, but noooooo......

So, where do I read to see the whole picture w/out being lost in a sea of posts? Can we do this with a 555/568 tranny?

Lastly... I know it's not finalized yet.... but this should be put into the Knowledge Center.

Carlos' Omni has a 568

Vigo
11-15-2009, 06:33 PM
Can we do this with a 555/568 tranny?

That was what i was asking about and what he explained a few posts up.

You can get a good visual of the AWD 604 vs 5spd diff carrier with some pics Ondonti took of his parts. You can adapt the 604 AWD diff carrier to work in the 5spd using the 5spd ring gear.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Caravan%20AWD/IMG_3813.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Caravan%20AWD/IMG_3809.jpg

Aries_Turbo
11-15-2009, 06:45 PM
Now, the ring to pinion backlash will be off by a few thousandths from factory specs which is actually a good thing for what we're trying to accomplish. To correct this, you'll have to machine the ring gear mounting surface to the difference that it is off of from the factory specs. This machining will also allow you to center the ring gear onto the flange as it machines a groove to use for the centering onto the flange.

so the lateral position of the ring gear to the pinion gear sets the lash? it does now that i think of it because of the angled cut to the gear.

good thing i am friends with a guy with a 4 axis CNC :)

brian

lotsaboost
11-15-2009, 10:28 PM
^^For this application the simple answer is yes.

You don't need anything as elaborate as a CNC for any of this to work. The machining to the ring gear is just a matter of chucking it on the lathe and cutting it to the correct spacing. That goes for the bearing retainer also. However, you have a definite advantage with the CNC.

Looking forward to seeing your finished project. Trust me, you're going to love it. It's like mounting a set of slicks that never slip.

Carlos

CSXRT4
11-15-2009, 10:28 PM
just an extra bit of info, the a555 has a 4-spider diff and the ring gear does not detach. In order to do this with an a555 you would have to get the pinion and diff ring gear from an a520 and swap them in along with the AWD diff.

CSXRT4
11-15-2009, 10:33 PM
^^For this application the simple answer is yes.

You don't need anything as elaborate as a CNC for any of this to work. The machining to the ring gear is just a matter of chucking it on the lathe and cutting it to the correct spacing. That goes for the bearing retainer also. However, you have a definite advantage with the CNC.

Looking forward to seeing your finished project. Trust me, you're going to love it. It's like mounting a set of slicks that never slip.

Carlos

What was your procedure to figure out how much material to remove to set the correct ring gear backlash???

Aries_Turbo
11-15-2009, 11:38 PM
oh wait a min... you used a 568. what diff did you use? 568 or did you make a hybrid with a 523?

im using a later 3.77 gearset with a 3.50 fd 523 ring and pinion.

Brian

lotsaboost
11-16-2009, 01:14 AM
Oops, sorry. Jason made a very good point about the diff's ring gear. The 568 is also a 1-piece unit. I did the hybrid and used the 520 diff. I've been falsely referring to it as the 568 ring gear.

Also, "backlash" is not a totally accurate way of describing the fit between the ring and pinion in this example since the pinion gear is not adjustable like a traditional rearend setup. It's more of a "relationship" between the two.

So, what I did was just simply took the side-to-side measurement that the ring gear is to the pinion. That is, I measured how "Parallel" the the two gears were to each other as they set with the 520 diff in place, with the bearing retainer and stock extension housing torqued to spec's. After I removed the stock diff, I installed the AWD diff, torqued the bearing retainers, set the bearing preload and then measured the ring to pinion relationship. The difference between this measurement and the stock one is what you will machine the ring gear to. This will give you a good contact pattern between the two even though we're doing something unconventional like installing the ring gear on its "coast side".

Man, I hope I didn't overcomplicate this as it's really not that difficult. So, I hope it helps.

Aries_Turbo
11-16-2009, 04:03 PM
ok so you are just looking for the gears to fully mesh with each other and not hang off either edge. :)

are you at all concerned with the difference in wear patter as the coast side will be less worn than the load side? ive always been told that you arent supposed to do goofy things with gears once they are worn together. the wear may be negligible i suppose.

I assume you flipped it over as it either has a non centered flange or a non-finished side of the flange right? its been a while since ive had a diff out of a car.

Brian

lotsaboost
11-16-2009, 05:21 PM
That's it in a nutshell.
ok so you are just looking for the gears to fully mesh with each other and not hang off either edge
Yes, I was concerned about what might happen to the gear teeth. And, you really don't wan't to do it if you can avoid it. The ideal setup would've been to replace the ring & pinion with new parts and install it with the aforementioned procedure. However, this was the only way at the time. Also, for what it's worth, after I checked the tooth pattern with the Dykem, the torque side and the coast side were identical.
are you at all concerned with the difference in wear patter as the coast side will be less worn than the load side? ive always been told that you arent supposed to do goofy things with gears once they are worn together.
I'm trying to recall without my notes exactly why I flipped the gear. I believe it was because it was too far out from the pinion gear if I installed it the normal way.
I assume you flipped it over as it either has a non centered flange or a non-finished side of the flange right?

turbovanmanČ
11-16-2009, 08:44 PM
I know it's already been said that it is a VERY close fit(grinding needed) to fit the AWD transfer case to a 2.2/2.5 set-up, but I wonder if sourcing a Mexican A604 with the 2.2/2.5 belhousing, building it up and then sticking the AWD stuff in it would be an option!? That could be a SICK combo!

I am trying to get a case here but so far, no luck, :(

Reaper1
11-17-2009, 02:11 AM
I am trying to get a case here but so far, no luck, :(

Crappy. I knew somebody was trying, but I'd forgotten who. LOL I wonder how common that set-up is anyways? AFAIK no other market got that transmission!

ohiorob
11-18-2009, 07:19 AM
I nominate you for the project of the year aword. another car in my history book :hail::hail:

Vigo
11-18-2009, 12:23 PM
Yes, I was concerned about what might happen to the gear teeth. And, you really don't wan't to do it if you can avoid it.

Most of these old cars that have had the transmission apart in the past (in their former lives as newish cars that went to shops) never have had the differential settings messed with, even if the rest of the tranny was rebuilt.. since the gears are square to each other its WAY more forgiving than a typical rwd rearend and even the tranny shops dont mess with these diffs unless there's already something wrong with it. Most of em just bolt the bearing cups back in, make sure it still spins, call it good :lol:

My guess is your ring and pinion will have NO problems. :D

lotsaboost
11-18-2009, 02:30 PM
I concur
My guess is your ring and pinion will have NO problems.
Lol, that award should've been for your car for a few years
I nominate you for the project of the year aword.

rbryant
11-18-2009, 03:15 PM
I'm using the front hubs from the '91 van. The rear axles slide ride in.
The rotors are from unvented '89 Daytona Shelby.


That makes sense. I wasn't sure if the caravan drum axles stubs were compatible with the car stuff. I guess once again all rear axle stubs (drum or not) are compatible with rear discs.

-Rich

Reeves
11-19-2009, 05:05 PM
Whoa! Awesome stuff!

I saw your car at TurboPalooza....but I'm so far behind on this thing they call the internet that I had never seen or heard of your car before!

Truly Awesome! Wish I would have crawled around it at Turbopalooza!

Ondonti
11-24-2009, 01:49 AM
I was one of the first replies on one of big if not biggest AWD threads here. Looking back i wasnt being very encouraging.. but just laying out the facts with no bias can be depressing on its own.. if you have the skills to do this kinda swap you almost dont have to ask whether it can be done, so when anyone asks i get this kind of pessimism in my mind about it :p

But regardless of what was said, it has been done! Huzzah!

I kicked my own AWD swap ambitions to the closet a few years ago when i sent my beautiful Avenger away with my horrible ex.... but the bug is coming back... :) Those Avenger AWD swaps have been done (now, not when i was thinking of it) by swapping the motor around the other direction like Ondonti said.. but my plans were to keep the motor in stock orientation and use a mix of caravan parts, 6g motor swap, and GSX rear stuff:blah::blah:

out with the old plans in with the new:evil:

Actually Evo's have their trans on the same side as us. Thats why its very easy, and I have friends who already do custom trans adapter plates and offered to do the work for me. Avengers flipping the motor around just shows they didnt do their homework.

Its still pretty cool to use the OEM stuff. Finally we can put a taxing on our higher end 5 speeds and start breaking them :amen:

Hah, but I didnt know what to do about my rear end until you told me I had to go 4 link with what I am doing. I don't even know if lotaboost needs the fancy rear linkage he has or if he did it for fun.

Vigo
11-24-2009, 05:34 PM
Avengers flipping the motor around just shows they didnt do their homework.

Well they were going from 420 or 6g73 to 2g dsm 4g63 GSX drivetrain, pretty much front to back. Its pretty much drop-in if you have a donor car because avengers are just 2g eclipses with a few extra lbs and a trunklid.

There may be other options for the rear end setup, but what i was saying made sense to me at the time!! :p

lotsaboost
11-24-2009, 06:58 PM
I didn't have to do the suspension the way I did it. I could've just used the van's setup and just shortened it. I had the early van at first and it didn't have rear disc brakes. However, there were a few reasons I chose to do what I did. 1. I wanted rear discs. 2. I had experience in making rwd ladder bars. 3. Relatively simple to fabricate. 4. You can use the L-body's existing mounts for the front of the ladder bars and upper struts. 5. The DeDion combines the best of both worlds. Handles similar to an IRS without being as complicated and it's great for drag racing, very good anti-squat and practically no wheel hop. And, as I've said before, if it's good enough for Shelby, it's good enough for me.
Anyway, here's a better shot of the rearend.http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n224/lotsaboost/AWD%20Omni%20GLH/Rearsus.jpg?t=1259102187

I don't even know if lotaboost needs the fancy rear linkage he has or if he did it for fun.

Carlos

zin
11-24-2009, 07:12 PM
Nicely done! Is that the stock tank re-located? Or did you source one from another car?

Mike

PS My project is still limping along, though I think I'll be facing a few more challenges than you, as I will be using the older rear and a 2.2CB with the 3-speed auto. It will be interesting to see if I can make it fit. I'm sure I'll be on the hunt for a smaller starter, etc.... Time will tell!:nod:

Vigo
11-24-2009, 08:45 PM
Ondonti's setup would be different because he'd be using a GM 10bolt with the diff ON the axle, so i told him he might want to do a 4link to control pinion angle and such.. but im a RWD newb so..:p

zin
11-24-2009, 09:35 PM
Ondonti's setup would be different because he'd be using a GM 10bolt with the diff ON the axle, so i told him he might want to do a 4link to control pinion angle and such.. but im a RWD newb so..:p

I'm sure he could still do a ladder-bar type set-up and still use the stock mounting points, assuming he'll be able to get the geometry he wants... I suggest this as the trouble with a four link is that there are 5000 adjustments and 4 that work!!;)

Mike

lotsaboost
11-25-2009, 02:11 AM
Yup. Stock tank. Moved it to the rear. It's a cheap Ebay unit. I had to remove a little metal of the front to clear the suspension.
Is that the stock tank re-located?

That's going to be very interesting to see how it's going to turn out with the early van setup. How far are you into it?
as I will be using the older rear and a 2.2CB

A 3.42 rear would be a sweet setup for drag racing, connected solidly to the PTU with no viscous coupler. Heck, if you can live with the binding, then you could also drive it on the street. If you can fab the dog clutch into the drivetrain you'd have a mechanical version of an STI's system. You could engage it any time you'd want 50/50 torque split. Man, the more I look deeper into this system the more versatile it becomes. There's just all kinds of options with it. It's going to be cool to see the finished products of those who have aquired parts and have already started it. That's why in my initial post I requested that we start an AWD section.
he'd be using a GM 10bolt with the diff ON the axle,

Carlos

Aries_Turbo
11-25-2009, 09:23 AM
That's why in my initial post I requested that we start an AWD section.

Ill pester Frank

Vigo
11-25-2009, 12:43 PM
Ill pester Frank

A good idea regardless. did you need an excuse? :p


You could engage it any time you'd want 50/50 torque split.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Caravan%20AWD/IMG_3816.jpg

Well.. what does this do?

lotsaboost
11-25-2009, 03:58 PM
^^That's the dog clutch I mentioned in post #75. It's in the overrun clutch housing. The overrun clutch is basically just a one-way clutch or a sprag. It allows the driveshaft to apply torque to the rearend in only one direction so that the rear wheels freespin during coast down and you won't get the "crow hop" during the difference in speeds. This in itself won't allow you to have AWD in reverse so that's where the dog clutch comes in. The dog locks the overrun clutch via vacuum applied to the shift fork. That's why I believe theoretically you could use an electronic actuator or the stock solenoid to lock the dog anytime you wanted a 50/50 torque split between the front and rear.

Carlos

zin
11-26-2009, 12:11 AM
^^That's the dog clutch I mentioned in post #75....The dog locks the overrun clutch via vacuum applied to the shift fork. That's why I believe theoretically you could use an electronic actuator or the stock solenoid to lock the dog anytime you wanted a 50/50 torque split between the front and rear.

Carlos

This is exactly what I planned to do! All the stuff is there to do it, you just have to install a manual switch to activate the solenoid! It even has a vacuum reservoir!

Edit: Looks like the "teeth" of the dog clutch have a one-way angle to them, might make it not want to stay locked-up in a forward gear without some kind of mod.... That's something I'll have to look at a bit closer.

Right now I'm mostly still planning/thinking, but have done some mock-up. I'll keep going at it, though this will be just the 1st evolution. I'm doing this as a bit of a engineering exercise, trying to put all the skills I've learned over the years to practical use! The end-game will likely be what you've started with! Though I've always planned on using the 4-speed auto. After all, it's the other swap everyone says you can't/shouldn't do! I just love going against the grain sometimes!!:nod::eyebrows:

So.... Where are those videos?:evil: I'm Jonesing for a vid of this thing launching like it's on a catapult!!!

Mike

Shadow
11-26-2009, 01:21 AM
Great project, glad to see someone went through with it. I remember when we were talking about AWD'ing a Daytona in the late 90's, along with a twin engine project, twin turbo project, 10 sec Caravan project......the list goes on. Problem is, you can only do so much with the time you have. Nice to see there are other ppl proving that all of the things we were thinking about were indeed possible! :thumb:

turbo2point2
11-26-2009, 10:05 AM
Wow! Sorry I am so late to see this, excellent work, excellent project. Keep it up:thumb:

rx2mazda
11-26-2009, 01:50 PM
I want it!!

lotsaboost
11-27-2009, 12:51 PM
I'm sure the impending 8 second shadow's got it's commitments.
Wow! Sorry I am so late to see this

You are?, you have no clue how bad I want to make those vids after my initial thrashing! I'm working on getting a new clutch and flywheel. I started working on it and the cares of this world just keep getting in the way. Trust me, they're getting made. I'm trying to get the clutch in before the first snowflake attack. Then it will just be boring snow drifting videos
I'm Jonesing for a vid of this thing launching like it's on a catapult!!!

ohiorob
11-28-2009, 08:49 AM
wait till it snows, thats when the real fun begins :D. give me a foot of snow and a unplowed back road. a good way to get over the winter blues.

turbokid
11-29-2009, 04:31 PM
^lol my buddy just got an AWD Audi
That will be an awesome car in the snow FORSURE.
Cant wait to see some snow vids :thumb:

bakes
11-29-2009, 05:18 PM
Snow is great till they add salt

Aries_Turbo
11-29-2009, 05:37 PM
thats why i bought a subaru. AWD salt sacrifice so i dont ruin my precious turbododges in the salt. :)

Brian

86Shelby
11-29-2009, 11:56 PM
A video of an Omni doing axis spins would brighten my cold and wintry day.

turbovanmanČ
11-30-2009, 06:18 PM
Ill pester Frank

Oh sure, you can have an AWD section but no Minivan section, :( :mad:

BadAssPerformance
11-30-2009, 06:19 PM
Oh sure, you can have an AWD section but no Minivan section, :( :mad:

AWD is different... a minivan is just a big Omni :D

Reeves
11-30-2009, 06:45 PM
AWD is different... a minivan is just a big Omni :D


:lol: LOL!

turbovanmanČ
11-30-2009, 07:00 PM
AWD is different... a minivan is just a big Omni :D

Nice, too bad it takes like double the power to go as fast as an Omni, :(

"Top Fuel" Bender
11-30-2009, 07:24 PM
AWD is different... a minivan is just a big Omni :D

please don't insult the omni's like that
that's as bad as saying horizon's are hotter then omni's:yuck:

rbryant
11-30-2009, 08:07 PM
Oh sure, you can have an AWD section but no Minivan section, :( :mad:

We can't do that without being put on the sexual predator watch lists so it isn't going to happen. ;)



-

turbovanmanČ
11-30-2009, 08:36 PM
please don't insult the omni's like that
that's as bad as saying horizon's are hotter then omni's:yuck:


We can't do that without being put on the sexual predator watch lists so it isn't going to happen.



-

Wow, where's the love? :mecry:

"Top Fuel" Bender
11-30-2009, 09:27 PM
Wow, where's the love? :mecry:

there's enough going on in the back of those things :p

Rampage16V
11-30-2009, 10:29 PM
^^That's the dog clutch I mentioned in post #75. It's in the overrun clutch housing. The overrun clutch is basically just a one-way clutch or a sprag. It allows the driveshaft to apply torque to the rearend in only one direction so that the rear wheels freespin during coast down and you won't get the "crow hop" during the difference in speeds. This in itself won't allow you to have AWD in reverse so that's where the dog clutch comes in. The dog locks the overrun clutch via vacuum applied to the shift fork. That's why I believe theoretically you could use an electronic actuator or the stock solenoid to lock the dog anytime you wanted a 50/50 torque split between the front and rear.

Carlos
You guys know that the diff ratios are slightly different front to back right
the overrunning clutch will over run continuiously on dry pavement

zin
12-01-2009, 12:19 AM
You guys know that the diff ratios are slightly different front to back right
the overrunning clutch will over run continuiously on dry pavement

One the one hand that makes sense, but on the other, if this is true, it would seem that it would be taxing the viscous coupler all the time... I haven't checked the ratio of the rear end so I can't say, but, either way something is being taxed all the time... Unless they are the same... I don't suppose anyone has a FM that tells us this?

Mike

"Top Fuel" Bender
12-01-2009, 12:41 AM
You guys know that the diff ratios are slightly different front to back right
the overrunning clutch will over run continuiously on dry pavement

it doesn't matter Dean
turbododge guys are too cheap to buy 4 new tires anyways :lol:
the 4 different tire circumference will do that on it's own

Vigo
12-01-2009, 01:01 AM
^^That's the dog clutch I mentioned in post #75.

Huzzah, i was right! ... and a little late in coming back too :p

black86glhs
12-01-2009, 01:04 AM
Wow, where's the love? :mecry:

Ask the kid in the back of your van for that answer.

lotsaboost
12-01-2009, 02:14 AM
That's correct. The PTU ratio is 3.42:1 and the rear is 3.45:1. It needs that difference so the BOC(Bi-directional Overrun Clutch) operates as designed. The BOC is used in the '01 and later Caravans/Pacificas, the pre '01 vans used more of a sprag type of clutch. In the case of the pre '01 vans, if you were to engage the dog clutch in forward, you would have to calculate the overall gear ratio with tire size if using the stock rear.
Carlos

You guys know that the diff ratios are slightly different front to back right

Rampage16V
12-01-2009, 10:22 PM
One the one hand that makes sense, but on the other, if this is true, it would seem that it would be taxing the viscous coupler all the time... I haven't checked the ratio of the rear end so I can't say, but, either way something is being taxed all the time... Unless they are the same... I don't suppose anyone has a FM that tells us this?

Mike

Nope nothing is taxed the overrunning clutch is free wheeling until the front tires slip enough then the the viscous comes into action. Its quite clever actually.

Reaper1
12-02-2009, 01:06 AM
All the more reason to leave it alone! Let the over running clutch do it's job and all will be well with the world! :thumb:

Garffus
12-02-2009, 01:27 PM
similar AWD platforms over here that don't have the clutch do have a habbit of shredding VCs. The Land Rover Freelander is a prime example.

black86glhs
12-03-2009, 12:10 AM
similar AWD platforms over here that don't have the clutch do have a habbit of shredding VCs. The Land Rover Freelander is a prime example.

Does VC equal valve cover or viscous coupling in this case? lol

Vigo
12-03-2009, 01:45 AM
Have you ever seen a shredded valve cover? Post pics. :D

Garffus
12-03-2009, 07:59 AM
lol, yeah, i meant valve cover :p

On a DD car i think it would be sensible to leave the clutch in, on a limited use/track car there is probably no point having it

copy/paste - http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk Freelander (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/category_8.html)

"The Freelander has 3 main drivetrain problems areas, the Intermediate Reduction Drive (IRD), Viscous Coupling (VC) and the rear differential.

The reason for this is the front wheels on the Freelander are driven faster than the rear wheels so it handles well, like a front wheel drive car. To accommodate this ratio difference, a VC is fitted inline with the rear propshaft which thus is constantly slipping.

On the earlier models this ratio difference was too great resulting in the viscous coupling working overtime and failing by siezing solid. When the viscous coupling is too tight or seized solid the front tyres are fighting the rears as the transmission is "winding up", initially this just wears the tyres (causing a "saw tooth" effect) but it also puts increased load on the IRD and rear diff as they are fighting each other causing rapid wear on both and ultimately failure of one or both."

Reaper1
12-03-2009, 11:28 AM
OUCH!! That sucks!!

johnl
12-08-2009, 06:23 PM
Someone pointed out that the leaf springs of a Rampage simplify things . . . .

If the PTU ratio is 3.42:1, to go AWD with a Rampage, it seems like what I need for starters is a Mopar PTU and a 3.42:1 live axle/diff from some random mini truck . . . .

What random mini truck (or RWD light sedan) would that be? I'd get the brakes, shackles and drive shaft too . . . . Is there a data base of rear end ratios and track (axle lengths) by make & model?

black86glhs
12-08-2009, 09:53 PM
Someone pointed out that the leaf springs of a Rampage simplify things . . . .

If the PTU ratio is 3.42:1, to go AWD with a Rampage, it seems like what I need for starters is a Mopar PTU and a 3.42:1 live axle/diff from some random mini truck . . . .

What random mini truck (or RWD light sedan) would that be? I'd get the brakes, shackles and drive shaft too . . . . Is there a data base of rear end ratios and track (axle lengths) by make & model?I don't know that I would trust any of the small rear axles from the small trucks. Would it be easier to just use the setup from the mini? They used leaf springs too.

glhs0426
12-08-2009, 09:59 PM
Someone pointed out that the leaf springs of a Rampage simplify things . . . .

If the PTU ratio is 3.42:1, to go AWD with a Rampage, it seems like what I need for starters is a Mopar PTU and a 3.42:1 live axle/diff from some random mini truck . . . .

What random mini truck (or RWD light sedan) would that be? I'd get the brakes, shackles and drive shaft too . . . . Is there a data base of rear end ratios and track (axle lengths) by make & model?

The BOC(Bi-directional Overrunning Clutch) is incorporated into the rear assembly of '01 and later AWD Caravans/Pacificas/T&C is really needed to make the system work reliably. The slight difference between the transfer case and the rear differential (a whopping .03) keeps everything alive and out of a bind until the front slips, locks the BOC(Bi-directional Overrunning Clutch) and the rear differential provides the traction.

zin
12-08-2009, 10:14 PM
Someone pointed out that the leaf springs of a Rampage simplify things . . . .

If the PTU ratio is 3.42:1, to go AWD with a Rampage, it seems like what I need for starters is a Mopar PTU and a 3.42:1 live axle/diff from some random mini truck . . . .

What random mini truck (or RWD light sedan) would that be? I'd get the brakes, shackles and drive shaft too . . . . Is there a data base of rear end ratios and track (axle lengths) by make & model?

Off the top of my head, I'd say a 10 bolt from an S-10, etc. Maybe an 8.8 from a Ranger/other Ford. I doubt any will drop in, but at least these are fairly common and used in enough hot rod projects to merit the aftermarket making a variety of gears... Or you could just bolt in the stocker, four bolts and some reinforcement to the bed... OK, maybe a little bit more that that, but...

Mike

86Shelby
12-09-2009, 01:29 AM
An 8 3/4" from an early A body is within 1/2" of the L-body rear axle width. Too bad people think they are gold. :(

johnl
12-09-2009, 02:03 AM
The BOC(Bi-directional Overrunning Clutch) is incorporated into the rear assembly of '01 and later AWD Caravans/Pacificas/T&C is really needed to make the system work reliably. The slight difference between the transfer case and the rear differential (a whopping .03) keeps everything alive and out of a bind until the front slips, locks the BOC(Bi-directional Overrunning Clutch) and the rear differential provides the traction.

In the '01 and later AWD, are the rear wheels disengaged by the BOC until the moment of front wheel slip? Or, are they . . . . ?

And, that 3/100ths difference in ratio . . . . seems like it would keep the wheels/chassis loaded in slight compression, or is it extension?, just barely working at cross purposes . . . . Is that load necessary to self power, to provide the energy to drive the BOC's action?

And then, there's no LSD in the front/primary transmission, right? but there is in the rear diff right?

zin
12-09-2009, 04:32 PM
In the '01 and later AWD, are the rear wheels disengaged by the BOC until the moment of front wheel slip? Or, are they . . . . ?

And, that 3/100ths difference in ratio . . . . seems like it would keep the wheels/chassis loaded in slight compression, or is it extension?, just barely working at cross purposes . . . . Is that load necessary to self power, to provide the energy to drive the BOC's action?

And then, there's no LSD in the front/primary transmission, right? but there is in the rear diff right?

I may be wrong, but the BOC is kinda like a bicycle sprocket (non-coaster brake), since there is a slight difference in ratios the rear is slipping so long as the front and rear wheels are spinning at the same rate, if the front looses traction, the PTU /diff speed becomes high enough to "catch-up" the rear, bringing it into play via the BOC.

No LSDs front or back in the stock set-up, the rear wheels/diff acts like one though.

Mike

black86glhs
12-09-2009, 07:06 PM
That setup with a solid rear axle would leave a lot of unsprung weight. It wouldn't handle as well as as the minivan setup, but would be better at the 1/4 mile.

zin
12-10-2009, 01:02 AM
That setup with a solid rear axle would leave a lot of unsprung weight. It wouldn't handle as well as as the minivan setup, but would be better at the 1/4 mile.

I agree with that, as I'm sure Allan would, what with the rave reviews he's given about the light wheels helping the ride and handling...

Aside from shortening the drive axles and fabricating/adapting hubs that have the hole for the axle, the stock van set-up will be the easiest to adapt and is a known quantity...

Mike

black86glhs
12-10-2009, 03:31 AM
Should be able to have the axles redrilled for the smaller bolt pattern, but don't know how much it would cost. Just in case adapters could not be used due to availability or not enough room in the chassis.
A dual bolt pattern rim could be used to mark the locations for the smaller pattern to save some $$$$. The hardest part would be getting the holes drilled dead center. A machine shop should be able to do that for little $$$$.:nod:

Aries_Turbo
12-10-2009, 05:03 PM
the caravan rear beam doesnt look to bad either for making trailing arms that attach to it. it has 4 huge bolts that normally attach the leaf springs to it and they'll work well as trailing arm attachment points.

the center part is basically a pipe so cutting that, pressing in a piece of tubing in the center of the cut and welding it back up wont be hard either depending on how much it needs to be narrowed. i gotta take a tape measure out to the garage and measure the difference in length from brake disc hat face to brake disc hat face.

i havent measured it out totally, but it shouldnt be too bad to make a lower perch for the stock springs/shocks on non-l-body cars.

Brian

rbryant
12-10-2009, 07:06 PM
the caravan rear beam doesnt look to bad either for making trailing arms that attach to it. it has 4 huge bolts that normally attach the leaf springs to it and they'll work well as trailing arm attachment points.

the center part is basically a pipe so cutting that, pressing in a piece of tubing in the center of the cut and welding it back up wont be hard either depending on how much it needs to be narrowed. i gotta take a tape measure out to the garage and measure the difference in length from brake disc hat face to brake disc hat face.

i havent measured it out totally, but it shouldnt be too bad to make a lower perch for the stock springs/shocks on non-l-body cars.

Brian

You should actually check the measurement vs. the stock specs.

The charger/omni rear is 55.7" with stock drums (but it would be more like 56.1 with discs which are wider)

And the other K based platforms are 57.6 (57.2 with drums). (1.5" wider than the omni/charger)


Interestingly newer caravans are wider than the old ones and their rear ends are much wider than their front ends.

The 2000+ caravan rear track (both fwd and awd) is supposed to be 64" and the front is 63"

The 95 and older caravan rear track is supposed to be 62.1" and the front is only 59.9! (2.3" wider than a kcar)

So it looks like you would cut:

95 and older AWD van rear:

6" out of the rear for an lbody
4.5" out of the rear for the GJKHP body.


00+ AWD van rear:

7.9" out of the rear for an lbody
6.4" out of the rear for the GJKHP body.

-Rich

Aries_Turbo
12-10-2009, 07:46 PM
im going with actual measurements because im using wheels that are already on my k car and have already been on my daytona before so the calculated measurement may be a little off if the van wheels had different widths and offset. they are dual bolt pattern american racing wheels. 15x7 with both 5x100 and 5x114.3 so i dont have to mess with hubs at all. plus they clear the van rear discs with ease. :)

brian

rbryant
12-10-2009, 08:07 PM
im going with actual measurements because im using wheels that are already on my k car and have already been on my daytona before so the calculated measurement may be a little off if the van wheels had different widths and offset. they are dual bolt pattern american racing wheels. 15x7 with both 5x100 and 5x114.3 so i dont have to mess with hubs at all. plus they clear the van rear discs with ease. :)

brian

Yea it is good to measure and of course that is the real truth.

I would expect that the measurements are close to these which makes them a really good rough guide and sanity check on your measurements.

I once cut 2.5" out of a kmember that only needed 1.5" cut out of it because I used the wrong measuring points and didn't think to look at the actual track differences...


-Rich

5.8 L Import Eater
12-22-2009, 09:32 PM
Awesome build up Carlos.

Now all we need are some videos of the monster cruising the streets looking for trouble....*L*

I am very excited to get on my GLH this next spring. This is going to be one of my most anticipated projects yet.

Chris

omnigoestohell
02-11-2010, 09:37 AM
Wow... how did I miss this? Awesome, good job Carlos. Any idea on a curb weight for this thing once completed (with 4wd, 16v and the brakes?) It can't be light, but probably lighter than almost any other 4wd out there.

lotsaboost
02-12-2010, 03:12 PM
It can't be light, but probably lighter than almost any other 4wd out there. It's actually lighter than you think. The rear stock suspension was almost twice as heavey as the ladder bar/dedion setup that I fabbed up. So I only gained just a few pounds in the rear by adding the the diff, axles and driveshaft. In the front, the PTU weight was cancelled out by using the super light Mazda Miata battery(it's puney & it's got 465 amps). I wish I had actual #'s to show exactly how much weight but I simply can't find a lot of that info. I moved and sold a lot of stuff in the middle of the project. However, I do recall calculating everything and I was very close to my target goal of 2,500#'s. I'm not too worried about it anyway, soon I'm taking it to the scales to get the actual weight and work with that. I may or may not lighten it some more. I was going to go all out and just make it a really light race car but I really enjoy driving it on the street. And, if I reach my goal of 500 WHP this summer then 2,500#'s should be good enough to propel it with some good 1/4 mile #'s if the drivetrain holds up.
Carlos

zin
02-12-2010, 03:33 PM
And, if I reach my goal of 500 WHP this summer then 2,500#'s should be good enough to propel it with some good 1/4 mile #'s if the drivetrain holds up.
Carlos

No kidding there! 2500ish pounds + AWD + 500WHP = Mid 10s!!!:nod:

Mike

t3rse
02-12-2010, 03:39 PM
on street tires...evos run 9s with 600 and stickies.

omnigoestohell
02-17-2010, 12:28 PM
Mike, that of course assumes a stock 2001 Caravan AWD system could handle 500hp for an entire quarter mile.. :)

Still wicked cool.. it will be awesome to see..

zin
02-17-2010, 11:07 PM
Mike, that of course assumes a stock 2001 Caravan AWD system could handle 500hp for an entire quarter mile.. :)

I'm afraid Carlos will get to prove strength isn't an issue before I am able to do so.:evil::nod:

Mike

Aries_Turbo
02-17-2010, 11:54 PM
yeah that stuff look pretty darn beefy. :)

Brian

Ondonti
02-20-2010, 11:11 AM
Yup. Stock tank. Moved it to the rear. It's a cheap Ebay unit. I had to remove a little metal of the front to clear the suspension.

That's going to be very interesting to see how it's going to turn out with the early van setup. How far are you into it?

A 3.42 rear would be a sweet setup for drag racing, connected solidly to the PTU with no viscous coupler. Heck, if you can live with the binding, then you could also drive it on the street. If you can fab the dog clutch into the drivetrain you'd have a mechanical version of an STI's system. You could engage it any time you'd want 50/50 torque split. Man, the more I look deeper into this system the more versatile it becomes. There's just all kinds of options with it. It's going to be cool to see the finished products of those who have aquired parts and have already started it. That's why in my initial post I requested that we start an AWD section.

Carlos

I wish I knew about the omni fuel tank :P
Oh well, I already have my fuel tank replaced with a cell.

Reason for going with a 4 link is that my toyota fabricator friend used to be into building crazy off road stuff and said that a ladder bar would promote weight transfer to the rear and lift the rear tires. He also said the longer the ladder bar, the worse this would be. yours is pretty dang short so maybe not a big deal.

RIght now I am sorta wishing I moved my Fuel cell back a bit farther. I want to move my rear end as far back as I can. I might not be able to move it at all but oh well. lengthening the wheelbase would be a nice addition and the 4 link wouldn't mind being a little longer.

The dog clutch would be fun to add, I just think it will be "plenty" of a project already. I am most scared about getting the driveshaft done. That might get expensive as i want a carbon fiber one made locally. My driveshaft is pretty much junk thanks to a forklift.

I picked up the 10 bolt 3.42 LSD 7.5" 2000 Trans Am rear axle in November. Weighs 199 pounds. Got some used wilwood dynalight 4 pot drag brakes for 300 bucks and they will save me 29 pounds so my rear end will only weigh 170 pounds with brakes.

So even with a solid rear axle, My complete rear axle will weigh less the the caravan stuff. The Pre 2001 coupler + rear end + axles weigh 147 pounds without brakes or solid axle or swaybar weight. So probably well over 200 pounds as a full package.
I have figured out that my car will gain about 140 pounds total from the AWD swap.

I would like to roadrace in the future but I realize the limitations of all the unsprung weight. Who knows, maybe we will be wrong and our transfercase will turn into a pile of crap. The only thing that bothers me is that the pinion/output shaft of the transfercase does not have multiple bearings like I have seen in some other T case's. Worried that it will flex and disengage from the ring gear.


With my setup I have been considering running huge wide tires in the rear and more reasonable tires in the front (same diameter) but I have come to the conclusion that if I am going to drag race, I will put slicks on. If I want to goof around in the car, I will just have 4 225's on the car and probably no car will be able to even remotely hang on the street. Giant rear rims/tires would be incredibly expensive, and heavy too.
Very interested to see what kind of 60's I can get at the drag strip.
The DeDion will probably be able to pull off similar results.
My rear end is not incredibly strong, but with 50/50 awd it will only see half the power, and the front tires should help prevent the axle housings from bending during the force of a launch (which causes the ring gear to misalign with the pinion). Also, my car should only weigh 2350 without driver with awd. F bodies weigh 3700 with driver and put all the weight of the car on the rear axle housings.

Huge problem with IRS AWD cars is that when they launch (soft crap suspension) the front tires go massively postive camber, and the rear tires go negative camber. So the faster cars drive to the line with huge front negative camber and serious rear postive camber. Obviously there is a detriment to traction once the car levels out again.


Just to let people know, there are very few street tire AWD's that actually get the numbers some of us are hoping for. And the ones who run really fast are running R compound tires at the drag strip. I think that is silly. You might say you drive your car home but, those guys probably park their trailer around the corner to prevent wearing out those tires.

4 small 24.5x8" REAL slicks should be great thought. For some reason the AWD crowd are semi brain dead and almost always use DOT slicks, which are just as dangerous on the road, and are less sticky.

My big financial worry is my rear coilovers. I cant afford the double adjustable qa1's that I want. 300+ each. People are saying that a good awd rear suspension should be able to adjust both bound and rebound damper independently.

I bet that kind of rear shock would be a HOOT to adjust at the track.

How long are your coilovers? The total height of the ones I want is like 13.5" with a 10" spring. In the end I might go with single adjustable which are almost half the price and skip all the fun.

Ondonti
02-20-2010, 11:22 AM
I wanted to mention for those having different awd ideas.

To make my 64" wide rear end work, I am going to buy Strange brand GM housing flange ends, shorten the housings and add the flange. This flange accepts a Strange brand wheel bearing (no need for c clip eliminators) that presses onto the axle. The Axles will be Strange brand custom (or the other company if they quote me less). I have had a real tough time about bolt pattern. I have decided since I am getting custom axles its probably not going to be a big problem to ask them to just cut both 5x100 and 5x114 patterns. That way if I ever decide to go with a 114.3 wheelset, I just need to hammer in some studs and swap the front to van parts.
The bearing will be held into the new housing end by my brake adapter plate.
Not sure if things will work as smoothly as I hope, and I certainly can't afford the parts right now but that is how it is going to be. My rear end setup is certainly not as affordable as i originally planned. If I did one again I would just go Dedeon, but I think this setup will be fun and probably not mind if I remove the front driveshafts for some RWD thrashing.

In the end its looking like a 2,000+ dollar project JUST for the rear end setup, and thats only if I get a hookup on the driveshaft (possible) and buy the cheaper coilovers.
Financially I couldn't commit anything until I talked to vigo about used parts and found the used brakes on ebay. So I have committed over $600 to the $2000+ budget (300 something for the rear end)

I may cheap out and just reuse shocks and springs that are on the car currently but that will only save me about 500 bucks but that would leave me only 900 dollars short that I would need to save. The 500 or so dollars in axle costs cannot be avoided or cheaped out on for what I want to do with the car, the 4 link kit will probably be cheaper then me sourcing parts and building my own brackets. I budgeted 200 for the driveshaft but it may cost near 1000 if I get screwed. So 2000 may turn into 3000.

So because I don't have a shed full of RWD parts etc, this is really a bad financial decision. DeDeon will pretty much just require some axle shortening at a professional shop.

There are also about 700 dollars in upgrades I can do to my rear end (fancy lsd and a bunch of fancy support covers, axle tube braces, non crush pinion sleeves) and well, I hope the rear end holds together without them.


I don't think its a smart way to go on a Rampage or anything for the matter. 3.42 rear ends can be found in Tacomas also but....ick. I could cheap out and save some money by having a local shop shorten the axle but then i would have sort of a sub par c clip rear end and still have blown a crapload of money. If I am going to blow money, I might as well get something nice/quality.
Find any way you can to use the stock rear parts.


One thing I dont understand. I thought only the 2001+ rear ends were 3.45 ratio? If the early rear end is not 3.42 then I would have failed on my original idea to just use the rear end without the VC or dog clutch (save 60 pounds). To be honest, the only reason I went this route was originally to have LSD options but looking at the cost, I feel pretty silly. I have already envisioned things in my mind so i want to finish the project. I wanted the LSD because the 700-1000+hp 3000gt's are all worried about that stuff and they are using MUCH larger tires. 275 wide DR's all around on some of them.

lotsaboost
02-22-2010, 01:01 AM
He also said the longer the ladder bar, the worse this would be. yours is pretty dang short so maybe not a big deal.Yup, that's another reason for the ladder bars. It's compromises for a RWD drag car do not necessarily apply to our application. As you mentioned, it's length is nowhere near that of a RWD car, it's fully adjustable with the rod ends, you will not transfer anywhere near the gobs of torque to the rear that a prostreet type of big block or any V8 for that matter to the rear of the AWD rear. Even if you had say 500 lbs. of torque, you would only be applying half that to the rear. And, this being AWD, the weight transfer is not the same as it is in a RWD vehicle. You are, in a sense, "pulling" as you are "pushing" the car simultaneously.

My complete rear axle will weigh less the the caravan stuff. The Pre 2001 coupler + rear end + axles weigh 147 pounds without brakes or solid axle or swaybar weight. So probably well over 200 pounds as a full package.Yea, the early Caravan setup is a moose. However, for all it's weight, it appears to be a pretty stout system.

How long are your coilovers? The total height of the ones I want is like 13.5" with a 10" spring. I believe they are 14.75". They're not staying. The springs are cheap ebay units, they're already sagging. I fabbed them from stock shocks. I also inquired about the QA1's. I could get a set for my spec's for about $400 bucks. I believe it's worth it though, with their adjustability you could really set your suspension up to just about any eracing environment. And, I'll be keeping the car for a while.

Anyway, this looks like it's going to be a really awsome build especially with one of your nasty 3.0's in there. Definitaley one of the one's I'll be watching for a while. And to think, I almost got out of TM's to go back to the V8's.

Carlos

turbokid
02-22-2010, 01:10 AM
A moose? never heard that expression LOL
Glad the caravan set up seems pretty stout.
Cause thats what I have

Aries_Turbo
02-22-2010, 10:07 AM
yeah that caravan rear axle assy is HEAVY. I dont like lifting it up lol. oh well, im still using it. just shortening it for simplicity's sake.

plus when i make my trailing arms, they will bolt to the axle where the leafs attached. that will make things even simpler. :)

brian

Ondonti
02-22-2010, 09:54 PM
How much would you sell those coilovers for? Do they have eyelets on both ends? I don't really know L body suspension parts. i was looking at 13.5" ride height qa1's so those would be good enough since the 4 link kit has adjustable bracket holes.

I am okay with sagging parts because I am so much farther behind then you. I want to be able to fit things up.
Double adjustable qa1 looks soooo sexy. Rebuildable, and since its a universal part, no problems with "oh, we don't want to make new tooling for your blah blah blah"

lotsaboost
02-24-2010, 06:01 PM
How much would you sell those coilovers for? Do they have eyelets on both ends?Hmm, haven't really thought about selling them. I guess if someone really wanted them I'd take $75 bucks for both. It'll be a while before I get the good ones though. Also, they have the standard L-body stud mount up top and the eyelet on the bottom mount.


Double adjustable qa1 looks soooo sexy. Rebuildable, and since its a universal partYup, and they've got several options with sizes and mounting.

rich tideswell
04-01-2010, 10:35 AM
bumping this

5.8 L Import Eater
05-14-2010, 07:02 AM
Almost 3 months and no real updates?

Any videos of it driving? I am so excited, and looking for AWD parts currently.

Chris

Shadow24
05-14-2010, 12:56 PM
I read through this thread as i am seriously looking at putting AWD on my v6 P-Body (Soon to be roots-blown) and had some questions about the custom rear end that you made. I know you said it was a dedeion setup (which i researched and can see why you went that way. I'd like to follow that route as well) Did you make yours with the lateral adjust-ability (slideable tube) or is yours just a solid beam with the rest of the dedeion setup?

Also, what sort of material did you use on it? (steel thickness, etc) and what welder did you use? MIG ARC etc?

lotsaboost
05-14-2010, 10:55 PM
Almost 3 months and no real updates?Man I wish I had more but I still haven't installed the new clutch in it yet. I know they're just excuses but I've been scheduled to get all my training for work to get done within just a few months which means I have to drive out of state for 4 days a week, In fact, I'm typing this out of my hotel. The Omni's just been sittin in the garage.

Any videos of it driving?No, not yet. Trust me I'm really working on getting those made. By the sounds of it though, it looks like you may see a few other AWD's get done before I make the maiden voyage down the track. I don't want to give exact dates but it looks like I may actually get to make the clutch install this coming week as I don't have any training to attend.


Did you make yours with the lateral adjust-ability (slideable tube) or is yours just a solid beam with the rest of the dedeion setup?It doesn't have the adjustable tube, however, you can just as easily make it with the adjustable tube setup. It's really not that difficult to make the suspension. Even if you don't have the hubs exactly square, you can add shims(washers) between the rear hubs and the hub mounts to get your toe and camber settings.


Also, what sort of material did you use on it?I used DOM tubing for everything. Cheap and strong and readily available.


(steel thickness, etc) and what welder did you use? MIG ARC etc? The tube is .250" wall thickness and I believe it's 2.5" square. The end tubes are .1875" wall thickness and 5" OD. The hub mounts are .500" squares cut to fit the inside of the end tubes. The ladder bars are 1" OD. Everything is mig'd.


(Soon to be roots-blown)That sounds very nice.


I am so excited, and looking for AWD parts currently.When I first launched the Omni it was therapeutic. Boost therapy for chronic naturally aspirated FWD disorder.

Carlos

BadAssPerformance
05-15-2010, 12:09 AM
Hey Carlos, good to see you posting again :thumb:

Gonna make to SDAC with yer animal there?

lotsaboost
05-15-2010, 11:09 PM
^^I'm tryin' man I'm tryin'. And yes! I plan on being at SDAC this year, even though every time I see that killer red Datona of yours is a bittersweet memory for me. I just keep thinking of what might have been:(

Carlos

TonaChris
05-16-2010, 02:08 AM
If you put the clutch in this week and need a hand shoot me a PM, if Im free Id give you a hand and would love to check it out! Then you can live your awd 2.4 tona dream through me,lol.
Also when you got that 2.4 from me did you end up taking the stratus seats, i cant remember. Just wondering if the fit?

BadAssPerformance
05-16-2010, 02:34 AM
^^I'm tryin' man I'm tryin'. And yes! I plan on being at SDAC this year, even though every time I see that killer red Datona of yours is a bittersweet memory for me. I just keep thinking of what might have been:(

Carlos

Thanks, and yeah, yer Daytona was cool and a sad loss :( But you got a damn cool Omni project now! :thumb:

lotsaboost
05-16-2010, 10:48 PM
did you end up taking the stratus seats, Nope. Didn't get the seats. I had 2 passengers that day and I couldn't stuff it all in the Suburban. And thanks for the offer with the clutch I will surely keep that in mind.

GLHS592
05-17-2010, 07:52 AM
This is the coolest thing I've seen in the Turbo Mopar world in years. It looks so simple compared to how complicated it sounds. I'm going to keep an eye out for an AWD mini.

lotsaboost
05-18-2010, 01:23 PM
It looks so simple compared to how complicated it soundsThis is about as accurate a description as it gets for this project. And it's even easier with the 4 spd trans.

rib256
05-21-2010, 01:19 PM
Would this work with a 543, or would the 543 require modification?

Kreel
05-21-2010, 05:19 PM
Would this work with a 543, or would the 543 require modification?

Yes it would work. The same mods for the A-568 would be needed for the A-543. My project is one the others in progress that Carlos is referring to. I spend more time on the "other" site so right now I don't have the time to have a project log over here. My ETA for completion was, oh, a month ago lol. Just having a hard time finding time to get out in the garage. My project *should* be road worthy in about a week.

Aries_Turbo
05-21-2010, 10:43 PM
Yes it would work. The same mods for the A-568 would be needed for the A-543. My project is one the others in progress that Carlos is referring to. I spend more time on the "other" site so right now I don't have the time to have a project log over here. My ETA for completion was, oh, a month ago lol. Just having a hard time finding time to get out in the garage. My project *should* be road worthy in about a week.

well get on making a build log over here. :) when that site was taken over, alot of us were banned forever from there so we will never be able to see your build log. it benefits the overall community as a whole if you share your build with us all.

brian

Kreel
05-21-2010, 11:45 PM
well get on making a build log over here. :) when that site was taken over, alot of us were banned forever from there so we will never be able to see your build log. it benefits the overall community as a whole if you share your build with us all.

brian

Oh really? I've always heard there's some "history" there but didn't realize people on this forum are perma-banned from there :confused2:

Well, I'll start a log sometime in the near future, but here's a couple teaser pics :eyebrows:

Here's what my van started with:

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/CaravanAWDProject003.jpg

Here's the donor engine/transmission:

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/CaravanAWDProject007.jpg

And this is how the van sits now:

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac143/aheuring/Caravan%20AWD%20Project/CaravanAWDProject005.jpg

Long story short because of a few dropped valve guides I tore the whole motor apart, cleaned it, and replaced a bunch of parts. I'm finishing putting it back together tonight and plan to drop it back in this week-end. The 5-speed conversion has been completed and I'm in the midst of the transmission modifications before putting everything back together.

2.216VTurbo
05-23-2010, 09:25 AM
Welcome to the site Kreel, the more time you spend *here* and the less you spend over *there* you will notice the giant contrast between a site championed by enthusiasts and one forcibly managed for maximum gain by a dictatorship and a few yes men:amen:

Can you explain your project just a little, I sat in the back of the class thru most of my school years;) Your turning and AWD 3.8 Mini into an AWD 3.0 Mini? Or did you add the new K frame from and AWD? I've never messed with these set up's so pretty much whatever I know came from Carlos's thread:o

BadAssPerformance
05-23-2010, 09:33 AM
Oh really? I've always heard there's some "history" there but didn't realize people on this forum are perma-banned from there :confused2:

Yep :( and some of us just had our user names changed w/o explanation and can no longer log on there... :(

Welcome to T-M! :thumb: Glad you found us, looking forward to your project! :nod:

Kreel
05-23-2010, 10:44 AM
Can you explain your project just a little, I sat in the back of the class thru most of my school years;) Your turning and AWD 3.8 Mini into an AWD 3.0 Mini? Or did you add the new K frame from and AWD? I've never messed with these set up's so pretty much whatever I know came from Carlos's thread:o

Quick backstory: after learning of a new addition to the family my duster would no longer have been a viable means of transportation for the whole family. My father-in-law bought a 1991 Grand Caravan LE a few years back. My wife drove it 2 years ago until the transmission blew. It sat waiting for over a year until I got the idea for this project.

I wasn't ready to give in to some lame, boring caravan...I needed to do something cool, something different :eyebrows: This van came factory with a 3.3L and AWD. I don't mind the 3.3L as a engine, but when I want performance I go 3.0L. I considered other options, but in reality I know the 3.0L in and out and it met all my needs. It's also acting as a test for another future AWD project. I confirmed a few things, such that it cleared the block and the transmission modification would work. Starting with an AWD vehicle to begin with takes the whole custom rear end out the equation.

So I did this project in 2 stages. The first was to rip out the 3.3L/A-604 and replace it with a 3.0L/A-543. I used a 92 daytona as the donor so almost everything swapped over. The wiring was a piece of cake. The clutch pedal came from a 4-cyl, 5-speed minivan. That part was successful. The car ran and drove. The second stage is to complete the AWD swap. It is almost complete. The biggest thing holding me back is having the time to work on it, lol!

But yeah, that's what I've done in a nutshell. I've taken lots of pics so when I get around to making a project log I will post everything I have.

663csx-t
06-15-2010, 08:07 PM
carlos any new up dates:hail:

W.P._Turbocars
06-16-2010, 10:36 AM
Someone pointed out that the leaf springs of a Rampage simplify things . . . .

If the PTU ratio is 3.42:1, to go AWD with a Rampage, it seems like what I need for starters is a Mopar PTU and a 3.42:1 live axle/diff from some random mini truck . . . .

What random mini truck (or RWD light sedan) would that be? I'd get the brakes, shackles and drive shaft too . . . . Is there a data base of rear end ratios and track (axle lengths) by make & model?

I was gonna use an explorer or ranger rear axle. They measure 57" from drum to drum.

After reading this over and over (the entire thread) I feel more confused each time. :o

Can someone explain this to me:
I plan on running a real driveshaft from the t case to the rear axle... Will be using an A543 trans... I know that the ptu ratio is 3.42... Up a little I just read that they were offset by .03 from front to back.

Will it tear things up to use a 3.45 rear end ratio then or will I need to find a 3.42?

Just trying to get this all straightened out since I have everything else for the build except the rear end. Don't want to buy the wrong parts being this is an extreme budget build for me. (I have $250 into the project so far and that was for the 3.0, A543, harness, comp, and Holset.)

Aries_Turbo
06-16-2010, 04:50 PM
youll need to use a 3.42 fd axle if you are going with a solid connection from the transfer case to the rear end.

the original rear end housing setup has a viscous coupling to transfer the power and a overrun clutch so the 3.45 ratio creates conditions that make these two additional parts needed.

since youll be making the vehicle full time mechanical 4wd, youll need the exact ratio and same tire size or it will bind.

you may have binding problems in tight turns too.

brian

turbovanmanČ
06-16-2010, 06:33 PM
Quick backstory: after learning of a new addition to the family my duster would no longer have been a viable means of transportation for the whole family. My father-in-law bought a 1991 Grand Caravan LE a few years back. My wife drove it 2 years ago until the transmission blew. It sat waiting for over a year until I got the idea for this project.

I wasn't ready to give in to some lame, boring caravan...I needed to do something cool, something different :eyebrows: This van came factory with a 3.3L and AWD. I don't mind the 3.3L as a engine, but when I want performance I go 3.0L. I considered other options, but in reality I know the 3.0L in and out and it met all my needs. It's also acting as a test for another future AWD project. I confirmed a few things, such that it cleared the block and the transmission modification would work. Starting with an AWD vehicle to begin with takes the whole custom rear end out the equation.

So I did this project in 2 stages. The first was to rip out the 3.3L/A-604 and replace it with a 3.0L/A-543. I used a 92 daytona as the donor so almost everything swapped over. The wiring was a piece of cake. The clutch pedal came from a 4-cyl, 5-speed minivan. That part was successful. The car ran and drove. The second stage is to complete the AWD swap. It is almost complete. The biggest thing holding me back is having the time to work on it, lol!

But yeah, that's what I've done in a nutshell. I've taken lots of pics so when I get around to making a project log I will post everything I have.


Very cool, :thumb:

Are you planning on turbocharging it? :evil:

Kreel
06-16-2010, 07:56 PM
Very cool, :thumb:

Are you planning on turbocharging it? :evil:

Thanks :D

No turbo, just an m90...might have one sourced already :evil:

And in case anyone is wondering about my project I'll start a log soon, I promise! I've had a couple set-backs and it should've been road worthy last night but it looks like that'll be pushed to early next week.

turbovanmanČ
06-16-2010, 09:02 PM
Thanks :D

No turbo, just an m90...might have one sourced already :evil:

And in case anyone is wondering about my project I'll start a log soon, I promise! I've had a couple set-backs and it should've been road worthy last night but it looks like that'll be pushed to early next week.

Hey, that's still ok, :partywoot:

Aries_Turbo
06-16-2010, 09:52 PM
boost is still boost. :) it may be a little different power delivery but it will still be fun.

a local guy near me ports those blowers and gets crazy power out of them. like 11.4@120 in a GTP with the M90 still on it.

Brian

Kreel
06-16-2010, 10:40 PM
boost is still boost. :) it may be a little different power delivery but it will still be fun.

a local guy near me ports those blowers and gets crazy power out of them. like 11.4@120 in a GTP with the M90 still on it.

Brian

Very true. However I want a m90 for low-end torque to get my 4000lb beast moving, lol. Plus mounting a m90 on the top of the 3.0L plenum is dead simple :eyebrows:

But I'm also getting ahead of myself. It'll be months, if not a whole year before I go through with this. 1 step at a time...

W.P._Turbocars
06-16-2010, 11:49 PM
youll need to use a 3.42 fd axle if you are going with a solid connection from the transfer case to the rear end.

the original rear end housing setup has a viscous coupling to transfer the power and a overrun clutch so the 3.45 ratio creates conditions that make these two additional parts needed.

since youll be making the vehicle full time mechanical 4wd, youll need the exact ratio and same tire size or it will bind.

you may have binding problems in tight turns too.

brian

The only turning I plan on doing is when I pull it off the trailer and up to the staging lanes. :thumb: But I guess I'll start looking into GM rear ends. Any idea what will hold up or what I'll need to upgrade to hold up to a turbo 3.0?

Kreel
06-17-2010, 12:18 AM
The only turning I plan on doing is when I pull it off the trailer and up to the staging lanes. :thumb: But I guess I'll start looking into GM rear ends. Any idea what will hold up or what I'll need to upgrade to hold up to a turbo 3.0?

Ondonti was planning to use a GM 10-bolt off a newer firebird. He figured that his car was lightweight enough (as would your rampage) to be able to take the abuse.

lotsaboost
06-23-2010, 12:38 PM
carlos any new up datesLate reply I know but nothing really new with the Omni other than I started the r&r on the clutch things got in the way as usual and I will resume in a day.

And Kreel, get that project log going, itching to see how the early rearend setup holds up to that minivan weight under boost.:thumb:

Carlos

Kreel
07-16-2010, 08:53 AM
A project log is coming real soon, I promise! Maybe even tonight. I just wanted to update that after a million little issues my van is running and driving under its own power :D No launches since I'm still breaking in the clutch but man is it fun to drive!

5.8 L Import Eater
10-02-2010, 04:24 PM
Any updates Carlos? I am moving in a month or so, and I will be starting my project then, and just wanted some more inspiration!

Chris

Devsdaytona
10-06-2010, 12:35 AM
Wow, couple years ago when I was playing with TM's, there was hardly any talk of awd swaps, looks like some much needed progress is made. but I'll stick with my Subaru haha.

Ondonti
10-08-2010, 05:05 AM
Wow, couple years ago when I was playing with TM's, there was hardly any talk of awd swaps, looks like some much needed progress is made. but I'll stick with my Subaru haha.

Because of a lot of ignorant SDML type members constantly flaming anyone who thought about the minivan setup.

Then a few people had the balls to try it. I think the first person to have good evidence was working on a weird K based limo and conjectured that the adapter looked like it would bolt up with some mods, but he was not specific enough to give anyone confidence.

5.8 L Import Eater
01-11-2011, 12:28 PM
I wish I were able to post up with some pics of my Omni but poor has taken hold of me something fierce! Things are looking better though, and I will hopefully start on this project this spring. It should be very similar to Carlos' setup.

Hopefully he will come in with some good news about it driving like an animal in some snow or something after the clutch change. Anyway, hope everything is good in the OP's world and he has a great new year!

Chris

glhs727
01-11-2011, 01:30 PM
unfortunetly Carlos died a couple of months ago, hopefully one of his car buddies will get the car and post up the results....

2.216VTurbo
01-12-2011, 12:38 AM
Ouch:(

jamesmonty
01-12-2011, 01:28 AM
unfortunetly Carlos died a couple of months ago, hopefully one of his car buddies will get the car and post up the results....

RIP. Any details?

Bardo
01-12-2011, 01:39 AM
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?54603-Lotsaboost&highlight=Lotsaboost

5.8 L Import Eater
01-15-2011, 10:16 AM
I....I didn't know. I am so sorry. Carlos you will be missed.

Chris

663csx-t
07-25-2011, 10:19 PM
up date comeing soon on lotsaboost awd srt4 onmi need to put the new clutch in and for some resone he took the stearing rack and turbo out i could do this a lot faster but this is a new set up for me and this might take a lil while lets say summer of 2012 ill try to get some pics of the car wish me luck :clap:

Force Fed Mopar
07-25-2011, 10:24 PM
up date comeing soon on lotsaboost awd srt4 onmi need to put the new clutch in and for some resone he took the stearing rack and turbo out i could do this a lot faster but this is a new set up for me and this might take a lil while lets say summer of 2012 ill try to get some pics of the car wish me luck :clap:

Glad to hear someone is keeping it alive, looking forward to seeing it rolling again.

Turbo224
07-25-2011, 10:24 PM
up date comeing soon on lotsaboost awd srt4 onmi need to put the new clutch in and for some resone he took the stearing rack and turbo out i could do this a lot faster but this is a new set up for me and this might take a lil while lets say summer of 2012 ill try to get some pics of the car wish me luck :clap:

Did you buy this car?

663csx-t
07-25-2011, 10:39 PM
Did you buy this car?no i did not buy the car his girlfriend is keeping the car and i will be trying to get it going again and then do what carlose said he was going to do videos of awd burn out and track vidoes

BadAssPerformance
07-25-2011, 10:40 PM
Good to hear, keep us posted man :thumb:

663csx-t
07-25-2011, 10:56 PM
i forgot to say i am friend of his now a friend his girlfriend

fixit
07-28-2011, 09:25 PM
please post pictures.
this is/was a great build -- impressive

663csx-t
07-28-2011, 10:19 PM
please post pictures.
this is/was a great build -- impressiveill try to get some pics this weekend

errol
07-31-2011, 03:26 PM
Awesome project,what dr.shaft hanger did u use? I'm wondering if it'd fit a T2 intermediate shaft.? Great post.regards.Errol

663csx-t
08-01-2011, 07:49 PM
im not sure what he use

zin
08-01-2011, 08:55 PM
[/COLOR]
Originally Posted by zin
Just thought I touch base with you, and confirm that the screen name is correct (yours). I'm Mike Flynn, the other guy working on a AWD Omni.

As luck would have it, while I was visiting in Indiana, Moparman (George Manning) found a 91 AWD van so I went down to the pick-a-part it was at with BradP and was able to grab the parts I needed, it seems this particular van had had a failure in the rear end as it had been removed before it went to the J/Y. So, while I was able to get the diff and pass side drive shaft and a spare PTU, the drive shafts and rear diff were gone... Just as well, I have no idea how I would have gotten them home in the time I had... Anyway, how's your project going? Do you have a picture of the diff you are using? I'm very curious as to how it varies from what I have. Heck! I'm very interested in seeing any pictures you have of the thing installed in an Omni!!

Best Regards,

Mike Flynn

Hey mike, just replied to you on TD. If you want, you can keep replying here, I need to get on here more often.
Carlos

---------- Post added at 05:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:52 PM ----------

Thanks for the reply, I will just keep the conversation here, it's easier for me anyway, I don't get to TD that much these days, just don't have the time. Any progress on your end? I'm very encouraged by finding the critical parts I was missing. Any chance you could send me a picture of the rearend you'll be using? I've never seen one of the newer units and am curious how they differ. If you can, my work email is: MikeFlynn@NitrousSupply.Com Thanks!

Mike


I saw the thread about the AWD Omni, I'll just post the pics there. I have 2 pics, I'll have to get some of the rearend.
Thanks,
Carlos

moparman76_69
08-01-2011, 09:15 PM
[/COLOR]

Hey mike, just replied to you on TD. If you want, you can keep replying here, I need to get on here more often.
Carlos

---------- Post added at 05:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:52 PM ----------

Thanks for the reply, I will just keep the conversation here, it's easier for me anyway, I don't get to TD that much these days, just don't have the time. Any progress on your end? I'm very encouraged by finding the critical parts I was missing. Any chance you could send me a picture of the rearend you'll be using? I've never seen one of the newer units and am curious how they differ. If you can, my work email is: MikeFlynn@NitrousSupply.Com Thanks!

Mike


I saw the thread about the AWD Omni, I'll just post the pics there. I have 2 pics, I'll have to get some of the rearend.
Thanks,
Carlos

Um ok?

zin
08-02-2011, 02:09 AM
Um ok?

It does get more technical/helpful to those interested... I'm just having a bit of trouble cutting and pasting in an intelligible way, not at all like quoting a post, and the board keeps trying to combine the separate PMs...

If enough folks don't like the idea, I'll pass, I just thought it would be helpful to know some of the problems/solutions we discussed...

Mike

---------- Post added at 11:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 PM ----------

Quote Originally Posted by zin
Hi Carlos, was banging around in the garage tonight, came upon a set of front hubs from a CSX I scavenged parts off of, and was comparing them to the rear discs I got to put on the Omni. I'm not seeing how a front hub is going to mount to the rear axle and retain the disc/e-brake arrangement. I can see possibly fab'ing an adapter plate to allow the use of the front hub, but then there's not e-brake. I know you had said you have it figured out, that is how to get a driven hub on the rear axle and keep the disc brakes, would you mind buying me a clue on this one? It is late, so maybe I'm just not seeing something, but...

Thanks for any and all help!!

Mike

PS Where are you at with your project? Anything I might be able to help with, please LMK!

Hey Mike, How's it going. Glad to see you're still with the project.

I'm using the front hubs off an early minivan. They're the same as Daytonas, Spirits, Lebarons etc. The rotors are off an '89 Shelby Daytona(rear non-vented). The only thing non-Mopar is the caliper assemblies. They're off a '97 Mustang rear disc with non-vented rotors. They have the e-brake built right in and it's easier to use than the inner drum e-brake setup that the Daytonas use. I'm not using the van's rear suspension. I designed my own(not much too it) after Shelby's prototype DeDion tube suspension. You can make it out of flat tool steel and square tubing. I don't have any pics of this stuff yet. When I get completely moved in I'm going to finish this thing and take a million pics. All I have to do is put it together.
I hope this helps, let me know if you need anything else.

Carlos

Ok, looks like that might be another place we'll diverge. I'm going to do my damnedest to retain Chryco brakes, really as much OE stuff as I can and keep the fab to a min, but it looks like a new trailing axle, or some adapters are going to be needed to do so... I was almost going to just buy the stock driven hubs, till I saw everyone wanted over $150.00 each!! As it is, I'm thinking I'll just mod the fronts and/or fad a new adapter. Not sure just yet, but I'll try to keep you up to date! BTW, I just bought a couple of NEW Pass side CV shafts from Autozone for $70.00 each (shipped). All the other I saw were like $130.00 each (with a core, etc). So, now I have a few spares and a couple of CV joints I can hopefully use on the back... I've also recently picked up a spare K-frame so I don't have to mod the one in the car right now, that way everything can stay mobile. Do you have any other picts of what you had to do to yours? I can see (from the picts on-line) that the drive shaft seems to pass between the steering rack and the K-member, but I'm curious if there are any issues with the shaft hitting when the engine torques over? I'm also toying with the idea of fab'ing a new K-member that would allow more room, maybe spacing the rack up a bit, but I worry about bump steer. If I do, I'm going to see if it would be possible to use a non-L body rack, since I'd be placing my own mounting points for it, but bump steer might be even worse... Oh well, probably going to just have to try it and see how it comes out, I just hate to do a bunch or revisions i might not have to.

Mike

I think the ideal K-member would be from an automatic as you have to add all the brackets for the bobble strut and PTU mounts and you don't have to worry about removing the originals. The way I mounted the steering was with spacers. I simply added spacers between the rack and the K-member. And, yes I'm concerned about bump steer but I will deal with it after it's done(If it's not livable). But, I also spaced the rack as minimally as I possibly could. There's several options to remedy the bump steer issue pretty easily anyway. Also, I had to cut a "U-channel" out of the K-member to allow the PTU to fit towards the rear. I reinforced it with chromoly u-channel steel. So...the rack was lifted with spacers and the PTU exits via a u-channel cutout of the K-member. Also, the manual rack gives u another full inch to work with and I'm not too worried about anything hitting as I have Poly mounts everywhere. This thing ain't movin'.

Unfortunately I don't have anymore pics. I moved in to this new house about 3 weeks ago and believe it or not I'm still not completely moved in yet. I still have other stuff to move and I still haven't started moving my shop equipment, otherwise this thing would've been done about a month ago.

BTW, are you using the 4spd trans? And, have you mounted anything in the car yet? Any pics? You can send me some to my email if you want.

For what it's worth, if this thing works out OK, I'm going with the 4spd trans with the autostick, I think it's going to hold up better than any manual trans.

Carlos

Well, I pulled an auto K-member, and the one that is in the car is also an auto (IIRC), so at least that's in my favor. Nothing in the car yet, no room at the Inn with the Spirit still broken... but that's a whole other story. I'm thinking I might mod the K-member with a piece of tubing that the PTU driveshaft would pass through to act as a drive shaft loop in the event that something unexpected happens, that is if the flange will come off without the use of explosives! I've got a "built" 413 w/reverse manual valve body that I'll be installing 1st, but I do plan on putting in a 4-speed (2002 or older) that has the separate controller. I'm holding off on that because: 1, I don't have one. & 2, I haven't done enough research to know exactly which one will work the best. I still need the rear driveshafts (front to back and rear wheel) or at least the flanges for the diff and PTU sides. I had expected that I'd have to have stocker's modified, and I'd rather do that then have custom ones built (yeah, I'm cheap!), but I'm a little worried that the flanges won't be something a driveshaft shop will have or be able to get at a reasonable price. On a related note, on the stock, front to back shaft, there was some kind of spring loaded joint that allowed for fore and aft motion, I don't think it was a regular CV joint or a tri-pot, I don't know if this is the way it is on your donor van, being that it's much newer than what I have, could you take a look and maybe a picture so I can see it and have something to show to the driveshaft shop? (my work email is: MikeFlynn@NitrousSupply.Com). I think I'll have a much bigger challenge installing the torque tube style rear, if I keep a full (rear exit) exhaust, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it! If you have a picture (or can take one) of the rear you are working with, I'd really like to see how different it is, not that I'm going to go out and switch, I have a loose rule for this project that all the major parts will come from Pick-a-Part, in an effort to keep cost to a min. BTW, the car it's going in is the one in my Avatar, in case your curious, yeah it looks like hell, but it has a rust-free CA body and is pretty much all there. And I think it'll be a lot of fun to blow off BMWs and Porches in such a hoopty-looking ride!

Mike

Yeah, don't I know about enough room or broken cars.
That's going to be really interesting to see yours with the 413. I had all 3 trannies(413,41te, & 568) side-by-side at one time. I'm pretty sure the 413 will require a spacer for the ring gear, just an FYI.
That's a good idea with the PTU loop, in some ways I'm kinda scared about shrapnel 'cause I'm going to launch this thing very aggressively to test the strengh of the parts. But...I'm very confident that the PTU will be the strongest piece of the whole system. I'm more concerned about the 568, the pinion gear is simply dwarfed by size comparison with the 41te trans. I don't remember the exact dimensions but the 4spd pinion gear is significantly larger in diameter and wider than the 568 piece.

I will see what I can do about the pics. I'll have to dig out the cameras and get some parts moved into the new garage. I'll try to do it tomorrow(Sunday).

Carlos

Everything I've learned about the 4-speed has lead me to the same conclusion, that it's a damn strong and well designed transmission that got saddled with a piss-poor control system... If there had been a hydraulic version 1st, it wouldn't have a bad rap. But for now I'll stick with the 413, mostly because I have a few, and know they fit. I was under the impression that the two autos shared some parts in the diff/transfer gear dept., but that might have just been wishful thinking. The trans I have now has a spacer for the Quaife that is installed, I wonder if that would do the trick? Heck, maybe we could have a company like Pelican Differentials spline a LSD or stocker to work with the PTU... On second thought I'm sure they could, but would they, and for how much $$?

Mike

I've got the rearend moved into the new garage, I'll take pics and send 'em to you.
The diff in the 4spd does not have the exact dimensions of the 3spd, thus the need for a spacer. I don't remember the exact measurements as it's been quite some time and I had to get rid of a lot of parts along with all my trannies. The manual, 3spd, and 4spd diff's are all different dimension wise. The '97 & up 3spd has the same carrier bearing diameters as the 4spd. The earlier 3spd has the small diameter bearings. In order to mount the AWD diff to the 3spd, it'll have to be a '97 & later trans.
When I started this project there was a company making a quaife type of LSD for the 4spd trans. I talked to some local machinists who were familiar with them and they said that since the tooling was available for the diff, then the extra tooling for the spline to attach the PTU would not be difficult. And, that it would be comparatively priced to the quaife. But, I haven't looked into it since then.

And...Yes, our conversations have been motivating and encouraging, which is almost a joke with our TD crowd. I had this idea roaming around my head for quite some time but everybody kept saying "it's too weak" or "The van system sucks" or "the japanese have it down pat" so...I decided to go ahead and do it since no one had any concrete proof to substantiate any of their discouraging claims. I learned all this from my 2.4L 5spd Daytona. I had that idea for a while too. I actually quit that project after all the negative remarks against it. Then, I thought, no one has ever done it so how the heck do they know! So, I went ahead and did it and low and behold, it worked! So I started a thread on the first 2.4L mated to a 568.


Carlos

To all those following this thread, let me know if you'd like me to post more of Carlos and mine's conversations on this topic and I will, if he consensus is "no" than so be it!

Mike

Ondonti
08-02-2011, 06:17 AM
yay yay,

permission to punch those who nay nay

Vigo
08-02-2011, 12:44 PM
that it's a damn strong and well designed transmission that got saddled with a piss-poor control system...
It's a fantastic control system, just not for doubling the stock horsepower. It seriously took everyone else 10-15 more yrs to get an electronic trans to shift like a 604 does and STAY shifting that way over time. It was way ahead of its time and it seriously took the people in this community almost 20 yrs to catch up to what and where the 604 was in 1989. :confused: It was NEVER rocket science. There are people in this community who could look at a pinout and read a few paragraphs and have a real good idea of how the control system works, but everyone else who isnt into electronics or controls wants to blame their own lack of knowledge and motivation on the design being crappy when it's actually excellent and they just cant keep up with it. :lol:



it'll have to be a '97 & later trans.
The bearing races are both on bolt-in pieces, i dont think the size of the holes in the case ever changed. So you wouldnt need a newer case, just the newer extension housing and bearing carrier which bolt on.

zin
08-02-2011, 08:39 PM
Here's the last of our PMs:

Mike,
How are things going with the AWD project. Anything new? I decided to piece mine back together so I can start a thread. The emails and calls are getting ridiculous. I'm not sure if I'm going to post on it until I'm completely done but, I'm making some great progress and I may have it up and running within a month maybe sooner. Anyways, just wanted to see how things are going.

Carlos

Good to hear your making progress, I'm still trying to collect some parts, so far no one has come through and there just aren't many to be found here in So Cal. Once I get the drive shafts and driven hubs (I'm going to see if they are adaptable to the discs), I'll be able to move forward. Right now, just in a holding pattern...

Mike

Well at least you're sticking with it. I did a search an car-part and found some awd stuff but I know shipping can get pricey.
Anyway, keep me updated on your research.

Thanks,
Carlos

Another board member might be getting me what I need. If that falls through I'll have to keep looking. Since all I need is the driven hubs and the drive shafts (just the flanges on the front/back), I don't think shipping will be too bad.

Mike

Hey Mike how's it goin. Anything new on the AWD project? Also, you makin it out to SDAC this year?

Anyway, just wanted to stay in touch and let you know that I posted some pics of the rearend, just go hear: http://s113.photobucket.com/albums/n...%20Omni%20GLH/.

I hyper-linked it at the TD forum also.

Carlos

I've got all the Van parts I need in order to start, heck on most parts I've got spares! I'll be picking up a welder in the next week or so as well, so it should get interesting soon. No where near the progress you've made though, nothing in the car as yet... How about you? I imagine getting the rear diff in was a bit of a pain, what did you do with the fuel tank? Looks like it ended up a a bit further back than OE, or that might just be an optical illusion caused by the forward sloping shocks... Did you have the axles shortened? If so, was it expensive?, if not, hows the fit? I'll be a bit surprised if you didn't have to shorten them!

My hope/plan is to have a driving AWD Omni before the end of Summer, it won't look pretty, but it will be functional!

As for SDAC, I'm a bit up in the air just yet, it is my hope that I'll be able to afford the trip this year, but it is not a sure thing just yet, but leaning that way.

Keep up the good work!

Mike

Actually, the diff wasn't that bad. I mounted it to a 5" wide u channel that I welded to the car's rear subframe. This and the panhard bracket were the only things I welded to the car's body. There was little welding done to the car's body. Most of the welding was done to the rear suspension setup. And, as you can see, I used the dedion suspension. Same as Shelby used in the AWD Daytona concept and same as the Caravan setup. The fuel tank was mounted all the way to the back behind the diff. It had to be cut and welded to fit. you don't see it in the pics because it was removed.
The axles were shortened by the Driveshaft shop. I used the stock measurements from drum-to-drum to get the correct axle length. They charged me $200 each to shorten. They also put them together for me.
The struts were homemade by me. I used regular Ram pickup shocks and I added the springs/sleeves and I fabbed an upper plate to mount the stock seats. I wanted to use the stock strut mounts and stock trailing arm connections.

Well, I'm looking forward to seeing some progress on your project. Glad you're staying with it.

Carlos

The rear suspension looks quite beefy! Is it as heavy as it looks? I'm going to see if I can get away with modding factory pieces, but if that's going to be unsafe or significantly inferior, I'll fab something. The diff looks a bit low, that might be the angle the picture was taken at, but I also noticed the angle of the 1/2 shafts went up not down, was this a necessary evil to fit the drive shaft without cutting the tunnel? Or is that just how it worked out?

I love the fact neither of us listened to all the naysayers! AWD FTW!! Can't wait to get my garage finished so I can make some REAL progress! Keep up the good work, you are encouraging me with your effort!

Mike

Hey Mike how's it goin.
Just wanted to link you to a short video clip of the Omni. I'll have more soon. Check it out.
http://s113.photobucket.com/albums/n...AWDOmnivid.flv

Carlos

That is fantastic!! Were all four wheels off the ground? I assume so, otherwise some kind of LSD would be on the menu! I really gotta hand it to you, not only are you AWD, but also 2.4! You pretty much skipped to the end of my project!

Right now I'm just catching up on a lot of basic maintenance. I got the new engine in (complete with VNT) and the new auto with the Quaife, though right now it doesn't make enough power to need even that! I'll be working on that part... I really didn't think doing a TII conversion with an auto would be this difficult, but the 1st time always is, almost no matter what is being done! So far I've done the complete TII conversion, and 4-wheel discs upgrade, but then the heater core took a dump (right on my feet!), so out came the dash, now I'm debating replacing the windshield... That and now I'm fixing the cluster, steering wheel (Shelby wheel), turn signal, map light, well, you get the picture! My goal of AWD by the end of summer might have been a bit ambitious. But, when I'm done, it will be better than new.

BTW, what did you do about the fuel tank? So far that seems to be the only real modification that will be required to get the diff in, though I am using the larger diff... Any way, good work! I'd love to see more, especially driving!

Mike

Late for work I'll reply later, but I relocated the tank to the rear and I'm starting a thread with more pics, vids and more info.

Carlos

I was in a hurry earlier so I couldn't write much. Anyway, I removed the spare tire bulge and added sheet metal to cover the hole. It had to be done to make room for the rear diff. I had to cut part of the fuel tank and move it to the rear. This weekend I'm taking it to work and put it on the alignment rack and I'll be taking more pics and videos, everyone's interested in the underneath.
So stay tuned.

Carlos

I see, well, I was hopeful that I would be able to retain the spare tire well, it really looks/ed like it would fit, but I don't see a way to keep the tank so regardless of what I do in back the tank has to move... I'm thinking about using one of the wheel well tanks from ATL, they weren't too expensive when I sold them at the Earl's store and might be a little easier to work with... Guess I'll have to get all the mundane crap out of the way and get to it! I'm really glad to hear it's rolling, hopefully there won't be any nasty surprises, though there always are a few!

Later,

Mike

Yeah there's a lot of questions that need answered but hopefully we can get answers as I start to beat on it.
Keep up the project I'd really like to see what others can come up with, it'll only help all of us out in the end.

Carlos

I couldn't agree more! In fact, I'm very interested in any unexpected issues you had along the way, so far it sounds like the issues were pretty much expected and planned for, if there were some that took you by surprise, I'd love to know about them so I can be sure to take a different approach, or at least not fling wrenches across the garage! I'll tell you this much, if I get it all together to my liking, we'll have to race each other at the next SDAC! I fully expect to have complete reliability, well, at least as good as OE!

Mike

The only major thing I changed was not using the early rear end setup with the torque tube. I had it all planned on paper to use that one. Then I decided it was easier and a light lighter to go with the later rear. The later setup however is a lot more difficult to find and that's one of the drawbacks of using that.
I'll hold you to that matchup. Who knows, maybe it'll be the first AWD TD drag race with both cars in the 10's LOL

Carlos

10s would be great, but I think you're way ahead of me in the engine development side of things! I plan on starting with an 8V, then a hybrid. I kinda want to see what I can do with the more common tech, then blow it out of the water with the 16V! Though I do have access to LOADS of nitrous!

Mike

Well, I don't want to discourage you with the 8 valve engine but I couldn't get the PTU to fit with it. You'd have to do some major grinding to the block. Just wanted to let you know in case you got really deep into it.

Carlos

Thanks for the heads-up, I'm not above grinding if need be... I'm curious what part was interfering? I plan on doing a mock-up anyway, but forewarned is forearmed!

Mike

When you mount the PTU to the trans, the PTU casing hits the block in a major way. I couldn't remember how much but I know it was significant, even the pan had to be ground. Anyway, if you don't mind the grinding then it may not be an issue. I just can't remember if the grinding was enough to hurt the integrity of the block.

Carlos

Sounds like I need to do some mocking up! Wonder why the 2.4 doesn't have a problem, or did it? I could see a "V" type engine having more clearance as the rear bank would angle away, but if one I-4 works, why not the other?... It might have something to do with the trans too, I'll be using the 413 to start (I think), but the 604 with an auto-stick controller is my ultimate goal. Guess I'll be finding out pretty soon!

Mike

I believe the common block hit because there's extra bulk at the bottom where the pan mates. The 2.4 uses the bedplate for strength and allows for a narrower block. There's still some grinding with the 2.4 but it's minimal. You can't even tell it's been ground off.

Carlos


This concludes our PMs, hope it helps anyone trying to do a AWD conversion!:thumb:

Mike

663csx-t
08-15-2011, 04:46 PM
here you go guys3317633177

663csx-t
08-15-2011, 04:52 PM
33178331793318033181

663csx-t
08-15-2011, 05:08 PM
3318233184331853318633183

663csx-t
08-15-2011, 05:48 PM
33196331983319933200332013320233203332043320533206 33197

turbovanmanČ
08-15-2011, 06:18 PM
up date comeing soon on lotsaboost awd srt4 onmi need to put the new clutch in and for some resone he took the stearing rack and turbo out i could do this a lot faster but this is a new set up for me and this might take a lil while lets say summer of 2012 ill try to get some pics of the car wish me luck :clap:

Good luck, :nod:

BadAssPerformance
08-15-2011, 06:20 PM
Thanks for posting pics!

zin
08-15-2011, 07:07 PM
Nice!! Good to seem some new pictures!

Mike

Reaper1
08-15-2011, 08:05 PM
Thanks for posting those pictures up!

Ondonti
08-18-2011, 07:16 AM
Interested in that driveshaft. VERY different then the older one. That has a U join that looks like the one on my 10 boly Chevy. Where is the missing piece?

663csx-t
08-18-2011, 04:42 PM
its no hook up it is around some whare
Interested in that driveshaft. VERY different then the older one. That has a U join that looks like the one on my 10 boly Chevy. Where is the missing piece?

663csx-t
10-09-2011, 08:01 PM
started working on the onmi today
should have the tranny out and back in by this weekend
if anyone needs any pics of something let me know



im doing this for you carlos

fixit
10-10-2011, 09:18 PM
pictures of output shaft and connections to the drive shaft would be helpful

pictures of the k-member with a ruler too trying to figure out size and location of the notch

663csx-t
10-10-2011, 09:29 PM
pictures of output shaft and connections to the drive shaft would be helpful

pictures of the k-member with a ruler too trying to figure out size and location of the notchill try to get them tuesday or wedsday

663csx-t
10-10-2011, 09:44 PM
is tihs what you are looking but need beeter pics3447734478

moparman76_69
10-10-2011, 09:45 PM
pictures of output shaft and connections to the drive shaft would be helpful

pictures of the k-member with a ruler too trying to figure out size and location of the notch

notch would need to be dead center of the k frame.

fixit
10-10-2011, 10:03 PM
carlos did a great job, and thanks for continuing this GREAT project

I just finished my motor build (first build) and have been thinking about an AWD srt-4, not sure if it would be possible with the T850 trans -- this link implies a hybrid diff.
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?44246-Allwheel-Drive-Omni-GLH-SRT4&p=583333&viewfull=1#post583333

(http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?44246-Allwheel-Drive-Omni-GLH-SRT4&p=583333&viewfull=1#post583333)fwiw links to my build
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f451/project-resurrection-s3-evo8-w-123k-612933/

663csx-t
10-10-2011, 10:24 PM
thanks

663csx-t
10-15-2011, 09:02 PM
the tranny will be out tomarrow but i might have to drop the tranny and the awd setup

663csx-t
10-18-2011, 08:49 PM
ok guys the clucth is in
just trying to replace the clucth release bearing (any tips) then put the tranny back in
then the real fun starts

663csx-t
10-23-2011, 02:57 PM
ok the clucth is in the tranny is back in now i need to hook everything else back up and see if this thing will start

fixit
10-23-2011, 07:22 PM
nice
keep us posted

663csx-t
11-04-2011, 09:40 PM
ill have a up date on sunday fo you guys

rx2mazda
11-05-2011, 09:40 AM
ill have a up date on sunday fo you guys with pics

fixed!

663csx-t
11-05-2011, 01:46 PM
thanks:thumb:

mike radowski
11-19-2011, 08:31 PM
I'm glad to see this project is still moving! I'm sorry to hear about Carlos and the accident.

-Mike

663csx-t
12-19-2011, 09:34 PM
well guys im stuck bolting on the u joint wraps (the pice that wraps around the u joint caps and bolts them in place) as of now i cant find out what car or truck has the size i need
i work at a mopar dealer ship and every truck i look at is too small or not the same set up i think i need to start looking for some custom shops

"Top Fuel" Bender
12-20-2011, 08:04 AM
look for a driveshaft shop or a truck repair shop
we have a few that build/rebuild driveshafts all the time
probably have what you need

663csx-t
12-26-2011, 09:45 PM
new up date driveshaft is in
now all i have to do is hook up power steering lines redo the temp gauge wire and get new roters change oil i think thats it


im allmost done carlos

Force Fed Mopar
12-26-2011, 11:12 PM
Sweet dude, make sure to get a video!

Ondonti
12-26-2011, 11:27 PM
How much do we have to worry about driveshafts? I don't want a v6 mustang kaboom. Is that just the fault of the manufacturer saving money?

zin
12-27-2011, 11:49 AM
That's a resonance issue, I doubt we'll be that "lucky", plus it's based on a design that didn't have a problem. That's not to say it could never happen, just buy a lottery ticket on test day to be sure!

Mike

Aries_Turbo
12-27-2011, 05:37 PM
How much do we have to worry about driveshafts? I don't want a v6 mustang kaboom. Is that just the fault of the manufacturer saving money?

typically 1 piece steel shafts cant be spun as fast as 2 piece units. the longer the shaft and the smaller the diameter, the easier it tends to resonate. aluminum and its lighter mass, tends to help the issue.

only time, and high speed will tell if we can spin the caravan shafts that fast without issue.

i doubt any caravan owners removed the limiter and did top speed runs.

brian

663csx-t
12-29-2011, 07:55 PM
drive shaft should be fine

fixit
03-13-2012, 11:00 AM
bump, for one of my favorite builds

RoadWarrior222
03-13-2012, 11:28 AM
only time, and high speed will tell if we can spin the caravan shafts that fast without issue.

i doubt any caravan owners removed the limiter and did top speed runs.

Could possibly be because it gets squirrely at high speed as an effect of the AWD??

For some reason I was thinking the DS wasn't being driven as as high a speed as RWD shafts were typically... but I maybe got confused with the ratios... it's just something I remember thinking but can't remember the info or deduction that triggered it..

moparman76_69
03-13-2012, 04:20 PM
The rear prop shaft spins at the same speed as the pinion shaft in the factory setup.

trans 3.42:1
PTU 1:3.42

With a different ring and pinion it doesn't exactly spin the same speed but it is close.

663csx-t
03-29-2012, 07:13 PM
up date comeing soon:thumb:

Force Fed Mopar
03-30-2012, 07:41 PM
With video I hope? :clap:

663csx-t
03-30-2012, 08:32 PM
ill have a video but not sure how good it will look

Force Fed Mopar
03-31-2012, 07:50 AM
No problem, looking forward to seeing this progress.

663csx-t
04-02-2012, 07:32 PM
sob well guys i was just puting tranny fluid in and it was leaking out just as fast as i put it in its leaking right whare the tranny and the transfer case come together
so the seal must be bad looks like i have to pull offf the transfer case (dam it ) i relly dont want to do that but what else can i do i wish i would have knew that when i had the tranny out :confused2:

Fox
04-05-2012, 12:29 PM
what intercooler is that in the awd omni ?
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33181&d=1313441462

663csx-t
04-05-2012, 07:02 PM
its from a neon srt-4 every thing on the car is mopar
what intercooler is that in the awd omni ?
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33181&d=1313441462

663csx-t
04-21-2012, 12:38 PM
any one want pics of the tranfer case or tranny befor i put it back together

paduster
04-21-2012, 12:53 PM
Lots and lots of pics

Shadow24
04-21-2012, 01:16 PM
Lots and lots of pics

+1! :-)

663csx-t
04-21-2012, 03:51 PM
38976389773897838981

663csx-t
04-21-2012, 04:16 PM
38983389843898538986389873898838990

663csx-t
05-06-2012, 09:36 PM
the onmi should be runnimg in the next week as long as no other bs happends i cant wait to unleash this beast

wish me luck


all most done carlos

Reaper1
05-06-2012, 10:11 PM
Sweet! Good luck! Don't forget videos!! :)

turbovanmanČ
05-07-2012, 05:50 PM
Can't wait. :nod:

663csx-t
05-17-2012, 08:15 PM
it runs and it drives sounds good
i know i know dont forget videos

RoadWarrior222
05-18-2012, 07:54 AM
Tease!... Like turning up to a swimsuit show, to find out it's historical Victorian swimsuits.

Juggy
05-18-2012, 08:22 AM
the onmi should be runnimg in the next week as long as no other bs happends i cant wait to unleash this beast

wish me luck


all most done carlos

DUSTY!!! you got the AWD GLH SRT?!?! good stuff holmes!! im sure Carlos is watching over your every move :)

663csx-t
05-18-2012, 12:42 PM
DUSTY!!! you got the AWD GLH SRT?!?! good stuff holmes!! im sure Carlos is watching over your every move :)
yes sir im sure he is ill be playing with it more tonite

RoadWarrior222
05-18-2012, 12:53 PM
That's if him, Gus, Ralph and Josh have sobered up from the Carroll Shelby welcome bash yet. :D

663csx-t
05-26-2012, 08:38 PM
hay guys ill get a video as soon as i get plates and fix the stearing
just got the boost gauge hooked up i have get a boost controller 20lbs of boost might be a little too much lol but feel soo good