Mystery Rocker

[Skibbe]

As a little background, I lost a cylinder. Pulled spark plug #3 and it was oily. Compression test on that cylinder came back with a big fat '0'. I tore into it tonight hoping it just needed a new head gasket. Pulled the valve cover off and see this:

http://cgwrr.com/Mopar/rocker/DSC_0092.JPG

WTF???

So it spit a rocker... OK. But Seseme Street taught me about playing the "One of these things just doesn't belong here" game... and that rocker sure doesn't match the other 7 standard sliders.

http://cgwrr.com/Mopar/rocker/DSC_0089.JPG
http://cgwrr.com/Mopar/rocker/DSC_0088.JPG

That valve is stuck open, which is the major problem... and that explains the chugging and probably the oil in #3. It doesn't look like the spring broke, but I don't have the tool to pull the valves so it looks like the head's going to have to come off before I figure out exactly what happend.

For a car that was taken care of so well, with all genuine Mopar replacement parts, I was very surprised to see this strangeness. Any thoughts as to what the previous owner's thinking would have been?:confused:

[turbovanman²]

It probably got chewed up when it got spit out. My monitor is really bad so the picture isn't 100% clear.

[MiniMopar]

That's one of those sintered iron jobbers (the MP followers). My guess is that it tore-up the original and/or spit it out. Whoever did the fix tossed in one they had kicking around.

Maybe the car was overheated and a valve guide dropped? BTW I was standing next to JT when you called...LOL. You could try prying down on the valve stem with something to see if it moves (protect the cam lobe with something). Maybe its behavior well tell you something. If you're pulling the head anyway....

[MiniMopar]

From what I see in the pic, the cam and the follower look fine. I'm guess the valve issue is what's causing whatever the original problem was.

[turbovanman²]

Based on what he said, I bet the valve is sticky or seized, hence the spit rocker, :(

[Skibbe]

That's one of those sintered iron jobbers (the MP followers). My guess is that it tore-up the original and/or spit it out. Whoever did the fix tossed in one they had kicking around.

Maybe the car was overheated and a valve guide dropped? BTW I was standing next to JT when you called...LOL. You could try prying down on the valve stem with something to see if it moves (protect the cam lobe with something). Maybe its behavior well tell you something. If you're pulling the head anyway....

So that answers the question of what the rocker is from, I hadn't seen one before.

Should have told you two to run over and have a look, I'm only a few blocks away!

I was going to leave it stock TI since it was running so smoothly... The gods frowned on that though, so I might as well TII it while the head is off. Other option is to bite the bullet and dissasemble the rusty black one and put the 2.5L TII SMEC drivetrain in this shell. So many choices... so many problems.

[BadAssPerformance]

Yeah, what Russ said...

btw, thought this one was going to stay T1?

[Tony Hanna]

I may be giving some bad information here, so anybody correct me if I'm wrong. The first thing I would do is gently peck straight down on the valve stem and see if you can get it unstuck. I'm guessing it got pushed past it's normal range of motion when the follower spit and it's hung on a burr or piece of carbon on the valve stem. If the valve comes free when you peck on it, I'd put a follower on that matches the others and try it out. If it doesn't work and the valve sticks again, you're not out anything but a follower, and if it works you just saved yourself some time and a head gasket.

[BadAssPerformance]

Interesting idea and worth a try Tony.

By 'gently peck' do you mean 'gently smack with a hammer'?

[Tony Hanna]

Interesting idea and worth a try Tony.

By 'gently peck' do you mean 'gently smack with a hammer'?

LOL, if I had a lawyer he'd probably caution me about liability issues, but I don't so here goes...:p
I should probably suggest using a wood dowel or a brass drift and smacking that with a hammer, but to be honest, if it was mine I'd just give the valve stem a couple good taps with a hammer and a 1/2" drive extension as a drift and see if it frees up.

[WVRampage]

LOL, if I had a lawyer he'd probably caution me about liability issues, but I don't so here goes...:p
I should probably suggest using a wood dowel or a brass drift and smacking that with a hammer, but to be honest, if it was mine I'd just give the valve stem a couple good taps with a hammer and a 1/2" drive extension as a drift and see if it frees up.
Thats what I would do Mine did that a while back and mine bent the lifter and the valve.

[BadAssPerformance]

Gotcha... guess he could probably pry on it with a screwdriver pivoting under the canshaft too.

[Tony Hanna]

That might do. I've used that method for reinstalling followers before. If it's hung up pretty good though it might take the shock from hitting it to break it loose. If the valve is bent like WVRampage suggested, my idea won't do a bit of good but if it's just a burr or piece of carbon, it should do the trick.

[Skibbe]

Yeah, what Russ said...

btw, thought this one was going to stay T1?

The idea was to keep it reliable and leave it alone in its TI configuration. That didn't work out.

I'll hit it with a hammer tonight.

But, if it's leaking oil into that cylinder, something must be messed up with the guide seal. Just having a stuck valve shouldn't cause an oil leak...

[BadAssPerformance]

If it snaps free with a rat-a-tap-tap on the end, might be worth just changing valve seals with the head still on the car.

Or, since the rocker had been replaced anyways, there possibly is something f'ed about it which caused it to spit the stock rocker out. Was the RTV on the valvecover new? Maybe thats why it was for sale on ebay?

[mpgmike]

My experience with these heads is that the exhaust valve guide dropped (it was exhaust wasn't it?) because the valve siezed. If you take a small screwdriver I bet you can lift the valve stem seal on that cylinder with little to no effort. Fix is to remove the head and have that guide (and probably that valve) replaced.

Mike

[Skibbe]

Mike- That's the intake side.

Ok, I gave it a smack and it popped right back up.

But, not having a valve spring compressor, and having no experience with valve work, I think I'll just pull the head and see what's up.

[MiniMopar]

Yeah, I would say that something's still up. It's obviously happened to it before.

[BadAssPerformance]

I have a spring compressor or two but dont have the adapter for the air compressor... probably good idea just to yank it tho... unless you want to drive it to the CMC show first ;)

[Tony Hanna]

I'd just find another follower and try it out. Worst case you might have to drive it home on 3 cylinders and pull the head off anyway. Best case, it would run fine.

[Skibbe]

I have a spring compressor or two but dont have the adapter for the air compressor... probably good idea just to yank it tho... unless you want to drive it to the CMC show first ;)


Can I enter the truck/trailer/car combo in FWD modified? Even the dolly has a sweet blue/silver theme going. :thumb:

[BadAssPerformance]

lol, that would be cool... I think a 'rig' usually ends up in 'special interest' I recall a few years back a ram pulling a boat and both were painted similarly :thumb:

[Turbodave]

Mike, I've got a spring compressor, air compressor adapter and one of your pizza wheels if you wanted to take a ride up here.

[Skibbe]

lol, that would be cool... I think a 'rig' usually ends up in 'special interest' I recall a few years back a ram pulling a boat and both were painted similarly :thumb:

They said they would make the classes up as they go... so if you bring the Daytona on the trailer, and Tommy brings his charger on the trailer again, we can all place in the 'Trailer Queens' category. :lol:

Actually I think I'll be stuck at the house working.

[Skibbe]

Mike, I've got a spring compressor, air compressor adapter and one of your pizza wheels if you wanted to take a ride up here.

Thanks for the offer. I do have to get out there and pick up that wheel, and I owe you $10 for RSVP'ing and then ditching your meeting...:o

I actually think the adaptor from my spiffy Craftsman compression tester would work to pump up the cylinder. The gauge is separate from the hose and if I remember correctly, has the same quick connect as a compressor hose.

If I try this, what should I get besides new valve seals? Keepers? Replace the spring?

[Turbodave]

Thanks for the offer. I do have to get out there and pick up that wheel, and I owe you $10 for RSVP'ing and then ditching your meeting...:o

I actually think the adaptor from my spiffy Craftsman compression tester would work to pump up the cylinder. The gauge is separate from the hose and if I remember correctly, has the same quick connect as a compressor hose.

If I try this, what should I get besides new valve seals? Keepers? Replace the spring?

Don't worry about the meeting money, I didn't get food until after everyone arrived because the weather was so questionable. Things worked out just out perfect on food/money etc...

The hose from your Craftsman compression tester will work, just need to remove the schrader valve from it or else you'll do this: http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2032

I would probably just pull everything off, make sure the guide is firmly seated in the head and replace the seal.

[turbovanman²]

Looks like someone has had issues before, with my computer at home, you can see the nice new shiny lifter.

[Skibbe]

Looks like someone has had issues before, with my computer at home, you can see the nice new shiny lifter.

I suppose it is possible that it spit the rocker out before, but everything looked fine and the valve didn't stick before. So someone thought the rocker was the problem and bought a new one along with a lifter and threw it back together.

I ordered new seals. When they get here I'll try the quick fix first. I won't be out much... and if it doesn't work, I'll just pull the head later.

[MiniMopar]

The #4 exhaust cam/follower on my CSX got trashed a few months ago. It was a FM475, so it had the slider cam. I took the valve train apart and found that some of the oil squirters in the cam caps were clogged. Strangely the one for the trashed follower was fine.

To see if there was something up with lubrication, I ran it with the valve cover off. Just tuck a piece of clean cardboard across the front and back of the valvetrain area so that it acts like a funnel for the oil. Rev it up and keep an eye on that follower to see if it is doing anything strange or making any odd noises. Also check that it is getting proper lubrication.

[Skibbe]

Parts showed up today. I couldn't find anything amiss after getting the spring removed. The guide looked ok to my untrained eye. I put a new seal and keepers on that valve, but the ones I pulled off looked ok too. The valve didn't look bent or anything.

I buttoned it back up with the one sintered rocker, but I moved it to the exhaust valve on #3 and moved the stocker to the intake side. That way if it comes out again I'll know if it's a valve or a rocker problem.

Didn't get a chance to start it yet, have to run some new vacuum lines.

[BadAssPerformance]

Good idea on swapping the odd one to double check the issue.

[Skibbe]

You know... I was thinking about the valve seal replacement I did last night, and something doesn't make sense. What is suppose to hold the seal down on the head? The old one was about halfway up the stem when I pulled it, and I didn't think about it at the time and just slid the new one down the stem till it hit the head.

Was the bronze valve guide supposed to be sticking up out of the head??? Is the seal suppose to go around that?

If so, I think I just found the problem. Should have pulled another spring on a good valve to see what it was supposed to look like last night... doh!

[GLHSKEN]

THE VALVE SEATS PRESS IN. If the seat drops... your rocker situation is the result. My machinist machines a grove around the seat and "clips" it in place.

[Skibbe]

So... now that I'm taking the head off... TI or TII?

[GLHSKEN]

IF YOU ARE NOT SURE, simply fire her up. I bought a mini for 200, Ran like crap. Got it home and saw the rocker off. Thought.. hmm that's the reason. Stripped the van, stored the head. Reinstalled the rocker and slapped the head on my daughters car. OOPS... cam wasn't even touching the rocker.

[turbovanman²]

THE VALVE SEATS PRESS IN. If the seat drops... your rocker situation is the result. My machinist machines a grove around the seat and "clips" it in place.

I think you mean valve GUIDE, :D :nod:

I get all my heads done with clips, the new valve guides come with them now so no more dropping guides.

Mike, TII all the way, :nod:

[TurboJerry]

I've seen seats drop in cars at the junk yards many times. Can give the same symptom as a dropped guide as well.

[GLHSKEN]

I've seen seats drop in cars at the junk yards many times. Can give the same symptom as a dropped guide as well.

Simon.... :lol: :lol:

[butchsuppe]

An old trick to holding valves up with no air is to insert a peice of rope in to sparkplug + gently turn the motor over to compess the rope aganist the valve make sure you leave enought rope out so you can remove it after the sprg is back on, mouse but it works:thumb:

[turbovanman²]

Simon.... :lol: :lol:


Yes, I agree, lol, but you said clip the dropped seat, you don't clip seats, :p :lol:

[GLHSKEN]

PHHHHTTTT... Got me!!

[TurboJerry]

I machine the guides for the E clips myself. That way I can use the better guides made for the "performance" engines...... By the way, I meant *valve* seats drop, not the passenger seats!

[turbovanman²]

I machine the guides for the E clips myself. That way I can use the better guides made for the "performance" engines...... By the way, I meant *valve* seats drop, not the passenger seats!


Missed that one, ;)