Wild alcohol injection idea-thoughts and comments!

[turbovanman²]

Ok, I am flat broke now, spent enough on the beast and have other things to buy this year sooooooo, based on the fact I can't buy an alcohol system, my mind has been going around in circles. I am getting detonation at the end of 2nd gear and into 3rd with a 70/30 mix of C16 and 94 octane, if this doesn't work, I will have to drain the tank at the track and run pure C16 but thats a headache.

With boost, obviously we can't run a rubber hose to the intake with jets to regulate alcohol, so would this work. Hook up a hose to the air intake, and regulate it using carb jets, of which I have many kicking around. Theres no boost there and the vacuum would do the work. Would this work? I know it has to go thru the turbo, thru the IC, then into the engine? would this damage the turbo? Thinking out loud so let me know if this would work or not? otherwise, I am draining my tank at the track, :(

[glhs875]

Ok, I am flat broke now, spent enough on the beast and have other things to buy this year sooooooo, based on the fact I can't buy an alcohol system, my mind has been going around in circles. I am getting detonation at the end of 2nd gear and into 3rd with a 70/30 mix of C16 and 94 octane, if this doesn't work, I will have to drain the tank at the track and run pure C16 but thats a headache.

With boost, obviously we can't run a rubber hose to the intake with jets to regulate alcohol, so would this work. Hook up a hose to the air intake, and regulate it using carb jets, of which I have many kicking around. Theres no boost there and the vacuum would do the work. Would this work? I know it has to go thru the turbo, thru the IC, then into the engine? would this damage the turbo? Thinking out loud so let me know if this would work or not? otherwise, I am draining my tank at the track, :(


I don't know how that would work, but I feel enough alcohol can control detonation better than C16. So your on the right track!!!

[Tony Hanna]

Simon,
Wouldn't you have to build some sort of venturi into the intake plumbing to get enough vacuum to draw the alcohol?
Personally, I'd just use an old efi pump and spray the alky into the intercooler plumbing just before the throttlebody. Most of your pumps have a 1 way valve built in, so you don't absolutely have to have a check valve or solenoid.
The only expensive parts of a setup like that are the pump, nozzle, and pressure switch. Even with that, you can get creative. Make a fitting that will accept the carb jets you have laying around and there's a tunable nozzle.
Surely you have an old turbo fuel pump laying around. I've even used an oil pressure switch with a bleed on it as an adjustable boost pressure switch.
I'd be really surprised if you don't have most of what you'd need already laying around.
Just 1 thing though if you decide to go that route. Be sure and test your pump before you use the system. I've seen efi pumps lock up from sitting for too long with alcohol in them.
Have Fun!

[Rattlesnake]

That is not going to work:( . The water/alcohol needs to be presurized for good atomization. If it is not properly atomized it will upset the a/f mixture and cause misfire. It should be introduced directly to the intake manifold before or after the throttle body for equal proportioning, the are other fancy ways but that is the simplest and best way. If you introduce the w/a through the turbo, once it goes through the intercooler, that vapor-like atomized water/alcohol will become liquid; that is a phenomenal called condenstion. Before you drawn mini check www.snowperformance.net
You can buy a 140psi pump for $40 and a trigger sensor based on boost which is adjustable for about $15 and you can do the rest. I did development for him for 3 years with my TD. If it works? Taking advantage of the capabilities to the water/alki I gained 60lbs/ft and 24hp only playing with little timming and boost.How good is it? 36psi, pump gas and 25minutes of road course racing on a 127F degrees track temp with no knocking. My last test: 47psi:eek: on pump gas from first to fourth gear and wheel spin at 120mph with no knocking on the monitor.

Reinaldo Moloon

[turbovanman²]

Thats why I love this site, you guys rock!

[10G OMNI]

on pump gas from first to fourth gear and wheel spin at 120mph with no knocking on the monitor.

Reinaldo Moloon


So your telling us you get wheel spin at 200km/h thats like spining through the 1/4 mile,sorry i dont buy it.

[turbovanman²]

So your telling us you get wheel spin at 200km/h thats like spining through the 1/4 mile,sorry i dont buy it.

I do, he has a 400whp R/T, :nod:

[Rattlesnake]

I do, he has a 400whp R/T, :nod:
Correction: 2.5 SOHC 406whp and 456lbs/ft @ 36psi. When I mean wheel spin I don't mean long burn out, peak torque is reached through rpm range and wheel spins for 1-2 seconds. Yes, at 120mph @ 47psi. So, if at 36psi 456lbs/ft where produce how much torque increase an extra 11psi will produce? Common sense will tell you that the answer will light up street tires at high speeds, specially a FWD car because of the physics involved.

[89acclaim]

http://www.key-ideas.com/2ndWaterInjection.htm

You can run into wearing away the compressor after a bit of time though, if you inject before the turbo.

Daniel Merrill

[Aries_Turbo]

use an old T1 pump and some cold starts... carl (dbltrbl) did for years. you just cant let the alky (ethanol) sit in them for months without using them or they corrode. no big deal. see here --> http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1193 for a DIY controller that i designed and tested to control it.

Brian

[guyd_15]

Simon,
Check out Carl's (aka DblTrbl) new set up it uses a T1 fuel pump and 4 misting nozzles and a pressure switch. I bet you have a fuel pump laying around and a pressure switch. I think I'm going to copy his set up, short on cash like you. I've seen his car run at E-town, the set up isn't pretty, it gets results. Here's the link:
http://66.78.24.116/Mopar%20Pages/alcohol_spray.htm
Hope it helps.
Guy

[The S is Silent]

http://www.key-ideas.com/2ndWaterInjection.htm

You can run into wearing away the compressor after a bit of time though, if you inject before the turbo.

Daniel Merrill

Injecting before the turbo is going to defeat the purpose of doing an alcohol injection setup. The main reason for injecting alcohol is not to add fuel and give an octane boost. The main reason most TD'ers use alcohol is chemical intercooling. You are injecting in a liquid, and as it vaporizes, it sucks heat out of the air. Sure...there is some octane boost by using alcohol, but the cooling benefits are probably orders of magnitude better.

[Tony Hanna]

you just cant let the alky (ethanol) sit in them for months without using them or they corrode. no big deal. see here --> http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1193 for a DIY controller that i designed and tested to control it.

Brian

I'll second that about letting stuff sit. When the trans in my old Daytona died, it sat quite awhile before John got it and put it back together. By the time he got around to testing the pump for the alky (methanol) injection it had locked up (it was brand new when the system went together).
I haven't heard of one dying while being used though. That's a bonus.

[turbovanman²]

I doubt I can throw anything together that fast before Friday. If I had my old IC on, the cold starts were already mounted.

How would I figure how many cold starts to use? I have 3 of the high flow VW cold starts. I could run my old turbo pump, use a voltage regulator to control the pump. Just need to figure out how much voltage and how many cold starts. Should I put the cold starts before the IC like Clay's link did or before the T/B?

[The S is Silent]

Put the coldstarts after the IC. If you put them before the IC, they will reduce the efficiency of the intercooler by reducing the temperature of the intake air. The heat transfer that occurs in your intercooler is a function of area, heat transfer coefficient, and temperature difference between the ambient air and the intake air.

Your area is set by the amount of IC you have. The only way to change that is to get a new IC. I don't think you want to do that.

The heat transfer coefficient is tricky. It's mostly a function of the phases of the two fluids transfering heat, and the speed at which they are flowing. One of the only things I can see that will change this is adding an IC sprayer.

The temperature difference between the fluids (outside air and intake air) is what you will be messing with when place the alcohol injectors before the IC. The IC alone is going to allow you to get to get a limited number of degrees away from ambient, because of it's thermal efficiency. Unless your IC is severly undersized (not enough area) then the intake air will reach about the same temperature if the intake air is 160 *F or 170 *F. If you put the alky injection before the IC, you are taking away 30 or 40 degrees of heat transfer that you were already getting for free from your IC.

If you put them after the IC, you will be adding additional cooling on top of what the IC is limited to.

I hope I did a good enough job of explaining that.

[ShadowBrad]

Definately after the IC. As was said above, the IC can only cool to a minimum of the ambiant air temperature. The alchy injection on the other hand can cool quite a bit below ambiant temps so you spray it after the IC to cool the cooled air even more. :d

[turbovanman²]

Yep, that all makes sense.

Now to figure out the logistics of it all, :confused:

[John B]

Retard the ignition timing a couple of degrees and advance the cam a couple of degrees. Then see if it's better.

[John B]

BTW mine won't run at all so you can trust my advice...

[turbovanman²]

Retard the ignition timing a couple of degrees and advance the cam a couple of degrees. Then see if it's better.


I tried that but are you talking Alky though?

[BadAssPerformance]

...I will have to drain the tank at the track and run pure C16 but thats a headache....

Get a 1 gallon cell and a spare pump :thumb:

[John B]

Not alky, just the usual stuff for easing detonation problems. Retarding the ignition reduces detonation but increases egt which causes detonation. Catch 22. But advancing the cam timing reduces egt so you're in the zone again. But you know all that already and I'm just posting it for those who haven't read it before.:) I hope my car will run as good as I BS someday...:o

[turbovanman²]

Get a 1 gallon cell and a spare pump :thumb:

I was thinking about that but for the same money and less headache, I can go alky and not have to run C16 anymore, :thumb:

[turbovanman²]

Before you drawn mini check www.snowperformance.net
You can buy a 140psi pump for $40 and a trigger sensor based on boost which is adjustable for about $15 and you can do the rest.

Reinaldo Moloon

Sorry, I must be blind, checked out the site, I can only see a 220psi pump and no $15 adjustable switch, unless your talking about the WOT switch?

[turbovanman²]

What do you guys think of this-

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/WATER-INJECTION-Alcohol-Intercooler-Turbo-Supercharger_W0QQitemZ8065181333QQcategoryZ42604QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Tony Hanna]

What do you guys think of this-

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/WATER-INJECTION-Alcohol-Intercooler-Turbo-Supercharger_W0QQitemZ8065181333QQcategoryZ42604QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Looks like a pretty good setup to start with. Personally, I like using the fuel side of a nitrous nozzle due to the availability of jets for easy tuning but the nozzle with that kit looks similar to the ones you can order from McMaster-Carr, so you should be able to get some different sizes if you need them.

[cordes]

To test the flow rate of the cold start injectors, just run a line to it, and then hook up some power. Shoot the fuel into a graduated cyl for a set amount of time, and then do some calcualtions for what volume it would flow.

The cheapest easiest alky setups I have seen are just a vac line going to a well sealed container with alky in it, and a feed line in the bottom. Oh, this will take too long to explain. Allow me to paint you a picture.

[turbovanman²]

To test the flow rate of the cold start injectors, just run a line to it, and then hook up some power. Shoot the fuel into a graduated cyl for a set amount of time, and then do some calcualtions for what volume it would flow.

The cheapest easiest alky setups I have seen are just a vac line going to a well sealed container with alky in it, and a feed line in the bottom. Oh, this will take too long to explain. Allow me to paint you a picture.

What am I looking at for volume? I guess I will do that tonight and see, I will do 14 secs as thats my average run down the 1/4.

[cordes]

What am I looking at for volume? I guess I will do that tonight and see, I will do 14 secs as thats my average run down the 1/4.

Just do it for 6 or 10 seconds, and you will be able to easily convert it to CC/min since you are Canadian and all...

Also, I don't know of any one who has run an alky setup like the one I have pictured, but I do know that there are many who will use a setup like that so that they can run a weak pump with ease.

[4cefedomni]

if you want to go real cheap you can do what i did for my first car an 85 lebaron t1 the blow through setup anyhow i used a windshield washer resevoir and pump and (i got it at princess auto for $7) and used methyl hydrate (METHANOL) and sprayed it in the intake. with this and a totally stock fuel system i was running 23psi without detonation

[turbovanman²]

if you want to go real cheap you can do what i did for my first car an 85 lebaron t1 the blow through setup anyhow i used a windshield washer resevoir and pump and (i got it at princess auto for $7) and used methyl hydrate (METHANOL) and sprayed it in the intake. with this and a totally stock fuel system i was running 23psi without detonation


How do you get it into the engine, without having the boost blow it back out into the pump?

[4cefedomni]

it was in the intake before the turbo i did that for a long time with no visable ware on the compressor blades

[boost geek]

I am thinking of using an old water fire extinguisher, holds 100+ psi, couple gallons of water. Need a solenoid, jets and a holder, have a 15 psi Hobbs switch already.

[turbovanman²]

it was in the intake before the turbo i did that for a long time with no visable ware on the compressor blades


I might just try it for one night of racing. I won't damage the blades doing 8 runs, :eyebrows:

[Ground Rat]

Have you thought about using propane injection to control detonation?

[turbovanman²]

Have you thought about using propane injection to control detonation?

Go on?

[Whorse]

Diesels love propane injection :D

[Ground Rat]

Werd, so do the viper guys. I believe BTR Viper sells kits. I can't seem to get to www.btrviper.com right now for more info though. I think most propane kits for gasoline engines are used in conjunction w/ a nitrous kit, but I don't see why you couldn't use just the propane injection on your van.

[Tony Hanna]

To test the flow rate of the cold start injectors, just run a line to it, and then hook up some power. Shoot the fuel into a graduated cyl for a set amount of time, and then do some calcualtions for what volume it would flow.

The cheapest easiest alky setups I have seen are just a vac line going to a well sealed container with alky in it, and a feed line in the bottom. Oh, this will take too long to explain. Allow me to paint you a picture.

I had kicked around the idea of using boost to pressurize the alky tank when I was working out the first system for the daytona, but I got paranoid about a backfire somehow igniting the methanol and scrapped the idea in favor of a 90 psi pump.

[cordes]

I had kicked around the idea of using boost to pressurize the alky tank when I was working out the first system for the daytona, but I got paranoid about a backfire somehow igniting the methanol and scrapped the idea in favor of a 90 psi pump.


That would be bad news for sure. I never really thought of that before.

[Tony Hanna]

That would be bad news for sure. I never really thought of that before.

I'm not even sure it could happen given the length of the vacuum line to the tank, and I'm sure you could use a flashback supressor for a torch in the line for added safety, but I had 6 gallons of methanol in the passanger compartment (hatch) of the Daytona, so I decided not to take any chances.

[cordes]

I'm not even sure it could happen given the length of the vacuum line to the tank, and I'm sure you could use a flashback supressor for a torch in the line for added safety, but I had 6 gallons of methanol in the passanger compartment (hatch) of the Daytona, so I decided not to take any chances.


Oh, if it is in the pass compartment for sure. The first time I saw a car on fire at a machine gun shoot, I knew that I would never want to be in one when it was. Those things go up fast!

[Tony Hanna]

Oh, if it is in the pass compartment for sure. The first time I saw a car on fire at a machine gun shoot, I knew that I would never want to be in one when it was. Those things go up fast!

That's the truth! I got to watch a KIA burn down in the middle of the road awhile back. Once it got going good, it went quick.

[Frank]

Something that occured to me dude, is that the heavy car of yours causes a slow acceleration. With that slow acceleration, causes longer dwell times in the bad rpm points. While you still will want to keep the alky because of fuel and lack of good intercooling, I think switching to a g-head would help immensely.


Frank

[turbovanman²]

Something that occured to me dude, is that the heavy car of yours causes a slow acceleration. With that slow acceleration, causes longer dwell times in the bad rpm points. While you still will want to keep the alky because of fuel and lack of good intercooling, I think switching to a g-head would help immensely.


Frank

Maybe but you and Ken have to remember one thing, this is my DD, I drag race a few times in the summer, I don't want the less torque due to the G-head. I will just get around it, Simon style, :eyebrows: :nod:

[glhs875]

Maybe but you and Ken have to remember one thing, this is my DD, I drag race a few times in the summer, I don't want the less torque due to the G-head. I will just get around it, Simon style, :eyebrows: :nod:

If tuned right, a G head will make great torque! And it will be easier to control detonation in the higher boost levels. the main thing that makes a swirl head a little more torquey than a G is the fast burn properties, which in a sense is like running alot of ignition advance. But from what I've seen with my car and with others running alot of boost (20psi+) with a swirl head, is detonation issues, even with a ton of timing retard under boost. Kevin Davis had problems, Huey broke a spark plug with race gas just this past friday at the track. And an auto trans amplifies the detonation problems!! Some people may not have problems with detonation with a swirl, but I always have!

[turbovanman²]

Thanks for the info, :D

Gonna stick with it. STephane also posted some interesting info that would shock alot of you G-head lovers, :eyebrows:

I am also going 16 valve in the winter or spring of next year so putting a G-head on would be a giant waste of time.

My alky system works, coming home 25 psi, 89 octane, not one trace of rattle and boy, does it pull like a mofo, :thumb:

[Frank]

Thanks for the info, :D

Gonna stick with it. STephane also posted some interesting info that would shock alot of you G-head lovers, :eyebrows:

I am also going 16 valve in the winter or spring of next year so putting a G-head on would be a giant waste of time.

My alky system works, coming home 25 psi, 89 octane, not one trace of rattle and boy, does it pull like a mofo, :thumb:

I actually its not G-head lovers, I know Ken loves the swirl heads alot, but only on his light 2.2L cars typically. We just want to see you get the most out of your engine with DD in mind. But since you are going 16v, then cool.


Frank

[turbovanman²]

I actually its not G-head lovers, I know Ken loves the swirl heads alot, but only on his light 2.2L cars typically. We just want to see you get the most out of your engine with DD in mind. But since you are going 16v, then cool.


Frank


I know, and thats why I love this site, we help and watch out for each other, :thumb:

[cordes]

I know, and thats why I love this site, we help and watch out for each other, :thumb:

Oh, lets face it, we need a huge collective voice of reason while trying to push these cars as hard as we do. Without you guys, I would be hoofing it every where while a few heaps of melted metal sit in my driveway for sure.