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View Full Version : Which 2.4L to put in my CSX??



1FastCSX289
07-05-2009, 04:19 PM
I am in the process of tearing out the 8V, selling all my parts and going 2.4L with my GT30R, ebay header (probably), external wastegate, etc. I am looking at a 97 Stratus with a good motor (133k on it) and I can pick it up the whole car for 400 bucks. I would rebuild the engine, put SRT pistons and rods in it and turn up the boost. OR.....I could buy a PT Cruiser Turbo 2.4 (engine only) for about a grand, same ebay header with my GT30R and wastegate, but not rebuild it.....just run it as is. I think the motor has less than 20k miles on it.

Obviously, the PT motor would be easier because I wouldnt have to piece it together. But, which option would be cheaper? Are there any advantages to either option? I read somewhere that the head is better flowing on the PT motors....is that true? Could I run the PT cruiser intake manifold as-is? Which way should I go if budget is a big consideration?

jckrieger
07-05-2009, 04:35 PM
I'm pretty sure the PT motor will have the piston oil squirters. That alone is worth $200 in my opinion knowing your history of blowing sht up!

If you go the other route, last I heard the SRT pistons and rods were cheap from the dealer. You'd want a different intake manifold from what the PT has, so it's a crapshoot either way.

SoCalCSX
07-05-2009, 06:47 PM
Get the PT motor, buy an SRT4 intake manifold, swap and be done. I doubt your hood will close with the PT intake in it. Although you could (depending on what year the PT motor is) use the lower half of the manifold and fab your own plenum out of the top half. You would need an 03-05.5 for the aluminum. 2005.5+ came with a composite manifold.

bakes
07-05-2009, 07:24 PM
Go with the PT and source out a str intake or cut the pt one and put in a 4l plenum chamber tube with a jeep 4.0l tb .

1FastCSX289
07-05-2009, 08:20 PM
Thanks guys. I think the PT motor is an 04, so it should have the aluminum intake, so fabbing one up should be fairly easy. So it seems like most think the PT motor is the way to go. Any other ideas?

turbovanman²
07-06-2009, 01:54 AM
All I can offer is both engines use cast pistons, so thats something to consider. As for head flow, the newer one is slightly better stock but ported, they are pretty well equal.

bakes
07-06-2009, 01:56 AM
and find some dohc 2.0l cams for it

turbovanman²
07-06-2009, 01:57 AM
and find some dohc 2.0l cams for it

I have some, :eyebrows:

bakes
07-06-2009, 01:58 AM
ME too but im keeping mine

1FastCSX289
07-06-2009, 07:59 AM
Ok, thanks guys. The cast pistons are definately a consideration......ill be taking a step backwards there. But, the SRT stage kits are meant for stock pistons and they put out some crazy power, so I figure as long as my tune is very safe, I "shouldnt" have a problem. I guess if I do, there will always be room to go forged later on.

I could probably pick up those cams cheap at the junkyard, huh?

SebringLX
07-06-2009, 09:47 AM
Yes the head on an '04 PT has some improvements over the head on that '97 Stratus. 04+ 2.4L heads are supposedly all about the same no matter what vehicle they came out of. Lots of people push 400-500 HP to the wheels through the stock 2.4L internals, and they hold up just fine. Tune it well, and it will live long. 600+ has been pushed through them, but that guys motor only lasted a few months at those levels.

There's an SRT-4 with a GT30R on stock bottom end pushing 30psi on 93 octane + meth injection, put down 411whp and 408ft-lbs of torque on a Mustang dyno. Runs 7.49's in the 1/8th.

contraption22
07-06-2009, 10:13 AM
SRT pistons seem to live just about as well as the Mahles that came in TII and 2.5's. It's not the power that kills em, it's knock. The SRT pistons also have a domed crown, which is not ideal for high performance use.

1FastCSX289
07-06-2009, 11:18 PM
There's an SRT-4 with a GT30R on stock bottom end pushing 30psi on 93 octane + meth injection, put down 411whp and 408ft-lbs of torque on a Mustang dyno. Runs 7.49's in the 1/8th.

Thats about what im after. 400 WHP would put a big smile on my face. :)

1FastCSX289
07-06-2009, 11:19 PM
SRT pistons seem to live just about as well as the Mahles that came in TII and 2.5's. It's not the power that kills em, it's knock. The SRT pistons also have a domed crown, which is not ideal for high performance use.

Ill work on a real conservative tune. This motor will need to last a while. :nod:

SoCalCSX
07-06-2009, 11:45 PM
SRT pistons seem to live just about as well as the Mahles that came in TII and 2.5's. It's not the power that kills em, it's knock. The SRT pistons also have a domed crown, which is not ideal for high performance use.


True, but they are still 8.1/1 CR. I thought I read somewhere it was done for better off boost driveability.

The 04 motor is good, comes with stage 1 injectors stock. Won't quite get you to 400whp but will get it running and making some decent power. Stage 2 injectors will get you there and go for under $200 on srtforums. You will need to add some kind of return system though as srt's/pt's were returnless. I've heard good things about the fwdp one from some pt guys and it's relatively cheap compared to others. You will need to get the gas filler splice from agp(i think) so you have somewhere to dump the fuel back. Also you need a fuel rail. The 03's have a fitting on the end you can use for the return system, 04+'s do not.

cordes
07-06-2009, 11:47 PM
Are you dead set on a 2.4? If I were to do a full DOHC motor conversion, I would use a 2.0. As food for thought, 5digits stated that the reason for the oil squirters on the 2.4 pistons in the SRT4 was the higher piston speeds at the upper RPMS. He said it's a huge difference between the two. IIRC he said that the piston speed on a 2.5 at 8600RPM is the same as a 2.0 at 5400RPM.

I have no idea what that would do to you as far as getting a tune which is almost dead on to start working with, or how much more difficult getting all the parts to work with the 2.0 stuff would be though, just throwing out some thoughts.

1FastCSX289
07-06-2009, 11:53 PM
I thought about the 2.0. The problem comes in the budget. I think it would be much more pricey as I would have to buy forged rods and pistons as the stockers wont cut it.

As for the fuel system........does the 2.4 use the same style injectors as the 2.2/2.5's? I was hoping to re-use my 72 pph injectors. What have people done with the return on these swaps?

cordes
07-06-2009, 11:58 PM
I can certainly see going 2.4 on the cost side if you will need all new internals vs. just dropping in a freshened SRT long block.

SoCalCSX
07-06-2009, 11:59 PM
I thought about the 2.0. The problem comes in the budget. I think it would be much more pricey as I would have to buy forged rods and pistons as the stockers wont cut it.

As for the fuel system........does the 2.4 use the same style injectors as the 2.2/2.5's? I was hoping to re-use my 72 pph injectors. What have people done with the return on these swaps?


I know the injectors are physically different, I believe they are the EV something or other type. As far as impedence not sure someone else might have to chime in on that. I would check the swap forum, I think I've read about using TD style injectors and modded TD style rails on theirs.

1FastCSX289
07-07-2009, 12:04 AM
Hmmmmm......has anyone used the SRT rail with 2.2/2.5 injectors?

SoCalCSX
07-07-2009, 12:07 AM
Just checked, newer stuff is high imp.

cordes
07-07-2009, 12:19 AM
Just checked, newer stuff is high imp.

I've been looking and found the same thing. I'm really backwards on all this stuff now.

One thing which I have seen in person was a stratus fuel rail which had new brackets welded onto it so that it would work on a one piece intake. I'm not sure what that info is good for, but perhaps it's a start.

SoCalCSX
07-07-2009, 12:28 AM
I've been looking and found the same thing. I'm really backwards on all this stuff now.

One thing which I have seen in person was a stratus fuel rail which had new brackets welded onto it so that it would work on a one piece intake. I'm not sure what that info is good for, but perhaps it's a start.



Isn't he running standalone? So other than using the old injectors is there any other real reason not to use the newer stuff? Maybe I'm playing devil's advocate but there is a ton more stuff out there for the srt platform and finding the parts I suggested a few posts ago is as easy as popping over to srtforums. Hell, I'll give you $50 for the injectors off the PT motor, it's the going rate and more than I payed for my last set LOL

1FastCSX289
07-07-2009, 08:48 AM
Isn't he running standalone? So other than using the old injectors is there any other real reason not to use the newer stuff? Maybe I'm playing devil's advocate but there is a ton more stuff out there for the srt platform and finding the parts I suggested a few posts ago is as easy as popping over to srtforums. Hell, I'll give you $50 for the injectors off the PT motor, it's the going rate and more than I payed for my last set LOL

Nah.....im not using the stand alone anymore. I went back to stock electronics.

cordes
07-07-2009, 09:44 AM
Nah.....im not using the stand alone anymore. I went back to stock electronics.

Are you just going to run the dist off the head?

1FastCSX289
07-07-2009, 09:58 AM
Are you just going to run the dist off the head?


Yes. I plan on buying all of RBryant's conversion parts.

1FastCSX289
07-07-2009, 10:02 AM
Im really going back and forth on this one, but the more I think about it, the more I realize I need to think.

On the surface, it looks like the PT motor is the way to go for cost. But then I start reading through posts and it seems like there is more that needs to be done as far as mounting the starter and accessories with the PT motor. Ill need to buy a Nippo starter. The older stratus engine will allow me to just bolt up my old starter. ALso, it looks like the stratus accessories will work better than the PT accessories. Also, the front mount from the stratus looks like it would help me out. So, all these little things would add up. With the Stratus I would have the whole car. I could use the pwr steering pump and alternator, (AC if I wanted eventually). Thats all there for my 400 dollar investment. With the PT, all im getting is the engine and everything else would require a junkyard trip and more $$.

AAAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHH!!!!!!:confused2:

cordes
07-07-2009, 10:51 AM
I know a lot of guys don't favor it, but a hybrid motor is pretty cheap if you can weld...

contraption22
07-07-2009, 11:09 AM
I'd go with the Stratus. You can easily upgrade to all the good parts of the Turbo motor, including the oil pump, pan, and filter.

1FastCSX289
07-07-2009, 12:24 PM
I'd go with the Stratus. You can easily upgrade to all the good parts of the Turbo motor, including the oil pump, pan, and filter.


Im leaning that way at the moment. Im supposed to go look at the car tomorrow. The only thing I fear is that its got 133k on it and if the cylinders are out of round, that means upgrading to forged slugs. And I dont think I have the coin for that unless all my parts sell.


A lot of guys say not to go with the turbo pump. Whats the diff?

Vigo
07-07-2009, 02:42 PM
I wouldn't personally worry about cylinder wear at 133k.

I think the stratus parts car is a better deal by far, because you will probably end up using things off of it that you would otherwise have to locate and pay for.

Not to mention, once you have taken everything you want out of the car, you can scrap the rest. The body (minus drivetrain) and the catalytic converter alone will net you back $150 in scrap money.

I bought a 5spd 2.0 stratus for 300 bucks, put the tranny in my neon, sold the motor (260k and running fine, wonder how the cylinders were?) for $100, sold the cat for $42, and sold the body for ~$100. Its hard to lose money on a car that cheap when you're using stuff off it and making most of your money back.

1FastCSX289
07-07-2009, 02:45 PM
I bought a 5spd 2.0 stratus for 300 bucks, put the tranny in my neon, sold the motor (260k and running fine, wonder how the cylinders were?) for $100, sold the cat for $42, and sold the body for ~$100. Its hard to lose money on a car that cheap when you're using stuff off it and making most of your money back.

Kinda what I was thinking......id probably only be into it for a couple hundred by the time I was done parting it out and then selling the scrap. Where do you sell the CAT? To the boneyard?

contraption22
07-07-2009, 02:51 PM
Im leaning that way at the moment. Im supposed to go look at the car tomorrow. The only thing I fear is that its got 133k on it and if the cylinders are out of round, that means upgrading to forged slugs. And I dont think I have the coin for that unless all my parts sell.


A lot of guys say not to go with the turbo pump. Whats the diff?

Judging by my Melling catalog, all the late 2.4's use the same oil pump...

Edit: Scratch that, Melling doesn't have a listing for the Turbo oil pumps.

cordes
07-07-2009, 02:59 PM
Kinda what I was thinking......id probably only be into it for a couple hundred by the time I was done parting it out and then selling the scrap. Where do you sell the CAT? To the boneyard?

Most large JY/scrap operations will buy the cat from you. Parts are getting nothing compared to what they were a year ago, so don't think the cat and scrap value will pay for much of that $400 at all.

SebringLX
07-07-2009, 03:08 PM
You could head over to stratusphere.net to sell a lot of the parts that you don't use off it too if they are in good enough shape. Those guys are always looking for cheap stock replacement interior parts, hoods, trunk lids, doors, etc. I have the same screen name over there and can vouch for ya... I'm pretty well known in that community. :thumb:

If you're building the engine yourself, you'll probably spend less on the forged parts than you would for the PT motor. If you're not building it yourself and going to run into labor costs, well that's another story.

1FastCSX289
07-07-2009, 03:20 PM
Most large JY/scrap operations will buy the cat from you. Parts are getting nothing compared to what they were a year ago, so don't think the cat and scrap value will pay for much of that $400 at all.

I just junked a Dakota pick up and got 175. I figure the stratus might be 100 -150 with no engine, but maybe im dreaming.


You could head over to stratusphere.net to sell a lot of the parts that you don't use off it too if they are in good enough shape. Those guys are always looking for cheap stock replacement interior parts, hoods, trunk lids, doors, etc. I have the same screen name over there and can vouch for ya... I'm pretty well known in that community. :thumb:

If you're building the engine yourself, you'll probably spend less on the forged parts than you would for the PT motor. If you're not building it yourself and going to run into labor costs, well that's another story.


Alright! Sonuds good. Ill be contacting you when its time to part it out (assuming I buy it). I could just make a username over there and if you popped in on the thread to vouch that would be awesome. Thanks for the offer.

I am building the motor myself (minus the machine costs). Do you know of any good sources for internal parts?

cordes
07-07-2009, 03:25 PM
You are doing a lot better than I am. The local place here gives market price which is currently $51/ton.

SebringLX
07-07-2009, 03:47 PM
I just junked a Dakota pick up and got 175. I figure the stratus might be 100 -150 with no engine, but maybe im dreaming.




Alright! Sonuds good. Ill be contacting you when its time to part it out (assuming I buy it). I could just make a username over there and if you popped in on the thread to vouch that would be awesome. Thanks for the offer.

I am building the motor myself (minus the machine costs). Do you know of any good sources for internal parts?

FWD Performance might be able to help you out. I don't see the 2.4L parts listed on their website, but I know they do a lot with SRT-4's, so maybe they can help you out?

Otherwise... $1200 for a complete bottom end rebuild kit here: http://www.howellautomotive.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=212
Seems to be about $100 cheaper than similar rebuild kits from other places. Gives you some options on bore, compression, and bearing sizes too. Pretty close to what you said you would pay for the PT motor too.

contraption22
07-07-2009, 04:06 PM
Forward Motion also has a lot of 2.0/2.4 stuff. Steel and aluminum rods, pistons, hardware, etc.



FWD Performance might be able to help you out. I don't see the 2.4L parts listed on their website, but I know they do a lot with SRT-4's, so maybe they can help you out?

Otherwise... $1200 for a complete bottom end rebuild kit here: http://www.howellautomotive.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=212
Seems to be about $100 cheaper than similar rebuild kits from other places. Gives you some options on bore, compression, and bearing sizes too. Pretty close to what you said you would pay for the PT motor too.

Austrian Dodge
07-07-2009, 05:52 PM
i have all mopar part numbers to convert the oiling system, timing belt and stuff to SRT parts.

beeing you, i'd pick the stratus engine and rebuild it with SRT parts...
most time consuming part imho is fabbing up an intake otherwise with the possibilities you US people have (getting parts for those cars), it's easy ;)

glhs0426
07-07-2009, 05:58 PM
A little buying leverage goes a long way with some of these stock P/N's:

4884247AD piston/rod assembly $103ea list price.

5174612AA connecting rod bearing $8ea list price

4781570AB upgraded timing belt tensioner $98.55 list price. A worthy upgrade.

5114072AA timing covers/belt/tensioner pkg. $204 list price. All the covers along with a new belt and the upgraded tensioner, if you want the covers in place.

PM me about a used a PT pan/oil pickup/oil pump. I have turbo and non turbo

John

t3rse
07-07-2009, 08:40 PM
A 2.4 swap requires more fabrication than a hybrid...side+front motor mounts, TB points at trans so that's fun...and there are a whole lot more things to do. If I did it all again, I would have gone hybrid.

1FastCSX289
07-07-2009, 09:02 PM
i have all mopar part numbers to convert the oiling system, timing belt and stuff to SRT parts.



What is the advantage of converting the oil system to SRT stuff?


A little buying leverage goes a long way with some of these stock P/N's:

4884247AD piston/rod assembly $103ea list price.

5174612AA connecting rod bearing $8ea list price

4781570AB upgraded timing belt tensioner $98.55 list price. A worthy upgrade.

5114072AA timing covers/belt/tensioner pkg. $204 list price. All the covers along with a new belt and the upgraded tensioner, if you want the covers in place.

PM me about a used a PT pan/oil pickup/oil pump. I have turbo and non turbo

John

Man, are the pistons/rods really 100 bucks each? Include rings or no? Might make more sense to go with a forged piston and my T2 rods.

Are these prices discounted with these part #'s? What do you mean by "buying pwr"? I might be interested in that pan and oil pump. Ill keep you in mind. Thanks.


A 2.4 swap requires more fabrication than a hybrid...side+front motor mounts, TB points at trans so that's fun...and there are a whole lot more things to do. If I did it all again, I would have gone hybrid.


The thing I like about the 2.4 swap is that once its done, the parts are cheap and easy to replace. If I melt a head, I can just go to the boneyard and slap another one on. If I smoke a piston, its an SRT piston (which I thought were cheap.....and now I see they are 100 bucks??). I like the whole junkyard hot rodding thing.....I suppose its the same thing with the hybrid, but it seems like a lot of time in work into modding the head and block only to run the risk of damaging them. Really, thats the reason im getting rid of a lot of my expensive parts. I dont want to have to worry about racing and blowing them up. I like the junkyard racing.

CNH320
07-07-2009, 09:07 PM
A 2.4 swap requires more fabrication than a hybrid...side+front motor mounts, TB points at trans so that's fun...and there are a whole lot more things to do. If I did it all again, I would have gone hybrid.

Funny after working on a hybrid setup on my brother's car we said the exact opposite.... LOL

SoCalCSX
07-07-2009, 09:29 PM
Man, are the pistons/rods really 100 bucks each? Include rings or no? Might make more sense to go with a forged piston and my T2 rods.

moparpartsamerica.com, the piston/rod combo's are about $75 each. People say they used to be around $50 each but I havn't seen that price anywhere. I'll see if I can find my list of part numbers and prices I put together for the older 2.4--->SRT 2.4 swap with prices I got from that site. Their prices are pretty good on most of the stuff you will need.

1FastCSX289
07-07-2009, 09:38 PM
moparpartsamerica.com, the piston/rod combo's are about $75 each. People say they used to be around $50 each but I havn't seen that price anywhere. I'll see if I can find my list of part numbers and prices I put together for the older 2.4--->SRT 2.4 swap with prices I got from that site. Their prices are pretty good on most of the stuff you will need.

Thanks man. :thumb:

Edit: Just did some exploring on that site.....NICE! Great prices. Thanks alot.

1FastCSX289
07-07-2009, 09:50 PM
How about the flywheel? Will my fidanza aluminum flywheel bolt to the 2.4 crank? Can I use my old clutch and pressure plate?

I searched around a bit and couldnt find the answer.

SoCalCSX
07-07-2009, 10:06 PM
How about the flywheel? Will my fidanza aluminum flywheel bolt to the 2.4 crank? Can I use my old clutch and pressure plate?

I searched around a bit and couldnt find the answer.

From what I've read yes you can use both.

contraption22
07-07-2009, 10:20 PM
I know you can use a 2.2 flexplate on a 2.4, so the flywheels should bolt up too.

Jack's Dodge
07-07-2009, 10:26 PM
From what I've read yes you can use both.

Truth.

To "help" with the confusion, using a 95-99 2.4L proves less of a hassle from what I have read. Skipped the drama of sourcing a srt intake manifold, since the 2001+ PT/srt have the different bolt patter. Where the 95-99 shares the same bolt pattern of the 1G neon. The 1G neon dohc flows more air that the n/a 2.4L intake manifold, and is easier to find. You can also swap the PT valve train why you are in the yard for a free upgrade there. The hydralic lash adjusters of the 2001+ pt cruiser provides better oil control at higher rpms that the pre 1G dohc neons have.
The 95-99 dohc head also flows better than the pt/srt cylinder head. Hence the reason the dohc 2.0L has "hotter" exhaust cam than the 2.4L. The intake cam between the two are quite similar. The exhaust runner are smaller on the PT head, and the exhaust valves on the pt

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/101/l_93769fbbd3b549b9a2b8f8359fc253dc.jpg

The exhaust runner are smaller on the PT head, and the exhaust valves on the pt head are about 2mm smaller than a 2.0L dohc head.

1FastCSX289
07-07-2009, 11:52 PM
so the best combo according to you would be the 97 2.4L out of the stratus with a neon intake? The 2.0 intake man fits the 2.4L???

SoCalCSX
07-08-2009, 12:07 AM
so the best combo according to you would be the 97 2.4L out of the stratus with a neon intake? The 2.0 intake man fits the 2.4L???

Yeah heads are the same, they just flip the cam gears around for whichever block it goes on. I just got rid of a 2.4 caravan manifold which curves up kind of like a PT one I would have donated to the cause lol. I was gonna hack it up and do a plenum on it anyways....oh well.

For extra bonus points you can send a bare head to indy cylinder heads and they'll CNC port it for like $400:eyebrows:

glhs0426
07-08-2009, 12:28 AM
List price is just that---LIST PRICE. "Buying power" would be finding a parts guy selling you parts wholesale, or finding someone with a wholesale account that will pass the savings on to you. Figure $75-80 ea for the pistons.

On cylinder heads, stock for stock, the old oval exhaust port ('00 and earlier) flows slightly better on the exhaust side. The oval exhaust port head has a 1mm larger exhaust valve.

Port the cylinder head and things change quite a bit. Wallace is doing some R&D on both cylinder heads and the late head will outflow the early head on the exhaust side with equal amounts of porting and stock valve sizes. The difference grows quite a bit if the late head picks up 1mm larger exhaust valves.

Neons have gone 10's with a stock top end and a stock 2.0L DOHC intake.

The only reason I prefer the PT or SRT oiling system is the oil filter location. There are two different pumps when dealing with this style setup. One style was used on PT's from '01-'02. The second style was used on the SRT4 and '03-'08 PT's. The later pump is the turbo pump and is just a higher volume pump. It is identified by a large "T" on the outside of the pump.

John

t3rse
07-08-2009, 02:40 AM
Truth.
The 95-99 dohc head also flows better than the pt/srt cylinder head. Hence the reason the dohc 2.0L has "hotter" exhaust cam than the 2.4L. [/IMG]


Prove it. What is mass flow anyways? Which is more important, intake or exhaust? Just because my dick is bigger doesn't mean your's doesn't work better. Got any dyno numbers to show that a late model head is worse than an early head? I thought so.....

glhs0426
07-08-2009, 08:01 AM
The '97 2.4L will swap better than the PT turbo engine because there is a little more room on the back of the block for your starter. The late block has a different oil drain setup cast into the rear of the block.

Stratus accessory drive system is laid out more like a stock 2.2/2.5 accessory drive system.

Use the $400 car for all it's worth.

1FastCSX289
07-08-2009, 09:41 AM
List price is just that---LIST PRICE. "Buying power" would be finding a parts guy selling you parts wholesale, or finding someone with a wholesale account that will pass the savings on to you. Figure $75-80 ea for the pistons.

John

Gotcha. That site provided earlier seems to have some nice prices. I also found a set of used pistons and rods for 100 bucks shipped. So, I am most likely going to do that as long as they are in good shape.


The '97 2.4L will swap better than the PT turbo engine because there is a little more room on the back of the block for your starter. The late block has a different oil drain setup cast into the rear of the block.

Stratus accessory drive system is laid out more like a stock 2.2/2.5 accessory drive system.

Use the $400 car for all it's worth.


I think im gonna pick it up tonight.:thumb:

crazymadbastard
07-08-2009, 10:09 AM
For extra bonus points you can send a bare head to indy cylinder heads and they'll CNC port it for like $400:eyebrows:

that is interesting...

Vigo
07-08-2009, 01:20 PM
scrap price here is currently $4.5/100lbs. Figure a 1g stratus without drivetrain weighs 2500 /100 = 25 X 4.5 = ~112$

The cat should be ~40. I found out where to sell my cats just by talking to the junk guys who go around picking up scrap and dead cars. Of course if they think they can make money off you they want to buy your stuff for less and be the middleman making money, so you might run into that depending on who/how you ask.

SebringLX
07-08-2009, 02:01 PM
When I bought my OEM SRT-4 internals in '06, I paid $300 for pistons, rods, rings, etc. brand new.

I have a bunch of 2.4L parts from my car ('04 Sebring Sedan) when I went turbo if you think you can use them. Car had 40,000 miles on it when I took this stuff out.

Fuel rail.
Pistons and rods (NA 9.6:1 cr).
Ballance shaft assembly.
Intake manifold (plastic)
Throttle body
Exhaust manifold
MAP Sensor
Motor mounts
Down pipe (has cat on it)

Probably a few other things too but that's all I can think of right now. Just sitting around in boxes. I think I have some cheap DSM BOV, misc fittings, hoses, pipes, tubes and couplers too.

Austrian Dodge
07-08-2009, 04:12 PM
from what i've read through neons.org most of them convert to the srt oiling system (oil pump and pan) because it flows more.

personally i think it's a good insurance running an oil pump that was design for a turbo application.

anyways, here are the partnumbers for timing belt conversion and oiling system.
-) Mopar Water Pump (Part# 4667660AE) + Gasket (Part# 4667663)
-) Mopar Idler Pulley (Part# 4777394)
-) Mopar Timing Belt Tensioneer (Part# 4884320AA)
-) Mopar SRT4 Oil Pump (should be Part# 4884390AB or Part# 4777955AA)
-) Mopar SRT4 Oil Pump Pickup/Screen (Part# 4792304AC)
-) Mopar SRT4 Oil Pan (should be Part# 4777991AA)
-) Mopar Oil Pan Gasket (Part# 4777994AA)

and make sure you'll get the srt bearings!
i'd also recommend PT lifters and 2.7 v6 rockers if you're planning to run on the higher rpm side

t3rse
07-08-2009, 05:41 PM
You'll find you don't need the revs. JT is having problems with his older 2.4 and SRT oil pump, with excessive pressure and seepage.

1FastCSX289
07-08-2009, 09:05 PM
Just got back with my new 97 Stratus. Its actually in pretty darn good shape for 400 bucks. Actually, I paid 200 b/c he didnt have the title. He said he was applying for a new one. So, I said id give him the other 200 when the title comes......hopefully it wont come....he he he. Engine starts right up, no noises or anything. Oil looks relatively clean for 133k. Looks like a good starting place for a project. Hopefully, I can part some of this thing out and make some of the money back on the engine.

Im gonna be going the mega-budget route on this thing......find as many used parts and fab as much as I can, but take my time and make it nice. Im looking forward to it. :eyebrows:

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=15871&stc=1&d=1247101489

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=15872&stc=1&d=1247101496

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=15873&stc=1&d=1247101496

Aries_Turbo
07-08-2009, 10:22 PM
killer dude. especially for 400$

Brian

Jack's Dodge
07-08-2009, 11:35 PM
so the best combo according to you would be the 97 2.4L out of the stratus with a neon intake? The 2.0 intake man fits the 2.4L???

For the intake side. the dohc intake manifold flows better than the 2.4L, and is less than an srt intake manifold.

t3rse:
Let's look at this from a logical point of view. Seems pretty obvious to everything that the majority of srt owners have all considered the 2.0L cams as an upgrade. The camshaft chart clearly state the drastic difference between the 99 dohc cams and all 2.4L cams. The dohc valve seats are also about 2mm larger than the pt. Is this earth shattering? No. The 2.4L head can be ported to match the 2.0L (or better) but why not start with the better head? Same as paying $1600 for a S.M. head when you can get a dohc head and convert for less with better mpg's. From a turbo perspective, it all depends if you want to get the last bit of flow out of your build. Flow = power of course. I find it highly unlikely that a difference of 2mm will show on a dyno, but the variance in cam profiles does. Do not bother trying to prove me wrong, because this info is correct.

A windage tray is a wise move with the large oil pan of the 2.4L. The stock casing for the balance shafts acts as a windage tray for dummies, but you should seriously consider some oil control. A big reason why many 2.4L swaps end up with spun rod bearings. Along with them needed to rev to 7k...

glhs0426
07-08-2009, 11:42 PM
You'll find you don't need the revs. JT is having problems with his older 2.4 and SRT oil pump, with excessive pressure and seepage.

I wonder how the factory kept the pressure down on the non turbo PT's from '03 to '08? The "T" or turbo oil pump was used on all PT's from '03-'08 along with all the SRT4's. A non turbo engine did not have oil squirters or a turbo to suck up the extra volume.

One example of a nice well built car vs. 100,000 plus cars doesn't make any sense. Something else is going on with JT's car. It may be the oil pump, but I wouldn't put a blanket condemnation on the high volume oil pump.

If someone wanted the PT style pump but not high volume there is always the '01-'02 PT pump. It uses the same pan and pickup screen.

John

t3rse
07-09-2009, 02:45 AM
I'm not making a blanket statement. I don't post my whores on here like eveyone else...I figure stuff out. However, I have read that this is a common problem for neon folk going the same route. How about checking out other forums? My oil pressure is pretty high with 15w40 oil in an SRT motor, but I have no seal problem, and I have used this oil in turbo cars for a long time, and I plan on sticking with it no matter what sort of BS marketing hype I get fed. It has done me very well.

I still stick by what I said. If you want to go the easy route with a direct swap...it may be easy. I had to go 2.4, massive TB and i/c piping, w/a i/c, 568 trans, and I don't even know where else to go, because my car is only as original as the sheet metal and unibody. 1.5 years to get her running was a -----, but then again this isn't a long time on a college student's budget and schedule. Maybe now that I am done and can accomplish things faster, but in all reality there was far more fabrication than money involved. Hell, I got my motor for $500 (03 SRT-4 @ 13k miles...patience young padawan)....

Remember Sean, that the last time my car ran before the recent iteration, was merely two months after I met you in person...and I typically spend 4 to 8 hours thinking or working daily (depending or work, or then, school schedules).

Austrian Dodge
07-09-2009, 03:06 AM
well, i can't tell because my 2.4 still is not ready to start. i removed the balance shaft assembly and am working on something like a windage tray and/or baffle.

i've read that people have good success using the srt pump and others - like JT - have problems with higher oil pressure.
from what i know, he doesn't have oil squirters...so that may also be a part of his problem.

maybe DJ (turboshad) can chime in, he used the srt pump and pan on his old style 2.4 engine.

1FastCSX289
07-09-2009, 07:59 AM
killer dude. especially for 400$

Brian

Not bad......its got some issues, but all I care about is the engine, but the whole car was cheaper than I found the most inexpensive engine at the boneyard.


Remember Sean, that the last time my car ran before the recent iteration, was merely two months after I met you in person...and I typically spend 4 to 8 hours thinking or working daily (depending or work, or then, school schedules).

I plan on having it up and running for next SDAC. I move fast. Plus it helps to be able to spend big chunks of your work day wrenching.......and having 20 kids to help out can be a useful......but then again, it can be a hinderance too....he he he.

500 bucks for that SRT motor, eh? Did you rebuild it or install as-is? The fact that youre working on an L-body makes things 10X more difficult too.


i've read that people have good success using the srt pump and others - like JT - have problems with higher oil pressure.
from what i know, he doesn't have oil squirters...so that may also be a part of his problem.

maybe DJ (turboshad) can chime in, he used the srt pump and pan on his old style 2.4 engine.


Well, seems to me that if there are people who have trouble with the PT oil system and others that have run a non-turbo system with success, it makes more sense to stay stock, especially with budget in mind. I would be willing to bet that the high oil pressure comes from lack of oil squirters.

What about drilling oil squirters into an NA block????

Aries_Turbo
07-09-2009, 08:43 AM
i wouldnt worry about the oil squirters.

i would make sure to get the performance iteration of the rod and main bearings though. of course youll have to get SRT bearings for the rods, and 2.4L bearings for the crank but clevite makes two different hardness levels for these bearings. one is turbo friendly, the other is not.

Brian

1FastCSX289
07-09-2009, 08:45 AM
i wouldnt worry about the oil squirters.

i would make sure to get the performance iteration of the rod and main bearings though. of course youll have to get SRT bearings for the rods, and 2.4L bearings for the crank but clevite makes two different hardness levels for these bearings. one is turbo friendly, the other is not.

Brian

Ill look into that for sure. Right now, im on hold until my parts sell. :(

Aries_Turbo
07-09-2009, 09:25 AM
yeah i understand :)

brian

SebringLX
07-09-2009, 09:51 AM
Don't worry about the oil squirters. I am not running them on my car. I've been pushing over 20psi from a Hahn Super 20G through my NA 2.4L w/ OEM SRT internals for almost 2 years now. I've even been running E85 for the last couple months.

I'm using my stock NA oil pump too, no problems. I know the turbo 2.4L's actually flow a little too much oil. Most people add a restrictor to the head. The old NA 2.4's use to come with one, there's even a factory part number for it.

Definately get a windage tray w/ crank scraper and baffle if you are going to run without the balance shaft assembly.

It's almost shame that you are pulling the engine out of that Stratus and getting rid of it. That car looks like it's in pretty good shape. There's only a handful of 1st gen turbo Stratus running around (outside of Mexico that is). Most of them are pretty weak and not all that well put together. I'd kind of rather see you put the engine back in that car with the turbo on it. :eyebrows:

Aries_Turbo
07-09-2009, 10:04 AM
yeah sean, how bad is that car underneath? interior? before you part it out, lemme take a look at it. i should be over later today anyway.

Brian

contraption22
07-09-2009, 10:33 AM
Here is a nifty article from Engine Rebuilder about the 2.4 history and changes.

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/3542/rebuilding_the_chrysler_24l.aspx

1FastCSX289
07-09-2009, 12:07 PM
Don't worry about the oil squirters. I am not running them on my car. I've been pushing over 20psi from a Hahn Super 20G through my NA 2.4L w/ OEM SRT internals for almost 2 years now. I've even been running E85 for the last couple months.

I'm using my stock NA oil pump too, no problems. I know the turbo 2.4L's actually flow a little too much oil. Most people add a restrictor to the head. The old NA 2.4's use to come with one, there's even a factory part number for it.

Definately get a windage tray w/ crank scraper and baffle if you are going to run without the balance shaft assembly.

It's almost shame that you are pulling the engine out of that Stratus and getting rid of it. That car looks like it's in pretty good shape. There's only a handful of 1st gen turbo Stratus running around (outside of Mexico that is). Most of them are pretty weak and not all that well put together. I'd kind of rather see you put the engine back in that car with the turbo on it. :eyebrows:

Yea, I think im sticking with stock oil. Do you have any pics of your windage tray set up and crank scraper?


yeah sean, how bad is that car underneath? interior? before you part it out, lemme take a look at it. i should be over later today anyway.

Brian

The rocker panel on the right side is rotted and theres some dings and dents. It also need ball joints, brakes, exhaust, and probably a steering rack from the feel of it. It could be saved but it would be a labor of love......and |I dont have much love for the stratus.


Here is a nifty article from Engine Rebuilder about the 2.4 history and changes.

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/3542/rebuilding_the_chrysler_24l.aspx

Nice article. I browsed it, but ill be referring back to that, for sure. Thanks.

turboshad
07-09-2009, 12:26 PM
maybe DJ (turboshad) can chime in, he used the srt pump and pan on his old style 2.4 engine.

That's kind of funny since I just noticed this thread.

Here's my "opinion" since I can't say how much inarguable fact is in it. Once again you're looking at a "more than one way to skin a cat" scenario.

You need to look at what you want out of your system and you confidence in your ability to tune it when it is done. If you are very confident in your tuning and feel there is a slim chance of making a mistake then there is no problem throwing a tonne of boost at cast pistons. It just comes down to that one little slip where cast vs forged will be the difference of "time to build the engine again" or a simple "oops". If you are fine with cast then I think the most cost effective will probably be the PT GT or and SRT4 engine. Even though I bought my engine for $100, by the end of it I have closer to $3000 into it with forged pistons, eagle rods, SRT4 cooling, oiling and timing, head studs, main girdle studs, bearings and all the appropriate machining to do it right. For myself I wanted a forged setup so the machining was inevitable and the SRT4 conversion parts were by choice. Both engines will need mounts made and will pose more or less the same transmission headaches.........I mean challanges.

The SRT4 oil pump and water pump both flow more than the stock stratus pump. Cooling wise on my trip to SDAC (~1950 miles for those who don't know) I ran a solid 180-185F temp regardless of weather or traffic conditions using a stock neon twin fan rad setup. So I would say the water pump is doing it's job though I can't say wether the stock stratus pump would have done the same job or not. Like JT, I do have high oil pressure though at this point I'm not prepared to say wether it is a problem or not. Using Mobil1 10W30 it sits at 30-35 psi hot (1100 RPM) and cruising at 2750 RPM (~70mph) I have 60-65psi. When cold it will easily peg the 100psi gauge which is the same with JT. Talking to JT at SDAC, he said his oil problem was in the turbo drain and he has since fixed it. I personally do have a leak I am trying to track down which is at the rear pass coner by the oil pump passages but I'm not prepared to say it is due to high pressure.

I don't have oil squirters and am not convinved they are essential even though they don't hurt. The comment made about squirters being needed with higher piston speeds is not correct since from my understanding their purpose is to cool the center of the piston and the max piston velocity will not effect this. If it is looked at as a pin lubrication aid then maybe, but without doing any calcs I can't see the angular acceleration or velocity of the rod vs. pin being that much more that squirters are now need. Not to mention this would be the same for turbo or NA and obviously the NA version does not need squirters.

I did make a windage tray and oil pan baffles but once again I don't think this is neccesarily mandatory. It is a good idea but I also ran my 2.5 for years with no balance shafts or any sort of windage or baffles and I know I wasn't alone there. But like it was mentioned, the higher reving will appreciate more oil control and the last thing you want to do is run out of oil at 7500 RPM which it should pull to nicely. For the head I can't remember if I used the 8V restirctor in the block or if the stratus block also came with a restrictor. I welded mine up and drilled a slightly smaller hole. I do have a lifter tick but I haven't dived into it far enough to see if it is because I'm not getting enough oil to the head or it is just a typically loud dodge lifter. Just something to keep in mind. Either way keeping the stock restrictor in the block is a good idea.

When I first got the car runningI had 2.0 cams in it and was happy though I think with some cam tuning there were some real gains to be had. This spring I had the cam bolts off and made a rookie mistake of not torqueing them properly which resulted in a sheered locating dowel on the intake cam. I swapped in a 2.4 intake and the boost dropped considerably and I had to redo a bunch of the fuel table which was now rich. The discalmer on the fuel is that I did replace my 89 style 255 lph pump with the newer SRT4 style 255 pump and I didn't recheck my pressure so that may have bumped up a tad due to the newer pump. I'm assuming the boost drop is from the added overlap and I haven't had time to play with the gears to see what decreasing the overlap will do for me. I'm at a crossroads trying to figure out if I should put another 2.0 cam in and start from there or continue with the 2/2.4 combo. Currently, at a stock "0" setup on the gears I like the full 2.0 setup from a feel standpoint but I don't know which would produce better numbers when tuned.

My whole setup is quite fresh and there is lots of tuning and fiddling to be done to get it to it's potential so I'm sorry I don't have a whole lot of solid info. But for now this is what I have experienced and is why I'm calling it my opinion. In the end you just have to decide how your cat should be skinned.

DJ

PS, sorry for the essay.

SebringLX
07-09-2009, 12:50 PM
Yea, I think im sticking with stock oil. Do you have any pics of your windage tray set up and crank scraper?

I don't know if I have a pic of it going on the motor, but this is it here: http://www.dcrsrt.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=37

It was a relatively new product when I bought it, and there weren't any pics available back then. I was a little shocked after I got it. It's well built, but it really looks like something anyone could build from a handful of parts from any hardware store. I'm sure it's not worth the $250 they charge for it though.

t3rse
07-09-2009, 12:54 PM
I tore it down, but everything was good as new, so back together and in she went...from the feel of it, it seems faster now at 10# (current min) than before at 18# (previous min)

DJ: I have a leak as well, that I believe to be a bad weld in the turbo oil return...its just not bad enough to fix quite yet.

turboshad
07-09-2009, 01:18 PM
DJ: I have a leak as well, that I believe to be a bad weld in the turbo oil return...its just not bad enough to fix quite yet.

Starting to get off topic but not really since it refers to making an oil drain if you end up going with a stratus block. I found when I welded the aluminum fitting into the pan it warped the taper. JIC, or AN fittings are very sensitive to the 37deg taper since it is this exact match between the two fittings that seals it. I ended up having to teflon the threads and then silicone around the swivel to stop a leak there. Also it warped the pan a bit in the heat effected area of the weld so I also had to slicone the pan gasket in the same area.

DJ

Austrian Dodge
07-09-2009, 03:33 PM
What about drilling oil squirters into an NA block????


definitely possible!
see the attached pics for reference - the last one shows the original SRT-4 block with squirters.

on a '96 block you have to mill the block a little and then drill the holes, i think all '99+ blocks already have added material (found some pics on neons.org) were you can clearly see were those squirters are located.

i should have my block ('96 caravan) ready within the next 4 weeks to get it machined to run squirters. i'll take as much pics as i can, and will post them.

decided to run them, because i'm road racing and imho the little extra insurance is worth the few €

Aries_Turbo
07-09-2009, 08:00 PM
It's almost shame that you are pulling the engine out of that Stratus and getting rid of it. That car looks like it's in pretty good shape. There's only a handful of 1st gen turbo Stratus running around (outside of Mexico that is). Most of them are pretty weak and not all that well put together. I'd kind of rather see you put the engine back in that car with the turbo on it. :eyebrows:

i saw the car today. engine runs smooth. body on the car looks great in the pics, its pretty rusty in real life. rocker holes, hood rotting out at the edge, etc. any car in NY gets TRASHED by salt pretty quickly if driven in the winter. ive seen 2003+ cars with rot holes already in NY.

Brian

SebringLX
07-10-2009, 09:18 AM
i saw the car today. engine runs smooth. body on the car looks great in the pics, its pretty rusty in real life. rocker holes, hood rotting out at the edge, etc. any car in NY gets TRASHED by salt pretty quickly if driven in the winter. ive seen 2003+ cars with rot holes already in NY.

Brian

Ahh icky. How was the interior though? Interior looked pretty clean in the pics. I'm sure he can part out the interior and make a few $$$.

Aries_Turbo
07-10-2009, 02:42 PM
interior is ok. it needs a good cleaning.

brian

turbovanman²
07-10-2009, 06:19 PM
Here is a nifty article from Engine Rebuilder about the 2.4 history and changes.

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/3542/rebuilding_the_chrysler_24l.aspx

Should be in the KC.

Nice note on the oil pump, turbo and N/A are the same-


2003-2006:

When Chrysler designed the turbo motor, the oil pump was upgraded to provide 25 percent more oil for the engine because of the turbo and the “oil squirters.” This pump is part number 4884390AB, and it has “4390” cast on the inside of the pump housing. It’s used for all the turbo and non-turbo engines in the PT Cruiser from ’03 through ’06.






I don't have oil squirters and am not convinved they are essential even though they don't hurt. The comment made about squirters being needed with higher piston speeds is not correct since from my understanding their purpose is to cool the center of the piston and the max piston velocity will not effect this. If it is looked at as a pin lubrication aid then maybe, but without doing any calcs I can't see the angular acceleration or velocity of the rod vs. pin being that much more that squirters are now need. Not to mention this would be the same for turbo or NA and obviously the NA version does not need squirters.



I think they help big time with detonation control and help the piston live, especially if your running a cast piston.

I feel piston speed has nothing to do with it.

jckrieger
07-10-2009, 10:16 PM
Piston oil squirters cool the crown of the piston as was said earlier, no the skirts. The squirters definitely help with detonation control, and are probably at least part of the reason the SRT4 guys can make around 400hp on pump gas.

turbovanman²
07-11-2009, 04:28 PM
Piston oil squirters cool the crown of the piston as was said earlier, no the skirts. The squirters definitely help with detonation control, and are probably at least part of the reason the SRT4 guys can make around 400hp on pump gas.

We have them too, ;)

Austrian Dodge
07-12-2009, 05:15 AM
correct, if you look closely on TII rods, there's a little hole....every crank rotation when the holes on the crank journal, the bearing and the rod journal line up, oil is squirtet upwards to cool the piston crown ;)

jckrieger
07-15-2009, 11:34 PM
I never looked that closely. That's pretty cool.

cordes
07-15-2009, 11:36 PM
correct, if you look closely on TII rods, there's a little hole....every crank rotation when the holes on the crank journal, the bearing and the rod journal line up, oil is squirtet upwards to cool the piston crown ;)

I knew there was the hole, but I didn't realize that was what it was for. That's neat.

pauly_no_van
07-19-2009, 12:16 PM
I always thought that hole was for oiling wrist pin, hmm......
This is an interesting thread/build, more pics? :)

jckrieger
07-19-2009, 05:24 PM
I always thought that hole was for oiling wrist pin, hmm......
This is an interesting thread/build, more pics? :)

Ditto. I'm not sure pressurized oil ever reaches that hole. Only way it could get oil is if the big end was drilled, and I don't think that's the case.

1FastCSX289
07-19-2009, 06:28 PM
I always thought that hole was for oiling wrist pin, hmm......
This is an interesting thread/build, more pics? :)

No....no pics yet. I havent done anything except pull the old 2.2 out and sell a bunch of parts. Funds are coming together though, so im gonna yank the 2.4 soon and send it over to the machine shop. Ill probably be buying the header soon so I can start mocking things up in the engine bay to make sure it all fits.

Aries_Turbo
07-19-2009, 09:41 PM
do the SRT rods have the little hole that aims up like the T2 rods?

Brian

1FastCSX289
07-19-2009, 10:47 PM
do the SRT rods have the little hole that aims up like the T2 rods?

Brian

Id have to look. Ill try to remember to check tomorrow.

quantum
07-20-2009, 08:02 AM
do the SRT rods have the little hole that aims up like the T2 rods?

Brian

I don't think they do because the oil squirters are in the block on the SRT motors, but I may be wrong.

turboshad
07-20-2009, 05:59 PM
Id have to look. Ill try to remember to check tomorrow.

According to this pic they do. The top is a NA neon and the bottom is the SRT4 taken from this thread. http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?t=195591

http://hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/113_0309_srt_8_z.jpg

turbovanman²
07-20-2009, 07:46 PM
Ditto. I'm not sure pressurized oil ever reaches that hole. Only way it could get oil is if the big end was drilled, and I don't think that's the case.

The big end is drilled as is the bearing, so yes, pressurized oil is shot out of that hole, :thumb:

Aries_Turbo
07-20-2009, 10:04 PM
when looking at the small hole, (and not the crank at the same time so i may be an idiot here ;)) it looks like it just sprays the thrust surface of the bore where the piston pushes.

Brian

glhs0426
07-20-2009, 10:35 PM
when looking at the small hole, (and not the crank at the same time so i may be an idiot here ;)) it looks like it just sprays the thrust surface of the bore where the piston pushes.

Brian

That is exactly what I thought. The piston squirters are a new addition. I forget the exact tension, but there is a spring inside the squirter that retains oil pressure and will not spray oil until pressure exceeds something like 25-30 psi.

John

contraption22
07-21-2009, 08:56 AM
when looking at the small hole, (and not the crank at the same time so i may be an idiot here ;)) it looks like it just sprays the thrust surface of the bore where the piston pushes.

Brian

I think you are correct.