Mls head gasket leaking??

[DBB mini]

I tried this post on my project log. Gonna try it here hopefully get a reply. I have a problem with the coolant overflowing. Engine is not getting hot. Stays @ 180^. Engine is 2.5L hybrid, running the mopar mls gasket/sealant. Only when I hit high boost (18+psi) it will puke coolant into the catch can. If boost is on low setting(10psi) it's fine. Switch to high boost, hit it for a couple of seconds, pull over, has excess coolant in the catch can. I think the mls gasket is leaking cylinder pressure into the coolant. Any ideas?

[DBB mini]

Plugs read weird too. #1 is black #2 is almost white #3 is light gray #4 is brown paper bag

[turboaddict]

head is lifting under boost, have you tried torquing the head back to spec? i assume you have head studs.

[clocktowersniper]

To be honest, I dont think studs are necessary. I ran 30 psi boost on one of my cars with bolts with no issue. Now it does sound like the head is lifting under boost. You can try re-torquing the head bolts to see if it fixes the issue, If not You will be doing a HG.
I had the same issue on my Spirit RT once. Right after a dealer installed HG was done. It was fine at stock boost, But anything over 15 psi it lifted.

[DBB mini]

I'm running ARP studs, yes I have double checked the torque on them. The ARP torque sheet said 65 if I used the supplied arp lube, which I did. I re-torqued the to ~72, still has the problem.

[2.216VTurbo]

Same problem with the Masi motor in my GLHS, last track day it was puking coolant out of the catch can vent-even earned me a black flag when a cornerworker smelled the coolant:( Never did get hot and hasnt gotten any worse or happened again in the hundred or so miles since the track. I too am running the MLS. When the head comes off I am going to do what Simon does. Grind/drill the rivets out and copper spray coat each side of layer of gasket. That sounds like a good fix to me:thumb: I'm still shocked that Simon came up with it:p

[DBB mini]

Same problem with the Masi motor in my GLHS, last track day it was puking coolant out of the catch can vent-even earned me a black flag when a cornerworker smelled the coolant:( Never did get hot and hasnt gotten any worse or happened again in the hundred or so miles since the track. I too am running the MLS. When the head comes off I am going to do what Simon does. Grind/drill the rivets out and copper spray coat each side of layer of gasket. That sounds like a good fix to me:thumb: I'm still shocked that Simon came up with it:p

Yeah I'm gonna do that and add 2 more layers, on top and bottom, make it a 5 layer gasket.

[A.J.]

Did you check your block with a straight edge? A lot of people over look that. A MLS isn't as forgiving as a composite gasket is for a block or head that's not perfectly flat.

A.J.

[DBB mini]

Did you check your block with a straight edge? A lot of people over look that. A MLS isn't as forgiving as a composite gasket is for a block or head that's not perfectly flat.

A.J.

Yes and it was decked by the machine shop.

[bakes]

Are you torquing to 72#s or 72# + 1/4 turn there is a big difference i torque the studs on my cars to 100 # and never had a problem but that is just me.

[A.J.]

Yes and it was decked by the machine shop.

Okay, never mind then.


Are you torquing to 72#s or 72# + 1/4 turn there is a big difference i torque the studs on my cars to 100 # and never had a problem but that is just me.

ARP studs are suppose to be torqued to the spec supplied with the studs and no 1/4 turn. The 1/4 turn is for bolts.

A.J.

[gasketmaster]

I'm running ARP studs, yes I have double checked the torque on them. The ARP torque sheet said 65 if I used the supplied arp lube, which I did. I re-torqued the to ~72, still has the problem.

The production Buick V-6 stuff has head gasket problems like this. Everybody I know in the Buick world including myself torques the ARP studs or bolts to 80 ft lbs instead of the 65 ft lbs the instructions say ;)

The early instructions that came with the first set of studs I bought said 55 ft lbs with ARP lube :wow1: Those gaskets blew out almost immediately :confused:

Good Luck :thumb:

[larryB]

Yeah I'm gonna do that and add 2 more layers, on top and bottom, make it a 5 layer gasket.

I'm running the Felpro MLS gasket with the extra 2 layers and ARP studs torqued to 80ft lbs. I always re-torque after a heat cycle and it's always lost a few ft. lbs. I also use the Mopar gasket sealant. I hate having to buy 2 head gaskets every time but I've never had a problem with pushing water into the over flow bottle yet, like I had with a Cometic gasket on my Mitsubishi.
Before the Cometic lovers jump on me, I know they will work if the finish is right on the block and head but my machine shop must not be able to get it right because I have never got one to seal under high boost while other brands of mls gaskets have worked fine with the same finish.

[DBB mini]

Thanks for all the help guys. When I replace it I will torque it to 80lb/ft. I will run a 5 layer custom with copper spray sealant.

I just got the head off. Bad news first, It was leaking cylinder pressure into the coolant jacket as I thought. Witness marks on the block and head confirm it. I didn't have the holes in the head gasket of #1 cylinder coolant passage punched out large enough. I am running the tstat on the end of the head(drivers side), and it created a hot spot on the #1 cyl.:( It actually "bubbled" the gasket where the coolant jacket is. Insane. I'll be punching them ALL out larger, more like cylinder #3 coolant restrictor. Now the bad news, #1 cylinder had oil in the chamber, possibly from the valve guide, but it caused some detonation and the venolia piston got hot by the valve relief, piston moved so much in that area that it kissed the head.:banghead:

Now the good news, I had really good leakdown #'s (~5%) and all the bores look fantastic!! So I'll be looking for one new piston, new rings for it, 2 new mls gaskets to make 1 good 5 layer gasket and a few more upgrades, then I'll be ready to punish the pavement again. The finishes look great but i'm going to run the profilometer on both the head and block to see what it reads. I'll check the head and block for warp as well.

[2.216VTurbo]

I still order five pistons with every custom set. I have a couple on the shelf just standing at the ready if I have a tuning event and scorch one piston.

[DBB mini]

I still order five pistons with every custom set. I have a couple on the shelf just standing at the ready if I have a tuning event and scorch one piston.

Yeah thats smart. Now I feel like a dumbass for only ordering 4. :( Oh well, surely venolia or Cindy has one that checks close to the same diameter.

[DBB mini]

Looks like my mopar gasket is actually a 4 layer. 1 top, 1 bottom, 2 middle. I think I'll get 2 fel-pro's from advance.

[turbovanman²]

Same problem with the Masi motor in my GLHS, last track day it was puking coolant out of the catch can vent-even earned me a black flag when a cornerworker smelled the coolant:( Never did get hot and hasnt gotten any worse or happened again in the hundred or so miles since the track. I too am running the MLS. When the head comes off I am going to do what Simon does. Grind/drill the rivets out and copper spray coat each side of layer of gasket. That sounds like a good fix to me:thumb: I'm still shocked that Simon came up with it:p

Thanks, :o

[Ondonti]

I'm running the Felpro MLS gasket with the extra 2 layers and ARP studs torqued to 80ft lbs. I always re-torque after a heat cycle and it's always lost a few ft. lbs. I also use the Mopar gasket sealant. I hate having to buy 2 head gaskets every time but I've never had a problem with pushing water into the over flow bottle yet, like I had with a Cometic gasket on my Mitsubishi.
Before the Cometic lovers jump on me, I know they will work if the finish is right on the block and head but my machine shop must not be able to get it right because I have never got one to seal under high boost while other brands of mls gaskets have worked fine with the same finish.

Cometic are junk.

the proper finish helps seal the coolant and oil passages, but the reason why the cylinders fail is because Cometic has no real fire ring around the cylinders. They are sorta like running a copper headgasket with no O ring.
Mitsubishis don't have very strong cylinder head decks so they flex. Nothing you can do to fix that short of O ring or filling the head or other things "studding coolant passages in head" which IMO doesnt work on mitus.

If you are building a 4g and want a MLS gasket, use the Cosworth gasket.

I know people here also rave about MP005 gaskets or whatever is the "nice" headgasket for 8 valves. IMO its complete junk. The fire ring doesnt wrap around the gasket so it gets pushed outwards. New felpro composites are much better and have copper wire inside the fire ring and a fire ring that wraps around the gasket so it won't push away from the cylinder.
I also know 4g63 guys are installing steel wire into the Felpro composite to give an even stronger, more aggressive fire ring. I would use .035" welding wire as i found .030 was a bit too small after I took apart that motor.
Of course many TDers still rely on their headgasket to be a fuse for bad/ghetto tuning.

[turbovanman²]

Cometic are junk.

the proper finish helps seal the coolant and oil passages, but the reason why the cylinders fail is because Cometic has no real fire ring around the cylinders. They are sorta like running a copper headgasket with no O ring.
Mitsubishis don't have very strong cylinder head decks so they flex. Nothing you can do to fix that short of O ring or filling the head or other things "studding coolant passages in head" which IMO doesnt work on mitus.

If you are building a 4g and want a MLS gasket, use the Cosworth gasket.

I know people here also rave about MP005 gaskets or whatever is the "nice" headgasket for 8 valves. IMO its complete junk. The fire ring doesnt wrap around the gasket so it gets pushed outwards. New felpro composites are much better and have copper wire inside the fire ring and a fire ring that wraps around the gasket so it won't push away from the cylinder.
I also know 4g63 guys are installing steel wire into the Felpro composite to give an even stronger, more aggressive fire ring. I would use .035" welding wire as i found .030 was a bit too small after I took apart that motor.
Of course many TDers still rely on their headgasket to be a fuse for bad/ghetto tuning.

MP gaskets rock, I have YET to make one fail unless I leaned the crap out of it. Speaking of that, when I melted my pistons, the gasket is still holding, :thumb:

[2.216VTurbo]

Ha, Brent is talking about Ghetto Tuning:lol: or is Ghetto Building a whole different thing:p?

[Aries_Turbo]

I know people here also rave about MP005 gaskets or whatever is the "nice" headgasket for 8 valves. IMO its complete junk. The fire ring doesnt wrap around the gasket so it gets pushed outwards.


I dont know what gasket you were holding. i have one sitting right here came out of my car (when i wrecked the valvetrain) that has a one piece fire ring that wraps around both sides of the gasket. It is wider too in critical areas like the front of the head.

automotive idiots can pop any headgasket ;)


New felpro composites are much better and have copper wire inside the fire ring and a fire ring that wraps around the gasket so it won't push away from the cylinder.

ive heard that felpro has a new design gasket but i havent seen it yet for our motors. ill have to take a run to the parts store and see if they have one in stock. the current design that i know about was TOTAL JUNK.


Of course many TDers still rely on their headgasket to be a fuse for bad/ghetto tuning.

you really expect us to take you seriously after we've seen your tuning and the failures that resulted from said tuning ;) (excluding your tuning from megasquirt of course)

good tuning has allowed one to hold even with accidental spikes to 44psi on reeves car.

Brian

[Force Fed Mopar]

The ARP studs I put in my customer's TSi came w/ a chart telling what to torque to, say NOT to follow manufacturer specs ;) The torque for them depends on what size studs they are (11mm, 12mm etc). IIRC I torqued the ones in the 2.6 to 85lb-ft. Also, I've read several times that they should be retorqued after the first heat cycle, or within a few days.

The new Felpro gasket have a lot of improvements over what they were 2-3 years ago. They have a 1-piece fire ring (siamesed, if you will) that also has a tab that reinforces the end corner cooling jacket holes (the ones that are close to the fire ring). DodgeZ has run 28 psi on one w/ no problem, I think he has pics of the gasket also.

[turbovanman²]

The ARP studs I put in my customer's TSi came w/ a chart telling what to torque to, say NOT to follow manufacturer specs ;) The torque for them depends on what size studs they are (11mm, 12mm etc). IIRC I torqued the ones in the 2.6 to 85lb-ft. Also, I've read several times that they should be retorqued after the first heat cycle, or within a few days.

The new Felpro gasket have a lot of improvements over what they were 2-3 years ago. They have a 1-piece fire ring (siamesed, if you will) that also has a tab that reinforces the end corner cooling jacket holes (the ones that are close to the fire ring). DodgeZ has run 28 psi on one w/ no problem, I think he has pics of the gasket also.

Well durr on the studs, ;) The sheet you get is a general guide, :D

Well everyone, stop the press, if Kevin can have a Felpro live, they must be good, :confused: :o

[Force Fed Mopar]

Well durr on the studs, ;) The sheet you get is a general guide, :D

Well no one seemed to have referred to it, so I mentioned it. You how it is, "Ahh I know how to do this, no need to look through these papers that came with them" ;)


Well everyone, stop the press, if Kevin can have a Felpro live, they must be good, :confused: :o

I should mention that he also has a good tune :p

[Aries_Turbo]

i saw the pics of the felpro that kevin posted up. is that the only spot that was beefed up?

the biggest issue that i had with those gaskets was the graphite material. it just doesnt seem as durable as the black stuff that the MP gaskets use.

felpro worked great on my geo metro though

Brian

[thedon809]

Something I found amazing on my car. It had a fel pro HG that wasn't blown. But the head had .016" of warpage. I ordered a mopar 005 gasket for it.

[turbovanman²]

i saw the pics of the felpro that kevin posted up. is that the only spot that was beefed up?

the biggest issue that i had with those gaskets was the graphite material. it just doesnt seem as durable as the black stuff that the MP gaskets use.

felpro worked great on my geo metro though

Brian

I don't like the graphite either, it breaks down very fast. I honestly believe if GM or the aftermarket had made a MP type gasket for the Quad 4, they wouldn't have ever had any head gasket issues, :o

[Aries_Turbo]

i thought the later quad 4 gasket was the MP type? i could be wrong though.

EDIT - nevermind. the latest is a armored graphite.

Brian

[turbovanman²]

i thought the later quad 4 gasket was the MP type? i could be wrong though.

EDIT - nevermind. the latest is a armored graphite.

Brian

Yep, :banghead:

Not sure if the last generation of Quad 4's, the name is eluding me right now, when they upped the engine size to 2.4L, still had that or an MLS.?

[tinyturbo]

Im using a late model mopar 3 layer gasket on my hybrid and had the same problem with the torque set at 65 it would blow coolant into the overflow at high boost, retorqued the studs to 85 and it hasnt leaked a drop.

[t3rse]

The production Buick V-6 stuff has head gasket problems like this. Everybody I know in the Buick world including myself torques the ARP studs or bolts to 80 ft lbs instead of the 65 ft lbs the instructions say ;)

The early instructions that came with the first set of studs I bought said 55 ft lbs with ARP lube :wow1: Those gaskets blew out almost immediately :confused:

Good Luck :thumb:

What they all said...more torque...I always did 90 ft# to keep from lifting.

[Ondonti]

I dont know what gasket you were holding. i have one sitting right here came out of my car (when i wrecked the valvetrain) that has a one piece fire ring that wraps around both sides of the gasket. It is wider too in critical areas like the front of the head.

automotive idiots can pop any headgasket ;)



ive heard that felpro has a new design gasket but i havent seen it yet for our motors. ill have to take a run to the parts store and see if they have one in stock. the current design that i know about was TOTAL JUNK.



you really expect us to take you seriously after we've seen your tuning and the failures that resulted from said tuning ;) (excluding your tuning from megasquirt of course)

good tuning has allowed one to hold even with accidental spikes to 44psi on reeves car.

Brian

Felpro might not care enough to make a good headgasket for the motor then. They have to compete against what is already available and maybe that would be a waste of money.

Sounds like the gasket purchased was not really an 005 gasket. That makes things interesting for whoever sold it ;)
Whatever gasket it was, it was junk. I couldnt believe someone would make a fire ring like that. sooner or later that gasket would fail regardless of tune since turbo motors have pretty high combustions pressures. I have some sort of 2.5L headgasket in my shed. I am goign to look at it now.

I resent the idea that The Junkyard had any sort of tuning before megasquirt. :D:D:D:D No tune ftw!

but numbers don't lie ;) Holding spikes on a car that has knock retard function really has nothing to do with good tuning. Just a stout motor and good headgasket. Also, just because a car spikes does not mean it leaned out :) You know very well that many people manage to go way beyond the ability of their stock ecu to save the engine. Put reeves setup on a stock motor with no fuel upgrades and well :yuck::yuck: of course I have seen that super lean mixtures won't even build boost (lean misfire) so I don't know if it would be able to blow up. Turbo motors that do not have the ability to control fuel and spark beyond the boost range they are tuned in are probably very likely to fail from a spike. Thats why the olden days here of people running 2 bar maps at 30+psi would = changing pistons between rounds. yes, you know you have seen people brag about changing pistons between rounds here and on TD. Maybe that was 5 years ago but still ;)
If seller claimed it was an 005 gasket I would have no clue as to the truth of that statement. Obviously NOT true.

[Aries_Turbo]

reeves car went a little lean on the 44psi spike. he and warren did tune the knock threshold table to better match the car as well. its not as sensitive as stock but obviously its running 2-3x the stock boost so the block is going to ring more but when pushed, it does pull some timing.

either way, 44psi is alot of boost on a stock headgasket.

Brian