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spyder
07-22-2009, 06:45 PM
Here's some teaser pics of a motor I picked up awhile back . A Dyno mule of unknown origin....

dds78910
07-22-2009, 06:50 PM
Any more pics?

daver
07-22-2009, 06:55 PM
Check and see if it's a 5-valve motor..

There was a tech school that at some point received $$ from Chrysler for a 2.2/2.5 project. It was for a 5-valve cylinder head. I have a few pics around somewhere.. looks similar.

snoman
07-22-2009, 07:26 PM
TEASE!

thats pretty sick, I'd like to see more of that intake. and a 5 valve! that could get crazy!

DodgeZ
07-22-2009, 08:22 PM
Check and see if it's a 5-valve motor..

There was a tech school that at some point received $$ from Chrysler for a 2.2/2.5 project. It was for a 5-valve cylinder head. I have a few pics around somewhere.. looks similar.


I know a guy that was some what involved with that

spyder
07-22-2009, 08:42 PM
Check and see if it's a 5-valve motor..


Nope , it has a cylinder head that is very similar to a single cam 2.0 (except the exhaust port).

turbovanman²
07-22-2009, 08:58 PM
Got any better pics? Looks like a hybrid TIII cam gear. Is that big chunk of aluminium a spacer from the intake to the head?

That is way cool for sure, :thumb:

JuXsA
07-22-2009, 09:57 PM
can we not use the camera on our cell phone and use a real camera for pix?

DodgeZ
07-22-2009, 10:38 PM
odd when I click the picture I see one of my old cars...

spyder
07-22-2009, 10:48 PM
can we not use the camera on our cell phone and use a real camera for pix?
Hence the word "teaser"....


Got any better pics? Looks like a hybrid TIII cam gear. Is that big chunk of aluminium a spacer from the intake to the head?


That "big chunk of aluminum" sure would come in handy for intake swaps without unhooking fuel rail or injectors !! :eyebrows:

spyder
07-23-2009, 09:43 AM
thats pretty sick, I'd like to see more of that intake.

OK...

contraption22
07-23-2009, 09:53 AM
Looks like an early mockup of the Neon SOHC head.

spyder
07-23-2009, 10:01 AM
Looks like an early mockup of the Neon SOHC head.
Strange thing is , it's a 2.5 lower end ??

WLKivett
07-23-2009, 10:22 AM
how many valves does it have?

Vigo
07-23-2009, 01:50 PM
Holy crap dude thats 4 tbi injectors. Thats a ---- TON of fuel. If someone built a fuel rail like that for us itd be the cheapest way ever to get 5-600 hp out of 4 freebie injectors.

spyder
07-23-2009, 05:23 PM
how many valves does it have?


. (http://img22.imageshack.us/i/prototype044.jpg/)................

shadow88
07-23-2009, 05:56 PM
This is some neat stuff here. The fuel injectors look like an early experiment on the "side flow" injectors on the 3.5l v6 LH engine and the viper as well as a few others.

The intake really looks odd with no real plenum volume and no throttle body. Keep them pictures coming! Maybe some background info?

cordes
07-23-2009, 06:10 PM
That thing has some potential.

DodgeZ
07-23-2009, 07:32 PM
This is some neat stuff here. The fuel injectors look like an early experiment on the "side flow" injectors on the 3.5l v6 LH engine and the viper as well as a few others.

The intake really looks odd with no real plenum volume and no throttle body. Keep them pictures coming! Maybe some background info?

some of the Neons don't have a TB on the intake

glhs613
07-23-2009, 08:07 PM
Check and see if it's a 5-valve motor..

There was a tech school that at some point received $$ from Chrysler for a 2.2/2.5 project. It was for a 5-valve cylinder head. I have a few pics around somewhere.. looks similar.

There were several schools/shops in the mid-late 80's that received some money from Chrysler to develop a multi-valve head. Chrysler needed a 2.2/2.5L multi-valve head quickly and to speed up development, they were giving away parts and money (Small $$) to any shop/facility that could write a good professional proposal. Quite a few shops/colleges got involved.

The V.R.I. at Western Washington University developed a one off 20 valve head for the 2.2/2.5L that had a trick servo operated dual plane intake manifold. A couple of Chrysler Engineers flew out and looked at it but nothing made it to production. Fairly high-tech though for 1986/1987.

My guess is that engine in the first picture came from a college in the mid-late 80's. The cyl head and valve cover look production with four TBI injectors and a custom intake manifold/boss. I think maybe its a head from another manufacturer that was grafted onto a 2.5 block.

Just my .02.

Steve

turbovanman²
07-23-2009, 09:00 PM
Looks like import type fuel injectors and that valve cover reminds me of a Colt.

Anymore pics of the head, cam gear and cam setup?

Anyone notice its square tooth cam gears, and the pistons are 180 deg's out.

cordes
07-23-2009, 09:56 PM
There were several schools/shops in the mid-late 80's that received some money from Chrysler to develop a multi-valve head. Chrysler needed a 2.2/2.5L multi-valve head quickly and to speed up development, they were giving away parts and money (Small $$) to any shop/facility that could write a good professional proposal. Quite a few shops/colleges got involved.

The V.R.I. at Western Washington University developed a one off 20 valve head for the 2.2/2.5L that had a trick servo operated dual plane intake manifold. A couple of Chrysler Engineers flew out and looked at it but nothing made it to production. Fairly high-tech though for 1986/1987.

My guess is that engine in the first picture came from a college in the mid-late 80's. The cyl head and valve cover look production with four TBI injectors and a custom intake manifold/boss. I think maybe its a head from another manufacturer that was grafted onto a 2.5 block.

Just my .02.

Steve

AWESOME first post! :clap:

DodgeZ
07-23-2009, 10:06 PM
AWESOME first post! :clap:

He joined just to post in this thread!

spyder
07-24-2009, 12:33 AM
My guess is that engine in the first picture came from a college in the mid-late 80's. The cyl head and valve cover look production with four TBI injectors and a custom intake manifold/boss. I think maybe its a head from another manufacturer that was grafted onto a 2.5 block.

Just my .02.

Steve

While I have yet to find out the exact origin of the engine , the A592 stamped on the block & the fact that it first appeared in Auburn Hills , lead me to believe the engine was a Chrysler engineering test mule . The fact that the cylinder head is void of any part number , make me think it was made by one of Chryslers many casting houses back in the day . Funny , the casting itself is very reminiscent of a pair of Westlake D-5 Hemi heads I had way back .
Interesting PN on the inside of the valve cover.....




Looks like import type fuel injectors and that valve cover reminds me off a Colt.

Anymore pics of the head, cam gear and cam setup?

Anyone notice its square tooth cam gears, and the pistons are 180 deg's out.

Here ya' go .



Sure looks like a 2.0 SOHC up top .

turbovanman²
07-24-2009, 03:29 AM
Wow, those rocker arms are sure crude looking, :eyebrows:

Adjustable cam gear, neato.

Can you photo the ports?

Looks like a cross between a Neon head and a Civic head.

spyder
07-24-2009, 10:04 AM
Wow, those rocker arms are sure crude looking, :eyebrows:

Adjustable cam gear, neato.

Can you photo the ports?

Looks like a cross between a Neon head and a Civic head.

Here they be !


Big improvement over a SOHC 2.0 exhaust port....

mw6886
07-24-2009, 10:06 AM
Diesel?

ShelGame
07-24-2009, 09:54 PM
Wow, 8-89 casting date? That's way earlier than the SOHC production date.

I was just comparing these pics to some I have of the SOHC Magnum head. There's an obvious family resemblance, but it doesn't look like it shares anything with the 2.0 version. I wish they still had the tooling for this one...

glhs0426
07-24-2009, 11:23 PM
Don't be narrow minded. Technology learned from one engine study could be applied to other engine platform. This engine has a lot of 2.0, but the rockers, spark plug tube sealing, exhaust port shape all look like the 1st gen 3.5L the made production in 1993.

Lead time on production was at least five years back then. My father sold a set of NOS '67 GTX tailamps to a fuel systems engineer in 1988. The man told him how excited he was about the four valve V8 engine that was coming out on a new large car platform. I am still waiting for that four valve V8 from Chrysler.

John

glhs0426
07-24-2009, 11:28 PM
I really wish all the design studies were available for viewing. We could learn soooo much.

spyder
07-26-2009, 06:24 PM
Thought I'd post a couple more pics before this thread vanishes into the depths of the intraweb.....

DodgeZ
07-26-2009, 07:09 PM
very cool, so are you going to try to run it?

turbovanman²
07-26-2009, 07:11 PM
Don't be narrow minded. Technology learned from one engine study could be applied to other engine platform. This engine has a lot of 2.0, but the rockers, spark plug tube sealing, exhaust port shape all look like the 1st gen 3.5L the made production in 1993.

Lead time on production was at least five years back then. My father sold a set of NOS '67 GTX tailamps to a fuel systems engineer in 1988. The man told him how excited he was about the four valve V8 engine that was coming out on a new large car platform. I am still waiting for that four valve V8 from Chrysler.

John

The TIII was started in the mid 80's, wasn't it?

As for the 4 valve V8, its called a Hemi, ;)

Way cool on the EGT probe's on all cylinders, :thumb:

spyder
07-26-2009, 07:23 PM
very cool, so are you going to try to run it?

I hope to , but I'm not the most ambitious guy in the world . This would be , like , project # 764.....



The TIII was started in the mid 80's, wasn't it?

As for the 4 valve V8, its called a Hemi, ;)

Way cool on the EGT probe's on all cylinders, :thumb:

Chrysler did work on a 4 valve V-8 based on a 3.5 , like many other projects , never saw the light of day....



No shortage of probes / sensors here !!

Vigo
07-27-2009, 12:55 PM
4 valve V-8 based on a 3.5

That would have been sweet.

I also noticed the resemblance to the first gen 3.5 head.


I still want a tbi injector fuel rail. The early ones run at 14 psi.. which is cool because a pump can support more power at those low pressures than at the 70-something we often end up running them at. and tbi injectors are practically free!

LeBaronGTC
09-03-2009, 09:03 AM
Hi,

From what motor that head was taken? Do you have head number?

Thanks

Tomi

neongary
09-03-2009, 10:34 AM
The TIII was started in the mid 80's, wasn't it?

As for the 4 valve V8, its called a Hemi, ;)

Way cool on the EGT probe's on all cylinders, :thumb:

The new Hemi only has 2 valves per cylinder, unless you are referring to something else.

Mario
09-03-2009, 11:34 AM
I'll lend a hand if you want to drop it in.

spyder
09-03-2009, 06:12 PM
Hey , the hybrid thread is back from the dead !!


Hi,From what motor that head was taken? Do you have head number?
Thanks
Tomi

Sorry , this is not a production cylinder head , there are no #s on it . BTW , I've seen plenty of cool Mopars from Finland !!


I'll lend a hand if you want to drop it in.

Thanks , maybe someday , but by then your Grandkids will have to help !

shelbyplaya
09-03-2009, 06:47 PM
odd how the intake is held togeather by band clamps.

LeBaronGTC
09-10-2009, 12:07 PM
Hey , the hybrid thread is back from the dead !!



Sorry , this is not a production cylinder head , there are no #s on it . BTW , I've seen plenty of cool Mopars from Finland !!



Thanks , maybe someday , but by then your Grandkids will have to help !

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2509/prototype079.jpg (http://img231.imageshack.us/i/prototype079.jpg/)

I have LeBaronGTC 2.2 Turbo with a lot of mods and running well.:nod:
But still need to make some calibration to the SMEC, running very rich.
I will later add my car to the Turbo-Mopar garage...
Still planning to make hybrid...

Aries_Turbo
09-10-2009, 12:25 PM
so when you selling this head to me for my k car? ;)

Brian

spyder
09-10-2009, 10:14 PM
so when you selling this head to me for my k car? ;)

Brian

I was going to sell it to you yesterday , but now it's too late !

spyder
09-10-2009, 10:21 PM
BTW , saw this on Allpar , not mine , but I'll bet it's a relative !



Lotus Engineering and “what might have been”
Lotus’ Michael Royce wrote:

On March 1st 1985, Bob Sinclair, the Chrysler VP of Engineering, and Mike Kimberley, The Managing Director of Lotus Cars Ltd, signed a contract for three inter-related programs:

- A 2.5L Naturally Aspirated 16 Valve Engine (program A-516)
- A 2.2L turbocharged Intercooled 16 Valve Engine (program A-522),
- A 4 Wheel Drive System (Vehicle) for the G-24 Daytona using the 2.2L Turbo (program A-544).

In the fall of 1986, the 2.5L NA Program was cancelled due to engineering budget constraints. The unusual combination of a long stroke (104 mm) with the 16 valve head fixed the 2.5L's breathing problems, and gave a nice smooth engine that would rev easily up to about 7500 rpm. It gave about the same performance in a vehicle as a Turbo I. The last example I know of was in a P-Body with a manual trans with the emissions people out at the Chelsea PG about 15 years ago.

badandy
05-08-2010, 08:33 PM
I would think with the fuel rail being integrated into that intake manifold base that the fuel would get heated more so than if the fuel rail were kept isolated and separate.

BadAssPerformance
05-09-2010, 12:21 AM
There is a school of thought that hot fuel atomizes better for fuel economy.

Looks like an interesting mule motor for sure! Nice find!

turbovanman²
05-09-2010, 01:27 AM
The unusual combination of a long stroke (104 mm) with the 16 valve head fixed the 2.5L's breathing problems, and gave a nice smooth engine that would rev easily up to about 7500 rpm. It gave about the same performance in a vehicle as a Turbo I.

This makes me love my 2.5 TIII even more, :amen: :love:

RoadWarrior222
05-09-2010, 10:06 AM
The unusual combination of a long stroke (104 mm) with the 16 valve head fixed the 2.5L's breathing problems, and gave a nice smooth engine that would rev easily up to about 7500 rpm. It gave about the same performance in a vehicle as a Turbo I.

Sounds like the 2.4 Magnum :D


BTW that intake looks very similar to the 2nd gen Ford Escort piece.

Reeves
05-17-2010, 03:50 PM
Looks cool!

spyder
05-18-2010, 07:24 PM
I'm still trying to find out what the A592 Engineering Program was . I've gotten many conflicting stories from Chrysler engineers , but none seem to make sense .

Here's another tidbit from the Frontrunners forum , related , but not mine ......

"The 2.5 litre 16v engine was originally envisioned as a replacement for the Turbo I in Dodge's low-end sporty cars. Before development was cancelled in 1986 Lotus had it making 150hp when revving cleanly up to 7,500 rpm! Most of the development engines were shipped back to the US and fitted to Dodge Shadow test mule cars, before eventually going in the crusher. Only one example still exists and is on display at the Lotus factory in Norfolk, next to a Turbo III engine. In production cars its place was taken by the non-intercooled 2.5 turbo and the normally aspirated 3 litre V6."

turbovanman²
05-18-2010, 07:30 PM
What could have been, sigh. A production 2.5 16 valve then we add a turbo, :nod:

john1320
06-03-2010, 01:19 AM
I'm still trying to find out what the A592 Engineering Program was . I've gotten many conflicting stories from Chrysler engineers , but none seem to make sense .

Here's another tidbit from the Frontrunners forum , related , but not mine ......

"The 2.5 litre 16v engine was originally envisioned as a replacement for the Turbo I in Dodge's low-end sporty cars. Before development was cancelled in 1986 Lotus had it making 150hp when revving cleanly up to 7,500 rpm! Most of the development engines were shipped back to the US and fitted to Dodge Shadow test mule cars, before eventually going in the crusher. Only one example still exists and is on display at the Lotus factory in Norfolk, next to a Turbo III engine. In production cars its place was taken by the non-intercooled 2.5 turbo and the normally aspirated 3 litre V6."

I am thoroughly disgusted, they had the best dam potential waaay ahead of anyone else- and they threw it away for what- a crappy v-6 imho, and choked 8 valvers.
AWSOME thread though! :amen:

Garffus
06-03-2010, 08:21 AM
Very interesting engine you have there, hope you put it to good use :thumb:

Vigo
07-14-2010, 10:11 PM
BTW that intake looks very similar to the 2nd gen Ford Escort piece.


Heh, to me that would suggest that the Escort piece didnt have much development work on it since.. The way that intake is setup, is clearly to facilitate experimentation with different arrangements. Note the 4 egt probes in the exhaust. The only point of that is manifold tuning, because the head itself is identical in each cylinder, the only significant variations would be from the intake side. The fact that the fuel rail and injectors do not have to be removed to change the intake, as mentioned, means you dont have to design/build a fuel rail setup into every new manifold design, and the fact that the runners are attached to that with hose clamps (which would just require all sorts of bracketry and cause huge leaks eventually) and that the TB is attached by hose instead of flange, all just points to the fact that that intake was not a 'finished' piece but just what happened to be clamped to the head at the time.

In a performance application, we'd alll be going for something with shorter runners and bigger plenum anyway, so the fact that its setup like that just makes it that much easier to replace it with something better.:thumb:

spyder
12-21-2011, 08:06 PM
Bump from the dead , just in case someone new might recognize this engine.......

black86glhs
12-21-2011, 09:54 PM
Do any of the 2.0 or 2.4 manifolds bolt up to it?

spyder
12-22-2011, 11:39 PM
Don't know , I only have 2.2 parts laying around.

OmniLuvr
01-25-2015, 03:58 PM
so I was searching through some posts looking for a little more hybrid info before i start getting mine together, came across this from a long time ago...

SO WHAT HAPPENED WITH THIS THING!

Reaper1
01-28-2015, 03:55 PM
I'm hoping somebody saved the pictures. I probably did at one point, but I don't think I could find them if I wanted to.

OmniLuvr
01-28-2015, 06:04 PM
I "remember" what it looks like, but that doesn't do much good...

ShelGame
01-28-2015, 08:03 PM
I have those pics...

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vmkne3awgnegcw3/AACtqRsiCGr4NPWJLEmtsQeca?dl=0

spyder
01-29-2015, 01:55 AM
I have those pics...

I have that motor...

OmniLuvr
01-29-2015, 05:45 PM
I KNOW! whats the progress with it? is it time to sell it ;)

fixit
01-29-2015, 09:18 PM
wow..
you can see the port inspiration on the new 16v heads

curious, how long are the runners on the intake manifold?
< want to calculate what rpm they were tuning for>

OmniLuvr
01-29-2015, 10:22 PM
I always wondered what they used for a throttle body? and the oil drains on the head look pretty strange too

spyder
01-29-2015, 11:17 PM
I KNOW! whats the progress with it? is it time to sell it ;)

It has accumulated about an additional .037 of dust, am assuming it will continue to do so.....I have many, many other projects. I'd consider selling it, but don't know what would be fair.....

OmniLuvr
01-30-2015, 02:45 PM
or how would you get parts for the head if needed? I wonder if it uses a neon sohc cam with the "hybrid" cam gear on it, or? what did you plan on doing with it? did you have a specific chassis you wanted to put it in?

tryingbe
01-30-2015, 02:51 PM
or how would you get parts for the head if needed?

Don't count on a part list for the custom one-off head, I bet you no one has it.

OmniLuvr
01-30-2015, 03:27 PM
for sure, but a lot of stuff "looks" neon, wonder what is and what isn't? valves and springs shouldn't be to bad to find, rockers look neon, but the cam is?

Sgt Craig
02-12-2015, 09:30 PM
Thats neon developement all the way other than shortblock.Id put it together and leave it on a engine stand.

RoadWarrior222
02-13-2015, 12:45 PM
Could have been a "cobble, cobble, bodge, cobble", "Yay 50HP on the dyno, that proves it runs, now let's do it properly..." or in other words, special engine is "special"

boost geek
02-13-2015, 09:32 PM
all I see are advertisements

boost geek
02-13-2015, 10:45 PM
thanks for the pics shelgame! ports look like the neon r/t head I used to have

spyder
10-20-2015, 08:47 PM
Just found the file that had these pics in it......problem solved.

Ondonti
10-21-2015, 05:38 AM
I am thoroughly disgusted, they had the best dam potential waaay ahead of anyone else- and they threw it away for what- a crappy v-6 imho, and choked 8 valvers.
AWSOME thread though! :amen:

People who actually buy cars would have been really unhappy with an natually aspirated 16v 2.5L vs a 2.5L turbo or v6. Giving up a lot down low where people actually drive for upper rpms that nobody uses. Could have killed the company with that choice.

Rod Enis
12-07-2015, 01:36 AM
Anything new?

Aries_Turbo
12-10-2015, 06:54 PM
People who actually buy cars would have been really unhappy with an natually aspirated 16v 2.5L vs a 2.5L turbo or v6. Giving up a lot down low where people actually drive for upper rpms that nobody uses. Could have killed the company with that choice.

i mostly agree with that.... its still a 4" stroke. its going to be like a N/A 2.4 with maybe a little more torque..... my folks loved their 2.4 in their cirrus.

"we had no idea that a 4 banger could make power like our old V6 cars.... "

Brian