Innovate or Zeitronix wideband?

[TopDollar69]

I'm looking for any input on both of these units. I like the Zeitronix from a price standpoint, and the fact that it can log EGT. It sounds like some guys are doing interesting work with the Innovate software for direct datalogging from the ECM though, which would be a nice feature. Datalogging is definitly a must, so the standard LC-1 will not work, as I would need the one with the datalogging feature.

[1BADVAN]

You can buy the innovate LC-1 and SSI-4 to datalog the A/F and 4 other 0-5 v signals.

Zeitronix has some nice units too but I am not sure if you have to use their sensors to datalog and i know that their egt probe and MAP sensors are about $100 a piece

Like you mentioned there are programs to datalog a LM through the Innovate software and Risen is close to releasing one for SMEC/SBEC too!

[SebringLX]

I like the datalogging on the Innovate better than the Zeitronix. The Zeitronix is weird, someone sent me a datalog from one for his 360, he said he had to set the number of cylinders to 14 for it to display properly. I did that, and it still didn't show up right. Showed the truck revving out to 16,000 RPM which is neither accurate nor physically possible. I had to have him export it to a CSV file and send it to me just so I could work with it.

[GLHNSLHT2]

love my innovate stuff. The LC-1 datalogs, but just the WB02 signal. An SSI-4 with it get's you 4 other channels. A LMA-3 is the easiest way to get boost/rpm/tps/EGT if you're not great with converting the 0-5v signals. The fuel is the most important though and an LC-1 kit with their analog guages can be found for under $190 on ebay brand new. Their customer service is also second to none! I have never delt with a company so nice and willing to support their product. Yes I had a problem with my XD-16 gauge, but after a few very quick emails between myself and Innovate to make sure it was the gauge and not the LC-1 they sent me an RMA #. In less than a week turn around time I had a new gauge at my doorstep waiting for me.

[risen]

I'm looking for any input on both of these units. I like the Zeitronix from a price standpoint, and the fact that it can log EGT. It sounds like some guys are doing interesting work with the Innovate software for direct datalogging from the ECM though, which would be a nice feature. Datalogging is definitly a must, so the standard LC-1 will not work, as I would need the one with the datalogging feature.

Wait, you can use a LC-1 for datalogging. That's what I have with a guage hooked up to the analog output 1 channel. Why do you think you can't log with a LC-1?

[TopDollar69]

Risen's work is what has me thinking Innovate. I can use my existing EGT, and I would most likely tap off my 3 bar sensor and adjust the numbers after logging. I wish I could find someone selling the LC-1 with the SSI-4 on ebay for a better price like you see with the LC-1 and gauge combo.

[mcglsr2]

i use the zeitronix wideband/datalogger and am really happy with it. i use it to datalog RPM, boost, TPS, EGT, AFR and knock. it ended up being a little pricey because i used their EGT probe and 3.5 Bar MAP. The MAP i think is a requirement. i could have used my existing EGT probe (the unit comes with the pins to hook in any EGT probe) but i wasn't happy with it so i decided to get a new probe.

i ended up tapping some wires off the harness that goes into the LM - regarding the number of cylinders/RPM issue mentioned above, i don't know what happened there. my unit works fine at 4 cyl. the only "gotcha" is do NOT use the coil as the RPM source. this signal is too dirty. i HIGHLY recommend that you tap off the LM harness to get RPMs. once i did that, the signal was very clean.

i'd be happy to let you know what wires i tapped into on the harness if you want.

here's a post i made regarding the unit in my car: http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=405293&postcount=17

i'm sure you'd be happy with either of the datalogging options. both are good products. good luck! :)

EDIT: oh, i forgot to mention, i also got the ZR-2 multigauge with it, so i can see boost, AFR, lamda, EGT at the bush of a button. you can use this gauge and datalog to a computer at the same time.

EDIT EDIT: also, i removed the stock O2 sensor and use just the wideband. the zeitronix can output a narrowband signal, so i just tapped that into the LM harness. the computer gets the narrowband from the zeitronix unit. i don't use the stock O2 anymore.

[glhs727]

I have a used zeitronics wideband set-up fpr sale if anyone is interested. got the ZTS-2 with digital display, wideband O2 and the option egt probe as well.
It came off a srt-4 wrecked car recently. asking $275 for all pieces.

Both the innovate and zeitronics are great products, I like the zeitronics better for the fact that it displays several function, not just O2. It also displayes egt, boost, throttle position sensor etc..
later,
Cindy

[bansheenut420]

Zeitronix FTW. I love mine. Wouldnt think of using anything else.

[t3rse]

I've been nothing but happy with my Innovate thus far.

[TopDollar69]

Ok, nevermind my previous post. I found the videos section on the Innovate websight, and they cleared up alot of the questions I had. It looks like I will be getting the LC-1.

[mcglsr2]

Zeitronix FTW. I love mine. Wouldnt think of using anything else.


I've been nothing but happy with my Innovate thus far.

this is probably pretty much the response you will get. as mentioned, both are great, you probably couldn't go wrong either way :) good position to be in :thumb:

[t3rse]

Yup....which ever one you end up buying is the one you'll like more.

[GLHS592]

The only thing Innovate has on Zeitronix is the ability to datalog without the laptop hooked up. My Zeitronix worked first try out of the box. I am using my existing EGT probe.

[bansheenut420]

Can the innovative do this?
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj95/bansheenut420/22psitrackrun.jpg

[GLHNSLHT2]

sure can.

[johnl]

Zeitronix here. But I'm not diligent enough to master it.

[Ondonti]

I like the datalogging on the Innovate better than the Zeitronix. The Zeitronix is weird, someone sent me a datalog from one for his 360, he said he had to set the number of cylinders to 14 for it to display properly. I did that, and it still didn't show up right. Showed the truck revving out to 16,000 RPM which is neither accurate nor physically possible. I had to have him export it to a CSV file and send it to me just so I could work with it.

its because your coil sends out a junk signal to the dash or you don't understand your coil arrangement (depending on where you source your signal).

I installed a zeitronix on a COP v6 and it required setting the zeitronix to 1 cylinder because...DUH! each cylinder has its own coil and I was only drawying from

If you cant handle that then an LC-1 is way beyond your capabilities. I have to run mine on 4 cylinder mode to get accurate readings from my tach signal.
Its the stock electronics problem, not the zeitronix. Our stuff most likely modifies the tach signal by a certain amount when it gets to the tach to show proper numbers. An LC-1 would have the same problem if it even knew what your rpms were.

So a pretty worthless comparison when LC-1 doesnt even know what rpms are.

[Ondonti]

I have a used zeitronics wideband set-up fpr sale if anyone is interested. got the ZTS-2 with digital display, wideband O2 and the option egt probe as well.
It came off a srt-4 wrecked car recently. asking $275 for all pieces.

Both the innovate and zeitronics are great products, I like the zeitronics better for the fact that it displays several function, not just O2. It also displayes egt, boost, throttle position sensor etc..
later,
Cindy
The square display and comes with functional EGT probe...does it have the 3.5 bar map sensor?

I would be interested. I want another one and I don't really need map sensor in my n/a daily.

[risen]

Can the innovative do this?
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj95/bansheenut420/22psitrackrun.jpg

Absolutely. I'll be sure to dig up some of my old datalogs and post screenshots. So how do you zietronics guys get knock into your datalogs?

And that RPM signal doesn't look very clean, BTW.

[mcglsr2]

Absolutely. I'll be sure to dig up some of my old datalogs and post screenshots. So how do you zietronics guys get knock into your datalogs?

And that RPM signal doesn't look very clean, BTW.

his RPM signal looks sh1tty because he's probably pulling the signal off the coil. i have a super clean signal in my zeitronix, but then i pull RPMs off the tach gauge signal coming from the LM (i'll have to confirm, but i believe pin 12 on the red connector). i also had the dirty signal from the coil, couldn't live with it, and so decided to move it to a better source.

regarding knock, i also tapped into the detonation sensor signal (pin 24 on the blue connector). when datalogging, i check for certain voltages. at 2000 rpm, over 0.8V is knock, at 4000 rpm, over 4.0V is knock.

[OnLooker]

his RPM signal looks sh1tty because he's probably pulling the signal off the coil. i have a super clean signal in my zeitronix, but then i pull RPMs off the tach gauge signal coming from the LM (i'll have to confirm, but i believe pin 12 on the red connector). i also had the dirty signal from the coil, couldn't live with it, and so decided to move it to a better source.

regarding knock, i also tapped into the detonation sensor signal (pin 24 on the blue connector). when datalogging, i check for certain voltages. at 2000 rpm, over 0.8V is knock, at 4000 rpm, over 4.0V is knock.

To see the knock could you also just wire it into the power loss light if you have the mod to turn the light on with knock? That way if the light comes on it shows the computer is seeing knock and pulling timing, know need to look at the volts and figure it out vs rpm.
Andy

[mcglsr2]

To see the knock could you also just wire it into the power loss light if you have the mod to turn the light on with knock? That way if the light comes on it shows the computer is seeing knock and pulling timing, know need to look at the volts and figure it out vs rpm.
Andy

yes, if you have the CEFlash mod turned on in the cal (which i do), however it will pull voltage from that anytime it flashes. knock or otherwise. and as far as the zeitronix is concerned, it will log the voltage. it won't (unfortunately) log a "digital" response of either on or off. so you will still be looking at the voltage in the log. BUT BE CAREFUL HERE: the voltage for that type of stuff, especially a bulb on the dash, is probably 12V. you can only log 0-5V. i don't know what happens if the signal is over 5V. interestingly enough, this might work as a viewable on/off signal though...

personally, i wanted to pull specifically from the knock sensor, that way i know when reviewing logs later that any voltage there was due to knock and nothing else.

[risen]

I understand that you can log the raw knock volts but there's 2 problems with that. It's not windowed properly (read: only looking at the voltage after an ignition event, which I believe our ecus do in a primitive fashion) and you're missing the knock curve between 2k and 4k, which is where knock is most likely (at the torque peak). You can see where the turquoise line jumps in the log and my subsequent closing of the throttle.

Anyways, I believe pulling the values from the ecu itself is superior for knock and the best way to get calculated values (inj pulsewidth, advance, etc).

The log below was done using the previous iteration of the logworks plugin I wrote. The total log was 10 mintues long, but this is a few seconds down to .25 second graduations which is more granular than the LM can log 5 values at. The SMEC/SBEC ecus should be able to give much greater resolution due to their increased baud rate.

I'll eventually publish a SMEC/SBEC plugin for winlog, but it may not be before the end of 09. And you zietronics guys with the ZT2s should be able to use it since winlog supports that wideband.

[mcglsr2]

I understand that you can log the raw knock volts but there's 2 problems with that. It's not windowed properly (read: only looking at the voltage after an ignition event, which I believe our ecus do in a primitive fashion)

i'm not sure i understand you here. i can appreciate the computer does things to adjust AFTER it it reads the raw voltage (is that what you are referring to by "windowing?"). however, i'm not sure that i care in that. what i care about is whether knock was registered at all. which means if the raw voltage tells me knock was registered, then i know i need to tune different to prevent the knock. am i being naive here?



and you're missing the knock curve between 2k and 4k, which is where knock is most likely (at the torque peak).

this is true. but for that i created a line of best fit and thus a table. is it exact? most likely no. however, when used in conjunction with the CEFlash mod, it seems to work for me. having said that, i haven't had an opportunity to do a lot of tuning against it yet. so again, i could be wrong here.

[risen]

i'm not sure i understand you here. i can appreciate the computer does things to adjust AFTER it it reads the raw voltage (is that what you are referring to by "windowing?"). however, i'm not sure that i care in that. what i care about is whether knock was registered at all. which means if the raw voltage tells me knock was registered, then i know i need to tune different to prevent the knock. am i being naive here?


My understanding is this: the ecu doesn't watch the knock sensor when there's no ignition event (spark) and only checks it around the time of a spark. I'd have to read thru the code again to check this, but from what I've read other places that's pretty standard procedure.

[mcglsr2]

oh okay, i see what you are saying. however, from my perspective, i'm not sure i really care what the computer does with the raw voltage knock, right? for example, let's assume that there is a knock signal sent from the sensor. since the computer maybe not be on a compression stroke or whatever, it may disregard that signal, thus a "false positive" if you will. where i'm sitting, though, is that i'm trying to tune such that i eliminate knock altogether. so whether it's a false postive or not, what i learn from the raw voltage is that a signal was sent, and that at some point the computer will get during a firing sequence and retard timing accordingly, thus i need to do something to remove the knock signal. am i making sense? or am i just totally missing the picture?

and i didn't mean to hijack this thread into a knock discussion - sorry all!

[risen]

oh okay, i see what you are saying. however, from my perspective, i'm not sure i really care what the computer does with the raw voltage knock, right? for example, let's assume that there is a knock signal sent from the sensor. since the computer maybe not be on a compression stroke or whatever, it may disregard that signal, thus a "false positive" if you will. where i'm sitting, though, is that i'm trying to tune such that i eliminate knock altogether. so whether it's a false postive or not, what i learn from the raw voltage is that a signal was sent, and that at some point the computer will get during a firing sequence and retard timing accordingly, thus i need to do something to remove the knock signal. am i making sense? or am i just totally missing the picture?

and i didn't mean to hijack this thread into a knock discussion - sorry all!

I get what you're saying and I think that we're still on the same page here.

However consider this: maybe you're taking a false positive into account when you shouldn't be and removing spark when something else caused the voltage from the knock sensor to jump.

Again, I'm not 100% certain that our ecus look at the knock sensor only around a spark, but I thought that was the case last time I looked thru the code. I know you can fool the sensor into tripping the knock retard by taking it off idle and tapping the intake with a hammer, so who knows how good the ecu is at doing this(assuming it's done in the first place).