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Turbulence
09-28-2009, 12:25 PM
Picked up the Horizon 4 years ago or so. This is a long term project with an emphasis on inexpensive. The car sat for almost a year as I awaited funds to do things to it. I was driving a 90 turbo Voyager (The Fridge) at that time. I did the 5 lug swap over the first winter as one of the front wheel bearings was ready to fall off. I had minivan disc brakes on hand so they went on. After the turbo mini was written off the Hor became my dd for about a year until the cat plugged and it burned a valve. I ended up unplugging the cat in Mike Mís garage 2 hours away from home (thanks Mike) at the end of a cold winterís day. I drove it like that for three months and felt like the character pigpen from Charley Brown as the oil smoke would billow out around the car when idling. In the end it was running on 3 cylinders with the oil pressure light flickering on at idle.

By that point I had looked into the 2.5T I had on hand from the totaled mini and decided it was too worn to get much use out of. A friend of Mike Mís had a complete 2.5 n/a motor he had planned to use for mini stock racing but didnít need. I bought it for the overwhelming sum of one large slurpee. I decided to use it as a short term mock up and get it running motor having not installed a motor before (short termÖyeah right). That led to the thread about drilling the block for an oil return. Pulled the balance shafts while I was there. I installed the turbo G head from my worn 2.5 T with a garret TII turbo. So, higher compression n/a bottom end with light weight rods and pistons with the G headís slightly lower compression (if the stock n/a is 9.1 this combo is whatÖ8.6 or 7 or?)

Finally decided to pull the motor and trans out of the hor and I found this:

http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/mwr132/IMG_0376.jpg

Took 4 months (another long story) to get that to look like this:

http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/mwr132/IMG_0565.jpg

Turbulence
09-28-2009, 12:34 PM
A year ago last May I got the motor and trans in with 89 minivan electronics and drove it over the summer non-intercooled. With a vac line straight from an intake source it ran 7-8 lbs of boost and seemed to like it. This summer I managed to squeeze in a Porsche 944 turbo intercooler I had sitting on the shelf and bumped the boost to 10lbs. Felt really good. Exhaust is cobbled together (free) 2.5 downpipe and 2.25 pipe with a super turbo round muffler previously residing on a 90 Daytona VNT. It has a cutout but I wonít likely use it until this motor gets replaced with a real one.

So finally today I took it to the track (last day of the season). I was running Ĺ tank of 94 with 1 gallon of C16. I was hoping for a 14.99 but not expecting much more than a low 15. Slicks were my saviour.

It was spitting rain off and on, was around 55 degrees with a strong gusty head wind. The track was busy so there was a 45 - 50 minute wait between runs. My first run netted a 14.99 at 89 mph with a 2.33 60 foot with 10 lbs boost. I was really stoked!! 2 passes later I got a 14.5 at 90 mph with a 2.0 sixty foot also at 10lbs of boost. OK time to turn up the boost a bit and cross my fingers that I donít window the block or some such nonsense. My next run was my best run of the day 14.103 at 92 again with a 2.00 sixty at 12lbs of boost. I was giggling like a little girl all the way back to the pits. The car felt really strong all the way through. I was ahead of the Shelby Mustang until just after half track when he blew by me. That was fun :D
So here is the car, as it sits with the 90 Sundance RS wheels and original lip spoiler I found at the wreckers last week.

http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/mwr132/IMG_1014.jpg
http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/mwr132/IMG_1015.jpg
http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/mwr132/IMG_1016.jpg

The rad is a Chinese aluminum Honda unit. So far so good. I had to relocate the oil filter to get the intercooler in.

contraption22
09-28-2009, 12:36 PM
Very cool! I was thinking of trying the same setup, as in a G-head on a TBI shortblock for my Acclaim project. Good to know it's been working for you so far!

"Top Fuel" Bender
09-28-2009, 01:26 PM
Looks good
The omni I've been racing for years started with a trans. mount that looked the same, some guy ran over a curb in the snow and pushed the trans back

Vigo
09-29-2009, 12:16 AM
i think the turbo tbi bottom end is a better option than sitting around without a running turbo car lamenting the fact that you're too stuck up to use a tbi bottom end. 14.02 is plenty fun, and i bet it can take more.

The car looks cool with those wheels. sleeper but better than stockers. You must be the only person to make those wheels look good.:)

Turbulence
09-29-2009, 02:04 AM
Very cool! I was thinking of trying the same setup, as in a G-head on a TBI shortblock for my Acclaim project. Good to know it's been working for you so far!

It amazes me how well it seems to take it, even with stock T1 electronics. Even if I find a turbo bottom end to replace it I'll be tempted to see how far it goes.


Looks good
The omni I've been racing for years started with a trans. mount that looked the same, some guy ran over a curb in the snow and pushed the trans back

That makes sense, the rest of the car looks un-repaired. When I found it I knew why it vibrated so much running on three cylinders.


i think the turbo tbi bottom end is a better option than sitting around without a running turbo car lamenting the fact that you're too stuck up to use a tbi bottom end. 14.02 is plenty fun, and i bet it can take more.

The car looks cool with those wheels. sleeper but better than stockers. You must be the only person to make those wheels look good.:)

Yeah the tbi bottom end has been a great deal of fun. It is also in line with what I think draws many of us to turbo mopars - it's not supposed to work - like Shadow's 10 second none common block motor - or 11 & 12 second minivans, or turbo 4 door K-cars for that matter (good luck at GRM btw).

The wheels kinda shocked me. I put them on only because they were 8 pounds lighter than the 14 inch steelies I had on it. Once they were on I really liked the look, just as you said, sleeper but better than stockers

contraption22
09-29-2009, 09:40 AM
Yeah for me I think it would be ideal... other than still likely having to pull the motor out to drill the block for the oil return... unless i just plumb it into the pan. Hmm.

Vigo
09-29-2009, 10:54 AM
unless i just plumb it into the pan. Hmm.

You can just take the egr pipe off the tbi motor and use that to make a return. I have done it.

strang3majik
10-03-2009, 08:54 AM
You can just take the egr pipe off the tbi motor and use that to make a return. I have done it.

whats involved in doing that ;)

I'm getting evil ideas from this thread...haha

cordes
10-03-2009, 11:47 AM
Very cool project. That is a lot of fun for the money invested for sure.

Turbulence
10-03-2009, 08:41 PM
whats involved in doing that ;)

I'm getting evil ideas from this thread...haha

Water pump first....:D


Very cool project. That is a lot of fun for the money invested for sure.

I think I have about $2000 into the car including the purchase price.

Yeah it has been a whole lot of fun. I kinda got scared when I saw the boost gauge hit 12lbs half way through my 14.10 run, but not enough to let off :D. Next year I'll work on my launch. If I can knock off a tenth or so I might get into the 13's.

Glad I started with slicks. I would still be battling in the 15's I'm sure without them.

Martin

Mike M
10-03-2009, 11:02 PM
Sniff sniff, it sure has come a long way since the stuffed cat days! I think it was the first car to ever actually get fixed in the garage... well, if you call an angle grinder and a jack handle fixing...

Hey, you know what would look really good... chrome window visors :nod:

Turbulence
10-04-2009, 12:21 AM
Sniff sniff, it sure has come a long way since the stuffed cat days! I think it was the first car to ever actually get fixed in the garage... well, if you call an angle grinder and a jack handle fixing...

Hey, you know what would look really good... chrome window visors :nod:

A simple fix, but a fix none the less. I was just elated that it was easy to figure out. It was a very loud two hour drive home.

Those chrome visors may fly off at speed :eyebrows: They really belong on a 79 omni with wood grain and a roof rack.

blk86trbo
10-04-2009, 02:16 AM
The Mopar Performance FWD speed book actually recommends a copper head shim to lower compression safely to use the TBI shortblock.

Also, use a spare oil return tube (the one that bolts to the bottom of the turbo), flip it around, and weld it to the oil pan in the correct orientation...much easier than drilling a block for the oil return.

cordes
10-04-2009, 02:27 AM
The Mopar Performance FWD speed book actually recommends a copper head shim to lower compression safely to use the TBI shortblock.

Also, use a spare oil return tube (the one that bolts to the bottom of the turbo), flip it around, and weld it to the oil pan in the correct orientation...much easier than drilling a block for the oil return.

That post was chalk full of awesome info. Very nice. :clap:

blk86trbo
10-04-2009, 02:46 AM
That post was chalk full of awesome info. Very nice. :clap:

LOL ha ha glad you liked it :thumb:

Yeah, don't pitch a good N/A common block...you're just a head shim and a oil return in the pan away from a turbo motor!

strang3majik
10-04-2009, 04:56 AM
Yeah, don't pitch a good N/A common block...you're just a head shim and a oil return in the pan away from a turbo motor!

:evil:

Turbulence
10-04-2009, 11:04 AM
The Mopar Performance FWD speed book actually recommends a copper head shim to lower compression safely to use the TBI shortblock.

Also, use a spare oil return tube (the one that bolts to the bottom of the turbo), flip it around, and weld it to the oil pan in the correct orientation...much easier than drilling a block for the oil return.

Interesting that the MP FWD book mentions using a tbi block, that 's cool. Great idea for the oil return. And way less expensive than buying (and snapping) those big bits.

Martin

Turbulence
03-13-2010, 06:40 PM
Brief update. The Horizon is buried under boxes in the garage for another month or so but....

Picked this up in December, drove it home 2.5 hours in -30* weather on worn out tires on blade wheels. I swapped the wheels out today.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/mwr132/IMG_1226.jpg

Its a rusty 91 es, 2.5T with Ross 40 over forged pistons, ARP head studs, SRT4 intercooler tucked behind the bumper reinforcement (likely little air flow), 523 with a 6 puck clutch (on/off like a switch). 2.5 inch exhaust with a flo pro muffler. Eibach springs as well.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/mwr132/IMG_1227.jpg

The only problem with it is oil pressure (oil light came on at idle when I got home with it). Still sounds fine though. I put a gauge on it but haven't driven it around. Idling on the driveway it starts out at 40 and drops down to about 8. Once the snow is gone I'll plate it and drive it a bit with a gage on it and see what happens. I suspect oil pressure has been an issue for a while given what I found in the trunk. Hopefully its nothing serious.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/mwr132/IMG_1228.jpg

Looking forward to tearing into it. The motor is going in the Hor, a friend is taking the 523 and springs. What's left with get dragged away.

TheCanadian007
03-14-2010, 05:36 PM
I dig the PVC intercooler plumbing :thumb:

Turbulence
03-14-2010, 08:18 PM
I dig the PVC intercooler plumbing :thumb:

It's the third car I've seen set up that way. So long as they don't use rubber plumbing elbows and connectors they seem to hold together for a few years. So long as they don't go crazy with boost.

This one has a swirl head, the hor currenly has a G. I haven't decided yet which way I'll go but I'm leaning towards the G.

Martin

ShadowFromHell
03-14-2010, 08:43 PM
Ive ran 25psi on sewer pipe! Sad to see you parting the black 4 door thou. Id love to have one of those.

Turbulence
05-24-2010, 08:36 PM
Ive ran 25psi on sewer pipe! Sad to see you parting the black 4 door thou. Id love to have one of those.

I wondered whether I should part it or repair it before I picked it up, but it is dirty inside, lots of trim pieces missing or broken and there is more rust than I'd want to deal with.

Martin
89 Horizon

Turbulence
05-24-2010, 08:39 PM
Another update. Les (thx138) came down and gave me a hand at parting the 91 Shadow out. I'm going to go through the motor I suspect, I'll pull the head and check the bearings first. I changed the oil in the motor a month or so back, before I drove it for a week to test oil pressure. Drained it a week ago and it was already black (from a few days driving?). Drained the oil out of the drain pan and the bottom of the pan had a nice glitter to it in the sunlight. Hmmmm.

All that is left, getting hauled off tomorrow
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/mwr132/IMG_1521.jpg

Motor, trans, and springs are spoken for. I have removed the wiring harness/sbec, 11 in front and vented rear disk brakes, and the srt-4 intercooler. I'll post a for sale thread with those at some point.

It had this clutch on it. It was on/off like a light switch
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/mwr132/IMG_1524.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/mwr132/IMG_1523.jpg

With an interesting wear pattern. There was a matching pattern on the flywheel. Any idea what that is about? I'm not using the clutch as the Hor has an auto.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/mwr132/IMG_1522.jpg

Martin
89 Horizon

audiomaninc
05-24-2010, 09:09 PM
looks like the transmission has some input shaft play and it's wobbling the clutch a little during engagement.

Turbulence
05-26-2010, 12:52 AM
Found the previous owner's cardomain page

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2114659

Engine build is on page two. He blew the super 60 so the motor came with a garret.

blk86trbo
05-27-2010, 09:20 AM
Hmmm...I'm gonna take a stab and guess those ground effects are kinda hard to come by. Oughta try to keep them if ya got some storage space :)

Otherwise it seems like you made a good score with the parts car, and I'm really digging your Omni :thumb:

Turbulence
08-07-2010, 11:59 AM
Took the Horizon to the track again last night. Warm and busy. No changes from last time. Still the g headed n/a block with a t2 turbo, and a 944 intercooler. Managed to eek out a 14.01 @ 96 on 14 lbs of boost with a 2.01 sixty. 13's are just a better launch away. Was running half a tank of 94 octain with a gallon or so of C16.

I was curious to see how the Chinese Honda rad would do in the heat. It did just fine. The intercooler blocks the bottom 5 inches but the rest is open.

Rebuilding a motor with the ross pistons and arp hardware for next season.

Martin
89 Horizon n/a bottom end, G head, 944 intercooler
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/mwr132/DSCN0498.jpg

ShadowFromHell
08-07-2010, 01:50 PM
What style is this Honda radiator? I have one in the shop, but have been afraid to use it. I don't know If it would keep a iron block 2.2 cool. Does it keep it cool all the time? Even on the freeway? I'd love to use one because it is so narrow and much lighter then a stock unit, but I hate fighting overheating. What fan are you using? So can you make a pass and the temp will not climb at all?

Turbulence
08-07-2010, 02:11 PM
This one pretty much.
http://cgi.ebay.ca/93-94-95-96-97-Honda-Del-Sol-Manual-Aluminum-Radiator-/140436531565?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20b2ab696d

I used pvc sheeting cut and bent to fill in any openings. The fan is a low profile generic that fits the back of the rad. I have it wired to the rear wiper switch so I can run it constant when racing. I didn't notice the temp increasing substantially after a hard run, it hits the half way mark on the stock guage and stays there. Certainly higher than with the stock rad, which would peak half way up the guage and then drop down to a quarter. On the highway it stays at about one third on the the guage. Granted this is in an L body, other heavier TDs might have more issues. And I don't drive it that much. If it was a DD I likely would have gone in another direction

I know that Simon installed one in a customers L body and it ran too hot, but I suspect it was covered more by the intercooler. I'll try to remember to take pics of it the next time I have the grill off.



What style is this Honda radiator? I have one in the shop, but have been afraid to use it. I don't know If it would keep a iron block 2.2 cool. Does it keep it cool all the time? Even on the freeway? I'd love to use one because it is so narrow and much lighter then a stock unit, but I hate fighting overheating. What fan are you using? So can you make a pass and the temp will not climb at all?

Vigo
08-07-2010, 04:38 PM
whats involved in doing that

Never saw an answer to this (using EGR pipe off your tbi motor to make oil return for turbo conversion) so here goes.

Basically whats involved is taking the tbi EGR pipe, cleaning it out, cutting off the end that has the wrong bend on it, and then mocking it up and welding it to the pan. Mocking it up is important because if you dont have an assembled car to kind of hold it up against you'll probably end up with something that interferes with the inner CV joint of the passenger axle. You may have to bend the pipe a little more to get it to clear. Once you know where you want to put it you just drill a hole in the pan in that spot and weld the EGR pipe to the oustide.

Ive got this basic contraption on my minivan which is a turbo'd tbi motor. It hasn't given me any problems.

Turbulence
05-16-2011, 07:45 PM
The hor ran a best last September of 13.749 @ 96 on 14 lbs of boost. Haven't had time to get to the track yet this year (work) but installed the old school 5th and 6th injectors on pressure switchs last weekend. Got boost up to 15 lbs before it developed rod knock. Grrrr. I wanted to see how far the n/a pistons would go before pulling the motor and putting in the new motor. I didn't check the bearings when I installed the motor two years ago. I guess I could replace bearings and go again.

Vigo
05-17-2011, 01:19 PM
Hmm. Well, i personally would want you to slap bearings in it and go again because i want to see the tbi pistons boosted until they break, and as far as i know noone has run more than 14 psi (me, simon, who else?) and talked about it.

So i say patch job and return to racing!!

contraption22
05-17-2011, 02:14 PM
Can you tell us more about the Honda radiator? Source? Part no?

Turbulence
05-17-2011, 05:20 PM
Hmm. Well, i personally would want you to slap bearings in it and go again because i want to see the tbi pistons boosted until they break, and as far as i know noone has run more than 14 psi (me, simon, who else?) and talked about it.

So i say patch job and return to racing!!

I'll drop the pan and take a look as soon as I have the time.


Can you tell us more about the Honda radiator? Source? Part no?

Just an ebay chinese rad Like this one: http://cgi.ebay.ca/CIVIC-96-00-2-ROW-DUAL-CORE-ALUMINUM-RADIATOR-EK-MANUAL-/320697665039?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4aab12060f.

It has worked ok so far, I notice the temp guage gets hotter than it did with the single core stocker, but I have yet to drive it a long way on a hot day. My suspicion is that it's really not enough rad for a car driven often in hot weather.

Martin

contraption22
05-18-2011, 09:16 AM
Just an ebay chinese rad Like this one: http://cgi.ebay.ca/CIVIC-96-00-2-ROW-DUAL-CORE-ALUMINUM-RADIATOR-EK-MANUAL-/320697665039?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4aab12060f.

It has worked ok so far, I notice the temp guage gets hotter than it did with the single core stocker, but I have yet to drive it a long way on a hot day. My suspicion is that it's really not enough rad for a car driven often in hot weather.

Martin

Thanks for the info!

Turbulence
07-01-2011, 11:52 AM
Finally had the time to drop the pan. Found this on number 4:
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/mwr132/DSCF1878.jpg

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/mwr132/DSCF1881.jpg

So that's the end of the tbi pistons and rods with a G head experiment. I really wanted to push it farther. To be done in by a bearing is a dissappointment. The upper half of the bearing was a twisted mess by the time I got it off. Ross pistoned 2.5 block will be assembled and installed over the coming weeks.

Vigo
07-01-2011, 02:00 PM
Damn! I was afraid something might kill the tbi project before its time!

Sad to hear. Good luck with the next motor. :)

Turbulence
08-31-2011, 07:05 PM
OK on with the new motor. Had the bottom end cleaned, checked and assembled with the Ross 40 over pistons. Machine shop decked the block 6 thou. They also decked the head 5 thou. DDG says that 2-3 thou off the head is 2 degrees of retarded cam timing. I'm not sure what my next move is.

How much compression have I added?
Which direction do I go next, offset cam keys or an adjustable cam gear, or the thick cometic head gasket from FWD performance?

Maybe I have a lovely expensive paper weight for my office :mad:

Martin
89 Horizon

Vigo
09-01-2011, 12:39 AM
Right now i am wishing i knew the exact diameter of a cam gear so i could double check that rule you mentioned.. But i actually dont have any 8v's parked here right now.. :(

I personally would not be too concerned about the compression change. I would get an adjustable cam gear and spend time learning how to set up the cam (cant say i know either) rather than spend time trying to figure out your compression ratio. my .02.

As for tbi pistons, i am going to try and max out the mitsu on my caravan with the tbi pistons and see what happens. At best all i can say is i pushed 220hp of hot air through the motor.. but as of right now i dont know that anyone has even done that, so it's a start. :)

Turbulence
09-01-2011, 01:18 AM
I looked at the DDG again and sent Gary a pm asking for some clarification. In the intake section of the turbo database he says "Speaking of milling, .20-.30 milled off your head is equal to 2 degrees of retarded cam timing. Get offset cam keys to set it back (unless you want your cam timing retarded of course)". On my first read (earlier today) I read 2 - 3 thou which got me worked up and resulted in the post. On second read through it could mean 20 - 30 thou or 200 -300 thou.

Once more the extent of my automotive knowledge gets me to a place where I question what the hell I'm doing.:o
Martin
89 Horizon


As for the turbo TBI, keep the charge air cool, give it enough fuel and I bet you'll max out the mitsu turbo

Vigo
09-01-2011, 02:09 PM
I figured those numbers were off, thats why i wanted to do the math myself. But i believe the NEW numbers so no need now. :)

Turbulence
04-09-2012, 09:50 PM
It"s Alive!!!!!!! again. This time with the 40 over Ross pistons, ARP hardware and so on. The position of the distributer says to me that something is off. Timing belt off a tooth or two??

Martin

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/mwr132/IMG_0165_1_1.jpg

Vigo
04-09-2012, 11:02 PM
you can get the intermediate shaft gear off by several teeth, and as long as you can get your base timing set correctly by turning the distributor, it doesnt hurt a damn thing. Honestly, i dont even bother to try lining up the int. shaft with anything. I just set the timing window to 0, the distributor slot roughly parallel with the block, and focus on getting the cam gear right. I dont look at the crank or int shaft timing marks at all, ever.