Auto oil pump removal?

[RoadWarrior222]

Hi guys,

Being apparently a complete masochist, I'm still trying to struggle on with finding out what's wrong with my tranny with the FSM. Tranny is out, wanna get into the oil pump to see what it looks like.

some history in these other threads if you really need to know...
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29436&highlight=pump&page=2
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41591

Potentially dumb questions follow...

So, FSM I've got goes into picture book mode, first tells me how to take the VB out, very nice, but is there an earthly reason why I need the VB out before I pull the oil pump???

Next it tells me to how to check input shaft endplay, and says to tighten the kickdown band and text states "Remove Number 6 thrust washer from sun gear driving shell" WTF??? As far as I can see I'm not even getting near any gears yet. What does the tightening the kickdown band screw do, stop stuff falling out when you pull the pump? Fill a blank space in the manual?

Next, ah, stuff I can understand, remove 7 bolts, and it looks like the special tool just engages threads in the approx 1 o'clock and and 7 o'clock position holes to give something to grab onto to pull the pump assembly off. So anyone know what thread those will be? Well if no-one does, I hope it's metric because that's what I'm gonna try...

Okay so presuming it came out, I can take it apart from the backside, and I've got clearance specs, this section is misleadingly named "Oil pump recondition" because it shows you how it comes apart annnnnnd.... that's it, no reconditioning, just throw the damn thing out I guess.... no indication of whether it's the housing or gears that are the wear parts, or whether both need replacing if out of spec. :banghead:

Which is a'ight 'coz it's not like I'm finding anyone with pumps, parts or housings for sale online anyway, so might end up with a wreckers yard tranny.

An exercise in futility it might be, but I really, really want to know where the failure/problem was before I replace anything, even if I "fix" by replacing the whole thing.

thanks for any insight,

RW222

[turbovanman²]

NO, the pan doesn't need to come off at all.

Remove all the bolts, now look at the pump, 2 holes have threads on the pump side, 12mm I believe, I then find 2 bolts and make the first 3/4 in pointy or remove the threads. I find a couple of roll pins and put into the holes then use the bolts to push on the roll pins to pull the pump out. Keep the band tightened.

Once the pump is free, juggle it and it comes straight out, then you can rest it on the stator and undo the 13mm bolts to inspect the gears, if signs of scoring, throw away. Also inspect the bushing.

As for checking endplay, before I take it apart, move the input shaft in and out, if its out of spec, you remove the pump, then loosen the band, grab the input shaft and pull out the clutch pack assembly's, then you will see a bushing with a d shaped center on the output shaft, that's how the freeplay is adjusted. I've never seen it where you need to find or use a special washer, all I've ever used is the stockers and if you put it back together and you have no freeplay, you haven't got some clutc's engaged, so rotate the input shaft with a small pair of vice grips while tightening the pump down, if it starts to get stiff, you've got it wrong and STOP.

[RoadWarrior222]

Awesome thanks!

Just wondering if any of the rattling and knocking I had could have been caused by this issue...
http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:9TpXHqPW7W4J:www.pdqparts.com/content/pdf/TBA0702-1.pdf+A413+oil+pump&hl=en&gl=ca

Combined with endplay getting larger.... i.e. when whoever was last in the tranny messed with it, they put it back together with the 88 TC and a later pump, but it just cleared, then it got more endplay with wear and started hitting???? But I haven't really seen signs of that. TC looks cherry so far...

[RoadWarrior222]

BTW I've got instructions for changing the oil pump seal with a special tool if I don't take the pump out, but if I wanna change it when the pump is disassembled, there's nothing... does it just slip in then? It's tight and dry right now, not a sign that anything ever got past it, just wondering about whether it needs changing if I disassemble it (And the pump checks out)

[turbovanman²]

If its low mileage, not leaking, pump bushing is ok, seal looks good, I leave them alone.

[RoadWarrior222]

Ho hum, oil pump is looking pretty good actually... gotta find my good feeler gauge but I can't get a fingernail in (Have them calibrated to 20 thou :D )

End play on the shaft however is BAD 2-3mm...

What I'm seeing is

wear where the back of the oil pump contacted the clutch drum... :confused:
very thin kickdown band, it's like cereal box cardboard thin..
Pulled the front clutch pack, and the clutches look not too completely worn, but there's only 4 of them... thought V6 transmissions were meant to have more.
The washer between that and the front clutch looks screwed...
Dunno the thickness of that bakelite washer spacer between oil pump and drum but I guess it's worn too if the oil pump was rubbing.

Overall kind of surprised, I'm not seeing chunks and major carnage yet. Just a few fine shavings.

I guess I'm halfassed rebuilding this thing then, piece by piece, gotta figure exactly what things are called....

Looks like it had a new TC and oil pump and new rear band, which has quite a bit of meat on, but they left everything else...


What comes in a rebuild kit? Which names are a'ight? I doubt I'll have the luxury of much of a choice for what I can get hold of in a reasonable time frame, so really just want to know the "avoid like the plague" ones, rather than what's the best of the best.

Back to squinting at diagrams... wish there was a full exploded view somewhere with everything labelled...

[RoadWarrior222]

Ohhhh. Any way I can tell whether the TC clutch is fugged up or not? Apart from funny knocking and rattling the first symptom shortly before failure was it seemed like the TC lockup not going in, then it started dropping out of 3, and wouldn't stay in 2, guess it was trying to early upshift but there was nothing there.

[RoadWarrior222]

Found a good page...
http://www.turbovan.net/Trans.html

looking for a local supplier for a Transtar kit, this is the only kit supplier name I can find so far...

[RoadWarrior222]

Did I mean the front band or the kickdown band, I don't know, sometimes they look like the same thing in these pics :confused:

But anyway, seems to be the thrust washers that are more worn out than a Subic tart when the fleet's in.