10 second 190,000 mile low boost 3.0 build [Archive]

Ondonti

07-31-2009, 05:50 AM

Found a 10:1 compression 1994 Diamante 3.0 in the junkyard. 190,000 miles but it looked like the last owner had actually worked on it, even removing valve covers etc. Not sure why the front head is so clean. Even the other head is very clean, and all the journals look virgin. The Bearings in the motor looked almost new. The only high mileage indication was that the piston oil rings were locked up and all the return holes were plugged with coked oil. Went through and cleaned it up. Bolted on my ported/cam'd heads because I found the top ringland is too high for me to feel comfortable running as much boost as I had planned on stock heads (30ish).

Actual compression will be more like 9.7:1 with the 51cc combustion chambers vs 46-47cc stock.

Main upgrade with this build is a 1000hp fuel system.
-Twin parallel GSL392 Walbro 255lph high pressure external pumps. Hotwired to 14v. Gravity fed.
-Using 2 stock 5/16" feed lines. One for each pump.
-Parallel fuel rails, 1 pump/line feeding each rail.
-single return line.
-Jaz 12 gallon 2" sump fuel cell (70-10ohm fuel level sender), twin -8an outlets. -6an breather. Added 3/8" barb for return line.

Enough fuel for 1000whp on gasoline or about 750whp on E70. Thats conservative. I have 2100cc's of methanol which can support another 150whp but my meth pump is still fubar'd right now.
So total fuel capacity is 1150whp on gas, 900whp on E70.
I might run E95 in the future which will drop those numbers quite a bit. But those numbers are conservative. If I need more fuel I can up the fuel pump voltage or change to twin Denso 044 pumps.
Honda guys are making 890whp on a 5/16" line on alcohol! Using a Walbro in tank and Denso 044 in series. I don't want to push that hard, and I will temporarily be running very high fuel pressures (my MSII is in the mail but I don't see it getting installed soon).

I figure this motor will make 450whp uncorrected on 15ish psi. With megasquirt, a lot more as I could take the cam gears back to stock and pick up a lot more on the top end with higher rev limiter.
These heads did 447whp uncorrected (at 4400 feet :) )on 20psi with only 7.0:1 compression and massive blowbye so 9.7:1 and better ring seal should have no problems keeping up, especially on E70 fuel.

I think its going to make some freakin insane hp and be very peppy with the higher compression. With Megasquirt and another 1500+ rpms to rev and non advanced cam timing, it should be a beast even on low boost levels.
I am interested where this motor will start to spool the turbo and then get full boost. Maybe the powerband will widen enough to prevent me from dropping out of the powerband on shifts with these heads on stock rev limiter.

If I don't pop this motor, then i will probably donate the shortblock to my daily driver and think about buying some forged flat top turbo friendly pistons. My 7.0:1 Venolias were beasts, withstanding 15-17:1 leanouts in the 400+whp area.
I was going to built a 24v 3.8L Mivec with compound turbo setup but I might stick with this since I cant really afford that route right now. My fuel system is sorta overdone in case I build the 3.8L, then I will be just a few fuel mods away from being able to support a 1400+whp compound turbo setup.

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_4570.jpg
Some top rings were gapped as small as .012"!!!
Now top are set to .024" or more depending on cylinder location and 2nd ring is .030-.032 depending on location.
For some reason the stock 2nd rings were gapped larger then the top rings which is NOT normal for motors built 15+ years ago. Not sure if its because of the high compression pistons or what. Only recently have people started gapping 2nd rings larger in almost all applications.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_4572.jpg
Cleaned out clogged oil return holes and then drilled them out larger.
Piston on the right is a broken 8.9:1 1992+ 3.0 piston that has a lower top ring location then the 10:1 piston.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_4573.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_4574.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_4575.jpg
.014" copper wire surrounding each combustion chamber. Superglue ftw. Copper spray ftw.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_4577.jpg
Stock Mitsubishi Diamante knock sensor. Not sure how to take advantage of it. Knock sense is a possibility but not sure.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_4578.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_4579.jpg
[
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_4583.jpg
1000+whp worth of fuel :)
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_4584.jpg

"Top Fuel" Bender

07-31-2009, 05:58 AM

looks good,
are those rubber o-ringed an fittings on the fuel pump?
I think you'll need ones with copper washers, the walbro isn't relieved for the o-ring at least on mine it wasn't , plus won't the E-85 like the the copper better then the rubber anyways?

Ondonti

07-31-2009, 06:17 AM

yeah, those are just rubber. i have some fancy ones for all types of fuel but they are -6an. They sorta work but are a bit too big The low pressure side doesn't worry me at all either if o rings are not perfect.
If I could find some in about -5an size that would be nice.

For now I am not worried. I might need to upgrade that in the future. I don't like the m10x1.0 thread on the Walbros. Its very small and very rarely used. Should have been -8an inlet and -6/-8 outlet on the walbro.
I had to scramble together the barb fittings from a local hose supply store because Summit doesn't have install kits. I won't buy fuel pumps from vendors after getting jerked around 2 years ago with "we'll get it to you eventually when our supplier feels like drop shipping it to you." And I am really not trusting of anyone who sells Walbros and doesn't keep them in stock because their supplier could be shipping chinese units and charging the vender the non chinese price. Forward motion sells them and keeps them in stock but wants way too much for an external pump.

I will be drilling out the m10 fittings to a slightly larger internal size cause they really make me unhappy with their size.

turbokid

07-31-2009, 08:50 AM

Wow nice build.
What do you have to gain with the larger oil return holes?

Ondonti

07-31-2009, 09:42 AM

Wow nice build.
What do you have to gain with the larger oil return holes?

hopefully at least not having them coke up with oil. I sorta think its the fault of the oil ring design though. I have 2 different styles in my piston collection. Hopefully oil wont sit around there long enough to coke up now.

Aries_Turbo

08-01-2009, 10:39 AM

Captain Chaos

08-01-2009, 01:04 PM

I liked your last "project", looking forward to seeing how this one runs.:nod:

Ondonti

08-01-2009, 04:44 PM

i need to get my knock box done but im too busy with outside stuff in the summer. this would be perfect for this. will that knock plate fit a 12v chrysler block?

looks like a fun build. you want me to make you a MS base map based on 89 3.0L timing with educated guess values for boost? all id need to know is the stock distributor advance setting.

Brian
My ms box is in the mail right now with some sort of tune. I would love a map but I won't use it yet. I am gonna try to run with the stock electronics just for the heck of it for now. I want to get some racing in before the season is over.

The knock plate will not fit because this block has special bosses cast in.....but you could probably just install it lower down into the valley and drill and tap your own holes. Its not gonna hurt anything doing that.
This is a 2 wire sensor so its not the same as chryslers.

MS has me excited to see what RPM I either encounter valve float or lifter collapse. I just found out that some of the old 2.6L vans came with solid lifters and those g54b motors (Starquest!!) use 3.0 roller rockers as upgrades and our lifters are the same.
Hoping I can find a valve upgrade or titanium retainer or both. I was unable to find valve springs before so I had to go with new stock ones. I still need some lash caps on my built heads so I will probably be down on power. On a stock cam I would probably be fine for a lot of RPM but my cam is a lot bigger then stock, and has more lift then the Crower 210 deg regrind people are using. That cam is near stock lift with 28 degrees more duration. Mine is 216 @ 0.50" with about .57" more lift.

Stock 3.0 cam is a pathetic 182 deg @ .050" and .393 lift. Thats why the 3.0 has so much to gain from a simple cam swap. The stock 4 cyl cams make the 3.0 cam look very very weak. And the 3.0 has a larger valve size! A stock head is still picking up lots of flow on the intake side all the way past .500" lift.

Ondonti

08-02-2009, 05:59 AM

Drilled out the -8an to m10 adapters to almost 1/4" Its pathetic how small they were before and even now its too small. I don't know how this pump rocks so hard when it uses such small fittings.

I drilled out the adapters on the outlet side too but then I realized that 1/8"npt fits into m10 threads so i ditched the adapter. Now I don't have to worry about an O ring on the high pressure side.

Pretty happy with how its turning out. Getting rid of that adapter made me happy too. I drilled out the 1/8 npt barb too because it had a weird step inside it.

Never done a fancy fuel system so its quite interesting to do this. Next I gotta wire it up. I already have a hotwire setup so i will just add the 1 into 2 fuse block towards the rear of the car and split power to the two pumps. I will have to replace the wire that leads back into the engine bay though because it has a stock 1991+ fuel pump connector soldered onto the 10 gauge wire so I will save that for my Daily driver. I got rid of ALL the small wires when i did my hotwire except the wires in the tank.

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_4593.jpg

I bought a foam rubber mat at the dollar store (sunflower pattern!!!) and cut it up to try to isolate vibrations from the pump. I know these pumps are loud.
I have a layer between upper bolt head and chassis, layer between chassis and bracket, layer between bracket and fender washer. Then wrapped the pumps. Not sure if it will make one bit of a difference :P

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_4594.jpg
Reclocked the mitsu oil dipstick tube so it would not making changing one of the spark plugs impossible.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_4588.jpg

Vigo

08-03-2009, 10:54 PM

w00t! Keep up with the updating, ALWAYS something to learn from your experiments!

Mario

08-10-2009, 12:13 PM

Nice fuel system install.

Ondonti

08-16-2009, 11:51 PM

The Junkyards new Junk Motor. 10:1 heads/cams - Car Videos on StreetFire (http://videos.streetfire.net/video/The-Junkyards-new-Junk_701799.htm)

These drop voltage to the fuel pump. Voltage rectifiers meant to change ac to dc current. The pumps are a lot quieter right now and have a lower pitch.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_4601.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_4602.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_4600.jpg
31+mph on the back half of the track. Just not putting the power down.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_4598.jpg

Big_P

08-17-2009, 01:00 AM

What's the benefit of lower voltage to the fuel pumps?

Ondonti

08-17-2009, 01:09 AM

Prevents me from overrunning my regulator. Ive already drilled out all the internal passages as far as possible. I don't need 1000+whp of fuel anyways :P

turbovanman²

08-17-2009, 02:09 AM

Nice work, :hail:

Did you run the 10 or 11?

I don't see much difference of the ring position between the 2 pistons.

Vid doesn't work. :(

Mario

08-17-2009, 02:18 AM

11.54

Ondonti

08-17-2009, 02:57 AM

You have to wait for it to encode (you have to wait because I don't have time to wait to post it :P ). I will be driving 1000 miles tomorrow back to Seattle so hopefully it starts working before I arrive :P
Might make some n/a passes in my Spirit at Pacific Raceways.

Aries_Turbo

08-17-2009, 10:09 PM

looks hilarious. sounds NASTY :)

Brian

blk86trbo

08-17-2009, 10:49 PM

That thing sounds great...a lot better than my 6 cylinder 5 speed Duster!

Vigo

08-18-2009, 11:42 AM

I think in the interests of clarity someone should make clear that the 11.5 was not on the 10:1 motor.

Not that it wont happen soon anyway :p

Ondonti

08-18-2009, 02:12 PM

I think in the interests of clarity someone should make clear that the 11.5 was not on the 10:1 motor.

Not that it wont happen soon anyway :p

I think in the interest of clarity, it should be pointed out that for some strange reason you are putting off having a van that sounds like that. :confused:
And you could do true duals on the van with some cheap ebay Gran Prix headers reflanged to 3.0 style :hail:

11.5 was on a quiet stock heads cams shortblock ecu paper headgasket 8.9:1 3.0 from a minivan.
BTW, anyone who ever thought the 1996+ caravans came with a 9.3:1 motor...I disagree. The piston dish looks exactly the same as the 8.9. WTF chrysler? :confused2:

Vigo

08-18-2009, 07:53 PM

what about compression height from the pin?

point taken fo sho, tho i will not start my 3.0 swap until after the GRM race in Oct.

I Think the duals is a great idea cuz ive been thinking about dual side exit in front of the rear wheels similar to the aries (single side exit) and those headers would accomodate that easily.

Vigo

09-29-2009, 12:11 AM

so modest, not even bringing up your dyno runs on stock 10:1 pistons. This car makes more power running on 5 of 6 cyl at under 20 psi than most of the 4 cyls do on 30 psi.

Aries_Turbo

09-29-2009, 03:58 PM

duh.... its a v6. of course its going to make power.

adam, you are a good dude and all, but i must crown you the king of nutswinging when it comes to brent. :)

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/nutswinger.gif

brian

turbovanman²

09-29-2009, 04:04 PM

Vigo

09-29-2009, 04:53 PM

holy crap did you go out and find that emoticon just for this purpose? ^Lol

Eh, i respect ambition and results. Lots of people here havent got one or the other, keeping in mind that doing what's been done and getting the same results doesnt take much ambition. Im not too proud of my GRM car at all, for that reason. likewise, lots of people have ambition and never get the results.

its a v6. of course its going to make power.

I think pushing this power level on stock junkyard high compression pistons is something cool. sure a nissan gt-r motor is a v6 that makes 500 hp on stock pistons.. but not with smaller bore pistons, not 10:1 pistons, and the shortblock those pistons come in doesn't cost $90. It might even be OVER 9000!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBtpyeLxVkI . You should be bashing those fanboys. lol. out of sight out of mind, though. T-m is free from those types of nutswingers :thumb:

turbovanman²

09-29-2009, 05:42 PM

Don't forgot, Brent can't keep it together, everytime he goes out, he nukes a piston or blows a gasket. Not a bash, an observation, :p

Aries_Turbo

09-29-2009, 08:16 PM

i totally respect what he's accomplished and im friends with you too. have been for years.

i just dont see the need for you to defend him or to boast about his accomplishments when:

1. you havent done the same (nor do i expect you to)....

2. his car isnt all that reliable....

3. there are plenty of 4 banger cars on here that are much better built and are either as fast as him or faster and more reliable.

i dont see you following brian slowe around and busting a nut in his eye with excitement when his car is EXPONENTIALLY faster than brents with less boost and worlds better in build quality and reliability and the fact that Slowe is a nice guy on here and doesnt act like a dickhead towards others.

or take DJ's car. similar speed and boost. he drove it from alberta to cincy and didnt blow up a piston, nuke a clutch, squirt coolant everywhere, crack a weld on something etc. he hammered it pretty good at SDAC too and only had one nut loosen up after driving a zillion miles on a hand built car? not bad. and he is a nice guy and not a douche.

warren stramer... runs 10's on a heavy 8v and has the most beautiful fabrication around. and a nice guy to boot.

see what im getting at?

why nutswing on a guy that has a piece together car that will be as reliable as something Dave threw together in highschool ;) and acts like a dicklick all the time? thats silly.

Brian

PS.... a buddy of mine used that nutswing icon on another board im on and i thought it was perfect for here. :) take it as a good natured ball busting.

PPS.... I used to love the 3.0L. but brent and his attitude ruined it for me.

Mario

09-29-2009, 08:38 PM

i dont see you following brian slowe around and busting a nut in his eye with excitement when his car is EXPONENTIALLY faster than brents with less boost and worlds better in build quality and reliability and the fact that Slowe is a nice guy on here and doesnt act like a dickhead towards others.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/nutswinger.gif

or take DJ's car. similar speed and boost. he drove it from alberta to cincy and didnt blow up a piston, nuke a clutch, squirt coolant everywhere, crack a weld on something etc. he hammered it pretty good at SDAC too and only had one nut loosen up after driving a zillion miles on a hand built car? not bad. and he is a nice guy and not a douche.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/nutswinger.gif

warren stramer... runs 10's on a heavy 8v and has the most beautiful fabrication around. and a nice guy to boot.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/nutswinger.gif

see what im getting at?

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/nutswinger.gif

Vigo

09-29-2009, 09:05 PM

:lol:

The next post better be a 3.0 blowing the wheels off in 4th..:mad:

Aries_Turbo

09-29-2009, 09:08 PM

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/nutswinger.gif

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/nutswinger.gif

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/nutswinger.gif

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/nutswinger.gif

ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

:) i get what i deserve!

Mario

09-29-2009, 09:10 PM

Lol, just had to. :) <3

turbovanman²

09-29-2009, 10:23 PM

Shadow

09-29-2009, 10:35 PM

So has this thing gone 10's yet, or has this become just another nutswinging thread? :confused2:

turbovanman²

09-30-2009, 02:41 AM

I just realized the thread title, 19+ psi isn't low boost, :p

Vigo

09-30-2009, 09:43 AM

its low compared to your 104mph boost setting. :p

2.216VTurbo

09-30-2009, 07:59 PM

Don't forgot, Brent can't keep it together, everytime he goes out, he nukes a piston or blows a gasket. Not a bash, an observation, :p

Hey, isn't that the Simon Brotherhood Club you're referencing:p? If I come home on a towtruck one more time this year, I'll be an honorary member myself:o

turbovanman²

10-01-2009, 06:15 PM

Hey, isn't that the Simon Brotherhood Club you're referencing:p? If I come home on a towtruck one more time this year, I'll be an honorary member myself:o

Hahahhaa, maybe a few years ago, haven't need a tow truck for 3 years now, :thumb:

Vigo

10-02-2009, 08:50 AM

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/Vigo327/DSC05363.jpg

Who needs a towtruck when you can tow a shadow with a slightly larger k-car. Im getting a lot of mileage out of that hitch install..

Ondonti

10-02-2009, 10:24 AM

19psi was just the boost level it ran on the street on our 2nd to last pass.
18psi on the dyno. I was trying to win the dyno contest without goign crazy, not race at the track. The car was tuned the night of the last races here so not much I could do for track racing.
BTW for Brian slowe nutswingers who can't get their bragging facts right, I ran my 11.9 on less boost then him ;) But I did it on a stock heads/cams/shortblock motor.

If unreliable = running 11.9 on 16psi and getting booted because the junkyard motor leads then sure. I could have run that motor for years with that weak setup. But leaning out on 22psi when my fuel pump can only handle 16 broke it. Street testing didnt get enough traction to show the lack of fuel in 4th gear. The proper answer would have been dyno time. Anyways I was working this summer and didn't work on my car.

But hey, there is a reason Brian didnt bring up all the failures that certain cars have had, especially the "best fabricated blah blah nutswing"
But why should I care.
I went 125mph on a stock cam/head/shortblock/NA ECU on a motor meant for NO boost. Did it at 4400 Feet.

Brian, money where your mouth is, send any 10 second TD up to 4400 feet elevation and lets do a freeway run. You know not a gosh darn one would be able to run a 10 up here on their best day except Dean Stillie.
Even Tony Palo in his 8.9 second Honda couldnt run faster then 9.3 up here this summer and was 10mph low on his traps. Ask him what he thinks of elevation!

I missed the last track day, thats the night the car got tuned because I had just finished the "overfueling" issue.
There are some billion HP Hondas and DSM's going to Vegas in November and they have invited me but who knows, I might be out of the country with "priorities."

I had an O ring made of .012" thick copper wire with no reciever groove start to blow out from detonation on a O.5 second 24psi pull. It wrecked 2 plugs but they still sorta worked, didnt take it apart because we were up all night doing other stuff, hit the dyno with no sleep and on the 4th actual pull (only recorded pull) the ring blew out completly. That was after a 500+++ pull that didnt record because i let off at 3000 rpms when fuel was bogging.

Gary D couldnt even get a 440hp 8 valve to hold together while people have been making near 500 on non common blocks with no problems.
The issue I can't give Gary D crap about is that he was figuring things out, not copying other peoples ideas/setups. Huge difference. His build threads are full of failures that he rectified and that is what I respect about those parts of his website. Its not a website full of a bunch of excuses blaming someone else.

And as the people on here who know me have watched, I am only a dick to people who are E bullies. Usually those people keep their mouths shut in real life and if they don't then I call them on their BS there. You won't find one post of me picking on someone who always keeps their posts "respectful." Not a single damn one. Thats why the people who dislike me tend to be the -------- of TM because they like to pick on people just to feel good about themselves and they don't like to stand up for their own behavior.

I may not even race next year, I don't know what the future holds, but with my current suspension strap fix that I have not tested yet, I think the car will be able to hold a low 1.6 60' and my driving has improved and I have been practicing more in my daily on shifts. That was the only reason difference between my car that ran for 2 years straight with nothing but a clutch problem because it was too weak. I don't see how that is builder error when it was supposed to hold what it didnt............and the 11 second car. Driving. The motor/hp issue is not really important --- HP only gets you down the track of you put it to the pavement. The motor was still running 500+hp on 91 octane kill mode when I took it apart and I kept it apart because of some 6 month old damage from a spark plug.

Also not much I can do about a design flaw in the head. Head studs don't work because we don't stretch headbolts, the head flexes between the bolts. People have tried even 120 ft/lb, had no stretch, and still flexed. I am trying to find cheap ways to solve a problem so other people can copy. There are other fixes I have already considered doing that I am avoiding because people will not want to try that. Whats wrong with that attitude?
Look how many 3.0 builds people are interested in? Its probably got nothing to do with how much they like me. There are hundreds of 8v -------- but I still want to go out and fix the T2 car sitting outside just to dig into it and see whats up, make it faster, etc. Just like i wish well for all my buddies of other car makes. Few people here honestly wish well for others, they all seem to worry about someone else going faster then them. I honestly thought Bansheenut was going to go faster then me on his stock head TIII head this year but thanks to a couple bad coupler clamps that didnt happen.
This is one reason why a lot of people here either keep things secret about their cars, or spread disinformation that misleads people into building slow cars and then wondering why the car is slow because they "followed directions"
Perfect example, the outright lie by Gary D that he shifts at 5000 rpms.

If thats the kinda crap you think advances the platform, go ahead and live in that world of yours.

I don't need to live and die by what my motors could do if I had the wick turned up from 20 to 40psi boost, and from 6200 rpms to 7-8k rpms. I don't have the driver mod to handle something like that so it would be silly.

The comment to Vigo about "him having done nothing" would go right back on Brian who said it. What have you done? And most of all, why does it matter what someone has done? I know a lot of people with fast cars who have no idea what they are doing, then people with slow cars who do, or who build the fast cars for other people but don't own a fast car themself.

I didnt even read this thread almost 2 months so i would say bragging is on the bottom of my list. Its a project that I have some excitement about butI don't need to compete with everyone else for hits on the project section. Help or ideas are a lot more useful then banter. Thats what I thought this stuff was for, learning experiences for those who read about projects.

simon, lets see you run a fast time an n/a headgasket. Bring it. You couldn't get fancy ones to hold down ;)
Me, i have just learned that cometic makes the worst MLS gaskets on the market but in unquestioning TD/TM land nobody has figured that out.

Every TD out there is reliable as long as you add in the fact that they keep almost all their failtures a secret. At least Gary D shared his failures though some people purposedly pretend those did not happen. Gary has more good then bad about him but he is no diety. He doesnt want to help you learn how to turn your own car even though he could show you and the whole Dcal thing could have been completely figured out 8 years ago so the program would be easy enough for almost anyone to use it. Instead he helps a few friends and then boxes away his secrets for 7 years while he takes a break. TD's would be a LOT faster these days, there would be 10 second TIII's, etc, if he had shared that information on HOW to tune, not giving away actual tunes for free.

Aries_Turbo

10-02-2009, 04:44 PM

i was wondering when you would respond to all my harassment. :)

the thing is that i dont really care how fast anyones cars go. i was just responding to your continual posts on how fast you have gone on how little boost and how shitty the 2.2/2.5's are. you say the last thing you want to do is brag but those statements are just that... bragging.

that combined with some of your cobblejobs/breakage of the past/present makes you a hypocrite and ripe for harassment.

plus when you lash out like a dumbass, you become the new e-bully.

plus, who gives you the right to be the TM vigilante??? ill deal with the e-bullies thank you. when you start acting like a douche to try to shut them up is when you get reprimanded and piss me off. now if you bring up FACTS calmly and post them without all the attitude that you normally spew, then its ok. you havent posted facts. youve made baseless accusations. if you see an e-bully, lemme know. ill smack them around.

why do you bring up Gary so much? are you pissed cause he didnt give away all the collaborative research???? why should he? he had products to produce to support his then-wife and child. I dont see you bitchhing at cindy for not giving her calibration information away. besides, he said if he had some errors and you had facts to back that up, let him know and he would change his info. he didnt say "call me out in public and call me a liar and keep bringing it up when i dont provoke it".

i also dont think he knew how to tune T-III SBEC's anyway other than some broad timing changes in the cal.

you definitely cant complain on my dealings with calibration stuff. i make videos on how to do this stuff and ive taught countless people what i know. though ive harassed you endlessly for being a dick to others on this board, ive offered to make you a megasquirt base timing table based off of the stock SMEC values for vacuum plus some educated guess values for boost. i told you about my knock box idea too cause i think it would be great for your car once i finish it.

as for my comments to vigo about "you havent done the same"..... you dont get to defend someones car performance until you have been there and struggled to create speed.

it would be like if james reeves went to the races and popped his motor and everyone was giving him crap and I suddenly became his advocate and made a bunch of excuses. that doesnt make sense. i dont have a 10 sec car nor went through the process of creating one nor did i have a hand in creating his car other than a teensy smidge of cal advice to warren. who would i be to defend his car. im not even in the same state.

now onto "what have you done". not a whole lot other than helping people with cals. i didnt create the goal for me of making a ridiculous car yet. thats on the plate for the future. i wanted a car that could run low 13's, high 12's and have it be a pretty reliable daily driver. i met my goal.

my harassment of you has very little to do with cars and almost everything to do with how you deal with others on the site. please quit being a dick. if you feel that im unfair and there are other people being worse than you, PM me.

brian

turbovanman²

10-02-2009, 05:16 PM

simon, lets see you run a fast time an n/a headgasket. Bring it. You couldn't get fancy ones to hold down ;)
Me, i have just learned that cometic makes the worst MLS gaskets on the market but in unquestioning TD/TM land nobody has figured that out.

I am running an N/A gasket, :p

now onto "what have you done". not a whole lot other than helping people with cals. i didnt create the goal for me of making a ridiculous car yet. thats on the plate for the future. i wanted a car that could run low 13's, high 12's and have it be a pretty reliable daily driver. i met my goal.

Yep, he took the time to TALK to me on the phone for literally hours to help mu understand cals, without him, I wouldn't have gone as fast this year and have the potential to go faster, but my own stupidity got in the way.

Vigo

10-03-2009, 10:53 AM

i was just responding to your continual posts on how fast you have gone on how little boost and how shitty the 2.2/2.5's are

In all fairness im making about half those posts... and id rather brag about his car than mine, even though im blowing some 8v peoples out of the water on stock parts at 3900 rpm. :p .. thats not enough to make me cool, though. Id have to trap 20mph faster on the same boost im already running.. which brent has. Hes gone 11s on the same boost with only 20% more displacement. BAM. or at least thats how it comes off to me.

But see im just a kindred spirit who doesnt like spending money. I see all these people buying forged pistons and stuff and im thinking brent could buy 3 500hp-capable longblocks for the same price as 4 forged pistons that 90% of people wont get close to 500 hp on.

So the things i like dont get everyone else riled up the same. I just give props where i see coolness. And i think people here are getting what they want since brent doesnt post here much, if at all. I just started a fight in his thread for no raisin! lol

Aries_Turbo

10-03-2009, 11:23 AM

Ondonti

10-04-2009, 06:34 AM

Have not fixed the headgasketet yet but the car just started using MSII on the first attempt. Clears out the WD-40 that was in the motor (keeping it from rusting when I had accidentally put coolant back in and it leaked into the cylinders) and then starts burbling and then roars to life.

One problem is the MSII doesnt seem to be super simple to set up for the zeitronix output. Its not a linear signal but we can change the zeitronix settings to change the narrowband wire to a linear wideband wire. Then we would just need the lower and upper points on the linear scale (only have the scale info for the non linear scale).

The other problem is that we have no tach in the car. Tried stealing input directly from the low data rate wire on the distributor. Not sure what else to try. DIYAutotune says "this is the advantage of a parallel install" but with the MSII controlling the coil the stock ECU seems to do nothing for the Tach even though its still installed.

The harness is not cleaned up, a bunch of wires are way too long but I was happy it started the first try. We spent about 16 hours messing around with stuff, and most of them time was spent finding out that we didnt have the right software to match the MSII Rev 2.888 firmware on the MSII controller.

We goofed around with the rev limiter and set a 2000 soft 2025 hard limiter but since it was reving at 1800 rpms (we didnt try to fix anything) it had a hard time functioning. Also I am using simultaneous injection (1 batch fire) so there is still a lot of fuel in the motor when the rev limiter engages. We didnt try a timing retard yet.

So many things to play with and its just crazy to see what we have control of with a few simple connectors!

And the 3.0 engine was designed for forklifts so it was not planned for boost, it was an industrial application propane engine, thats why its overbuilt.
But yes, there is a huge difference between a motor that comes with low compression pistons, large ring gaps, and low top rings....and a motor that comes with high compression, small ring gaps, and high top rings.

Try building n/a 2.2/2.5's with n/a pistons and TII rods. I'd read for years how "stupid" this kind of idea is but those are someone elses words.

Aries_Turbo

10-04-2009, 02:46 PM

did you get my PM with the timing spreadsheet? did I make sense? I was trying to send it before the battery died on my laptop.

you may just want to make your own timing map for vacuum as the factory had dips and blips in the curves. looked like it had a dip near the torque peak for some reason. probably so it would run fine without pinging on 87 octane with a heavy load in a van.

I read about the repairs that had to be done on your MS. is the actual processor not spitting out the injector signal to U7 or is U7 damaged and not sending out the signal to the injector drivers?

I want to put together a MS3. that thing looks SICK!

so when are we going to see some high rev, high boost 3.0L vids?

Brian

turbovanman²

10-04-2009, 03:21 PM

But see im just a kindred spirit who doesnt like spending money. I see all these people buying forged pistons and stuff and im thinking brent could buy 3 500hp-capable longblocks for the same price as 4 forged pistons that 90% of people wont get close to 500 hp on.

If you like labour over a few bucks, be my guest. I'll spend $400 or ? over takign the motor out every other day. When you have a family, job, life, things start to make sense, taking a motor out every day isn't for me and 99% of the people on this forum. Add up the cost, labour to replace the motor 4 times in a week, $400 sounds damn good.

Have not fixed the headgasketet yet but the car just started using MSII on the first attempt. Clears out the WD-40 that was in the motor (keeping it from rusting when I had accidentally put coolant back in and it leaked into the cylinders) and then starts burbling and then roars to life.

One problem is the MSII doesnt seem to be super simple to set up for the zeitronix output. Its not a linear signal but we can change the zeitronix settings to change the narrowband wire to a linear wideband wire. Then we would just need the lower and upper points on the linear scale (only have the scale info for the non linear scale).

The other problem is that we have no tach in the car. Tried stealing input directly from the low data rate wire on the distributor. Not sure what else to try. DIYAutotune says "this is the advantage of a parallel install" but with the MSII controlling the coil the stock ECU seems to do nothing for the Tach even though its still installed.

The harness is not cleaned up, a bunch of wires are way too long but I was happy it started the first try. We spent about 16 hours messing around with stuff, and most of them time was spent finding out that we didnt have the right software to match the MSII Rev 2.888 firmware on the MSII controller.

We goofed around with the rev limiter and set a 2000 soft 2025 hard limiter but since it was reving at 1800 rpms (we didnt try to fix anything) it had a hard time functioning. Also I am using simultaneous injection (1 batch fire) so there is still a lot of fuel in the motor when the rev limiter engages. We didnt try a timing retard yet.

So many things to play with and its just crazy to see what we have control of with a few simple connectors!

And the 3.0 engine was designed for forklifts so it was not planned for boost, it was an industrial application propane engine, thats why its overbuilt.
But yes, there is a huge difference between a motor that comes with low compression pistons, large ring gaps, and low top rings....and a motor that comes with high compression, small ring gaps, and high top rings.

Try building n/a 2.2/2.5's with n/a pistons and TII rods. I'd read for years how "stupid" this kind of idea is but those are someone elses words.

Where do you get the forklift info from?

Dodge did have factory turbo 3.0L's, wish they hadn't dropped it.

As for N/A engines, I did it by accident, too bad I didn't know and it could have held together longer. My TIII was a high compression motor for awhile, over 9:1 before I realized it, it held together just fine, :nod:

Glad your getting the MS worked out, it will be awesome when you can keep it together and rip off some stupid times, :p

Ondonti

10-04-2009, 04:16 PM

Early 80's forklifts were the original motor Use. One of the shortblocks was for sale on ebay last year.
The motor was already developed before it was used in cars. Thats why the sohc probably has such pathetic cams etc. That way it could make good low rpm power for extended periods of time.
I haven't had the mental energy to read much of this thread or respond about the spark maps. Not much left in the tank and I can't believe it even started because i was feeling so out of it. We are having an unemployment car party at bansheenut's....cause nobody had had to go to work the past few days thanks to the economy.

I have Spark and VE curves from Nathan wilbur. He didnt tell me what was not working on the board. he just said the first injector driver did not work. I had to put it on simultaneous fuel injection since I just have one driver.

Sorta unhappy about the tach and i need to get a few sensors set up correctly. Also have to fix one of the o rings on the front head.

black86glhs

10-04-2009, 04:27 PM

Hey, isn't that the Simon Brotherhood Club you're referencing:p? If I come home on a towtruck one more time this year, I'll be an honorary member myself:oLuckily, I have taken mine apart before needing the TT. Still makes me a hack!!!!:thumb:

Hahahhaa, maybe a few years ago, haven't need a tow truck for 3 years now, :thumb:Only because you haven't roached the trans.....LOL!!!:p

Early 80's forklifts were the original motor Use. One of the shortblocks was for sale on ebay last year.
The motor was already developed before it was used in cars. Thats why the sohc probably has such pathetic cams etc. That way it could make good low rpm power for extended periods of time.
I haven't had the mental energy to read much of this thread or respond about the spark maps. Not much left in the tank and I can't believe it even started because i was feeling so out of it. We are having an unemployment car party at bansheenut's....cause nobody had had to go to work the past few days thanks to the economy.

I have Spark and VE curves from Nathan wilbur. He didnt tell me what was not working on the board. he just said the first injector driver did not work. I had to put it on simultaneous fuel injection since I just have one driver.

Sorta unhappy about the tach and i need to get a few sensors set up correctly. Also have to fix one of the o rings on the front head.

Brent, isn't 6 injectors on one driver too much for it? Almost every batch system is 3 & 3 or 4 & 4. Could that be an issue?

t3rse

10-04-2009, 06:39 PM

Yep, he took the time to TALK to me on the phone for literally hours to help mu understand cals, without him, I wouldn't have gone as fast this year and have the potential to go faster, but my own stupidity got in the way.

But you ARE a slow learner...:D

Ondonti

10-04-2009, 09:17 PM

Brent, isn't 6 injectors on one driver too much for it? Almost every batch system is 3 & 3 or 4 & 4. Could that be an issue?

I was told the MS injector drivers are VERY robust, and can handle 12 cylinder applications (aka 6 injecters per driver).

Working on the head now.

Probably going to switch the narrowband output on the zeit to linear wideband and use the equation to fill in the end points of the sensor range for MSII to use.
For tach I am not sure. I really don't want to buy a tach and fit it into the car.

black86glhs

10-04-2009, 09:19 PM

I was told the MS injector drivers are VERY robust, and can handle 12 cylinder applications (aka 6 injecters per driver).

If they can, no problem. I personally didn't know. Just thought I'de ask in case it was overlooked. :thumb:

Vigo

10-04-2009, 10:27 PM

If you like labour over a few bucks, be my guest. I'll spend $400 or ? over takign the motor out every other day. When you have a family, job, life, things start to make sense, taking a motor out every day isn't for me and 99% of the people on this forum. Add up the cost, labour to replace the motor 4 times in a week, $400 sounds damn good.

I still dont see why people think the breakage is such a bad thing when he is intentionally trying to find out what will happen where. Everybody on the 2.2/2.5 bottom end has seen rod bolt failures on 440whp, headgasket failures on the #4 cylinder, melted pistons at certain boost levels and egts, etc etc etc. BUT, for MOST people, they've seen them on OTHER PEOPLE'S CARS, because OTHER people found the limits so 95% of us dont have to. Nobody has attempted a lot of the things Brent is trying. Also, Brent doesn't daily drive this car, he has a perfectly reliable 14 sec n/a spirit for that. This car is meant for finding limits, and the faster he finds them, the faster he knows what to fix and what not to do. So i still dont get all the complaining about breaking things. I dont particularly care if i break my aries either. Its an almost free motor, free tranny, etc. Its not my daily driver and with a little help from my friends i can patch it back together in a day if i want to. Or push it into a corner for months. whatever. Its a toy. a cheap toy. The day it gets too expensive to break will be the day i stop beating on it, but i can make sure that never happens by not dumping too much money into it in the first place.

Anyway good to hear the MS is finally running the car!

Aries_Turbo

10-04-2009, 10:58 PM

I was told the MS injector drivers are VERY robust, and can handle 12 cylinder applications (aka 6 injecters per driver).

Working on the head now.

Probably going to switch the narrowband output on the zeit to linear wideband and use the equation to fill in the end points of the sensor range for MSII to use.
For tach I am not sure. I really don't want to buy a tach and fit it into the car.

they are robust if you are using the add on flyback board when using low impedance injectors.

when i helped set up a friends megasquirt, i thought it had the zeitronix wideband translation curves ready to select? another friend had a zeitronix feeding wideband signals directly into his MS on his turbo neon.

I read the one post where Nathan wrote back to you about what he replaced. did he replace U7 (FET driver if you are using a V2.2 board) or U4 (FET driver if you are using a V3.0 board)? on my friends MS, he popped U7 (he has a V2.2 board and MS2 processor) and thats what drives the injector driver transistors. we socketed that chip (8 pin little thing) and before he plugged in a new U7, we hooked the stimulator up to it and used a small LED test light (you could also use a meter set to V) to probe the pins where the pulsed output from the MS2 processor comes. we slowed down the pulses pretty slow by lowering the map and rpm simulated knobs on the stimulator and could verify that the MS2 processor was sending signals to U7 (in his case) to make sure that we didnt burn out the outputs from the MS2 processor itself.

if the MS2 is creating the signals, its most likely that FET driver thats the culprit.

brian

Aries_Turbo

10-04-2009, 11:20 PM

I still dont see why people think the breakage is such a bad thing when he is intentionally trying to find out what will happen where.

its the principle..... when you say "I have a 500whp car" and it is reliable and lasts for years without blowing up, its much more impressive than when it breaks all the time.

i know he is looking to find limits and make power. but he is doing it backwards. i know a RRR and a N/A ecu is easier. but it creates problems (pushing coolant) that you may blame on the hard parts (weak head structure) when its most likely too much timing. he could have made 600whp (speculation, yes i know) with proper timing control from the beginning.

its like simon. he continues to run too much timing (yes i know he doesnt care about this half blown up motor) and then asks "why did i shoot a stream of coolant out the side of the head????" when its obvious to anyone who digs deep in to engine management tuning.

so now that he has total timing and fuel control, its like starting all over again. those whp numbers are going to fall when you take away all that timing. the engine will be much happier though. the boost will have to be higher to make the previous numbers once the timing is taken away and the bragging rights will go right out the window. :)

you dont have to break tons of stuff all the time when doing development on a unproven engine combo. you apply the tricks from other engine testing and see where it might relate on the engine that you are currently working on.

i kinda wish i had my 3.0L back sometimes. would i use all of brents work to build mine. NO. would i apply everything that ive learned over the years on other engine builds on my 3.0L build? yes. would everyone open their fat mouth and say "yeah but brent did all the hard work for you".... YES. would they even listen to my defense? nope....

Everybody on the 2.2/2.5 bottom end has seen rod bolt failures on 440whp

you talking about gary? those were ARP rod bolts. not stock. that was a defective fastener. i saw the rod myself in person later and what was left of the bolt. stock shot peened rod with some light beam polishing. reeves is pushing way more than that through stock rods with the usual shot peening and beam polishing. larryb is making 531+ at the REAR wheels (ie more drivetrain loss) on stock rods with the usual shot peening and beam polishing.

yes i know it proves your point that others have done some work in the past that many others can learn from but i dont want people to be misled that the stock rods are no good after 440whp cause its not true.

Brian

Ondonti

10-05-2009, 05:27 AM

I had a 500hp motor that I took apart to inspect and decided not to put back together ( Just a nick on piston that I wanted to polish out) but low compression on e85 would make no sense and run horribly. That ran for 3 years and never stopped running. I am using the cylinder heads from that motor right now.

Nothing broke on this current motor and I have pictures of the interesting stuff that the copper wire did. It actually blew out 2 cylinders, the MLS gasket is ruined. The copper wire does very very interesting stuff. We found a way to simulate what it does with a vice and 2 pieces of stainless steel.
I was going to rering the front head but now I have some choices since the rear head still has a good cometic gasket but I would rather have the Mitsu MLS gasket on there.

The nice thing about the copper wire is that it bulged out in places on the 2 bad cylinders instead of just hacking the piston to pieces. It solves the cylinder head deck flex issue fairly well from what I have seen and it has some level of weakness so extreme cylinder pressures from detonation have a possible escape.
Pictures not uploaded yet. They are really cool. The .012" wire I installed became a .005" thick ring and even if it bulged out in 2 cylinders from detonation, it still would hold its ground wherever it stopped. The 2 bad rings must have gotten pushed near the intake side coolant passages (weakest part of the head) and when sustained to large amounts of heat and combustion pressure on the dyno, finally gave out. The street pulls never put much load on the motor and the load was for a tiny amount of time.

I may consider installing the copper wire between the head gasket instead of gasket to block. One issue I can see is expansion rates between the gasket and head messing with the copper ring. Reason to do it, to get a tighter pinch on the head instead of relying on the headgasket to "notice" the copper wire an pinch upwards.

#2 on the front head was perfectly fine. I did not pull the rear head because I was planning to just fix the O ring.

Vigo

10-05-2009, 09:18 AM

you talking about gary? those were ARP rod bolts. not stock. that was a defective fastener. i saw the rod myself in person later and what was left of the bolt. stock shot peened rod with some light beam polishing. reeves is pushing way more than that through stock rods with the usual shot peening and beam polishing. larryb is making 531+ at the REAR wheels (ie more drivetrain loss) on stock rods with the usual shot peening and beam polishing.

yes i know it proves your point that others have done some work in the past that many others can learn from but i dont want people to be misled that the stock rods are no good after 440whp cause its not true.

Ok, well im not trying to teach anyone anything about 8vs, just making a point, so we're both right. If reeves and larryB WERENT makling more than 440 and noone ever had, we wouldnt really know that they COULD take more and everyone would start buying expensive rods at 400whp just because one person blew them up and word got around. So luckily someone else did it for us so we dont go off wasting our money on things we dont need.

turboshad

10-05-2009, 11:57 AM

For tach I am not sure. I really don't want to buy a tach and fit it into the car.

The tach driver is very easy to build and was the only thing that worked dependibly for me. There should be no issues running the stock tach with the driver in place.

Vigo

10-05-2009, 01:53 PM

except that the stock tach doesnt go as high as he wants to rev. :p

I think a little bit of money for a good tacch would be worth it. The stock one isnt very accurate, and the $12 i got from harbor freight is even less accurate.. so id say bump up to the $30 ones at least. :p

Dan15

10-05-2009, 02:41 PM

i have forged pistons in my k car. do i need it now at 18-20 psi that i usually run. not really (especially given terry's evidence at 35+ psi on 2.5L cast).

Brian

Never heard of him? 35psi on cast is crazy! Links to info?

turbovanman²

10-05-2009, 03:58 PM

Never heard of him? 35psi on cast is crazy! Links to info?

Gasketmaster is his name and he has the 11 sec Minivan. :nod:

Ondonti

10-05-2009, 07:00 PM

The tach driver is very easy to build and was the only thing that worked dependibly for me. There should be no issues running the stock tach with the driver in place.

i have msII but no "extra" so I don't know what to do about driving the tach. I like my stock tach and don't really like the idea of adding a gauge. The stock tach does read to 7k and it can move all the way to a "pretend" 9k but I don't know if it will get stuck up there. Mine have always been accurate.

For short term tuning purposes maybe the 12 dollar junk tach would work but I want to get the stock tach working :)

Aries_Turbo

10-05-2009, 09:56 PM

have you started laying out your breakpoints (X and Y axis points) on the ms2? can i get a screenshot?

im working on a decent timing map that will take out the blips and dips in the stock curves and will have some decent safe estimation for boost up to 29psi. of course youll want to hook up something to listen to knock and slowly raise the boost and set the curves for what you can run max.

will you still have the distributor set at 12deg static?

these may not make sense but here are some screenshots of what im coming up with. the stock computer looks at the RPM value and comes up with a timing value based on AdvanceFromRPM. then it looks at the MAP value (ie vac or boost) and then comes up with a timing value based on AdvanceFromMapWarm (either part or full throttle... since im making up stuff, im only worried about one table and part is the one im using... for the S60 the part and full throttle MAP table is the same) then it adds the timing values together. if its in boost it typically subtracts timing from the RPM table value.

the blue line is the values that im coming up with that i think will work well.

the black lines are the stock values or the S60 values for comparison.

My Values vs 3.0L Map Values. Note... the stock is correct in relation to the blue line... the stock is a 1-bar table and the one im making is a 3-bar so the 1 bar values get scrunched to their proper location.
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17796&stc=1&d=1254793873

My Values vs 3.0L RPM Values
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17797&stc=1&d=1254793873

My Values vs S60 MAP Values
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17798&stc=1&d=1254793873

My Values vs S60 RPM Values
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17799&stc=1&d=1254793873

Brian

Aries_Turbo

10-05-2009, 10:00 PM

Ok, well im not trying to teach anyone anything about 8vs, just making a point, so we're both right. If reeves and larryB WERENT makling more than 440 and noone ever had, we wouldnt really know that they COULD take more and everyone would start buying expensive rods at 400whp just because one person blew them up and word got around. So luckily someone else did it for us so we dont go off wasting our money on things we dont need.

hell, i sure wasnt going to buy $$$ rods. :) ive seen inside alot of engines and i knew the T2 ones are beefy.

plus gary said "it was the defective ARP rod bolts fault".

also, ive seen built BEEFY engines die because of crap tuning.

add that all up and the end result is: Keep pushing stock t2 rods. :)

Brian

turbovanman²

10-06-2009, 01:44 AM

Nice pics Brian, close to my curves too, :thumb: I am glad you posted up the S60 tables as they are slightly different in my Dcal, maybe you rescaled them?

Can you send me that/your S60 cal please, :thumb:

FYI, Reeves is now running aluminium rods, :D

Ondonti

10-06-2009, 10:11 PM

Working on my headgaskets now. I have some really cool pictures of what happened to the cometic gaskets. i actually blew out 3 cylinders, 1 just barely leaked.
The cometics are junk so I am reusing the MLS headgaskets that came on the diamante motor. Did some tests with a vice and the .014" wire crushes to .005" (between two pieces of a cut up worm gear clamp, same as it crushes under the headgasket) and the .022" wire I am using now crushes to .007 and seems a bit more robust.
One problem with the copper wire on the Cometic was that It was installed slight outside the fire ring so it didn't have anything to hold it in place. The current wire is being installed just before the fire ring so hopefully it stays put and doesnt push out the other direction either.

Read about 400 posts in the TD 3.0 quarry last night, tracked down M90daytona, and found that his tach was working and how he did it :)
Maybe this doesnt work for TD guys but for 3.0's it does as long as you keep the stock ecu.
480ohm resistor on the signal wire that goes to the MS (from the dist) prevents the MS from hogging all the signal (i think) and allows the tach to work :)
1k resistor makes both fail.

He has a job again and is busy with "work" but I don't know if he still has his car. He tried to sell it on ebay last june.

Ondonti

10-07-2009, 08:15 AM

"oringed" heads installed. This time I torqued the stock bolts to 95ft/lb (stock turbo spec is 90).

I am not really excited to have it running again because I don't really want to deal with tuning it. Its so loud that just idling makes me feel like a prick.

Ondonti

10-10-2009, 07:32 AM

Megasquirt is officially tuning itself. All my tables are scaled to what I want them and rebuilt to my desires. AFR target table is allowing megasquirt to slowly change the VE tables in order to match my AFR targets.

Still some things to learn more about but for now this is pretty exciting.

Big problem on first long test drive was that we apparently bent the motor bracket that the PS pump attaches to so the pulley is not lining up. We threw the serp belt when we pulled over to mess with the idle speed.

Going to try to take a nap and try to massage that a bit so we can drive to the Utah TD meet tomorrow.

Ondonti

10-10-2009, 07:32 AM

Aries_Turbo

10-10-2009, 09:10 AM

congrats. i love auto-tune. :)

what does your timing map look like?

Brian

DodgeZ

10-10-2009, 03:40 PM

if you hold down ALT and hit print screen it will take the picture of just the active window. also vista search for "snipping tool". That you dont have to screen shot your whole screen.

turbovanman²

10-10-2009, 03:49 PM

Awesome, :thumb:

Anymore drag racing left?

MS can self learn, neato, :D

Ondonti

10-10-2009, 10:27 PM

if you hold down ALT and hit print screen it will take the picture of just the active window. also vista search for "snipping tool". That you dont have to screen shot your whole screen.

Case for the PS pump seems to be broken after I pryed it back into place to keep it from throwing belts.....oh well, I don't really care. What bad can happen to it when it runs dry besides noise? Leaking too fast to keep putting fluid in.

Snipping tool sounds cool. What is vista search? My laptop has vista. The Alt key thing helps. I hate cutting and pasting in paint to a new image file. Saved me 30 seconds now :)
Guessing snipping tool can take anything I put a box around?

I made this chart in about an hour. I based the 322 kpa (about 32psi) high rpm advance on #'s I got from 3000gt guys. Chris Hill is making 750/750 on 24 degrees timing (4 valve head needs less timing) on 30psi, E85 (now E98).

Remember My timing is the picture plus 12 degrees base timing.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/Timingadvancepicture.jpg

Still way lean in boost so at the Utah Shelby meet I added 20% across the board in all VE squares that are "in boost"
TPS is WAY messed up. I don't know how Nathan drives his car with the TPS settings like this. If I hit the throttle it floods. I need to fix it. makes it hard to keep the car running if it bogs on fuel cause hitting the throttle just dumps more fuel.

3 people in the car on the way home and 9psi and we raced a big Yamaha bullet bike who couldnt stop looking. Stayed right with him even with some rich misfire. I didnt even get above 5500 rpms! Short shifted and let off the throttle so the TPS flooded the motor when I got back on it, didnt matter because a car was coming up. Thumbs up between participants. Just a roll race where I was not even in the right gear. Raced him in 3rd gear at 40mph.

Still have not gotten above 6200 rpms. Limiter set at 7000 Expecting the valves to float with my big cams and "new" stock valve springs. Need some Starion springs like I talked Nathan into buying!

BTW my cam gears are straight up now (no more 4 degree advance) and I want to enjoy them or see what fails in the valvetrain :confused::eyebrows:

I think I have learned enough in my previous E85 experiment to feel pretty good about the timing as far as safety vs power goes. I was running 38 degrees total timing on E85 even at 22 psi boost (and did 446whp on 4 cylinders at 19psi) but I think that there was way too much timing even with my octane.
To get an idea of how much timing I ran on my built shortblock, 7:1 compression, 22 degrees base timing, 26 degrees advance. 48 degrees total timing! That ended up making 516whp on 91 octane + meth. I didnt really have timing control and we were fighting spark blowout so I stupidly advanced the timing out of 'excitment' though 48 degrees of timing didnt make more power then 44 degrees (it originally was 18 base timing).
The only thing that helped power was leaning it out a bit. 44 vs 48 degrees made the same power (502-504).

The problem was that it looked like we gained slight peak power from more timing but it was actually spark blowout causing a shaky graph.
Dropped the plug gap and it made a smooth pull! Didn't figure out what I "should have done" until later looking at the datalogs and dyno sheets.

If I had realized at first that it was spark blowout (and not have forgotten I advanced the timing) I would not have added timing. When you have excess octane, you can normally run a couple degrees more timing then optimal without detonation, HP just won't increase or may even drop. Low octane setups often detonate before optimum timing is reached.

Therefore when tuning on the dyno, the moment HP stops increasing (assuming no knock) consider dialing the timing back unless you are really certain of your knock prevention. One cool thing is that MS has 0.1 timing increments. My friend has seen 40whp from a few tenths of a degree of timing in the Supra world.

Of course I can't really expect anything like that nor can i afford hours of dyno time to maximize power.

Aries_Turbo

10-10-2009, 11:39 PM

you using a 4 bar map?

Brian

Ondonti

10-11-2009, 12:01 AM

Yes. I decided to stop scaling after 355 kpa :P

The TPS is giving me fits. I need to read up on it. I think its adding up to 15 ms pulsewidths of fuel! i just don't really know how it works yet or why Nathan set it up this way or if he never really tried to make it run better. The moment I tap the gas in a quick manner it pegs the wideband, even if I don't give it much throttle angle. Just the act of quickly moving the throttle bogs things out. Makes it hard to keep it running if it stalls cause jabbing the gas floods it.

Ondonti

10-11-2009, 06:27 AM

And yes, I call ------- on the man who could have had fully cracked calibrations for EVERY TD 10 years ago, already had a real job and was doing a side business that didnt work out.....and then years later still holds onto the things that make people slaves to him.

Me, I could try to profit from my hobby or help others. I know what makes me feel better inside. A man that lies and tells people he shifts at 5000 rpms when he has barely gotten into his powerband and himself complained about all his high rpm motor failures (like the dyno pull that nuked his last engine). The guy thats tells everyone to run 'stock everything, its the fastest" while he throws away all the stock parts or modifies them (because they obviously are not the "fastest" stock) but never really talks about that fact!:thumb:
I know what makes him happy, having people look up to him. Me, I like helping people. Thats why I make bansheenut sit and watch me build tables for MS and do other things so he will understand how to do it himself when the time comes. Thats how I treat everyone who has a willing mind and a good heart.

Hit 6700 rpms tonight and after fixing timing table that somehow uploaded using the wrong RPM/MAP bins, car breaks 3rd gear drag radials loose at 5000+ rpms on 9psi.

Did some auto tuning. Going to be hard to autotune the boosted spots because I never stay at that rpm for long. Going to have to change somethings. The car is almost always decelling which also makes autotune hard to use. Also hard to stay close to cell points so I am thinking about increasing the radius of the autotune correction.

The "bad" table upload bothers me a bit. Not sure why that happened. The table I posted above loaded to the MSII with the RPM and MAP range all stock n/a 3.0 stuff....so it was running 15 degrees retarded timing at WOT out of boost!!!!!!!!!! Still ran good, just probably 50+whp short on power.

ohiorob

10-11-2009, 09:11 AM

never knew the 3.0 had so much potential. looking foreword to that 10 second run.

Shadow24

10-11-2009, 05:12 PM

whats your MAP/TPS throttle enrich bias? nathan and i are running 90% MAP based enrich. also, what sort of numbers do you have in the cells for accel enrich? i initially put WAY to high numbers and would flood the motor on tip-in. now tip-in rev response is great. see the screenshot below.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j16/shadowplane676/accelEnrich-1.jpg

nmw2006

10-11-2009, 06:24 PM

Yeah sounds to me like something is backwards with your accel enrichment. Mine works perfectly fine, slight tip-in adds something like 0.5ms of pulsewidth for less than half a second and smashing the gas gives like 1.5ms of extra fuel. This amount also varies on how fast/hard you stomp it hence the graph of rate of change/amount of fuel added.

All you need to do is to either increase the rates of kpa/sec or to decrease the amount of fuel it adds with the current accel rate.

From what I have found my TPS signal is noisy so I use 90% map based accel enrichment and only 10% TPS based vs. using more or all TPS based.

nmw2006

10-11-2009, 06:48 PM

Also for some answers to all of Ondonti's MS issues/questions with my work on it....

Most of our correspondence about what I did to it was via PMs, he is free to post them.

But anyhow, I actually ended up re-soldering about half of the board because whoever built it had some really shoddy skills. (I apologize if it was you.)

When I tested the output from the processor, it seemed to be working fine, so I changed the U4 FET driver. I also changed the U3 and U7 since they came with the IC package I ordered. However this did not change anything, so I traced the signal to the actual output transistors(Q16 - VB921). Did not seem to be getting any signal through these so i changed first Q16 (the high current IC driver) then all of (Q1,Q3,Q5,Q9,Q11,Q12) just to make sure nothing was fried during initial build-up. I also later changed the small transistors for the same reason (Q2,Q4,Q10,Q13,Q14,Q15,Q19,Q20). After all this I was ready to throw the thing through my kitchen window but decided against that. I ended up tracing, checking all the components, and re-soldering the whole output sections of the board just to make sure there was not a problem externally.

Anyhow, long story short, I concluded that the actual MS board is internally shorted or a trace burnt because all of the components have been either checked or replaced. It should not be a problem with the MS processor or the U4 FET due to the fact the the #2 driver works fine.

At this point (After many, many hours of fighting with it) I sent it back to Brent and told him his best option was to simply run one injector driver or to send it to a vendor/get a new one. He sent me one of his old turbos as payment for the parts I bought and the hours I put into trying to fix it.

I also loaded it up with the code that I was using at the time (MSII rev 2.888 i believe) which ran my car perfectly N/A and told him he would have to change the maps to use it under boost.

Hope this clears up my involvement in the project as many people seem to be wondering what the heck I did to it.

Aries_Turbo

10-11-2009, 08:01 PM

i dont doubt you nathan. i just was curious.

i have a little LED test light that came with my wifes remote starter i put on her neon. i used that to test my friends MS cause its easy to see the pulsing when you turn map and rpm down real low with the stimulator. i know its a little late now and brent is using the MS and probably wont dig further but i bet with a little more digging around, the problem could be found but its no big deal.

Brent, how did the valve springs like high RPM?

Brian

Aries_Turbo

10-11-2009, 10:38 PM

Here is a 3.0L timing map for the MS that i came up with based on the stock 3.0L 89 SMEC timing with some tweaks that you could see in those images i posted up previously in the thread. i took into account the factory table AdvanceFromRpmMAX to limit the advance in the upper rpms. this table mainly limited advance in the high rpms at high vacuum.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17934&stc=1&d=1255314631

Brent, i see that your timing map doesnt change after 4000 with respect to RPM. you should have some advance increase as the rpms rise as the physical time for combustion decreases.

id use the map that i made as it is the same as the factory map except for the tweaks i made for power and the reduction of advance in boost. it should be pretty safe and will allow you to push the envelope with less chances of nuking the engine due to timing.

Brian

Reaper1

10-12-2009, 12:25 AM

Just like taking it all in and cheering on the 3.0 guys! :thumb: Living the dream I always knew to be true! Brings a tear to my eye...just wish I could be more of a part of it all!

bakes

10-12-2009, 12:32 AM

Ondonti

10-12-2009, 05:43 AM

I know I can pick up timing in the higher rpms but right now I want to keep getting work on the VE's and feeling out the car.

I am NOT tuning for power right now, I am probably going to take the drag radials off cause they drive me crazy from the fact that they don't like to let go at the same time so they take the car side to side as they trade off traction.
Honestly I am scared and i am sorta glad my water pump seems to have almost completely seized. 200k miles on the motor, something had to fail :P

I am honestly scared now because the doors are so wide open. Grab some 96# injectors, run 40 pounds of boost, kill myself in a ball of flames or 150mph rollover, or take things really really slow! With EGO correction there is nothing really stopping me from cranking the boost controller and running to wherever my injectors and Meth system runs out of steam. I figure thats around 550-600hp depending on how much base fuel pressure I run. Since I removed the RRR I can't make as much power on my injectors.
I won't start adding Meth until 15-17psi territory but I am already scared to get near there.

Car has been hard to start the last few days and I thought it was MS but I guess it was the waterpump bearings geeking out. When I did a slow 3000 to 6000 rpm pull up a hill (part throttle to help autotune non boost tables) I think all those rpms including the foot stop I did from 6000 to 6650 did the bearings in completely. I barely made it up the hill after I realized 5th gear was bogging down. I figured a piston blew somehow but the plugs came out clean and cam timing was still on. Glad it didnt wreck my nice valves.

I am excited to try some higher rpms but also scared of the consequences. I don't know if i will even be able to tell on the street of the lifters collapse or valves float. When in boost things happen so fast. I think I might be able to rev to 7500 on these 3000 mile stock valve springs because my valves are about 15% lighter then stock (even though they are oversize). Not really sure though. Nathan has had problems at only 6000! Maybe his springs are just junk. He grabbed some Starion springs that I told him about.
I will rev to 8k if I can get away with it on Starion springs and possibly titanium retainers if they will fit. I want to see what the powerband looks like up there. The car is crazy with the cams straight up as my cam grinder meant them to be. They have not been straight up since I ran 107mph on stock intake manifold and 5psi boost on drag radials. Ever since then I have been worrying about widening the powerband because of the between shift bog slicks can create.

Ondonti

10-12-2009, 07:16 AM

Oh, and brian's map there he made for me is not including my base 12 degrees.

Aries_Turbo

10-12-2009, 11:15 AM

right... that is only the electronic advance.

my only power mod is to remove the dip that the stock ecu had near the torque peak because the engine was rated for 87 octane and had no knock detection.

I also added a little bit of timing (a degree or two) above the stock redline as youll be revving the engine higher than that.

other than that, i made it pretty conservative.

brian

Aries_Turbo

10-12-2009, 11:20 AM

oh btw... isnt having full control of the engine management fun? :)

Brian

bakes

10-12-2009, 12:43 PM

Reaper1

10-12-2009, 01:41 PM

Brent it is time to bite the bullet , save up and install a full cage . It's going to save your but and strengthen you car helping to take some of the flex out (better handling and launches).
I just don't want to see you get hurt or worse!

I agree with this! I also think that you seriously need to practice loading the car with the brakes if you are determined to tune on the street. It is crazy and dangerous to tune at those speeds on the street. Load the car where you want to test and do it at lower speeds = MUCH safer.

It's either that or tune at the track or dyno. Running the car up through the gears on the street when it is making that much power is insane. I hate to think about the consequences. :(

Vigo

10-12-2009, 01:44 PM

No, dont put a cage in that car! Put one in the rust-free one you'll be getting from me :)

You know you're coming up to the point where this engine will need to go into a body worth modding for AWD....

Aries_Turbo

10-12-2009, 04:57 PM

Brent, you probably should buy a cheap set of pads and rotors (or grab used spares for free) and tune like Reaper said. use 3rd gear and hammer the brakes and the gas at the same time so you can load the engine fully using the brakes. maybe second if the speed gets too fast.

that way, the engine acceleration can be slowed down in boost to allow the autotune to correct more accurately and you can get the combustion temps/EGTs high enough to stabilize where you can find out if you need more or less timing in a given area.

im going to try to get back to my knock box project soon as another resource that you can use to tune with. either that or get a bosch sensor and hook it up to headphones like DJ did to hear knock.

it is a little scary when you now have the control and you start to push it higher and higher.

go slow though. 1 psi at a time and start as low as you can go. :)

Brian

Ondonti

10-13-2009, 08:08 AM

Ondonti

10-13-2009, 08:09 AM

The car unfortunately has a a stiffer spring in the tial 38 now so I cant go less then 9 something psi boost.

I need to redo the headgaskets because these OEM MLS had crap between the layers and spits out water and oil into the block valley.

With the powersteering run dry its extra scary as I am used to being able to keep the car straight with just a little arm wiggle. Need to fix the damage I did to the pump trying to straighten out the bracket it attaches to. The bracket got a bit weaker making room for the Mitsu oil filter and I sorta dropped the engine onto the bracket while the PS was still attached.....uhhhh :P

I will say this, the MS almost makes the car feel "new" because I have gone from running 11.5@125 on no technology, no tune, no map sensor understanding what boost is, to having complete control of....everything, and even having a computer that will automatically correct fueling issues until I get the VE maps sorted, and even then can be set to always run closed loop.

It reminds me of driving my dads 2009 corolla (his first new car, not a clunker program purchase either) except this has...boatloads of power even with things turned all the way down. It feels like a new car. The whole feeling of the car is different. Not physical feeling, but the emotional stuff. I don't know how to describe it. Driving along while being connected to the motor in a way that is deeper then a gas pedal and clutch.

A way to describe it is maybe the difference between riding a horse and whipping its rear end hoping to get it to do what you want, compared with whispering in your horse's ear and having it precisely follow your commands.

I enjoyed just feeling the difference between keeping up with a bullet bike while missing 13 degrees of timing...to changing the timing to where i wanted it and all of a sudden deciding I didn't want to go full throttle anymore :p

If I can get the valvetrain to hold together, I am really excited to see what the powerband will be like as I test the RPM limits of my heads.

Ondonti

10-19-2009, 11:25 PM

Apparently all that timing plus 10:1 compression pounded out the center main bearngs, and when the motor suffered a little oil starvation up a hill (exhaust evac prevented heads from draining back into crankcase etc) the already damaged center mains decided to start seizing up. Forged crank 6g72's have this problem around 850AWHP so apparently the cast crank is a lot more sensitive. Just have to avoid detonation, which Megasquirt allows through full timing control.

Just going to polish the main journals and pop in a different set of main bearings (fix has worked for professional 6g72 builders).

Vigo

10-20-2009, 03:44 PM

turbovanman²

10-20-2009, 04:09 PM

I agree with this! I also think that you seriously need to practice loading the car with the brakes if you are determined to tune on the street. It is crazy and dangerous to tune at those speeds on the street. Load the car where you want to test and do it at lower speeds = MUCH safer.

It's either that or tune at the track or dyno. Running the car up through the gears on the street when it is making that much power is insane. I hate to think about the consequences. :(

I agree, we just had some ahole doing 200 km/h or so they speculate in his Bimmer down a main road, cut a Minivan in half, he survived of course and killed 3 in the van.

Great job on the car and i agree with bakes, get a cage installed.

Ondonti

10-20-2009, 06:02 PM

Well, thats a HUGE bummer. i mean if you consider how much those bearings were as a percentage of a $90 motor i think you probly lost about $7 to $8 by trashing them, not to mention anothe $15 or so just to buy new ones! I dont know how you can afford to keep breaking that kinda stuff!!

:p

They are about $10 EACH to replace since I am not a machine shop. I am just going to take the mains from one of the other motors I have...as long as this crankshaft has not been turned before. If so. :( cause I don't trust the machine work in that case.

SpeedyEd on TD pointed me towards http://www.felpro-only.com/tec_notes/Inside_Sealing-Mitsubishi_3.0L_SOHC.pdf

And I am gonna try these gaskets. Its pretty much what I am already doing. DSM guys are recently liking composite gaskets. The used OEM MLS have an oil and slight coolant leak into the valley of the block (probably dirt between one of the layers, the one reason why reusing a "good" gasket can be sketchy). I didnt take good care of the gaskets because I had orignally not planned on using them. I think my headgaskets should seal better as long as I keep detonation at bay. So here goes $40 for new headgaskets. I have to buy 2. The first expense I have made on these motors besides purchase price :mad:

Reaper1

10-21-2009, 01:59 AM

That's an interesting write-up from Fel-Pro. Thanks for posing that!

Ondonti

10-25-2009, 10:01 PM

Talked to Ray Pampena on the phone. Going to polish the main journals and pop in a different set of used bearings. He also taught me a cool trick to pop out the main bearings while the motor is installed. Put a low profile machine screw in the oil feed hole of the main journal and it will pop out the bearing as you turn the crank. I already got mine out but I will be remembering this one.

Probably going to replace the headgaskets with the felpros cause leaking 1 quart of oil every 25 miles makes the car worrisome.

Clean oil pan and check for crap in the bottome end. Then install my oil filter relocation kit. The tiny mitsu filter had about 1-2mm of clearance but its obviously come in contact with the axle many times as there is a little wear spot on the filter............the filter was also the same one that it had at the junkyard :P

Then the most annoying thing, figure out how to repair the PS pump. Pretty sure I destroyed one of the O rings when prying on the pump housing (thought it was misaligned but it was actually loose...DOH!).

I would like to get to a car show next thats coming up in a week or 2.

I still need to learn how to utilize a modified .ini file in MS. The autotune limitations are too restrictive, It cuts off at 4000 rpms, and at anything more then 4" of vacuum (aka it won't learn in boost!).

I was able to modify the .ini file to what I want but I couldn't figure out how to actually use that modified file.

Force Fed Mopar

10-26-2009, 01:50 AM

You need to check my 2.6/3.0 interchange thread ;)

Ondonti

10-26-2009, 07:15 AM

http://autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0353

anyone think I can find some sort of voltage output on this device that correlates to volume or something? Still might try this. would be nice when tuning someone else's car etc.

And after doing some more reading, I am going to probably pick up a knock sensor buffer, which ups the low current from the knock sensor into a useful 0-5v current.
Vishnu sells one with the Exed engine management setup. 100 dollars though. Anyone have a cheaper buffer idea?

Aries_Turbo

10-26-2009, 05:57 PM

Shadow24

10-26-2009, 06:34 PM

http://www.viatrack.ca/

Interfaces with the MS real easy and has an LED indicator. I have mine but haven't gotten mine installed yet :( its only $60 without a sensor though

Ondonti

10-26-2009, 09:18 PM

the problem with trying to derive a 0-5v signal from the knock sensor is that the knock event is so fast that youll easily miss it. also youll have more background engine noise as the revs go up so the signal that means knock at 1500rpms is going to be drastically different at 7000rpms.

listening with your own ears is the best bet short of a microprocessor based system.

Brian

Well the idea is not to be looking for something, but just to use some of the abilities I have. Thats why I would like to have both systems up and running. This is more of a datalogging thing.

Just because you hear knock doesnt mean you know what RPM it happened at. Logs would allow going back and pinpointing when it might have happened.
MS has its own threshold system for reading knock voltage (based on rpm) so I think the knocksense is sorta silly because you will end upalways having high rpm knock if you wish to see low rpm knock (basically the knock sensor will go off the moment your rpms get around 5k even if you are not knocking).

Now if this device is accomplishing the exact same thing as the vishnu buffer then it is cheaper. My issue is that i don't want it guessing what is knock, I just want it increasing the current so I can datalog. Then let me decided.

I also found out that the 2nd wire on my knock sensor is shielding wire to help knock out interference from the alternator etc.

Aries_Turbo

10-26-2009, 10:39 PM

oh really? i didnt realize that MS had its own RPM based knock table. i may have to look into that. I can easily whip up the interface circuit.

EDIT!!!!!! I just looked at the MS2, MS2 Extra and the MS3 documentation. i dont see anything about a 2d RPM referenced threshold table. i still dont believe its implemented like that yet.

brian

Shadow24

10-26-2009, 10:43 PM

do tell. AFAICT you had to feed it the signal somehow (either the GM conditioner or the KnocksenseMS unit) THEN it could "see" knock

Aries_Turbo

10-26-2009, 10:49 PM

it (the current MS scheme) doesnt have the capabilities like i want. thats why i need to finish my knock interface box (been too busy on other stuff). it has a 2d rpm referenced threshold table to determine at a given rpm, what the knock threshold level should be.

the only aftermarket knock solution that i know of that claims to do this, is the turboxs unit. http://www.turboxs.com/more_info.php?ID=212 that unit wants you to rev the engine so that it can determine overall noise levels but it seems that they want you to do it at no load sitting there but the ringing of the block changes the overall noise level and that depends on load and boost. a block rings more at 15psi than it does at no load and it rings even more at 20+psi.

the factory turbo ecu's do too but that doesnt help 3.0L guys.

Brian

Ondonti

10-27-2009, 12:35 AM

This is what I am refering too
A simple knock sensor buffer would do the trick. If the knocksense can do it for cheaper then great, I just don't want knock counts, I want straight voltage and let me decide what is knock based on listening device etc.
so if the knocksense can be used without it saying "this is knock" then that would be nice.
The vishnu just ups the tiny current from the knock sensor instead of trying to interpret anything. The problem is that it costs 100 dollars. The knocksense seems like a bad idea when it comes to integrating it with Ms.

Brian, if you could make something cheaper, I think you could sell units to just about anyone with LC-1 or zeitronix since all they would need is the buffer and a datalogging system (and a brain that can help them interpret results).

Ive read before about the knock sensor settings. Aggressive and safe modes etc. I would probably use safe mode because I would want to actually remove that timing rather then rely on active knock control.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Megasquirt/Tables/KnockthresholdImagenoinfo.jpg

Aries_Turbo

10-27-2009, 09:24 AM

what version of the megasquirt software has that table? ms2?

ive never seen that table before. that is great. its basically the same as the factory ecu stuff minus the individual cyl timing control.

can you take a pic of your mitsu knock sensor that you want to use? i assume that its a narrow range one that is tuned to a specific frequency and doesnt require any additional tuning.

also, what is your bore size? if you find other engines with the same bore size that the knock sensor is a tuned narrow range sensor, you can use it on your motor.

Brian

Aries_Turbo

10-27-2009, 09:25 AM

man.... i just looked. i never saw the description of that table before. that makes it so much easier now. after we determine what type of knock sensor you have, i should be able to whip up a circuit pretty quick.

Brian

Shadow24

10-27-2009, 12:55 PM

hmmm, i'd be interested in trying your circuit to see how it compares to my KnocksenseMS. what is different about your circuit?

i remember that table, i just was thinking there was a table table (like VE or spark) for knock that i didn't know existed

Aries_Turbo

10-27-2009, 01:42 PM

with the knocksense, it determines when you have knock.

when doing it my way, you let the table in the MS determine when you have knock based on the rpm values which is more accurate.

you have to use a narrow range knock sensor thats specific to your bore size though rather than the bosch one that the knocksense uses. a sensor similar to the stock turbo chrysler one.

Brian

Ondonti

10-27-2009, 05:40 PM

Uh well I guess I can dig around for a picture. how am i actually going to help you determine anything with a picture?

Shadow24

10-27-2009, 05:55 PM

lucky me has a stock mitsu sensor that came with the motor from the factory :)

Ondonti

10-27-2009, 06:22 PM

The knock sensor I have is OEM 3.0 6g72 12 valve knock sensor, probably the same one that is on the DOHC's. I am using the mitsu block so it has the knock plate in the block valley with sensor installed.

Aries_Turbo

10-27-2009, 06:28 PM

i can pretty much tell if the knock sensor is a wide range or a knock sensor tuned to a frequency by its physical construction by looking.

here is the factory chrysler knock interface circuit with component values.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18296&stc=1&d=1256680908

for the "output microprocessor" output to clear the capacitor you need to make a circuit that applies power to the base of the capacitor at the exact moment the coil fires. the megasquirt rpm coil pickup circuit would work for this. you would have to take out the coil and spin the distributor till you see the coil firing pulse (use a meter) and make sure that the circuit provides +voltage to the base of the capacitor clearing transistor.

this excerpt from some factory documentation should help that make sense.

1985, '86 & '87 Detonation Sensor and Circuit

Anytime the engine is detonating (above .8 volts at 2,000 RPM or above 4 volts at 4,000 RPM), the detonation sensor outputs an a.c. voltage on the BK/LG wire. This voltage goes into the logic module to the base circuit of Transistor 1. See Fig.30. The resistor and capacitor in parallel with the base circuit of Transistor 1 stabilizes the base circuit voltage. Transistor 1 acts as diode. That is, any positive voltage on the base of Transistor I is allowed to go to the collector and charge up Capacitor 1. See Fig. 30. Since the voltage output of the detonation sensor is a.c. voltage, the voltage impressed at the base of Transistor I will go from a positive voltage to a negative voltage. The positive voltage that has charged up Capacitor 1 now "wants" to go back to the detonation sensor. This voltage is blocked at the collector of Transistor I. In this way Transistor 1 acts as a diode, allowing current flow in one direction (charging up Capacitor 1), and blocking it in the other direction.

Once a capacitor is charged up with voltage, it will keep that charge for a very long time or until it is discharged to ground. The voltage stored in Capacitor 1 is impressed at the input to the A/D converter. See Fig. 30. The logic module monitors the A/D connector every time the coil is fired. Once the engine has detonated, Capacitor 1 voltage level increases. The logic module now takes away the maximum allowed advance on just the cylinder that is detonating (as determined by the sync signal) by 4.2 degrees up to a maximum of 2.8 degrees when there is part throttle and a no boost condition. When the engine is in boost, 2.1 degrees up to a maximum of 15 degrees is taken away from total timing. After the coil has been fired the logic module monitors the A/D converter again to "see" if the voltage has been lowered at Capacitor 1. Remember it was said earlier that a capacitor will hold its charge until allowed to go to ground

here is the MS coil circuit. IRQ1 goes to the base of the capacitor clearing transistor. youll have to refer to the MS 2.2 board documentation to see what to do with the XG1 and XG2 jumper.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18298&stc=1&d=1256682412

im sure ill have to clean this info up a little more but here it is for now.

Brian

Ondonti

10-27-2009, 06:59 PM

I follow the diode talk cause I ended up using bridge rectifiers on my fuel pump voltage drop kit but I don't understand the point of the coil stuff.

Here is the sensor. Looks the same as the evo 8 sensor in this pic. I also have the connector and pigtail on the other side of the connector with 2 wires coming out that instantly turn into weird shielded wire again. I think the shielding wire is just grounded eventually or something...?

I am guessing they are not exactly the same because you can get the evo sensor for cheaper then the 6g72 sensor
http://dsm-ezine.com/Evo8_ECU_in_a_DSM/evo8_knock_sensor.jpg
here a 3000gt one looks exactly the same.
http://www.evilempireperformance.co.uk/images/Knock%20Sensor.JPG

From what i read on an EVO site (and didn't really understand) the knock filters were program'd in dsm's to be a pitch higher then what the actual sensor/motor was...something like that. :confused2:

Anyways I know a knock buffer works because people have used the vishnu device on evo's.

Ondonti

10-27-2009, 07:09 PM

Here is real oem 3000gt parts

http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2784/4661/6959830182_large.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2784/4661/6959830181_large.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2784/4661/6959830183_large.jpg

torque to 17 ft/lb.
I did just read that 1g dsm vs 2g dsm have different knock sensor values/frequencies. 2gdsm and Evo seem to be similar but use different filters in the ROM (ecu) and it might be possible that certain part numbers only differentiate wire length and connector style etc while the sensor might be the same.

Aries_Turbo

10-27-2009, 10:36 PM

looks like a tuned range sensor. should work with this circuit.

the coil stuff is because the knock circuit has a capacitor that charges up and holds the charge to give the ECU time to take a sample. once charged up, a capacitor doesnt lose its charge (unless shorted to ground) so you would always get false knock because the voltage would stay in there, sending that signal to the ecu. the coil circuit is to discharge the capacitor upon each ignition event so that you start fresh (ie ~0v) after the ignition fires and listen to that cylinders knock.

when that coil interface circuit is connected to the negative side of the coil, when the coil fires, a positive pulse will be generated because the ground side is disconnected at the ecu and you now see the voltage from the positive side of the coil. this pulse powers the capacitor clearing transistor on the knock circuit. i need to do a little more digging. i forget how long the coil circuit is off for. if its too long, the knock circuit wont have enough time to charge up the capacitor for the ecu to take a knock reading and you wont get high enough voltages.

i may have to add another device to make sure that:

1. the pulse that is sent to the transistor is a positive one

and

2. its short enough to ensure proper operation.

Brian

Ondonti

10-28-2009, 01:44 AM

Ondonti

10-28-2009, 01:54 AM

What I don't understand about the MS is the knock count. How does it decide what 1 count is vs 2? I guess each knock will only knock once and will always be separated over time so each "knock" = 1 knock count. So if that happens 3 times and you set knock count to 3, then it would retard timing if you set it to 3 knock count....?

I just read about the GM module and I guess it works in reverse, it always sends a signal of voltage (8-10 which is too high so you use a diode to drop that in half) and cuts voltage when knock happens. Does it completely drop voltage or just partly depending on amount of "knock"???

I was sorta looking for something that would send more voltage under knock and less for normal noise...

Aries_Turbo

10-28-2009, 11:43 AM

so you cant have something that just ups current from the knock sensor? Is the complexity if your design necessary for datalogging purposes or the MS thresholds? My understanding is not to sample but to constantly feed the knock voltage to the ECU....? Its always reading noise, and just look out for noise beyond normal at that rpm/load. Your circuit seems a lot more complicated then this and meant for a more complex ECU (like a stock ecu...?)

the ecu isnt "always" reading the noise though. it grabs the voltage level that is sent to the A/D converter every so often. a knock event is crazy fast. if the knock event happens, then the voltage drops back to normal ranges right when the ecu takes its sample, you can miss the knock event. I dont know how fast the MS samples that input for the knock sensor.

I do know the capacitor will store the voltage till the ecu gets to reading it so you NEVER miss a knock event.

then there is the issue that the signal coming out off a knock sensor is an AC wave. you need something to make that wave into DC and this does just that and converts it basically to a 0-5v signal that the ecu can use.

i suppose you could try a diode and a ultra high input impedance op amp set up as a buffer with no amplification but that still wont satisfy the first issue.

part of it is that i know this circuit works and is a great way to implement this. i pulled the values off of my LM at home myself so i know it is correct.

there is still another small issue that im trying to figure out... how long of a pulse to send to the knock clear circuit.... ill have to add an additional circuit to control the pulse of that signal with reference to RPM....

engine management electronics arent as simple as just hooking it up with a wire unfortunately.

do you have a link to that knock amplifier thing that you were talking about?

you could also ask that boris guy to make a knocksense MS that outputs just a 0-5v signal rather than making the knock determination for you.....

Brian

Shadow24

10-28-2009, 01:02 PM

Brent, according to the manual, the MS takes the output voltage (if your using the GM conditioner, it needs to be dropped so you don't fry anything) and you set a threshold that is you on/off for whether or not knock is happening.

Threshold (V): The is the voltage from the knock sensor module which defines whether there is knock occurring or not. Note that you can define a 6-element table of rpm versus voltage instead of a single value. You define this table under 'Settings/Knock Threshold'. The GM sensor/module signal is ON/OFF, but the knock threshold value/table is there in case someone has a system they can calibrate to their car by a threshold.

IIRC each instance the voltage goes above the threshold is considered 1 knock count. Then the safe or aggressive mode dictates how much advance is added compared to the frequency of knock.

Aries_Turbo

10-28-2009, 11:30 PM

ok, after a little digging (with the help of rob lloyd), ive determined that i dont have to turn on the knock capacitor clear circuit long at all for the cap to discharge. it seems that the ecu turns that function on and right back off again. now i just have to make a small circuit that will click that thing on and off again super fast.

Brian

Ondonti

10-29-2009, 08:57 AM

I was not able to find a little sound amp device at walmart. I will look around tomorrow at radioshack but not sure where else to try.

the constant voltage was what the GM setup seems to do.
MS gives control of TPS and MAP sensor sampling rates. No idea how the knock stuff works or is used by the ecu.

I do see "knock averaging lag factor" and I have no idea what that is.

" Input Smoothing Factors Input Smoothing Lag Factors Lag factors force the variables to change more slowly than the actual input value. Note that in all cases, 100 is no lag effect at all, and smaller numbers slow the input response speed. The lag factors are used as follows:

NewValue = PreviousValue + (NewValue - PreviousValue) * (LagFactor/100%)"

So this must be based on some sort of unstated sampling rate right?
There is a lag factor setting for MAP and TPS but both of those have adjustable sampling rates.

"Sampling Rates: Reasonable values for tpsdotSample and mapdotSample are 25 ms for both. If you set mapdotSample and tpsdotSample both to 0, the program will try to sample tps and calculate tpsdot as fast as it can. This will make tpsdot vary all over the place from the tiniest variation in tps. And the same for mapdot. So keep the values reasonable, between ~10 and ~50.

* MAP Sample Rate: Map and Mapdot are sampled/ calculated every tach pulse. But if you get to too high an rpm, such that the time between tach pulses is < mapdotSample, then it leaves the old mapdot until the next tach pulse. This is done so that the total time is > mapdotSample. This prevents noise fluctuation. It doesn't have any downside because acceleration enrichment becomes less and less important as rpm goes up.
* TPS Sample Rate: tpsdot is sampled independently with its own tpsdotSample. It is similar to the mapdot however. It is independent of tach pulse arrival and will, if tpsdot exceeds your threshold, add an accel increment to the pulse width when it is time to inject."

So the MAP sample attempts to sample EVERY coil event until the coil events are happening too fast for a MAP sample to be completed, then it will start skipping every other event. No idea what RPM that would happen at. I am guessing that if you set the sampling rate to 25 milliseconds then I could figure out what rpm it would stop sampling every coil event at.

You can attempt to set it at 0 milliseconds but apparently this causes erratic sampling because its not really possible for the processor and 10ms is a more reasonable lower level setting.

Ondonti

10-29-2009, 10:04 AM

On a side note while looking for info I found that one reason my car is hard to start is because my lowest rpm cell is 1000 rpms. This means for cranking advance the ECU is using the 15 and 20 (plus 12 each!!!) advance's for cranking depending on vacuum pulled. Thats 27 to 32 degrees timing when it is suggested that 4-12 degrees advance is best for cranking.

That also might explain why when I tried 1 squirt, the motor ran like crap and died. Too much advance. So i changed the 4 non boost 1000 rpm columns to 10 degrees (so 22 total) and I will see if that improves, I may drop it to zero (12 total).

I would like to get the car running on 1 squirt so I can use my injectors to their fullest potential. I can't afford to upgrade them to the injectors I want (1000cc high impedance = $100+ per injector). I have no interest in any low impedance injectors after researching these new high impedance injectors. These will idle better, and if you really want to, you can crank up fuel pressure and they will still make flow gains and not act erratically @ 150psi fuel pressure, unlike oldschool injectors that hate gaining flow over 60psi or so.

Here is what a local Honda God Cortney Green (2008 NHRA SFWD driver of the year) said.
"These new injectors are the exact same ones ran in the Bugati Veyron. They are 1000cc (98lb/hr) at 43psi and 1525cc (150lb/hr) at 100psi and are a saturated injector so you wont need a resistor box. These thing are the most amazing injector i have ever seen. The first car I tuned I almost couldnt believe it. Imagine a huge injector that runs like a small 28lb/hr injector but with even better atomization. Remember, better atomization means more power.

btw, I did say 100psi!!!"

On these injectors I could be happy making 200hp, or go crazy and supply well over 1000hp
E70 really cuts into my injector fun because it cuts their size down a lot.
I do have the fuel system to support massive fuel pressure if I need to cheat though. I still have my pumps cut down to 10-11 volts right now :D Thats one mod I am glad I did right.

On a side note, with 16 1000 cc injectors, the Veyron seems to have 2300hp worth of fuel injector at only 43psi. 3500+hp @ 100psi fuel pressure. HOLY CRAP They had no reason to bless us with these injectors yet they did :amen::amen::amen::amen:

Vigo

10-29-2009, 02:33 PM

Here is what a local Honda God Cortney Green (2008 NHRA SFWD driver of the year) said.
"These new injectors are the exact same ones ran in the Bugati Veyron. They are 1000cc (98lb/hr) at 43psi and 1525cc (150lb/hr) at 100psi and are a saturated injector so you wont need a resistor box. These thing are the most amazing injector i have ever seen.

....

On a side note, with 16 1000 cc injectors, the Veyron seems to have 2300hp worth of fuel injector at only 43psi. 3500+hp @ 100psi fuel pressure. HOLY CRAP They had no reason to bless us with these injectors yet they did

Holy Fack.

Your new mission in life is to NEED those injectors. Then you will automatically be 'k-car god' and people on honda forums will be quoting YOU. lol.

Aries_Turbo

10-29-2009, 08:51 PM

at 7000rpms, you have 2.857 milliseconds between ignition cycles. at 8000 rpms, its 2.5 ms.

hmmmm that means that the MS samples too slow to catch every event.

that means that i need to finish my knock box fully to be able to never miss an event. it will pull 4 samples between each ignition event on a v6 at 8000rpms. :)

im going to work on it this weekend.

Brian

Ondonti

10-30-2009, 07:52 PM

Sounds cool! Not sure if I was helpful at all though :P
I am guessing 10ms is like 1500 rpms :P:yuck:
And yes, me need those injectars!!!!!!!!!

Seems to me with an unknown sampling rate (presumably too slow) the MS could get very unlucky sometimes and never catch a knock, or get lucky and catch most of them.

Aries_Turbo

10-30-2009, 11:57 PM

right. it could get lucky. or you could get screwed.

1500 rpms is actually 13.3 ms. :)

yeah with the box that i am working on, it will tell you immediately that there is knock. it will report to the MS immediately as well and the only delay at that point will be when the MS gets to reading the line that was reported to by the external knock box. but the box will hold that line long enough that the MS wont miss the event. it may get in an inaudible click before it pulls timing though... well it would have to get an inaudible click past anyway to set the thing off in the first place. all knock systems do unless you set them too sensitive.

the only way for the MS to be fast enough to catch all and any knock events, is to set the knock detection scheme to use the timing interrupt. the MS has the speed to do so.

yeah those injectors are sick... :)

Brian

Ondonti

10-31-2009, 07:07 AM

well I am waiting for you to be the proud papa of a knock box. Failed so far to find a cheap sound amp. I will look at radioshack when I remember. I think it would be a very cool device, mostly for tuning other peoples cars with a little more confidence!

2 weeks ago i was sitting in a supercharged maxima messing with the emanage settings and then I started watching the wideband as we did a pull (not hooked up to the emanage at this point) and found out we had been racing some modified orange with white stripe 3 valve mustang. Made me want to get the tune right in the future. He still ran away after not being able to pull on us. I didnt know he was racing because he was a few cars behind the whole time.

Aries_Turbo

10-31-2009, 09:42 AM

yeah ill try to hurry up lol. this will be somewhat of a DIY deal. ill provide circuits and support and whatnot but i dont really have the time to make circuit boards and stuff..... at least right now. maybe frank can do that part cause he is part of this endeavor.

as far as headphones... you have a laptop? just run the knock sensor through a 50k potentiometer (so you can adjust the input volume so you dont overload the preamp) into the mic input and plug in a set of standard headphones.

Brian

Ondonti

10-31-2009, 03:59 PM

Well I was hoping for something that I can carry around and just throw into someones car for tuning.

Aries_Turbo

10-31-2009, 09:13 PM

i worked on it this afternoon. the RPM conversion into the microprocessor is working well. the knock circuit is responding to inputs but i now need to attach the whole thing to a board or something so i can put it in a car hooked to a knock sensor screwed in somewhere.

i still have to have frank make some changes to the code.

i made a booboo though. i had a rats nest of wires hooked up between a few breadboards and i sent 12v where it shouldnt have been. the processor seems to be hosed. i hope the FTDI USB interface isnt bad. if it is, ill have to buy a whole new board. i ordered a few new processor chips to see if that was the problem.

Brian

Frank

10-31-2009, 11:03 PM

Ya right now the knock board can check for knock approximately 2000 times a second. With some modifications to the way I handle the look up calculations, I would imagine that I can get it up to 2500 times or so.

Ondonti

10-31-2009, 11:34 PM

I bought a microphone at radioshack. Took it apart and attached the mic to a clamp that I can attach to the motor. I didnt quite directly attach it because its magnetic and the clamp is steel.

I have a little digital voice recorder that I can use to record, but I cant listen live. I cant figure out a program on my vista laptop that I can listen to the microphone live. Plugging into my laptop is okay. This way I don't have to hook into someones knock sensor.

Ideas on a program I can use to listen to myself/motor live?

Aries_Turbo

10-31-2009, 11:59 PM

hmmmm, ive always been able to hear the mic out of the speakers when i had it plugged in and made sure the mic wasnt muted in the volume control panel. that was with XP though.

on a side note....the program that i used to make the calibration tutorial vids let me record what was on the screen with audio overlayed. camstudio. its free. that would make a good audio tuning tool. record a datalogging program at the same time as recording the audio of the engine.

as for what you just asked.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Whisper-2000-Sound-Amplifier-Hearing-%2f-Interception-Aid_W0QQitemZ390106234576QQcmdZViewItem?rvr_id=&itemid=390106234576

http://www.householdgoods.com/whisper-two-thousand.html

http://www.theprotectionpros.com/home/tpp/page_190/super_high_gain_mic_sgu_pa3.html

http://www.allegromedical.com/daily-living-aids-c519/stealth-ssa-secret-sound-amplifier-p558018.html?engine=froogle&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=feed&CS_003=9164468&CS_010=ff8081811df2f762011e03236eb12b0e

http://www.nextag.com/hearing-amplifier/search-html

Ondonti

11-01-2009, 12:16 AM

Okay, the problem Dell's audio driver is made to disable input monitoring. They do this to avoid people complaining about feedback. Sad thing is I am not so retarded that I can't push the mic mute button :P

I just did some regedit but I have no idea what I really did. Added a "EnableInputMonitor" with value 0000 01 and now I am restarting :P
I hate vista.

Woot. worked :)

The mic is also taped up on the clamp (ill get pics uploaded). This means i cant really get it to register any sounds besides things that happen to the clamp (tap on clamp, open n' close clamp. I think this will help compared to the setup I saw where they allowed ambient sounds (exhaust etc) to "talk" to the mic. the best I can do is blow into the little gap in the clamp where there is no tape and it will register some noise :) I might plug that up too if I found it picking up stuff I don't want to hear. The external dump Wastegate will probably make a LOT of volume for it to pick up.

Vigo

11-03-2009, 10:10 PM

for general FYI to people interested in this:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=66863

probly any old mic and solder wires onto the stock board. maybe even dismount the one thats in there and just add wire. $15..

but with 20% off coupon, even less! :p

Aries_Turbo

11-03-2009, 10:54 PM

sweet. another option. :)

Ondonti

11-05-2009, 10:34 AM

Well the main bearing are replaced (for now :P ). Did something that would be very bad on a motor you care about....drilled out the oil return holes in the heads (6). Stock returns are NOT able to move the air ONE exhaust crankcase evac valve pulls on 2 valve covers, and still return oil to the pan at high rpms. BTW I did this with the heads on the motor but no no oil pan. Don't do this! I just don't care. :P :eyebrows:

Then I installed a baffle over my oil pan vent. I figured out why it would suck up so much oil :( One of the return holes exits right over the vent so oil would drop out of the head, get sucked up by the evac, and then go out the exhaust.

Also installed 1/8" of shims in the oil pump relief valve. That will prevent the valve from leaking off fluid prematurely (even at idle).
Copper RTV on the messed up PS pump.

Finished the Oil filter relocation kit. The tiny Mitsu filter had been rubbed a bit by the passenger axle so i decided enough was enough. The current filter is located at the lower corner of the frame rail and radiator crossmember. I like this location.

Get the car done and assuming the mains don't fail again, might go play with an Evo running 30psi on the same turbo I have (600 or more hp :P )
I will make sure to keep running 9psi and get my butt kicked!

Reaper1

11-05-2009, 12:17 PM

Finished the Oil filter relocation kit. The tiny Mitsu filter had been rubbed a bit by the passenger axle so i decided enough was enough. The current filter is located at the lower corner of the frame rail and radiator crossmember. I like this location.

Funny this is where you chose...it's the EXACT same spot as on Charlotte! LOL :thumb:

Get the car done and assuming the mains don't fail again, might go play with an Evo running 30psi on the same turbo I have (600 or more hp :P )
I will make sure to keep running 9psi and get my butt kicked!

Video MUST be taken and shared!! :D ;)

Aries_Turbo

11-05-2009, 04:52 PM

i sent 12v where it shouldnt have been. the processor seems to be hosed. i hope the FTDI USB interface isnt bad. if it is, ill have to buy a whole new board. i ordered a few new processor chips to see if that was the problem.

so i did smoke the processor but a replacement fixed it. back to testing. :)

Ondonti

11-06-2009, 06:50 AM

Excited to hear about progress. I will be leaving the country for a few months but I will still try to bug you.

I am really happy about the baffle that we made for the oil pan crankcase vent. I feel sorta stupid that I never thought about the oil return above possibly draining right into this hole. No wonder the car would fill with smoke at 6000 rpms. The baffle will also deflect oil leaving the crankshaft.

Also glad the oil returns are punched out a lot bigger in the head (regardless of the taboo I perpetrated to accomplish that). Ive probably got 60% more total flow area so hopefully I won't have oil building up in the heads at high rpms from the crankcase exhaust vent sucking up blowbye gasses.

Set timing belt, brackets/front&side mounts/starter etc (the stuff that sucks on a 3.0!!). Powersteering pump....hope the copper rtv holds. I REALLY REALLY REALLY didn't like boost + no power steering.

Fixed the oil dipstick which has given me a LOT of grief. The motor probably had 2 quarts too much oil in it because the dipstick tube was not seated into the block (sticking up 1"). I think the rods were dipping directly into the oil :(
Remarked the dipstick because it doesnt go down straight, but goes down diagonally right next to a rod. So now the correct full mark is 2-3mm above the low/fill mark.
So i was driving around with the oil about 2" above proper level...and I still starved it of oil with my darn exaust evac.
Tomorrow I need to finish up my improved oil/air separator and button up whatever is left. If the main bearings don't seize up again, car show Saturday.

Ondonti

11-06-2009, 06:56 AM

Funny this is where you chose...it's the EXACT same spot as on Charlotte! LOL :thumb:

Video MUST be taken and shared!! :D ;)

I just LOVE looking at the filter when I get under the car. :love:
Even though I just have a free fram ph8 on there right now :p
It looks very trick and is out of the way. I have a lot more space in front of the block compared to a chrysler block.

We will see about the Evo. The same owner put 10's of thousands into his srt-4 and couldn't get out of the 12's even with a maxed out 60 trim and a HEAVY dose of nitrous. I blame the guy who built it for him and the tune.

I thoght he was getting a gt42r for his Evo but I guess he decided to drop down to the Precision 6765 which will just make life tough for him vs me :P
He already has carbon fiber seats etc so its another big $ project and the car has been tuned by the guy who owns "the 4g63 shop"
he also has a Cosworth destroked 4g64 (2.3L) $$$ though I question the Cosworth name because they don't seem to sell such a thing. He isn't too good with that kinda stuff. Twin disc, AEM, lots and lots of goodies. Probably still has his nitrous somewhere.
Arge, me want awd NOW!

Ondonti

11-07-2009, 11:10 PM

2.216VTurbo

11-08-2009, 10:36 AM

Possibly little chunks of head material:p? By the tone of your last post it *almost* sounds like you are getting tired of constantly pulling the motor and patching it back together... Say it's not so:D

Directconnection

11-08-2009, 12:13 PM

crank seized up in about 5 minutes of run time so....it must be bent/cracked somewhere.

I have a good cast crank in the motor I blew up in the summer. not sure if I will swap cranks to this motor, or swap pistons/rods to the blown up motor. I don't really want to install a forged crank.
I guess I have a project for myself in the spring.

Do it right.... there's a reason things are not working out for you.

Swapping out tired parts into blown engines will only give you more grief. You need to measure things to a tee.... see if the crank is straight, journals round and taper-free.... polished correctly, main line in the block is straight and the main housing bores are still round and to size.

Vigo

11-08-2009, 10:07 PM

it *almost* sounds like you are getting tired of constantly pulling the motor and patching it back together...

Swapping out tired parts into blown engines will only give you more grief.

Well, a lot of people who are underemployed or cant find jobs have more time than money... whether they like it or not. ;)

A lot of people assume that just because your car has trapped ~120mph you can afford to fix it.. but when you trap 120 by swapping tired parts into blown motors thats not necessarily true.. heheh. I only wish i had those results to go with MY low expenditures.:hail:

Sometimes when your whole motor cost you almost nothing, anything becomes worth a try. Ask me how i broke a locked up engine loose with a bottle jack! :p

Directconnection

11-11-2009, 11:53 AM

Well, a lot of people who are underemployed or cant find jobs have more time than money... whether they like it or not. ;)

A lot of people assume that just because your car has trapped ~120mph you can afford to fix it.. but when you trap 120 by swapping tired parts into blown motors thats not necessarily true.. heheh. I only wish i had those results to go with MY low expenditures.:hail:

Sometimes when your whole motor cost you almost nothing, anything becomes worth a try. Ask me how i broke a locked up engine loose with a bottle jack! :p

If you don't have time to do it right the 1st time.... (or money) how will you find the time to do it right the 2nd time?

It doesn't cost much to look over parts carefully and measure components to see if they're within spec.

For example: If something spins a bearing....... DON'T frikkin' put in new bearings and call it good. A bearing spins for a reason. Failures don't magically appear, and then cure themselves.

If Brent were nearby.... I'd actually help him scope things out.

BTW: look at the title of this thread. Kinda like laughing in the face of the spun bearing Gods, right? Kinda expected? :thumb: Didn't think this thread was going to be the predecessor to the 9 second 190,000 build, did we? :eyebrows:

Vigo

11-11-2009, 09:34 PM

If you don't have time to do it right the 1st time.... (or money) how will you find the time to do it right the 2nd time?

graduate college and get a job? Brent prioritizes several things ahead of his car, and it doesn't owe him anything. He can break it, patch it, break it again, and hop in his spirit and go do something IMPORTANT when he needs to. The car is a guinea pig toy. If he says polishing and swapping in used bearings is something that has worked for 3kgt guys (~1000hp at times?) i would try it too. Id hate to spend $40 on bearings for a $90 motor just to have it lock up again in 5 minutes. The fact that it dyno'd 450 whp doesnt make it worth spending real money on:lol:. Finding out this way was cheaper. Plus im sure the bearings didnt spin or he wouldnt have even tried.. Just because they got hot enough to start welding up doesnt mean they spun.. yet. :p

As for me, i rebuilt my first motor, all the way through, the right way, when i was 16. Since then, ive realized what a waste it all is for me and ive gone through used motor after used motor with no regrets. Lots of us can find, buy, and swap in a used motor in a lot less time than it takes us to make the money to fix something 'right'. When that changes, so will we :)

So back to graduating college and getting a real job... :p

Ondonti

11-12-2009, 06:35 AM

If you don't have time to do it right the 1st time.... (or money) how will you find the time to do it right the 2nd time?

It doesn't cost much to look over parts carefully and measure components to see if they're within spec.

For example: If something spins a bearing....... DON'T frikkin' put in new bearings and call it good. A bearing spins for a reason. Failures don't magically appear, and then cure themselves.

If Brent were nearby.... I'd actually help him scope things out.

BTW: look at the title of this thread. Kinda like laughing in the face of the spun bearing Gods, right? Kinda expected? :thumb: Didn't think this thread was going to be the predecessor to the 9 second 190,000 build, did we? :eyebrows:

Not meaning to be a Prick about this but a plethora of 900hp cars have gotten away with this fix on Forged cranks. It was simply an issue of time to be spent. I was not planning on even fixing the car but a couple people wanted to take it to a car show. It seized up 30 minutes before check in.
It was an experiment which I consider failed. Forged cranks just flex in the middle and pound out the center mains. Apparently Cast cranks completely fail. Thats probably why it kept getting worse until it locked up. Forged motors just notice a drop in oil pressure from the screwed up lower center main bearings.

There are a lot of experiments going on here. Reusing composite headgaskets with the addition of a welding wire as a makeshift "o ring" that held for a 125mph pass, and then new attempts of using MLS gaslets with copper wire wrapped around the fire ring.
Using a mitsu block. Finally testing the theory of 3.0 ring gaps. I seem to have shown that the pistons are not incredibly weak, a proper ring gap and the crankshaft can be demolished with a bad tune :eyebrows:
Showing reversion really does hurt from the stock front manifold, and it causes cylinders 4 and 6 to blow first.
Running 10:1 pistons and finding that they are very turbo friendly.
While I could try all of this with new parts, then I wouldn't be very excited about pushing the envelope on my own dollar. On my own dime, yes. :thumb:
Plus if junk parts can handle something, then people have an idea of how far is too far.

I am in no man's land with the cast crank. The detonation crankflex that normally plagues Forged crank cars over 875awhp seems to have hit me around 600hp or less with the much weaker crank.
The first fix is to prevent the timing, but the damage was done about a month before megasquirt got running. Jacked up my oil pressure gauge so I couldnt really tell if the motor was sick.

My 2 bolt main girdle actually separated from the block, something that had only previously happened on a 2 bolt 770whp/750awtg car.
The forged cranks crack over time when making 900ish hp, but may take years to fail if ever. The Cast cranks, nobody knows. But my guess is that a cast crank crack will just progressively get worse regardless of how much power you make. A cracked forged could be turned down to 500hp and run forever. Cast, i doubt it.

For now I will probably just swap around some motor parts. I don't want to invest in a forged crank unless its a 3.8L 6g75.

Ondonti

11-12-2009, 07:13 AM

Megasquirt actually costs the same as ghetto fueling so thats another obvious choice for those looking for future projects. Full fuel and timing control so no more having massive timing at 10-20psi boost.

I stole the main bearings from the motor I blew up this summer and I found out to my surprised that the crank was good. I thought it had spun a bearing but I guess it was just some racket from 2 broken pistons. That crank is all ready to pop out and be inspected etc.
Not really wanting to go the extra mile and magnaflux it for cranks though. I sorta doubt that is in my budget.

Directconnection

11-12-2009, 01:53 PM

Brent.... borrow, steal, etc... a dial bore gauge to check your mains. Plastic gauge doesn't show out of round

Ondonti

11-12-2009, 02:27 PM

Vigo

11-12-2009, 08:52 PM

i would say micrometers or even calipers would do the job, which you could borrow or already own, for checking out of round easily in the car.

Did some 3.0 scoutwork of my own today, found out good things about belt routing 89 v. 93 v. 96, but i forgot the damn m90 again :p

Even though the car will be down for a while, keep up with any progress you make on megasquirt or knock boxes... inquiring minds on the forums want to know :)

Directconnection

11-16-2009, 08:21 PM

Well the original fix was meant to be "in car"

I have a bore gauge but its only 2-6" and I think the 2" piece is missing.
Wouldnt a micrometer be more helpful? I can just go take it to my favorite shop and have them check the crank real fast.

I do have concern that the mains are no longer round and my bore gauge is probably way too long for measuring that. Need those little bore gauges and some micrometers.

Advice on where to source some nice starrett stuff at a good price? I would probably only buy one for measuring rod journals and one for mains. aka a 1-2" and a 2-3".
This is something I ended up not buying in the past because I had my fav shop build my original forged piston shortblock which is still functional but sidelined due to its low compression pistons. I think the low compression prevened me from making enough hp/detonation to separate the main girdle from the block. I only ran 91+ LOTS of meth through that motor and this motor went bust on E70 and LOTS of meth.

Sorry I am just reading your reply now.

Mitutoyo is just as good as Starrett at a bit cheaper of a price. Only problem is that you'd be supporting the beast from the east.

Some local companies are out there to support the local machine shops, so you can buy used from them (and it's probably in decent shape) at a much lesser price than used. Or, go into a couple machine shops and ask someone if oen of the co-workers has a 1-2 and a 2-3" mic they'd be willing to sell. A lot of times, machinists have doubles as they picked up a used set from a retired guy years back, and have no use for these other ones. (that's how I got some of mine) I'd try this route... better results. Ebay should have some... but a mic is not a mic. Anything other than Starrett or Mitutoyo or crap. Brown and Sharp used to be good.... but I bought a new set of their telescoping gauges a few years ago and they were JUNK compared to the Starrett's I had been borrowing.

So, when you buy *used* you need to be careful of their condition. Does the barrel spin freely, and does the LOCK work real good (I'll explain why you need the lock in a bit) Most importantly.... are the anvils square to each other? This can cause measurement error because it will read differently if you measure in different spots of the mic's anvils (something not done on purpose mind you) Lastly... are the anvils worn? If measuring a lot of round objects over time, you may see an ever so slightly worn groove in the stationary anvil part (remember .0010 isn't much, but .0010" measurement error on your rod clearance is) Oh.... make sure they have carbide tips!

The Lock: The reason why the lock is important is because you need it when setting the dial bore gauge. When I was a real machinist a few years ago, you never used the lock. You went by your touch (or the ratcheting friction thimble on the end used for repeatability) and what it read... is what the measurement was. When you screw the mic (gently) onto the part being measured, the resistance of the part in question takes out the backlash in the mic's threads (same thing happens when you calibrate it, too) But if you are going to measure the housing bore of the rod.... you dial the mic to the # you need with the resistance of your finger slightly pushing against it's movable anvil. This takes out the backlash (usually just .0002-.0008 depending on how out of adjustment the threads are) While holding the resistance.... and dialing your #, you then lock it in place, and set your dial bore gauge to your mic. Make any sense?

But the way you check your clearance will be to simply mic the journal, and lock it. Transfer that to your dial bore gauge and measure the housing bore with bearings installed for your actual clearance.

I wouldn't recommend using the telescoping bore gauges as it takes a special touch to have them read accurately. I am considered to be REAL good with them, and can typically get them to read +/- .0002 to .0003" but that can also lead to too much, or too little clearance if you're on the high or low of the spec. Besides.... dial bore gauges read so much easier, quicker, and you can see taper and out of roundness much easier.

There is a used tool supply shp her ein Maine that has TONS of old starrett tools. They buy out estates for the antiques, and often come across an old man's shop that was used for woodworking, or he may have been a machinist back in the 1940s. 75% of my tools have come from this place for a fraction of the price. $55 for a Mitutoyo MINT 3-piece mic set. 0-1, 1-2, and 2-3" set with case. 0-1" Brown and Sharp mic for like $8 (needed a good cleaning)

If I am to go there again in the coming weeks.... let me know what you want. But be warned... rarely do they have dial bore gauges.

Ondonti

01-19-2010, 09:25 AM

I think 1-4" micrometers would work. I have a starret 1" but I never have been sure how to tell if I have it zero'd in properly.
Then simple plain bore gauges for the Main bearings. I might be able to fit my dial bore gauge in the mains but I think its way way way to long so it really wouldnt fit between the mains.

I will be honest that I didnt read that all yet because I don't have room in my head at the moment with how far I am from my cars right now :p
I didnt realize there were responses here.

I would like to get the car running, mess with the megasquirt more. Get my AWD project somewhere...then I may move my 12v stuff into my Daily Driver and look for a 3.8L Mivec motor. I have always wanted to build another 12 valve turbo kit so my 3.0 Spirit Daily could be turbo'd again but since I want a 3.8L it seems silly to build a turbo kit that I would end up doing away with.
I want to build nasty 12 valve tubular headers and change my intake manifold runner diameter but realistically Those are not super important things when I already make great power and plan on changing motors in the future anyways. I honestly don't see the intelligence in spending a thousand or 2 dollars to gain a bit more hp on the 3.0 if I am just going to swap the parts into my daily because obviously the daily driver will NEVER use those parts to their potential.
While I am a 12 valve nut, and have no interest in a DOHC motor, the 24v SOHC 3.8L Mivec will do 360cfms on stock valves, and probably much more with oversize, has a cylinder head that can probably deal with a HUGE over bore (4.0-4.1L???), has a crankshaft that can handle 2000whp, 4 bolt mains (no need to upgrade my 2 bolt 12valve block with ARP Main studs), and sexy Variable Intake Cam profiles :). So I can run a CRAZY cam profile but still be very drivable and economic when I want it to be.

I think real HP advantage of the DOHC vs 12 valve is little. Just the fact that DOHC will always have a wider powerband in a Road Racing type situations because it will require a less aggressive camshaft. I can always cam my 2 valve to make up for most of the differences, just lose low end drivability. We also have solid rockers coming and nice valvetrain parts. Most likely the 12 valve will be able to rev higher then the 24v before top end failure :eyebrows:

But the mivec is just soooo sexy. Especially when I can mate it up to our chrysler AWD system. Then someday swap to a built 4 speed auto when money grows on trees.

Reaper1

01-22-2010, 11:19 PM

Brent, LMK when that money on trees thing happens! I need some of that action! LOL

Vigo

01-23-2010, 01:17 AM

Then someday swap to a built 4 speed auto when money grows on trees.

Dont pay for a 3.0/604 core.. i got one here waiting for you to get around to it. :)

Ondonti

03-10-2010, 03:53 AM

The last video here is one I seem to have forgotten to post. Stupid of me because the whole point of this thread was the 10:1 motor.
The motor was still being put together the night before the dyno day, which also happened to be the last night of racing for the year so I missed that :(
I did win the dyno day even on only 4 cylinders. 2nd and 3rd place were cars owned by the shop. :clap:

History...
Old Setup
24 pounds of boost on the street, dyno'd 500+ on 20psi. 5 minutes late to tech inspection so never got to run this tune at the track :(
http://www.streetfire.net/video/516whp-519ftlb-Plymouth_637493.htm
Illegal digital streetrace with #4 plug wire off, oops.
http://www.streetfire.net/video/400whp-6g72-Galant-vs-The_205383.htm
13psi and collapsed fuel filter = massive leanout, oh well, still raced (preplanned digital race).
http://www.streetfire.net/video/SR20vet-Sentra-vs-6g72_197806.htm

Stock 1997 Caravan motor
11.9@117 on first pass, 16psi. Converted to E70 fuel
http://www.streetfire.net/video/90-Junkyard-Runs-11s-on_649313.htm
24psi street tune pulls. Stock headgaskets leak and push coolant. Lack of traction gives false impression that the fuel pump is able to handle a 1/4 mile pass.
http://www.streetfire.net/video/Dusters-90-Junkyard-Motor_681676.htm
11.5@125 22psi. Fuel pump is not able to keep up with E70 and high fuel pressure. Leans out on both passes at the top end. Stock ring gaps are too small and rings butt destroying 2 ringlands on 2nd pass. Slicks at the track show the weakness of street tuning with traction problems.
http://www.streetfire.net/video/The-Junkyards-90-Motor_687191.htm

190,000 mile 10:1 motor with heads/cams from built motor.
http://www.streetfire.net/video/The-Junkyards-new-Junk_701799.htm

New Fuel system (seen in this thread) Twin external Walbros, twin feed lines. No more fuel pump problems.
10:1 motor does NOT like OEM 3.0 timing even with E70 fuel. Blows out TWO O rings and still makes 446whp on 4 good cylinders, 18 pounds of boost, and 10.5:1 air fuel ratio. The rich situation actually is the reason the first dyno pull does not record because the motor bogged and made less then 50whp (automatically stops the dyno from recording). Guessing HP on the first pull was 550-600 but no way to tell. Obviously not a safe tune! The crankshaft also cracked but does not seize up until after installing megasquirt.
The whole video is filmed on 225/50r15 BFG drag radials which I do not feel are safe when spinning 3rd. They grab and let go over and over which causes the car to dodge side to side. I prefer normal tires which don't grab so hard while spinning.
http://www.streetfire.net/video/101-Junkyard-destroys-and_709639.htm

I have videos of Megasquirt starting and maybe one of it driving but we are not sure where they are since a computer that had the files is currently down. I will see if I can get those. I was reallly excited for MS to start on my first attempt, but not excited that we broke the crankshaft on the dyno weeks before while still using n/a Electronics.

The one good thing about Megasquirt is that my cams are no longer advanced 4 degrees to help low rpm HP so top end power should now shine even more. 9 pounds on Megasquirt with zero'd cams feels like 15 pounds with the stock ECU and advanced cams (equal wheelspin in 3rd).

black86glhs

03-10-2010, 04:51 PM

Brent, I thought the gaps would have been too small to make them push together and break a ring land?

Ondonti

03-10-2010, 08:39 PM

Too small? When I took apart my 10:1 motor to regap the rings, one of the top rings was as small as .012" while another was .019" or so.
The .019 would probably take considerable amounts of power, but the .019" cylinder would defintily be the first to fail if it ever got hot and saw a little detonation.
Also, 8.9:1 compression = more heat so you need even bigger gaps for the same boost level. It also means you need less spark advance to avoid detonation combining together with butting ringlands.

the problem is that factory tolerances on the rings are really sloppy.
Ed kelly has pointed out that he prefers a higher quality set of rings but I feel at the minimum, regapping the rings is a good idea for durability. Regapping seems to turn a 400whp timebomb into a 400whp warrior and capable of making much more HP with a good tune.
The regapped 10:1 motor cracked the crankshaft instead of blowing a ringland. Meaning that if I take detonation with megasquirt (use proper ignition timing) that a regapped 3.0 can handle a lot of power reliably.

Vigo

03-10-2010, 10:17 PM

Brent, i witnessed the drag radial issue in another short wheelbase fwd, an overpowered festiva. The way they would let go one side at a time made the thing practically a deathtrap.

Good to see all your videos in one place. I have been following the build for years now but even i have a hard time keeping the info and sequence of the videos right.

black86glhs

03-10-2010, 11:41 PM

Ondonti

03-11-2010, 12:47 AM

Bryan, fixed the typo.

Adam, well I have a lot of old videos on streetfire running 13's and 12's but they are not very interesting as every single 13 second run had a slipping clutch and I never posted up my 114mph 12 second run because it blew out a freeze plug that was improperly installed (big cloud of steam at the top end of the track). That video was hilarious because the announcer had time to say "go man go' between 1st and 2nd gear. Terrible driving on my part.
That is when I learned that even if I had decent power, bad driving would ruin track results. At the time I didnt know how much I could hold the car back by being a bad driver. I made my inbetween gear bogs worse by shifting very slowly. I shifted my n/a 3.0 quite well but the turbo car causes more anxiety.

For my Stock motor 11's, I powershifted (had been practicing in my 3.0 spirit) and had a HUGE results difference. Still my shifts could be quicker. There are people who lift shift and probably shift in half the time I do when powershifting. :mad:

No money at all right now and I have to get some scholastic things done before I can have anymore fun.

black86glhs

03-11-2010, 01:20 AM

Even if your driving is bad, still nice times on a stock 3.0 engine. I say nice work. :clap:

Vigo

03-11-2010, 11:30 AM

At the time I didnt know how much I could hold the car back by being a bad driver.

I had a pretty rude awakening when i raced the Aries at GRM. Oddly enough, the first time i drag raced that car was AT the GRM event. I could only manage a 14.5, when the car felt like a low 13 car. I trapped 98 mph with 6 psi in 1st and 2nd gears and a 100F heat index. I've seen other TD's run 13.1 on 98, not to mention the fact that if i could run 17 psi in EVERY gear when its less than 100 degrees out, i might trap over 100. Poop!

Even when i get slicks, im sure there will be some learning curve involved! Luckily i have not really broken anything substantial yet.

thedon809

03-11-2010, 09:02 PM

For my Stock motor 11's, I powershifted (had been practicing in my 3.0 spirit) and had a HUGE results difference. Still my shifts could be quicker. There are people who lift shift and probably shift in half the time I do when powershifting. :mad:Automatic outta fix that up easy.:nod:

Ondonti

03-11-2010, 09:58 PM

Automatic outta fix that up easy.:nod:

Haha, I get that a lot. Might as well keep working on the driving now and dream about a fancy auto when I sleep :)

At the track I don't have terrible traction problems. There are things I can improve mechanically to help the 60' and weight transfer on launch and shifts but most of the lost time is in a slow shift.
My car squats a lot even with air shocks in the back and I am pretty sure its because of the air shocks lifting the car off the springs. had 2 different attempts at limiting straps fail (meant to be easily disconnected with minimum installation effort, but that just equaled easily breakable).
I seriously doubt financial ability to finish AWDing the car but even if I did I would be pulling the driveshaft in order to keep getting FWD times (at least in theory).

The high 10 second honda I race in my last video makes similar power/weight but just drives much better (and he has more experience).

Ondonti

06-28-2010, 04:08 PM

Crankshaft from the 11.54@125 motor, bearings from the junkyard. Swapped 2 good rods onto my 10:1 pistons because it was cheaper then resizing.

Not only does the block have 190,000 miles, I found out that the previous owner put dirt into the radiator. One of the coolant drain plugs was completely blocked. Over a cup of dirt came out of the block. Never noticed this before because I didn't try to drain the block by removing the block plugs the first time I went through the motor for regapping.
Chipped the bottom of the skirt off piston number 6 when the crank bent. Don't really care to worry about it.

Used Felpro composite headgaskets because I didn't feel like trying something interesting or dealing with leaks, or paying for MLS.

Only money into this build =
$15 two rods swapped
37$ two headgaskets
8$ 1G DSM headbolts from junkyard to use for Main Girdle bolts
Bearings pocked from a motor someone had already torn apart/ruined.
$28 freaking dollars for oil pump gaskets. I bought the last 2 in the western US and had them express shipped (bribe them 9 dollars to put it on the dealer delivery the day I called instead of 3 days after I called).

The DSM headbolts that I installed in the mains are torqued at 80ft/lb. My last crankshaft bent when the stock bolts stretched and the girdle flexed in the middle allowing the crankshaft to bend way more then normally possible.
The DSM headbolts are about 3mm longer and get a lot more thread engagement plus they are probably a much better material. 1G headstuds are not TTY and tend to be better then the standard ARPs.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_6180.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_6181.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_6183.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_6185.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_6187.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_6192.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_6195.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_6196.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_6199.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/E85%20Stock%203L/IMG_6200.jpg

Ondonti

06-28-2010, 04:28 PM

I also completely rewired the car using my own fuse blocks and relays. No more chrycrap ECU.

This is an early picture of my main relay/fuse board. Drivers side. I added another switched power fuse block behind the center of the dash for my Megasquirt/boost controller/zeitronix/tach.

Biggest problem with the car right now is the PC680 battery that I can't afford to replace is pretty much nuked from the stock wiring draining it for the last 2 years (and constantly finding it way below 10v.

I still have a lot of cleanup and loom work to do. I was cleaning up the wires near the main board and then after working on that I had to just throw the car/wires together so I could make the car show this last weekend.

I managed to wire the fan backwards and freaked out when it started overheating on a slow road when I had the fan on. Oops.

I Want an Fidle circuit (also used for rad van relay) for my Megasquirt II so I don't have to use a switch. Its been 8 months and I don't really remember where I am at with megasquirt and don't feel like working on the tune right now. Sucking fuel like crazy and some of the settings seem wrong. I have not touched anything on the megasquirt because I just wanted to get to the show. I did hit 8000 or so rpms accidentally when I found out my shifter was not adjusted properly. I have had that happen quite a few times before so i am good about getting the clutch back in before the motor spins up completely. I get bad shifting habits from my Spirit because it has auto trans seats that have armrests that make it impossible to make "normal" shifts with thanks to the existence of your elbow. Been 8 months since I have driven this car.

EGO (AFR) correction is on above 2200 rpms (not sure why its set that way) and the car does super annoying surging above 2200 rpms when not WOT (even at 99% throttle it surges). For some reason its running super rich so EGO make it bounce between 11:1 and 17:1 as it overcorrects from what it sees as being way too rich for the AFR map I built.

I swore the EGO correction was on for all RPMs above idle and I don't remember it being so rich so I don't know if the required fuel settings (injector sizing etc) are messed up.

I have an "updated" tune/settings that I did in November but I never loaded it because the crankshaft seized. Now I don't remember what i had changed, what I thought might have been set incorrectly before, etc. I know I changed the megatune settings to allow autotune to function at all rpms/load levels. I messed with timing at low rpms and I don't remember my reasoning. Lot of other issues too. Now that the car is running I really need to deal with other things though. Still not spending time on any forums.

Grand National guy who knows me from the track wants to see me out there again but I don't really want to tune the car right now.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Megasquirt/Wiring/IMG_6149.jpg?t=1277756703

shackwrrr

06-28-2010, 05:32 PM

WOOHOO. nice to see you fixing it up. I think your build is awesome and when I get out of college I am looking for a 3.0 car to build like this. I want to see what this thing can do with all the fuel it can get.

what progam do you use for megasquirt? Tunerstudio has an awesome autotune so you could get your <100% throttle tuned in. On your EGO feedback it sounds like a simple settings problem that could be fixed easily. Do you think you could send me your msq? I would love to take a look at it and have a setup for when I find a 3.0 car.

Well I see its changed since I was last on TS now you have to pay to get VE analyze live:(.

On the EGO try to lower the controller step size and lower your ignition step interval. Do you have it set to simple or pid control?

Ondonti

06-28-2010, 05:43 PM

I think its on simple and 6 events but I have not actually looked at what is loaded on the ecu. I have different msq's on my laptop and not sure how that compares to the one on the ecu.
I didn't bring the laptop to the car show and didn't want to mess with it.

I don't even think the ecu type is set correctly lol. I swear its set to microsquirt.
When I get the MSQ sorted out then I can share it (at least pull the one off the ecu and save it).

I figured out how to make a car profile only after the crank seized up last year so things are all sorts of messed up.

turbovanman²

06-28-2010, 05:54 PM

About time you got it running again, :thumb:

Where are the carnage pics, :eyebrows:

shackwrrr

06-28-2010, 07:23 PM

sorry its been a while since I read up on the MS stuff. You need to make your ignition events per step higher to make the EGO correction more stable. Try setting it between 25-30.

Reaper1

06-28-2010, 09:54 PM

bakes

06-28-2010, 11:24 PM

Bent you setting any goals this year?

Ondonti

06-29-2010, 01:38 AM

Oil Pump gaskets for the mitusbishi version block. I don't actually know if the diamante block is different for the oil pump then the 3000gt sohc 12 valve.

I just spun a bearing (pretty sure). I think the oil pump has not been supplying much oil at all. My mechanical gauge got messed up last fall when I was doing something with the interior and it may have been indicating 5 or less psi oil pressure. My idiot light was not going off tonight when I went for the drive but it flashed the first day I started it.

The Gauge has been reading 50 psi or so when "off" and after the motor warms up (runs 25psi or so when cold on 10w30) it ran super low on oil pressure at least if I assumed 50 was zero. Like 53!

The pump is 183 dollars and I don't know how much I like the idea of investing in a new one. The oil pump had 190,000 miles on it and well, its supposed to be replaced at 120k.

The thing that pisses me off is that I want to use this block because of the knock sensor on the block, but its more expensive and requires remote oil filter.

I changed the EGO correction to 10% from 30% (stopped surging so much, but I set it to 1 ignition event per change so I went the wrong direction there for smoothness), turned on automatic mixture control, and just went for a drive. It fixed up my values pretty good. I set it really aggressively so it changed my non boosted VE stuff between 1000-2000 rpms a lot. Took out fuel all over the place.
My required fuel was too low, i thought I was running 60psi fuel pressure but it was actually 50.

No Goals this year. I pretty much already met my goals by rewiring the whole car. I don't care about times at the track right now or dyno numbers.
The project I would like to do next WITH a running motor is AWD. I want to do some intake manifold and exhaust manifold stuff but I don't really have a good reason too besides "i want to"

Ondonti

06-29-2010, 01:46 AM

10 minute drive. Spun bearing doing a for fun 3rd gear pull and drove home.
Things only changed out of boost and below 3500 rpms.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Megasquirt/Tables/VEComparisonafterspinningRodonMulle.jpg?t=12777902 67

Side note. My Gvr4 friend says that the dirt in my block is dexcool mixed with glycol.

shackwrrr

06-29-2010, 02:38 AM

Time for a complete new shortblock from the JY I would think. I think v6's are only 120 bucks here and the dodge section is over 65% 3.0 cars. I am thinking that your rods are oversized on the big end or just plain messed up from all the abuse you put them through.

If you weren't on the other side of the country I would hook you up with some free machine work for all the "testing" you have done to the 3.0 platform.

shackwrrr

06-29-2010, 02:52 AM

OOOOOOOOR

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/3000GT-Stealth-ALL-6-VR4-Twin-Turbo-PISTONS-RODS-92-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem27b2d38906QQitemZ17050 3932166QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries

Ondonti

06-29-2010, 03:40 PM

Right now I want to stick to 10:1 compression. Its been tested out before by others who were running very fast "on the cheap"

New oil pump costs more then a junkyard block and if the block needs align boring etc then its completely not worth it.
Not sure what to look for in a new oil pressure gauge. I just used one that came with the car and it worked for a couple years until now.

BF/STOCKER SPIRIT

06-29-2010, 03:48 PM

Wow neato!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ondonti

06-29-2010, 04:06 PM

http://www.summitracing.com/parts.aspx?sku=SUM-G2985

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/norm/sum-g2985_m.jpg

Thinking of something like this. Then buy the $12.95 sending unit
On a side note. I actually added a washer to the oil pump relief to help keep it from leaking at idle.
Very possible some of those rods were oversized even though they didnt spin on the last motor. The bent crank didnt run very long. I should have replaced all the rods or at least had them inspected.

Ondonti

06-29-2010, 05:39 PM

Removed the oil cap and everything in the top end looks very dry so I am leaning on the oil pump gears being damaged. They sometimes fracture or even shatter when rev'd higher then normal and are in poor condition (loose fitting over the crankshaft, etc). That is my super lazy diagnosis for now :D

Going to miss the car again. Got 3rd gear spinning even though the AFR bogged into the low 10's.

Simon, there were no good carnage pictures. I couldnt tell the crankshaft was bent until I placed it into a bare girdle that was sitting on jackstands and tried to turn the crank. it would lock up every half turn.

But the carnage picture idea reminds me. Bent crankshaft, oil pump gears fit over the crankshaft. FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe I had some carnage pictures I didn't know about :eyebrows:

And I just thought of the Goal thing again. I would like to see if i can run an 11.99 on 9 pounds of boost (current wastegate minimum pressure on my 1 bar Tial spring combined with my HDI boost controller). I am not one of the rich guys who can drive their turbo vette down the track at 135+mph and not get booted for no cage, even though FWD is much safer down the 1320.

I have a good block that I stole the crankshaft from. No bearings. Not sure how bad this previously good crank is.
Or junkyard block and do a piston swap on the rods.

bakes

06-30-2010, 12:12 AM

I see where your going with the bent crank taking out the oil pump it wouldn't have cross my mind it was taking it out.

Ondonti

06-30-2010, 01:03 AM

We usually only break oil pump gears when they fit loosely on the crank and spin 8000-9000+ rpms with very strong accelleration (big hp cars). The gear tends to vibrate in that situation and fracture or shatter. A lot of those seem to be traced to a poor batch of oil pumps that had loose fitting gears. Toga brand pumps have a metal shim in the gear that we think is used to tighten up tolerances without doing a killer job on cutting the gear.
They have billet gears made by a few people now. First person to abuse one of those (from a certain vendor) had it get out of wack after a season of 9 and 8 second passes and 1000+hp dynos. Funny thing is the maker of that gear uses dry sump. Another guys gears I have no heard any bad things about but its about 400 bucks just for the gears and only in batches.
Its easy to think of now but I really didnt think about the total effects of a bent crankshaft.

Force Fed Mopar

06-30-2010, 10:35 AM

I think you need to completely rebuild the engine properly, have the block honed, decked, align honed, head re-done, etc. That way you shouldn't be having to yank it out every other time you run it :thumb: Have you been following the solid rocker thread? We about have the springs figured out :hail: unfortunately it will require some machining if you want upgraded springs. Ed thinks the 3.3 springs will drop in w/o machining though.

turbovanman²

06-30-2010, 04:57 PM

On a side note. I actually added a washer to the oil pump relief to help keep it from leaking at idle.

Won't do anything except raise your max oil pressure. At idle, the pump isn't spinning fast enough to need the relief valve, :D

At this point, that's alot of work, :(

Ondonti

06-30-2010, 05:11 PM

Won't do anything except raise your max oil pressure. At idle, the pump isn't spinning fast enough to need the relief valve, :D

Our relief valve tends to leak at idle. Its not the type that just opens up all of a sudden. It just slowly leaks more and more as pressure rises.
Ive seen the washers add 10+psi at idle.
No money to "rebuild" so its not gonna happen. It would have done me no good this time since it was my mistake of not checking the oil pump out. Would have been a much more expensive mistake. Crank bending is very rare so its not something that I have ever seen discussed (oil pump damage from crank bending).

I don't have any interest in 3.3 springs if they can't even support the lift of my cam. To me, that's much ado about nothing. Would rather have something that gives us a reason to even bother with the solid rockers.

Ondonti

08-14-2010, 02:17 AM

Got a new (150,000 mile) pump for 13 dollars. Measured the old pump. end to end clearances (to the case) were double the service limit lol! I thought the gears were broken but I guess the bent crankshaft just chewed up the housing.

Roommate gave me some nice autometer oil gauges that were meant for his 5.0 pickup. :) The broken gauge I have didn't find its way into the garbage. I am too cheap to let it go yet :(

Ondonti

08-14-2010, 02:38 AM

Damage to the motor. 1 broken lifter, 1 collapsed, 1 half pumped. Also some big damage on my Ferrea valves (got them fixed but the heads are on the shelf right now while we all work on the beehive valvespring upgrades).
Spun rod bearing. The oil filter relief valve also opened up and I had bearing material in everything.

Replaced the rod, and used a Hyundai sonata oil pump which is similar to the mitsubishi block pump. Put 1 washer into the relief valve. Polished the Rod journal. Crank is beyond service limits on that journal, but who cares lol!!!! Measured another set of junkyard bearings. Put the largest bearings on the bad journal. 20-50 oil with some Lucas. Getting 25+ psi hot idle oil pressure right now. Much better then 2 psi.

Pulled the 190,000 mile diamante heads out of storage. Converted them to solid rockers. Here is my junk cylinder head where I was doing measurements.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/3L%20Technical/Valvetrain/IMG_6254.jpg?t=1281767047

First 3.0 running solid rockers.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/3L%20Technical/Valvetrain/IMG_6274.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/3L%20Technical/Valvetrain/IMG_6275.jpg

The solid rockers are a 1.5:1 ratio and we think the stockers are actually 1.6:1 though I still have not measured them on my junk head.
So my 216 degree cams were acting like 230 degree @ .050" before, and now they are back to the 216 that my cam grinder thought when he assumed 1.5:1.
So eventually I would like to go with a 240 degree cam with .500-.550" lift. The solid rockers prefer a regrind because they are a smaller angle then the stock rockers and a regrind brings you closer to OEM geometry.

I went to the track last week,but after doing an accidental 7000 rpm burnout, I accidentally did a 7000 rpm clutch dump on a non saginaw passenger axle. I used to launch on the 6200 rpm stock limiter and I was very wrong when I thought I could easily control RPMs without practicing even once. I didn't mean to drop the clutch so hard but I was distracted by thoughts about the excessive rpms. Boom went the axle.

Got a Saginaw in there and just upgraded to Megasquirt II extra and wired in the launch control circuit :)

Now I can launch and pay attention to the clutch. Running 8 pounds of boost right now and looking for a low 12 E.T. at maybe 115mph or so. I have not tune my VE tables at all and its super rich. I turned my high boost setting to 11 psi and it went 10.0:1 AFR. 8 pounds is around 10.8 right now.

8 pounds gets 3rd gear loose right now and I hope it gets a little more tire spin when I lean out the AFR. The timing map is very aggressive but I feel comfortable since I know how far I was able to take stock timing on a 10:1 motor. Alky system is not turned on.

I don't know if I will get much in the way of tuning or track passes this year. I didn't have time for the car earlier and I am leaving the country for 2 months or so in Sept.

Really excited to get my built head back on this 10:1 motor with beehive springs and maybe the huge cam I want. My big beef with the 190,000 mile head is that the valve springs are weak and I want to rev over 8000 rpms right now :(

Ondonti

08-14-2010, 02:48 AM

I spent about 25 dollars plus oil/filter cost for the above repairs AND upgrades/downgrades.That is why I did it cheap. 25 dollars is the kind of budget I have right now :P

I copper sprayed the used Felpro composite head gaskets.

The only thing I am worried about is the rod journal. Its really just a matter of avoiding swapping in another crank. I have about 3-4 hours of run time now. Driving tomorrow to a 3000gt meet where some TD guys are also going. 50 miles each way plus we are going on a canyon cruise.
One advantage of solid rockers is that they increase my oil pressure. No oil squirters/lifters.

I also chopped off the stupid mitsubishi oil filter flange (filter was hitting axle) and threaded in some barbs so I could finally use my oil filter relocation kit. Didn't work with the tiny mitsu flange.

Really happy about that. Reapers mitsu block 3.0 beast has a relocation kit because of this same issue but I don't know how his is hooked up.

Aries_Turbo

08-14-2010, 07:40 AM

cool, what are the rockers out of?

shackwrrr

08-14-2010, 11:18 AM

nice rockers. I dont know why people claim they will be noisy and have to be adjusted all the time. I owned a suzuki 16valve that has solid rockers like that and it was the quietest engine Ive ever head. It had a nice smoothe power band too.

Force Fed Mopar

08-14-2010, 02:53 PM

cool, what are the rockers out of?

4G15 engine, we have a development thread about this on BM :) Brent is being the guinea pig, or will be if he doesn't explode another engine first :D So far they seem to be good, he set his at .004 int/.005 exh I think, kinda tight IMO but he said they were noisy at .008/.010, so....

Aries_Turbo

08-14-2010, 05:09 PM

cool, ill check it out.

Vigo

08-14-2010, 10:39 PM

Glad to hear its running again.

Hey if you wanna swap your awd caravan rear drivetrain for two 3.0 motors im down, meet me halfway tho :p

Reaper1

08-15-2010, 09:37 AM

Cool! I have some pics on my cell phone of a solid lifter/rocker head that I took at a machine shop a while ago when the idea first came up. The only thing I think I remember about them that is didn't like was they were slider instead of roller follower. I'm sure a way can be found around that, though.

Force Fed Mopar

08-15-2010, 12:38 PM

Ondonti

08-15-2010, 06:07 PM

I actually found a bunch of rocker options out there in the junkyard. The rockers that I took are not the same ones that other people had found. I got the 91-99ish rollers and the older ones are a big different. There are also NEW style hydraulic rockers.

The slider hydraulic rockers are only a 1.3:1 ratio, the Solid Rollers are 1.5:1. We think our stockers are 1.6:1 or so but I have not measured the actual lift ratio cause I am lazy.

My problem right now is I think they need a tiny oil squirt hole drilled in them. Not sure how to drill a hole that small. Squeaking sounds from the motor and the cylinder head shop here say the valve guides may get worn out very quickly at the least and valve stem discoloration/damage etc at the worst. No more oil supply to the valve stem tip.

This is why I am glad to be using a old stock head right now.

100 miles on it yesterday going to a bbq/Meet.

shackwrrr

08-15-2010, 09:53 PM

http://www.harborfreight.com/30-piece-hss-mini-drill-set-94606.html

Ondonti

08-16-2010, 03:30 AM

I think it might need to be much smaller then that. I don't want to bleed off too much oil pressure. Started Googling and I just remembered I have a 1000 page catalog for bits etc in my storage unit. :)
#80 seems to be the smallest I can find on google. about .349mm
Err I found a .2mm bit :) But i don't know what kind of hell that would be to drill the holes.
One .5mm hole will flow as much as ~6 .2mm holes. But I don't know if its really possible to drill a .2mm hole into the rocker in less then 5 years :confused:

If I drill a hole I think it will be just below the arm, aimed up towards the tip of the arm, and hopefully get something on the valve stem tip.

BTW, I have heard that mechanics never bother to adjust these rockers on the 1.5L motors so I don't think they are a high maintenance item.

bakes

08-16-2010, 10:46 AM

Bent before drilling make sure you got the rocker shaft in the right way.i made that mistake 15 years ago.

I would drill them under the arm so they are spraying the valve stem.

Ondonti

08-16-2010, 06:12 PM

Haha I have done the rocker shaft wrong before too, seized a cam in a few hundred yards after warming up the engine. I leave one end on the rocker shaft tubes so I don't have to worry about getting it right.

If I do then someone on BM had the idea to drill a larger hole, silver solder the hole, then redrill with a fine drill bit. Apparently some people do that with carb jets.

Force Fed says the OEM just relies on oil spash so I will just keep running these heads and see how they end up. I think bigger lift = bigger problem. The squeak is as loud and annoying as a squeaking throw out bearing. It doesn't always happen though.

Our heads sit at a 30 degree angle each so maybe the intake side is less happy then the exhaust side since the rocker and valve stem tip sit above everything else and probably get less splash.

Reaper1

08-16-2010, 09:11 PM

So which engine did you rob the rockers from, Brent?

Ondonti

08-17-2010, 06:55 PM

1.5L 12 valve mitsu from 91-99, read teh posts :P
Take the drivers side intake rocker. Requires 3 engines being stripped.

A little pissed at megasquirt. 100 mile drive and my on the fly VE tuning was not working. A little confused about a few things since I made the huge jump from 2.888 MSII to 3.03 MSII/Extra.
Old version wideband settings didn't work properly so you had to manually enter stuff. Now I am not sure what works and what doesnt. My project was set to narrowband even though the wideband is functioning and talking to tunerstudio. The old setting required that because the firmware was broken for that.

This is the stuff that sucks about megasquirt. The bugs. You get used to 1 bug, and then when they sorta fix it, they don't explain what they did.

Reaper1

08-18-2010, 02:05 PM

Thanks for the refresher, Brent! ;)

Ondonti

08-25-2010, 10:03 AM

After popping in the 2nd axle she has eaten in 2 attempted passes, it was time for something on the street that would not blow an axle :P

Note that I am riding the limiter (7000 rpms right now) very hard :P
Motor seems to have no complaints. It does drop oil pressure after a run like this (crappy thick dino oil because of the loose rod journal).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbycEIWcR6g

Vigo

08-25-2010, 09:49 PM

Looking good.. except i dont think that was 140. Unless your tach was off.

Ondonti

08-26-2010, 04:27 AM

Well I just realized I read the tach wrong lol, tach is dead nuts on (works amazing since I grounded it to the same spot as megasquirt). More like 125. The car getting squirrely screws up the video at the end but it seems more like 6000 rpms.
Video is 15 seconds long.

Old Videos of the 7.0:1 compression motor running 10 pounds and the cams advanced 4 degrees. That motor gained huge power on the next 8-10 pounds of boost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Chvr100AoI0
http://www.streetfire.net/video/t67-turbo-30-sohc-6g72-duster-burnouts-0120mph_191891.htm

0-120 pull in the 2nd video is more like 116mph because the tires were at 2/32.
14 seconds long.
So not a huge difference.

Making me rethink what it will trap at the track. 117mph on 16 pounds on a bone stock 8.9:1 motor and stock ecu. So the 10:1 with cams and 11 pounds will probably fall short of that even on Megasquirt. I would like to find out. Maybe 115 mph.
We have a local crx doing 137mph on 16 pounds :hail:
I need 350z exhaust manifolds and the t4 housing with the ported heads back on. I would love 120mph on 10 pounds.

Irocelectric93

08-29-2010, 12:42 PM

120 on 10 pounds would be epic Brent :nod:

Ondonti

09-02-2010, 08:38 PM

Well i turned it up to 14 to go play with my friend's car and spark was blowing out. .030" gap.
Previously on the dyno it was blowing out (less because you couldn't feel it but you could see it on the dyno chart) on 7.0:1 motor and 20 pounds with a .031" gap, so 14 pounds on a 10:1 makes sense it was blowing out at .030"

Dropped spark gap to .024"

I purposely set the gap high before because I didnt want to turn up the boost. On the fun runs with my friend the alky system was not working either...Took it home, it primed when I applied pressure to the controller so I don't know what was up. Maybe the breakup was preventing the car from holding boost high enough to activate the controller. The Alky controller does not come on until 9.7 psi and is full by 13 right now.

I should have left the boost where it was because it sorta ruined the fun. Start breaking up right after the hit and he blows past.

Ondonti

04-25-2011, 08:22 PM

This is the last time I drove things the way they were. Had to set her aside and then I took the stock heads/cams off. The car was never supposed to have stock heads but it was a necessity at the time.

Friend had just recently run 124mph at the track. I was the faster car that day but he was the better driver. We stayed neck and neck even though He had traction and I did not, then he kills me on shift and he runs out of gear as I hit 140mph. His motor crapped the bed here but he didn't know it yet. Melted a forged piston. I blame him running plugs that are too hot but Nissan guys are afraid of cold plugs for fear of efficiency something or other. I prefer no boom boom.

Car is now running n/a with pos stock cylinder heads with at least one leaking exhaust valve and Diamante cams. Probably going to be raced n/a for awhile since I am at sea level and Junkyard 2.0 is not even started yet. N/A goal of 13.99 on the stock motor but I don't know how much the leaking valves will hurt. I think at high rpms its not such a big deal because there is less time for pressure to leak down.
Still sticking with the same shortblock. The top of the pistons are black so its certainly consuming a bit of oil with 190,000 miles no matter how well I cleaned up the pistons and free'd up the oil rings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-ISm1VMsuo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz7jp2d6r4s

Vigo

04-25-2011, 09:05 PM

Oooooh a strong NX2000. I like those things.

Reaper1

04-26-2011, 08:24 AM

How'd he run out of gear at 140? I've witnesses an SER hit 150 firsthand...was he running a different tranny or short tires or something?

Force Fed Mopar

04-26-2011, 05:55 PM

Probably had 4.10 gears or something lol.

Ondonti

07-21-2011, 05:00 AM

How'd he run out of gear at 140? I've witnesses an SER hit 150 firsthand...was he running a different tranny or short tires or something?
He can't rev past 7800 and couldn't get to 140. Other sr20's rev to 8500 or 9k+ Its his ECU. I think he needs an overclock to get up there and his eagle rods might not want to go past 8500. He is the king of indecision. Been bugging him to get a simple Calum flashable setup but he wont even do that (the easiest setup possible for him). He just runs a Calum mail order. Not sure on that spelling.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just won this in an auction. I dont' know when I will ever get around to building the new setup. I wanted to race it n/a but work is winning in the happiness department. Decided to buy this so I can get rid of one excuse. I don't know yet what will be the first thing that I actually work on when I do work on it. Either the T case or the exhaust manifold/downpipe.

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Junkyard%20Version%202/Exhaust%20Manifold/HDS-350Z-G35.jpg

Kreel

07-21-2011, 09:33 AM

So do those 350Z headers have the same bolt pattern/spacing to fit on a 3.0L SOHC without modification?

Vigo

07-21-2011, 01:56 PM

Looks like they would bolt on with little or no mods (easier to slot/grind/drill mounting holes in steel than cast iron) but the port shape doesnt look exactly right. If the height of those ports is at least as high as the 3.0 ports the extra hanging off the sides wont hurt much.

Force Fed Mopar

07-21-2011, 03:50 PM

I want to say the bolt pattern is different,

Ondonti

07-21-2011, 04:15 PM

Bolt pattern is a little different. I believe they are 1.75" primaries, 2.25" secondaries, so even with the smashed oval they might fit. I am going to attempt to cheat as much as I can with the flange that is there before I attach a real 3.0 flange. I recently saw some "nice" looking headers that someone started producing for the 3000gt's and I thought I should just order a set with sohc flanges (single turbo style "pro drag") but I realized that the runner closest to the collector was VERY short. That made me barf for the kinda money it would cost. That actually motivated me to make the purchase that I have been avoiding. These are equal length (surely not perfect) and to me, that is a good thing for pushing a stock shortblock. Keep every cylinder as close as possible in output.

Supposedly the bore spacing is the same. I am hoping the only real problem will be the radiator. Might need a radiator that fits inside the radiator support area and hope there is still room for a pusher fan. I still don't know if they will be flipped up or down. I won't get around to this anytime soon but I wanted to pull the trigger so I could have these burning a hole in my pocket.

There are some headers out there with smaller primaries but I am looking for all top end + I don't want to buy something and find out its not as advertised.

bakes

07-21-2011, 06:28 PM

If you can re flange it with the new flanges as close to the head / valve cover as possible !!! there has to be someone at your work who can weld stainless.

Force Fed Mopar

07-21-2011, 07:08 PM

Should be able to run a Neon rad, that's what I'm gonna do in my Rampage.

Doesn't Ed have headers? Or you don't like his?

Vigo

07-21-2011, 09:55 PM

Ed makes log headers out of weld-els. Certainly way better than a stock 3.0 front mani, but not equal-length headers by any means.

Ondonti

07-22-2011, 04:04 AM

I already have a turbo setup, making a second one.

Ondonti

09-05-2011, 03:27 AM

I've been sitting, waiting, wishing, I had time for my poor baby.

I have some things worked out but only posted on facebook. Maybe next year. Stupid me, I forgot to hit the circuit breaker for my new battery so its dead (4 volts). Uhgg. I put jumper cables from it to a charged battery and am charging them together since I have learned that tends to trick auto chargers into charging dead batteries. I only drove it a few times on that Motobatt :( The wiring harness needs to be finished but I don't see myself touching that until a LOT of other things are done.

Those are burned valve cylinder heads from my Spirit because I needed the Junkyard's good 190,000k mile stock cylinder heads to daily drive without machine work. That means the solid rockers and cams I installed are now in the Spirit. So the Junkyard has a completely stock motor but with the added bonus of leaking valves and Megasquirt II/Extra. I plan on racing it next year n/a if I have time and have not torn it apart.

I took it off insurance and did not register it this year but I installed the 3" exhaust using the exhaust manifold to 3" adapter from my Spirit when it was n/a. I did this so I could drive the car without getting arrested in this cop crazy town but I don't want to mess around with converting it back to gasoline right now. I have also been tempted to rip off the Megasquirt for my daily and that would make the Duster undrivable for a long time.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Junkyard%20Version%202/Sitting%20and%20Waiting%20for%20the%20New%20Turbo% 20Setup/SANY0217.jpg

Ondonti

05-21-2013, 12:03 AM

Waiting on 3.3 springs.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Junkyard%20Version%202/Valvetrain/SANY2508.jpg (http://s546.photobucket.com/user/ondonti/media/Junkyard%20Version%202/Valvetrain/SANY2508.jpg.html)

Had to go through the transmission because it has been locked up in 1st and 2nd gear from corrosion. Pinion Sleeve walked off and had to be welded in place. Bronze shift fork pads from Lengel. Bluetooth adapter for Megasquirt to android device.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Transmission/A543%203_77%20Walked%20pinion%20sleeve%20and%20bin ding%201st/SANY2360.jpg (http://s546.photobucket.com/user/ondonti/media/Turbododge/Transmission/A543%203_77%20Walked%20pinion%20sleeve%20and%20bin ding%201st/SANY2360.jpg.html)
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Transmission/A543%203_77%20Walked%20pinion%20sleeve%20and%20bin ding%201st/SANY2363.jpg (http://s546.photobucket.com/user/ondonti/media/Turbododge/Transmission/A543%203_77%20Walked%20pinion%20sleeve%20and%20bin ding%201st/SANY2363.jpg.html)
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Transmission/A543%203_77%20Walked%20pinion%20sleeve%20and%20bin ding%201st/SANY2376.jpg (http://s546.photobucket.com/user/ondonti/media/Turbododge/Transmission/A543%203_77%20Walked%20pinion%20sleeve%20and%20bin ding%201st/SANY2376.jpg.html)
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Transmission/A543%203_77%20Walked%20pinion%20sleeve%20and%20bin ding%201st/SANY2391.jpg (http://s546.photobucket.com/user/ondonti/media/Turbododge/Transmission/A543%203_77%20Walked%20pinion%20sleeve%20and%20bin ding%201st/SANY2391.jpg.html)
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Transmission/A543%203_77%20Walked%20pinion%20sleeve%20and%20bin ding%201st/SANY2396.jpg (http://s546.photobucket.com/user/ondonti/media/Turbododge/Transmission/A543%203_77%20Walked%20pinion%20sleeve%20and%20bin ding%201st/SANY2396.jpg.html)
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Transmission/A543%203_77%20Walked%20pinion%20sleeve%20and%20bin ding%201st/SANY2397.jpg (http://s546.photobucket.com/user/ondonti/media/Turbododge/Transmission/A543%203_77%20Walked%20pinion%20sleeve%20and%20bin ding%201st/SANY2397.jpg.html)
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Transmission/A543%203_77%20Walked%20pinion%20sleeve%20and%20bin ding%201st/SANY2398.jpg (http://s546.photobucket.com/user/ondonti/media/Turbododge/Transmission/A543%203_77%20Walked%20pinion%20sleeve%20and%20bin ding%201st/SANY2398.jpg.html)
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Turbododge/Transmission/A543%203_77%20Walked%20pinion%20sleeve%20and%20bin ding%201st/SANY2411.jpg (http://s546.photobucket.com/user/ondonti/media/Turbododge/Transmission/A543%203_77%20Walked%20pinion%20sleeve%20and%20bin ding%201st/SANY2411.jpg.html)

turbovanman²

05-26-2013, 06:35 PM

Did you take the whole trans apart and clean out the metal?

Losing track, which car is this for? lol.

Vigo

05-27-2013, 11:40 AM

This is in the duster..

Ondonti

05-27-2013, 12:42 PM

Did you take the whole trans apart and clean out the metal?

Losing track, which car is this for? lol.

This is in the duster..

Yes, and now I don't want to think about what might be happening to the transmission inside my Spirit..if that sleeve is moving. I kinda hate these cars as of just now since I didn't even think about my other car's trans.

I finished school so this car is getting some attention again. The big question is whether I will do something that will keep it down long term or goof around with it before doing that or find a way to minimize downtime. Getting it running again would be nice but I couldn't even check the timing or bother with draining the 2.5 year old E85 when the trans was locking up an car rolling forward in neutral when I hit the starter. It has junk heads on it from my Spirit and so I don't know that anything is set correctly, plus I had a megasquirt failure that melted the coil driver with a corrupt tune (battery died while flashing tune).

Ondonti

06-15-2013, 03:27 AM

Drove the car out of its parking spot of 3 years. Vacuumed it out. Quick pressure wash. Needs a LOT of cleaning still.
3 puck solid clutch stock flywheel is so much easier to engage then my chattering fidanza flywheel 4 puck solid daily.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Junkyard%20Version%202/Sitting%20and%20Waiting%20for%20the%20New%20Turbo% 20Setup/SANY2599.jpg (http://s546.photobucket.com/user/ondonti/media/Junkyard%20Version%202/Sitting%20and%20Waiting%20for%20the%20New%20Turbo% 20Setup/SANY2599.jpg.html)
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Junkyard%20Version%202/Sitting%20and%20Waiting%20for%20the%20New%20Turbo% 20Setup/SANY2602.jpg (http://s546.photobucket.com/user/ondonti/media/Junkyard%20Version%202/Sitting%20and%20Waiting%20for%20the%20New%20Turbo% 20Setup/SANY2602.jpg.html)
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/Junkyard%20Version%202/Sitting%20and%20Waiting%20for%20the%20New%20Turbo% 20Setup/SANY2607.jpg (http://s546.photobucket.com/user/ondonti/media/Junkyard%20Version%202/Sitting%20and%20Waiting%20for%20the%20New%20Turbo% 20Setup/SANY2607.jpg.html)

Reaper1

06-15-2013, 01:11 PM

Sweet! So, got the MS figured out then it seems...

Ondonti

06-15-2013, 04:57 PM

It was simply corrupted firmware again. I repaired my usb ports a bit and reinstalled the driver for my serial to usb connector and it seems to stay connected without going "bum bum" and disconnecting at the slightest movement.

Reaper1

06-15-2013, 05:45 PM

Cool! I'm glad to hear it's running sort of reliably. Have you tried to drive it a little more than moving it, yet to see if the tranny is working?

Irocelectric93

06-16-2013, 02:42 PM

Sweet. Good way to spend a fathers day...workingon the Junkyard! Happy fathers day Brent :)

Ondonti

06-16-2013, 03:46 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poQnvntV0Fs&feature=youtu.be

Reaper1

06-16-2013, 06:33 PM

Sweet! Happy father's day, BTW!

Vigo

06-16-2013, 07:18 PM

Egggggcellent.

Ondonti

08-09-2013, 06:32 AM

After some grief with axles from 3.3L's getting their inner boots torn off, I got a 3rd axle installed. I had to grind some casting flash and something else off my transmission case because I couldn't massage the clamp on the axle any further down. I don't think there is a purpose for what I ground of except chrysler being cheap. Now I have almost 1/8" clerance :P

Also started using my knock mic that I made years ago. I got it all worked out on my Wife's 3 speed Spirit so I could figure out what was knock and what was not. Put it onto the Duster and with a short drive I can tell that I have too much timing at 2000 to 2500ish at medium loads. This was after draining the 87 and putting in 92 octane. I think a large cam would make that knock disappear without changing timing.

-------------------------------------
Have the Tow Dolly out and hopefully Reaper1 and I make it down to Pacific Raceways to put some passes on the car. First time down the strip with no turbo plus the heads/cams are burned valves and stock. I have a feeling its gonna be slow since I have not refined the spark map and nobody seems to perform as expected on megasquirt n/a.

Cool thing is I won't technically have to shift to 4th no matter how fast my traps are. My current rev limiter on stock old old springs is 6950-7000 or something like that which should be over 100mph on my tires and transmission.

Vigo

08-09-2013, 09:34 AM

Sounds good, cant wait to hear.

Ondonti

08-11-2013, 11:30 AM

During rush hour, 3.8L Taurus shuts down and dies as I have always been told it does while under moderate/high loads on hot day. Read a bunch of stories on the internet and nobody ever solves this issue regardless of how many parts they throw at it.

We solved it by Reaper1 driving the Junkyard home and me driving with 4x4 a/c and the heater on :(

Spirit is still sitting without transmission because I was wanting to race so bad. Would not have had this problem if the Spirit was done.

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh426/ondonti/No%20racing%20tonight/IMG_20130809_183856.jpg (http://s546.photobucket.com/user/ondonti/media/No%20racing%20tonight/IMG_20130809_183856.jpg.html)

Vigo

08-11-2013, 12:20 PM

Yeah, that last line was my first thought as well when i found out, but i figured no point in rubbing it in. :(

Hopefully you can get another chance sometime soon.

Ondonti

08-11-2013, 12:28 PM

Yeah, that last line was my first thought as well when i found out, but i figured no point in rubbing it in. :(

Hopefully you can get another chance sometime soon.

Well driving home, Reaper1 had no problems shifting into 3rd until just around the corner from home (hot trans) and 3rd started grinding when going 2-3. I drove the car still warm and same problem. Like the synchro just decided to stop functioning.
What sucks is that if you pull it out of 2nd, then put in in 3rd, its fine. You can also go from 4th to 3rd and its fine. Double clutching its fine. Grump. This development makes the car less interesting to drive or race because I will cause damage to 3rd gear teeth.

Something about going from 2-3, the transmission does not want to change speeds on the gears. Even with an excessively long clutch depress it grinds. Slamming it does shorten the crunch time. Grinds at 2k but at 5-6k you just get little unhappiness when you force it in.

I did change the clutch cable setup, removed a bunch of washers and set back my clutch switch so the bracket is not being forced back to the firewall. It sure feels like we are getting complete release well before hitting the floor with the pedal. When sitting, the input shaft does not spin up until about 3" from the floor which should be plenty of travel for shifting...

Vigo

08-11-2013, 12:47 PM

Something about going from 2-3, the transmission does not want to change speeds on the gears. Even with an excessively long clutch depress it grinds. Slamming it does shorten the crunch time. Grinds at 2k but at 5-6k you just get little unhappiness when you force it in.

Long clutch-in will just make it worse. Shifting into 3rd from high rpms would mask the problem a little because the shaft speed will fall through the speed that 3rd wants at some point, regardless of whether synchros work or not. Shifting into 3rd from low rpms (from 4th or 5th, or any gear with a long clutch-in) would make it feel worse.

Not sure what the issue is, so im really not helping.

Ondonti

08-11-2013, 03:02 PM

Transmission was went through 3 months ago because all the gears were sticking or just not going in (synchros seized onto gears) after sitting a few years. I am going to try burnishing the 3rd gear synchro. Its possible it got stuck or I don't know what else. They looked good on their "stop" surface. If I had the transmission apart again I would have investigated 3-4 synchros a bit more. I know we turned around the slider hub or something like that because it was reversable and the transmission has not liked 3rd gear since. Reason for flipping that was to try to balance out tooth profiles (mix the better stuff with the not so good stuff).

Force Fed Mopar

08-11-2013, 03:16 PM

Taurus problem is probably the ignition module or the multi-function switch/relay box.

Reaper1

08-13-2013, 12:01 PM

Anybody have any luck with "stickier" tranny fluids? I'm usually not one for additives, but maybe in this case it might help. Though, I'm not sure what. It just seems to me the synchro simply isn't grabbing and slowing the gear down.

Something Brent forgot to mention was the fluid he is using. I personally don't think it's much of an issue, but IIRC (Brent, correct me here!): 1/4 Synchromesh, 1/4 Lucas, the rest is 10w30

As said, I had no issues shifting it all the way back to just around the corner from his house, then it ground 3rd. The entire rest of the night it did it. In my experience that I've have with specifically Royal Purple Synchromesh is that while it's cold, it's great, but once it warms up it doesn't work as well...at least in our transmissions.

BTW, as for the Taurus..yeah, I was thinking ignition module, but I couldn't find it buried down in all the BS that's in that engine bay. There is a plug coming off this dizzy, but it looks to me like it goes right into the harness. I know from experience that the older Fords had issues with the ignition modules getting too hot, but those were in the dizzy and the plug looks completely different. Something else to keep in mind is that I remember that when these cars were used in "severe duty" (aka Police cars), they used a different grill that had vents in them to help keep the engine cool. It's a very common thing to see SHO guys swap that grill in.

Is the multi-function switch box mounted up by the radiator? I thought that box was the transmission controller?