Omni in Cleveland area with dsm electronics

[Omniboy]

Who has the turbo omni that would have been running at the Cleveland drag strip with dsm electronics? One of my friends said something about someone seeing one running out there. I would like to know how much of a pain is the --- it was. I would love to do that swap because there has been a lot of really good hacks out lately to basically have a stand alone capabilities with the stock ecu with free software on you laptop. There is also a speed density map out there now too.

[Keito]

Who has the turbo omni that would have been running at the Cleveland drag strip with dsm electronics? One of my friends said something about someone seeing one running out there. I would like to know how much of a pain is the --- it was. I would love to do that swap because there has been a lot of really good hacks out lately to basically have a stand alone capabilities with the stock ecu with free software on you laptop. There is also a speed density map out there now too.

Uh oh, word is out.
I'll let the owner chime in.
He told me it was not that hard to convert.
Had to add the mass air meter too.

[Mario]

My guess is Saw_Wave_Analog ?

[BadAssPerformance]

Why would anyone want to switch a turbo car from MAP to MAF? :confused2:

[SpoolinGLH]

I always thought mass air flow was good to?.... Look at the 3.8L Supercharged Gtp's...

[Mario]

Most people that have cars with MAF sensors on them and are making big power, have bypassed them.

[SpoolinGLH]

K..... Whats the reason?

[Mario]

Depending upon which MAF sensor you are using, they are only good to a certain power level. They can also be a restriction in the intake tract. They can also break.

[jaysshelby]

seen the car when he was working on it last summer. It is cool as hell and I'm thinking of doing it to my Page, as there is so much more ability to tune and such. It will be running at the Chrysler World Finals at Norwalk Raceway on Sept. 18th-20th. if anyone wants to see it in action.

[BadAssPerformance]

MAF is ok for low boost, but has issues with more... we're working on a TT '91 Mustang and figuring out the MAF issues now.

More ability to tune? Maybe when you buy DSM Link? By the time you re-wire the car for the DSM electronics and buy DSM Link, why not just buy Megasquirt or another aftermarket system?

Sounds like a waste to me, but I'm not a fan of anthing DSM... I'll give credit for doing something different tho, and would like to see it :thumb:

[Omniboy]

MAF is ok for low boost, but has issues with more... we're working on a TT '91 Mustang and figuring out the MAF issues now.

More ability to tune? Maybe when you buy DSM Link? By the time you re-wire the car for the DSM electronics and buy DSM Link, why not just buy Megasquirt or another aftermarket system?

Sounds like a waste to me, but I'm not a fan of anthing DSM... I'll give credit for doing something different tho, and would like to see it



I would love to do that swap because there has been a lot of really good hacks out lately to basically have a stand alone capabilities with the stock ecu with free software on you laptop. There is also a speed density map out there now too.

I wouldn't swap it just to swap it. I want it because of what you can do with the platform with free software. If you use a evo computer you can do speed density as well by running a different map. and I have a friend with a high 9 second evo that knows that software quite well if I had any tunning questions.

[jamesmonty]

I wouldn't swap it just to swap it. I want it because of what you can do with the platform with free software. If you use a evo computer you can do speed density as well by running a different map. and I have a friend with a high 9 second evo that knows that software quite well if I had any tunning questions.

Have you seen all the free tunes available for our electronics?

[8valveprick]

MAF is ok for low boost, but has issues with more... we're working on a TT '91 Mustang and figuring out the MAF issues now.

More ability to tune? Maybe when you buy DSM Link? By the time you re-wire the car for the DSM electronics and buy DSM Link, why not just buy Megasquirt or another aftermarket system?

Sounds like a waste to me, but I'm not a fan of anthing DSM... I'll give credit for doing something different tho, and would like to see it :thumb:
Exactly why I don't bother posting anything about my cars on turbododge any more. "It's DSM It's Junk, you should've done it this way blah blah blah". As long as people are open minded and realize that Other car manufacturers do some things better, I have no problem sharing what I did.

My Reasons
-I am familiar with DSM wiring.
-Harness and computer is FREE for me from a parts car I had for the motor and trans.
-Stock 2g MAF is good to 450whp, some have made more whp.
-Can use GM MAF inline w/ a cheap translator box, which yes, is technically a restiction, but MUCH less than a throttle body. -so who cares?
-TMO datalogging software is FREE and Simple to use.
-SAFC is also simple to use and cheap, Used about $150
-If I want full stand alone, DSM link is only about $350 away used. I think it's $500ish new.

I am intimidated by wiring but it was simple compared to Megasquirt in MY opinion. All that has to be used to run the motor (on the DSM side) is cam angle sensor, MAF, coolant temp, throttle body, injectors, coil pack. these all plug right into the harness. I made a simple adapter plate for the cam angle and had to drill and tap a hole for the temp sensor. Since I made my own Intake mani anyway, I just used a DSM throttle body. You can pretty much use any TB since they send out the same voltage reference, whatever that means (like I said electronics are not my bag). I also ran the fuel pump via the DSM relay. Just ran a wire from the output back into the stock Omni harness at the bulkhead.
For the starter and charging systems, along with headlights, wiper motor, turn signals etc. I used an 84 L body carbureted car harness. It plugs right in. Best advice is to grab a handful of wires going to the 84 computer and hack it ALL off then trace those cut wires back to their sources and get rid of 'em. I used the stock sterter relay and wired in a relay for the fan, that's it.
I'm sure I'm leaving stuff out, feel free to ask.

And just cuz I'm a prick, world's FASTEST 4cyl =DSM -Brent Rau, World's fastest AWD =DSM -John Shepard

[8valveprick]

BTW, On pump gas with a conservative tune it made 412hp and 391ftlbs.

[Mario]

Nice work. Any pics? What's your setup? What kind of dyno?

[8valveprick]

Have you seen all the free tunes available for our electronics?
No, fill me in.

I'm trying something new. trying to use other technology that has worked better for me in the past than the 80's Dodge stuff has. Plus I want to be able to tune my car not use a tune that works for someone else who has a similar setup. Plus, as mentioned before, I can datalog and record my runs and view them instantly on a graph which also gives numeric readings. e.g. if I see a bump on the graph for the knock sensor I can move the cursor over it and see exactly how many counts of knock. then I can go right down the line and see my throttle position, rpm's, coolant temp, injector pulsewidth, O2 readings and MAF airflow.



As far as my set up goes
2.2 forged crank
eagle H beams
custom Wiseco's (BTW I have 2 more sets f/s)
bone stock 2.0 95 neon head
880 injectors
T-61 Turbonetics
Shearfabrications ex mani
home made intake
tial 42mm (48, 42, whatever size they are I forget)
Ebay BOV
6 puck w/ dual diaphram in a 568(hate it w/ dual diaphram)
GM MAF

I'll pic message pics from my phone if someone wants to put them up. I'm computer lazy. pm me a number

[Mario]

Ah, I thought you still had an 8v head on there.

[moparfwdsleeper]

I want to see this! If you have pics, please brag!!!

[8valveprick]

Ah, I thought you still had an 8v head on there.
Sorry, I wish it was that easy to make 400+ on pump on an 8 valve




Shearerfabrications header
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r300/8valveprick/OMNIHEADER2.jpg
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r300/8valveprick/OMNIHEADER1.jpg
still in mock up in this photo
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r300/8valveprick/OMNIENGINE3.jpg

I have good pics on my phone. if someone wants to put them up pm me your cell or e-mail and I can send 'em

[unluckyty]

Nice to see your still at it Mike. Which "Cleveland" track will be it's first outing, would like to see it run.

When your ran your 8 valve, If I remember you were in the 11's

Greg

[Keito]

Nice to see your still at it Mike. Which "Cleveland" track will be it's first outing, would like to see it run.

When your ran your 8 valve, If I remember you were in the low 11's, did you hit 10's ?

Greg

Too late.

[omni_840]

Cool! Definately interested in seeing some more pics :nod:

[Omniboy]

Sweet. I think this is the route I'm gonna go. I just never liked what a pain in the --- the d cal ---- is and how limited it is.

[Omniboy]

oh for ---- sakes I can't say ----.

[unluckyty]

Too late.

What did it run?:D

[Mario]

Nice job being innovative.


Sorry, I wish it was that easy to make 400+ on pump on an 8 valve


It's been done. ;)

[risen]

Exactly why I don't bother posting anything about my cars on turbododge any more. "It's DSM It's Junk, you should've done it this way blah blah blah". As long as people are open minded and realize that Other car manufacturers do some things better, I have no problem sharing what I did.

My Reasons
-I am familiar with DSM wiring.
-Harness and computer is FREE for me from a parts car I had for the motor and trans.
-Stock 2g MAF is good to 450whp, some have made more whp.
-Can use GM MAF inline w/ a cheap translator box, which yes, is technically a restiction, but MUCH less than a throttle body. -so who cares?
-TMO datalogging software is FREE and Simple to use.
-SAFC is also simple to use and cheap, Used about $150
-If I want full stand alone, DSM link is only about $350 away used. I think it's $500ish new.

I am intimidated by wiring but it was simple compared to Megasquirt in MY opinion. All that has to be used to run the motor (on the DSM side) is cam angle sensor, MAF, coolant temp, throttle body, injectors, coil pack. these all plug right into the harness. I made a simple adapter plate for the cam angle and had to drill and tap a hole for the temp sensor. Since I made my own Intake mani anyway, I just used a DSM throttle body. You can pretty much use any TB since they send out the same voltage reference, whatever that means (like I said electronics are not my bag). I also ran the fuel pump via the DSM relay. Just ran a wire from the output back into the stock Omni harness at the bulkhead.
For the starter and charging systems, along with headlights, wiper motor, turn signals etc. I used an 84 L body carbureted car harness. It plugs right in. Best advice is to grab a handful of wires going to the 84 computer and hack it ALL off then trace those cut wires back to their sources and get rid of 'em. I used the stock sterter relay and wired in a relay for the fan, that's it.
I'm sure I'm leaving stuff out, feel free to ask.

And just cuz I'm a prick, world's FASTEST 4cyl =DSM -Brent Rau, World's fastest AWD =DSM -John Shepard

It's one hell of an accomplishment any time you can transplant one engine management system onto another car :thumb: (this coming from a megasquirt owner :) ) . Although I suppose I would fall into the 'just cause I can' camp with something like this, forget having to explain to anyone how I spent my spare time.

I'm curious as to what you're doing with injectors and knock.

I assume you're using a safc or some such to tune it in?

I'd also like to see how you have the cam sensor mounted, so I'd love to see some pics if you've got them :).

[8valveprick]

The knock sensor is mounted on the back of the block where one of the bolts for the power steering pump bracket was. Just had to retap the hole. This is where it is on a 4g63 so i figured I'd keep it there. The knock was the only thing I was really concerned about. I wasn't sure if the sensor was tuned for the the harmonics of a 4g or whatever. Turns out it works fine. As soon as it detected knock the computer retarded timing. I backed off the base timing and it went away. I was going to ground out the sensor and tune with the wideband only but glad I stuck with it.

Hey Unluckyty, I'm going to try to make it to Norwalk next Wed. I took it to 42 tues. Couldn't get it to hook. I'm going to try a homemade boost limiter for first and maybe 2nd gear if it still won't hook at Norwalk.

[8valveprick]

Sweet. I think this is the route I'm gonna go. I just never liked what a pain in the --- the d cal ---- is and how limited it is.
Are you using 8 or 16 v head?
I'm pretty sure it will work w/ 8 valve too.
biggest issue is cam angle sensor. Just need a plate to bolt to side of head. A machinist will have to bore a hole for the sensor's O ring size. I just used a cut off wheel to put a slot in the end of the cam. I'd have to look at an 8 valve head again to be sure though. Also, if I remember correctly the throttle body with the one piece manifold might be in the way. I would chop off the neck and weld a plate to the end of the manifold and just redrill and tap it for a DSM TB. That way you can just plug it in.

[turbovanman²]

To have a factory standalone with our cars, you buy one of these-

http://www.moates.net/product_info.php?products_id=169

You socket the SMEC/SBEC, run the cable from the computer to the Ostrich, run a printer cable inside the car, hook up to a laptop, download DCal and go to this link, all free, have fun tuning for free.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/vbarticles.php?do=article&articleid=109

Either way, what you've done is cool, :thumb:

[OmniLuvr]

i couldnt figure out how you made more hp than torque at first, then you said 16valve and it made a lot more sense, using dsm electronics on a 16v is a good idea too. does it have good driveability? and how hard was it running your turbo oil drainback with the turbo over the tranny?

awsome job bro, i love to see diff ideas actually being put to use!

[Omniboy]

t3 16 valve for now but I've been watching for a good deal on a srt pullout.


Are you using 8 or 16 v head?
I'm pretty sure it will work w/ 8 valve too.
biggest issue is cam angle sensor. Just need a plate to bolt to side of head. A machinist will have to bore a hole for the sensor's O ring size. I just used a cut off wheel to put a slot in the end of the cam. I'd have to look at an 8 valve head again to be sure though. Also, if I remember correctly the throttle body with the one piece manifold might be in the way. I would chop off the neck and weld a plate to the end of the manifold and just redrill and tap it for a DSM TB. That way you can just plug it in.

[unluckyty]

Hey Unluckyty, I'm going to try to make it to Norwalk next Wed. I took it to 42 tues. Couldn't get it to hook. I'm going to try a homemade boost limiter for first and maybe 2nd gear if it still won't hook at Norwalk.

I almost went to 42 on tues, but I stayed home and worked on the patio install instead. Would have been a nice surprise to see the Omni there. I have to work on wed, would be great if someone could get a video:thumb:

Good luck at Norwalk.

Greg

[risen]

Sweet. I think this is the route I'm gonna go. I just never liked what a pain in the --- the d cal ---- is and how limited it is.

Ok, I'm calling BS on the bashing of our factory ecus right now. Dcal is not limited, you can edit *every* facet of how the car runs using it and one of the relocatable source cals. Most car communitites would kill for the level of tunability we have. I don't see the dissasembly for the DSM ecus laying around anywhere (point me to it if you know where it is :) ). You need to pay 500 (or 350) to get what you can have for free with dcal. Heck, the last time I checked, the WRX guys don't even know which fuel map is used under different conditions, so they set them all to be the same.

I'm providing logging software for integration with a wideband output for free (with source, to boot). We've got things like 2 step and anti-lag built into the ecu. Ecu controlled boost to whatever your map sensor is good to, and soon the cals will be redaily scalable to any map you choose.

We have tutorial videos that show you how this stuff is laid out and how to edit it and set it up for your car. Again, for FREE.

I don't have anything against DSM (or any other) electronics, but I really don't see how people can badmouth what we already have.

[OmniLuvr]

im not badmouthing, just like to see some different stuff and ideas. if i wasnt a total dumba$$ when it comes to computers id try running d-cal. i can fab manifolds, cages, suspesion (not so much fwd stuff though) and i love wiring, have no problems splicing and swapping harness's, i just dont know how to write a tune to save my life. i thought about swapping in a complete dsm drivetrain, but didnt want to basterdise my omni in that fashion. is d-cal that easy?

[risen]

im not badmouthing, just like to see some different stuff and ideas. if i wasnt a total dumba$$ when it comes to computers id try running d-cal. i can fab manifolds, cages, suspesion (not so much fwd stuff though) and i love wiring, have no problems splicing and swapping harness's, i just dont know how to write a tune to save my life. i thought about swapping in a complete dsm drivetrain, but didnt want to basterdise my omni in that fashion. is d-cal that easy?

I'm all for people figuring out how to do cool poo like what's in this thread, but our ecus are really tunable. If you'd like to know more check out the video tutorials in this thread: tutorial thread (http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39826)

If you find something lacking in those tutorials please post in the thread and we'll make sure it gets addressed.

[BadAssPerformance]

Exactly why I don't bother posting anything about my cars on turbododge any more. "It's DSM It's Junk, you should've done it this way blah blah blah". As long as people are open minded and realize that Other car manufacturers do some things better, I have no problem sharing what I did.

You've got a good chance of getting open minded here :thumb:

...well unless you come across like "DSM rule, there is none higher" like this:


And just cuz I'm a prick, world's FASTEST 4cyl =DSM -Brent Rau, World's fastest AWD =DSM -John Shepard

If you've been around turbo mopars long enough, you know nobody is going to put that kind of money into one just to try to break a record, and nobody is going to sponsor one that much either, LOL!

So again, kudos for creativity, these cars are good for that... way ahead of their time, but with a small aftermarket for them, we gotta be creative :nod: So hows it run?

[8valveprick]

Good attitude badassperformance. I was just busting balls w/ the DSM stuff.
It actually runs flawlessly. If it it wasn't for the heavy clutch pedal I would deliver pizzas in it, no joke. I used to deliver in it all the time when it had the high 11's 8 valve in it. (along with my 11.01 Colt and 14.2 mini I used to have)
BTW. The car made more power than what I posted with a little 110 octane mixed in.


and Risen, I'm not bashing the dodge ecu's. I just thought it would be beneficial to run newer technology that I already understand and is SIMPLE to use. Am I bashing an 8 valve head if I say a 16 valve is better?

[risen]

and Risen, I'm not bashing the dodge ecu's. I just thought it would be beneficial to run newer technology that I already understand and is SIMPLE to use. Am I bashing an 8 valve head if I say a 16 valve is better?

I never thought what you said was bashing any TM ecu, sorry if you mistook that bit of steam I let off. It was only directed at the notion that our ecus are somehow limited, they're only limited by our imaginations and engenuity. It was really only directed at the post I quoted. As far as I'm concerned what you've done is cool as hell. More power to you :thumb: !

Now is a dsm ecu better hardware-wise than a lm or smec, most likely (it's probably not better than a sbec or sbecii). Which one has better tunability is a discussion that could go on for days. I'd say that a lm (or smec) is definitely cheaper to tune and have extra features added into, but perhaps I'm not as up to speed on what you get with a dsm ecu.

I seriously don't want this to turn into a flamewar, and definitely don't want to stop others from attempt something like this ( and posting about it). So I hope that clears things up.

And I still want pics :)

[t3rse]

I would have to argue that mass air is easier to tune than speed density.

[risen]

I would have to argue that mass air is easier to tune than speed density.

Absolutely agree, since you're not calculating airflow. it's provided to you by the sensor.

[turbovanman²]

im not badmouthing, just like to see some different stuff and ideas. if i wasnt a total dumba$$ when it comes to computers id try running d-cal. i can fab manifolds, cages, suspesion (not so much fwd stuff though) and i love wiring, have no problems splicing and swapping harness's, i just dont know how to write a tune to save my life. i thought about swapping in a complete dsm drivetrain, but didnt want to basterdise my omni in that fashion. is d-cal that easy?

You don't need to write anything, its all done for you, some of us can even make you a cal then you can tweak it as needed. I KNOW what everything does, just didn't know how to work Dcal or the Ostrich, so with Aries-Turbo's and Shelgames help, I am now tuning my van and having a blast-sometimes, doing it. I am also paying forward, I have helped the local TM'ers and one guy from Alberta last night, lol.

[bakes]

You don't need to write anything, its all done for you, some of us can even make you a cal then you can tweak it as needed. I KNOW what everything does, just didn't know how to work Dcal or the Ostrich, so with Aries-Turbo's and Shelgames help, I am now tuning my van and having a blast-sometimes, doing it. I am also paying forward, I have helped the local TM'ers and one guy from Alberta last night, lol.

+1 on the pay it forward !!!!:amen:

[Omniboy]

10 what

[turbovanman²]

10 what

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

[Keito]

secs;)